User avatar
rotating14
Topic Author
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:54 pm

New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:32 pm

So I stumbled upon this article this morning and wanted to share it with you folks. Opinions?


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...n-767-for-freighter-market-412913/
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:39 pm

People in the 757 replacement thread are thinking that a 767-200 and -300 revival makes sense but at 2.5 per month it doesn't sound like the facility is up for it  

This is good news for the freighter program. I do expect further orders from Fedex and UPS.

tortugamon
 
32andBelow
Posts: 3967
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:48 pm

Will someone copy the article over?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26307
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:09 pm

I know when Boeing moved the 767 FAL to it's new location they designed it to support a rate of up to three planes per month, so good to see they feel there are future orders in the pipeline (I agree FedEx and UPS will order a fair bit more each) to support a 2 to 2.5 monthly rate.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6357
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 2):
Will someone copy the article over?

Not a good idea...

2. Copyrights and Advertising

a. Copyrighted material from other websites, newspapers, magazines and journals are not allowed to be posted. You are permitted to post a summary of an article or quote several lines of it and a link to the full story, but not the full article. Violations of this policy will result in the deletion of your post or thread.

Source: https://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/rules.main?confirm=no
 
User avatar
American 767
Posts: 4393
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:27 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:23 pm

The 300ER in passenger version is still being offered, so as long as the 300ERF is still being built Boeing will still advertise its 300ER as available even if they don't think they will get any more orders.

Ben Soriano
Ben Soriano
 
764
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:35 pm

I'm just wondering here - and hopefully this is complete nonsense - but is the CASM be on a 763 in 2-4-2 config? I know that some infamous European carrier used to (or still) fly them like and although I was always sure this wouldn't spread, we have seen a recent trend to squeeze in unprecedented seat counts into each row on other aircraft. So what are the odds of some carriers (not speculating on which ones) creating a demand for passenger 763s just to fly them in a ultra high density fashion?
 
User avatar
rotating14
Topic Author
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:54 pm

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:41 pm

Most interesting is that the 767 could be a likely candidate for the MOM aircraft, even though carriers are seeking a NB with more seats and more range.

Quote:
"We think it's a viable programme for decades to come," says Brad Zaback, Boeing's vice-president and general manager for the 767 programme

Moreover, Boeing's middle-of-the-market concept – now sized somewhere between a 757-300 and 767-200 – could be nearly a decade away from entry into service for the passenger model. The freighter version may not appear for several years beyond that.

So, for the foreseeable future, the 767 remains Boeing’s premier offering in the medium-sized freighter market, where it competes with the much larger Airbus A330-300F and conversions of older A300-600s and 767s.

"There's not a lot of choice [in that area of the market]," Zaback says. "[For the future] we have our middle-of-the-market studies. That will take care of that kind of market. Until then, we still have the [767]."
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 6357
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 7):
So, for the foreseeable future, the 767 remains Boeing’s premier offering in the medium-sized freighter market, where it competes with the much larger Airbus A330-300F and conversions of older A300-600s and 767s.

What about the A330-200F?
 
User avatar
rotating14
Topic Author
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:54 pm

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 8):

It's still being sold. TK just bought 4 more recently . I believe that the A330 is only offered on the 200 frame, not the 300.
 
User avatar
hilram
Posts: 732
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:12 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 9):

That is correct, and it is the only freighter mentioned on Airbus' website - although in two versions: A330-200 F and A330-200 P2F (Passenger to Freighter conversion).

I do not know how much bigger an A330-200 is compared to a Boeing 767-300, but Boeing meant that the smaller size played to the 767's advantage in the USAF Tanker competition.
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26307
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:28 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 10):
I do not know how much bigger an A330-200 is compared to a Boeing 767-300...

About 8% more payload volume and up to 30% more payload weight at similar design ranges.
 
UA444
Posts: 2781
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:49 pm

For those that want to read the whole article, just google "Boeing 767" and In the news section you'll see the article and it will let you read the whole thing.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting 764 (Reply 6):
I'm just wondering here - and hopefully this is complete nonsense - but is the CASM be on a 763 in 2-4-2 config? I know that some infamous European carrier used to (or still) fly them like and although I was always sure this wouldn't spread, we have seen a recent trend to squeeze in unprecedented seat counts into each row on other aircraft. So what are the odds of some carriers (not speculating on which ones) creating a demand for passenger 763s just to fly them in a ultra high density fashion?

If Boeing used the thinner insulation technology used on the 787, they could thin the walls of the 767 similar to what's being done on the 777X and be able to add in another few inches of cabin space to make 2-4-2 a little more comfortable.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:57 am

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 13):
If Boeing used the thinner insulation technology used on the 787, they could thin the walls of the 767 similar to what's being done on the 777X and be able to add in another few inches of cabin space to make 2-4-2 a little more comfortable.

I personally like the idea. At 8-abreast currently the seat is at least 16.5 inches wide. So Boeing would need to take out .5 inches per seat or 4" out of the sidewalls to make 17" per seat feasible and in-line with 737s and 747s. Though the aisles would still be small. The 762 would be close to 220 seats in two-class configuration but most likely there would be three class with Y+ so the numbers would be smaller.

Without the seat modifications it was posited that the 763 cost about 24% per seat more than the A320/737neo which are some difficult economics to work around unless this neo exceeded their range which is only expected to grow. Which of course it would but it would limit the business case.

I would think that it would need new engines, which there currently is not one, a new wing - which would be expensive, and possibly a new fuse but at the very least fuse thinning which I suspect is not easy.

I honestly would love to see the numbers as I don't think its outrageous but I am not optimistic.

tortugamon

http://leehamnews.com/2014/05/26/can...-cheap-767-300er-replace-the-757w/
 
User avatar
ATA L1011
Posts: 1311
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:47 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:07 am

Quoting hilram (Reply 10):
I do not know how much bigger an A330-200 is compared to a Boeing 767-300, but Boeing meant that the smaller size played to the 767's advantage in the USAF Tanker competition.

The USAF tanker is based on the even smaller 767-200ER not the -300. Its much larger internal dimensions but similar exterior dimensions make it a great choice to replace the 707 based Tankers etc etc, besides being much more efficient  
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2157
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:20 am

"So, for the foreseeable future, the 767 remains Boeing’s premier offering in the medium-sized freighter market, where it competes with the much larger Airbus A330-300F and conversions of older A300-600s and 767s."

So Flightglobal thinks there's an A330-300F? I expected more from them.

Quoting hilram (Reply 10):
I do not know how much bigger an A330-200 is compared to a Boeing 767-300, but Boeing meant that the smaller size played to the 767's advantage in the USAF Tanker competition.

Regarding the tanker competition, it was just politics. Airbus won that contract fair and square the first time around. But that's another discussion. Good to see the 767 live on.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:37 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 16):
Regarding the tanker competition, it was just politics. Airbus won that contract fair and square the first time around. But that's another discussion. Good to see the 767 live on.

Not really. Airbus got the USAF to change the criteria in the middle of the competition. The 767 fits in the hangers and ramp space built for the KC-135, and the A330F does not.
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:57 am

The KC-46 is the key here, as it guarantees 179 frames and a decade of assembly. This makes further investments into the FAL worthwhile, which will help reduce manufacturing costs for a program that has already more than paid for itself (the commercial part that is). It should be easy to alternate airline or freighter 767's with KC-46's, I'm sure that Boeing is setting up the FAL that way. The long-term guarantee of the KC-46 also makes further small investments into the airplane worthwhile. I don't expect anything huge, but minor aero tweaks, systems upgrades, etc. The CF6 already benefits from its wide installed base for PIPs. And maybe PW even thinks of PIPing the PW4062 some day too.
 
User avatar
hilram
Posts: 732
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:12 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:17 am

Now that Boeing already has the amended certificate for the 767-2C - with new avionics - basically a B787 cockpit... How much would it cost to come up with a passenger version of this?

I think the one thing holding that back would be the outdated engines. And if slapping new engines on was a cheap investment, I think they would have done it already.

With new engines, paired with Avaiation Partners Winglets the 767-200 and -300 could have interesting economics.
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
justloveplanes
Posts: 985
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:38 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:47 pm

It does get one to thinking. MoM 767.

An extra seat via 8 abreast is 10-15% more revenue?

What about other ideas.....

a) Al-Li Fuselage?
b) GEnx2's?
c) Weight savings (More CFRP?)
d) New CFRP wing?

How heavy and big is the GEnx2 compared to the CF6(?) that is in place now? Is there clearance for the bigger engine? If not is there room for bigger landing gear?

I shudder taking the thing to 8 abreast when it is already the most comfortable economy ride in the sky (caveat - I haven't flown an A380).

I would hope the new engines wouldn't be so big a deal. The probably can pick the engines as the biggest bang for the buck. I guess 737 avionics for from the new tanker too. Not sure why the tanker isn't using the GEnx2's. Maybe Boeing can get the USAF to do a few of those.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26307
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:44 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 19):
Now that Boeing already has the amended certificate for the 767-2C - with new avionics - basically a B787 cockpit... How much would it cost to come up with a passenger version of this?

I don't think the economics would pencil out compared to the 767-300ER, which is why Boeing and the USAF have only been shopping the 767-2C as a commercial freighter as it is more closely-aligned in capacity and payload to the A300 and (especially) A310 than the 763F is.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:48 pm

Will the 767F take two LD-3 containers side by side on the main deck? Or do they require a unique container because of the narrower fuselage?
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26307
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:56 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 22):
Will the 767F take two LD-3 containers side by side on the main deck? Or do they require a unique container because of the narrower fuselage?

The 767 can handle side-by-side 88x125x96" AAD ULDs or single-file 96x125x96" AMJ ULDs.

Per earlier posts, FedEx moved from the AMJ to the AAD with arrival of the 767. The A300s and A310s are being converted to handle the AADs, as well.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 20):
Is there clearance for the bigger engine?

Plenty of clearance but the added weight would need to be managed. Expensive wing changes.

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 20):
Not sure why the tanker isn't using the GEnx2's.

Because the USAF did not want to pay for it. They use the aircraft so sparingly that the added $ wouldn't have been paid for by fuel savings.

tortugamon
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1287
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:25 am

RE: New Life For The 767

Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 24):

Plenty of clearance but the added weight would need to be managed. Expensive wing changes.

Would be nice to see Boeing do this but very unlikely given the cost of certifying a new engine on a low-volume airframe. The weight delta isn't quite as big as I would have guessed but still significant:

CF6-80C2B6F: 4,431 kg / 9,768 lbs (link)
GEnx-2B67: 5,613 kg / 12,375 lbs (link)

-B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos