Caribbean Aviation Thread 115

American 767 · Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:59 pm

Thread 114 now archived, please continue here.

Caribbean Aviation Thread 114 (by A388 Feb 24 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Ben Soriano

beeweel15 · Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:37 pm

Any news on the potential carriers that the THA is negotiating with to start services to Tobago

guyanam · Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 1):

From North America? That is where they have the biggest problems with their marketing.

817Dreamliiner · Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:48 pm

Jet bridges being tested in ANU today:

yellowtail · Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:28 pm

Not sure if I would want them testing jetbridges on my 330

8b775zq · Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:46 am

Is there a way someone can link the highlights of the previous thread into this new thread?

A388 · Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 4):
Not sure if I would want them testing jetbridges on my 330

How else would a jet bridge be tested if it isn't on a real aircraft? The chance of a jet bridge damaging an aircraft is always there no matter how you look at it.

How were the A380 jet bridges tested at London Heathrow before being used?

A388

A388 · Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:15 pm

Those bridges look like Thyssen Krupp jetbridges. Is Thyssen Krupp the supplier of these bridges in ANU?

A388

LimaFoxTango · Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 7):

Based on a few photos I saw on the Airport Authority fb page, yes.

LimaFoxTango · Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:09 pm

Bahamasair selects ATR as Dash 8 replacement

Avions de Transport Régional (Toulouse Blagnac) has revealed during the ongoing Paris Airshow that Bahamasair (UP, Nassau Int'l) has ordered three ATR42-600s and two ATR72-600s.

The Bahamian national carrier will use the turboprops to replace its ageing fleet of five Dash 8-300s used on flights throughout the Bahamas as well as to the United States, the Turks & Caicos Islands, and the British Virgin Islands.

http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/ne...-selects-atr-as-dash-8-replacement

As if there was any doubt that this would've happened. They seemed however to make the same "mistake" LI did with ordering a mix of -42's and -72's.

A388 · Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 8):
Quoting A388 (Reply 7):
Based on a few photos I saw on the Airport Authority fb page, yes.

Okay we also use two of them here since 2012, that's why I noticed it. I hope to visit the new terminal of ANU one day.

A388

817Dreamliiner · Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:59 pm

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 9):
They seemed however to make the same "mistake" LI did with ordering a mix of -42's and -72's.

Yup. It seems ATR "Scammed" yet another one of our Caribbean Airlines.... When are they gonna learn.... *Sarcasm*

I can imagine all the Dash 8 fanboys are fuming...

[Edited 2015-06-15 10:01:22]

A388 · Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:06 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 11):
Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 9):They seemed however to make the same "mistake" LI did with ordering a mix of -42's and -72's.
Yup. It seems ATR "Scammed" yet another one of our Caribbean Airlines.... When are they gonna learn.... *Sarcasm*

How come the ATR72/42 combo isn't working for LIAT? From a capacity point of view I can imagine that having the two types, makes an airline more flexible for route planning. Is the ATR42 better for LIAT or the ATR72? Does cargo determine which type is better knowing that Caribbean people like to travel heavy with a lot of baggage? If that is the case, I can imagine the ATR72 being a better fit. Or am I seeing all of this completely wrong?

A388

yellowtail · Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
How else would a jet bridge be tested if it isn't on a real aircraft? The chance of a jet bridge damaging an aircraft is always there no matter how you look at it.

How were the A380 jet bridges tested at London Heathrow before being used?

While I agree with your perfectly sound argument, If it were my $100 million asset away from base.....i might feel a little different.....just saying

A388 · Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 13):
While I agree with your perfectly sound argument, If it were my $100 million asset away from base.....i might feel a little different.....just saying

I also understand what you're trying to say but in the case of LHR and the first A380 operation, it wasn't a local airline that started the first A380 service to LHR. It was either SQ, QF or EK which are all away from their base. There is no other choice but to have your own aircraft being used to test those A380 bridges so it is in the airline's own interest to use those bridges. In the case of the VS A333 in ANU, it's also in their own interest to have those bridges being operated the right way on their A333's. It has to be tested first before the airline starts using the bridges in the case where those jet bridges are new to the airport so there no way around it.

A388

beeweel15 · Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 12):
How come the ATR72/42 combo isn't working for LIAT? From a capacity point of view I can imagine that having the two types, makes an airline more flexible for route planning. Is the ATR42 better for LIAT or the ATR72? Does cargo determine which type is better knowing that Caribbean people like to travel heavy with a lot of baggage? If that is the case, I can imagine the ATR72 being a better fit. Or am I seeing all of this completely wrong?

I agree why is it a bad decision. You need flexibility with fleet planning especially in the Caribbean. I think the mistake LIAT made was trying to fly these aircraft to islands where you might only need a 30 seater or less aircraft to for fill your daily needs and where transporting goods by ferry is more economical than by air.

BW424 · Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:47 pm

Hey guys,

Apologies for being rather absent in recent times. Circumstances dictate such.

So made a quick turn to GEO. Flew down on 483 (9Y-JMB) and returned on 527 (9Y-GEO). Flights were smooth, on-time and crew were friendly.
The Caribbean Beat Magazine's CEO message is all I'm usually interested in reading while onboard. In that article, Mr. Dilollo announced that CAL has signed an inter-line agreement with EK which should come fully on stream with the implementation of their new IT reservations system infrastructure. When that occurs? No idea. It will allow customers from CAL's website to book straight through to over 100 cities over JFK/DXB or LGW/DXB.

Also announced in that message was the formal advertisement of CAL as an MRO facility for both the ATR and 737NG.
So, some good news, albeit a bit clandestine if it weren't for reading the CEO's message in the latest issue of the Caribbean Beat.

817Dreamliiner · Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:05 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 12):
How come the ATR72/42 combo isn't working for LIAT?

I don't think the ATR's is causing much problems for them to consider it a mistake. I believe LimaFoxTango was replying sarcastically considering he put the word in inverted commas. Remember that LIAT always had its issues, much bigger ones than the ATR. However, there are some who will blame the ATR no end for whatever problems they may be having now, even if its not related to the ATR in any way. (hence my Dash 8 fanboy comment). I believe, the ATR is a good fit for them and once they get rid of all the Dash 8s they have sitting around doing nothing, they should *hopefully* start doing a bit better.

LimaFoxTango · Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 14):
How come the ATR72/42 combo isn't working for LIAT

Never said it doesn't work. They bought these planes so they had to make it work.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 17):

The ATR is serving LI well IMO, however my only gripe is the mix of -42s and -72s. Might seem like a common sense commercial decision, but operationally, probably not. When a -72 with 68 pax goes tech (not often, but it happens), you can imagine the bedlam that occurs when a -42 comes to the rescue. I don't have specifics, but I think the operating cost of the -42 and -72 is negligible. So, you probably won't loose more or less flying around 20 pax in a -72 vs a -42. Your potential for profit should be greater however having a fleet of all -72s. LI load factors vary greatly throughout the year and is certainly seasonal, but the peaks should subsidize the lows.

I know nothing about UP, but they're even smaller than LI(their regional operation this is). I just think they should've gone all -42s or all -72s.

LimaFoxTango · Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:16 pm

Objection to LIAT exemption request

LIAT IS FACING some unexpected turbulence as it seeks what is usually a routine exemption from the United States Department of Transportation (US DOT). On May 18, the airline’s legal representative in Washington DC, Lee A. Bauer, of law firm Roller & Bauer, submitted a 13-page application for the renewal of LIAT’s exemption authorising it to “engage in scheduled foreign air transportation of persons, property and mail” to and from destinations including Barbados and some US territories.

However, on June 1, Andrew Bonney, senior vice president of planning at Cape Air, a US airline based in Hyannis, Massachusetts, formally objected to what he said was LIAT’s request for the exemption to include service between San Juan, Puerto Rico and Tortola, British Virgin Islands. In his written submission on LIAT’s behalf, Bauer said the airline was seeking to continue servicing several routes, specifically “between . . . Antigua and Barbuda, Montserrat, and St Kitts and Nevis; via . . . Anguilla, the British Virgin Islands, and St Maarten; and . . . St Croix, St Thomas, and San Juan. . .; and beyond to Santo Domingo, [and] the Dominican Republic”.

The service would also cover “between . . . Antigua and Barbuda, and St. Kitts and Nevis, via . . . St Maarten and St Lucia; and . . Miami, Florida; between San Juan, Puerto Rico and St Vincent, and beyond to Bridgetown, Barbados; and charter foreign air transportation of persons, property and mail”.

- See more at: http://www.nationnews.com/nationnews...3/objection-liat-exemption-request

2travel2know2 · Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting BW424 (Reply 16):
Also announced in that message was the formal advertisement of CAL as an MRO facility for both the ATR and 737NG.

If BW really knows how to run it, customers will come.
If BW doesn't then BW better let someone run it and just become a minority stock-holder.

CPH-R · Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:59 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 14):
I also understand what you're trying to say but in the case of LHR and the first A380 operation, it wasn't a local airline that started the first A380 service to LHR. It was either SQ, QF or EK which are all away from their base. There is no other choice but to have your own aircraft being used to test those A380 bridges so it is in the airline's own interest to use those bridges.

I'm pretty sure Airbus flew up an A380 from TLS to perform operational trials at LHR way before SQ started their services, which included docking at Pier 6 and T5 (if that was operational at the time, I can't remember).

LimaFoxTango · Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 21):
I'm pretty sure Airbus flew up an A380 from TLS to perform operational trials at LHR way before SQ started their services, which included docking at Pier 6 and T5 (if that was operational at the time, I can't remember).

Did Airbus do this at every single airport where the A380 now flies? Airlines "volunteer" their aircraft for tests like these all the time. I'm sure their people were around to ensure everything is done correctly. VS also volunteered their aircraft in the early push-back trials as well. Not sure what the issue is here.

beeweel15 · Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 18):
Might seem like a common sense commercial decision, but operationally, probably not. When a -72 with 68 pax goes tech (not often, but it happens), you can imagine the bedlam that occurs when a -42 comes to the rescue.

In that situation the airline will seek folks who do not have to travel immediately and can delay their travel. It happens world wide with the Big carriers.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 22):
Did Airbus do this at every single airport where the A380 now flies? Airlines "volunteer" their aircraft for tests like these all the time. I'm sure their people were around to ensure everything is done correctly. VS also volunteered their aircraft in the early push-back trials as well. Not sure what the issue is here.

Yes the did send reps to airports to certify along with local officials that the aircraft could fly in just like Boeing did with the B747 in the 60's / 70's many times using PanAM..

A388 · Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:31 pm

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 22):
Did Airbus do this at every single airport where the A380 now flies? Airlines "volunteer" their aircraft for tests like these all the time. I'm sure their people were around to ensure everything is done correctly. VS also volunteered their aircraft in the early push-back trials as well. Not sure what the issue is here.

This is what I meant. The A380 probably is a bad example but airlines volunteer for such things as LimaFoxTango says. That is my point because if AF would start A380 service to let's say PTP than Airbus won't send their aircraft to PTP but AF will have to volunteer.

A388

kasimir · Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:03 pm

Just read news that Insel Air is looking at 2 used A319 for possible destinations to GRU and EZE.

I'm curious how far Insel Air is in the process to get the planes and crew training. Maybe A388 has some more info?

Regarding the routes, I think GRU or even GIG are much better Brazil destinations then MAO, but I don't know about EZE, there might be better options like SCL, BSB or MVD (codeshare with KL).

http://curacaochronicle.com/aviation...-used-a319s-for-network-expansion/

What do you guys think about this? How about possible codeshares with KL on routes that KL doesn't serve directly?

A388 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:49 pm

[quote=kasimir,reply=25]
What do you guys think about this? How about possible codeshares with KL on routes that KL doesn't serve directly?

I didn't know about this so I don't have more information on this. I welcome this upgrade of course. Regarding code shares with KL, I don't see an added value for KL as they already have an extensive coverage in Argentina through their partner AR and in Brazil they have G3. Even so, more power to Insel Air of course.

A388

817Dreamliiner · Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:54 pm

ANU's new terminal will finally open on the 15th of July based on a recent facebook post I saw.

And in other news:

Norwegian Starts US - Caribbean Flights (by arn777 Jun 25 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Interesting venture I must say. Hope it works out for them. Will be nice to see something a bit different in the Caribbean skies.

A388 · Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 27):
And in other news:

Norwegian Starts US - Caribbean Flights (by arn777 Jun 25 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Interesting venture I must say. Hope it works out for them. Will be nice to see something a bit different in the Caribbean skies.

This definitely is interesting but as the thread says, it is possible because Guadeloupe and Martinique are part of the EU through France so it makes this possible (apparently). I'm afraid we won't see other Caribbean islands being added as they are not EU territory. I would personally prefer U.S. airlines flying to the Caribbean as they have feed from other hubs and airports. Norwegian lacks this feed. Even so, nice to see them in our region of course

A388

817Dreamliiner · Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:52 pm

Here is the schedule:

eff 03DEC15 Boston – Pointe-a-Pitre 2 weekly
DY6703 BOS1300 – 1815PTP 73H 47
DY6702 PTP0825 – 1140BOS 73H 47

eff 03DEC15 New York JFK – Fort de France 3 weekly
DY6751 JFK1320 – 1915FDF 73H 246
DY6750 FDF0805 – 1200JFK 73H 246

eff 04DEC15 Baltimore/Washington – Fort de France 2 weekly
DY6755 BWI1300 – 1825FDF 73H 15
DY6754 FDF0810 – 1140BWI 73H 15

eff 04DEC15 New York JFK – Pointe-a-Pitre 3 weekly
DY6701 JFK1320 – 1855PTP 73H 135
DY6700 PTP0815 – 1200JFK 73H 135

eff 05DEC15 Baltimore/Washington – Pointe-a-Pitre 2 weekly
DY6705 BWI1300 – 1815PTP 73H 26
DY6704 PTP0825 – 1140BWI 73H 26

eff 06DEC15 Boston – Fort de France 2 weekly
DY6753 BOS1300 – 1830FDF 73H 37
DY6752 FDF0800 – 1140BOS 73H 37

http://airlineroute.net/2015/06/25/dy-fdfptp-dec15/

2travel2know2 · Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:30 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 28):
This definitely is interesting but as the thread says, it is possible because Guadeloupe and Martinique are part of the EU through France so it makes this possible (apparently). I'm afraid we won't see other Caribbean islands being added as they are not EU territory.

Last I heard, and per the new agreement between the Netherlands Antilles and The Netherlands, BON happens to be at the same kind of status like Martinique and Guadeloupe.
Not sure if the French side of St Maarten/St Martin is also considered EU (but AF uses SXM).
So probably DY could fly between U.S. and BON/SXM.

DY U.S. East Coast French West Indies routes don't make that much sense, even from NYC, but perhaps there's probably some Haïtian VFR between NYC and those islands.
If those were routes out of YUL, that'd be a whole different story.

trintocan · Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:54 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 30):

Last I heard, and per the new agreement between the Netherlands Antilles and The Netherlands, BON happens to be at the same kind of status like Martinique and Guadeloupe.
Not sure if the French side of St Maarten/St Martin is also considered EU (but AF uses SXM).
So probably DY could fly between U.S. and BON/SXM.

No, BON cannot be served in this way as it is not in the EU. The respective statuses of the different Dutch island changed a lot in 2009 with BON becoming an integral part of The Netherlands proper but it does not belong to a Dutch province or the EU. The EU Outermost Regions (which are included in the Open Skies Agreement) are - Martinique, Guadeloupe, St. Martin, Guyane (French Guiana), Mayotte, La Reunion, Azores, Canary Islands and Madeira. If an airline could fly to the Grand Case airport in St Martin from the US then that would fall under the Open Skies - but that is not physically possible as that airport is very small. SXM is outside that arrangement as its legal status is different - it is a constituent country of the Kingdom Of The Netherlands (the other 3 being The Netherlands proper, Aruba and Curacao).

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 30):

DY U.S. East Coast French West Indies routes don't make that much sense, even from NYC, but perhaps there's probably some Haïtian VFR between NYC and those islands.
If those were routes out of YUL, that'd be a whole different story.

It may seem unusual but with proper marketing it may well work, as suggested elsewhere DY could offer new destinations which combine Caribbean and European flavours to the major US East Coast cities. Of course let's not lose sight that the proximity of BOS and JFK to Canada, especially Québec, may allow them to grab market share from there. If they were to fly to Canada (YUL specifically) they would be covered by the Open Skies agreement between Canada and the EU but then they would have strong in-house competition (AC) whereas in the US cities chosen there is no such competition.

Quoting kasimir (Reply 25):
What do you guys think about this? How about possible codeshares with KL on routes that KL doesn't serve directly?

KL operated a codeshare on ALM flights between CUR and POS after ending Trinidad service in POS. The arrangement lasted one year until the financially troubled ALM dropped POS. As Air ALM they returned in 1996 and restored the codeshare but this did not last long. As for new codeshares, I will likewise doubt any beyond alliance links.

Trintocan.

kasimir · Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting trintocan (Reply 31):
No, BON cannot be served in this way as it is not in the EU.

Thats true, but will very likely change before the end of the year, since the Netherlands will try to change the status from OCT to OMR and making BON part of the EU.

Quoting trintocan (Reply 31):
KL operated a codeshare on ALM flights between CUR and POS after ending Trinidad service in POS. The arrangement lasted one year until the financially troubled ALM dropped POS. As Air ALM they returned in 1996 and restored the codeshare but this did not last long. As for new codeshares, I will likewise doubt any beyond alliance links.

My question was more related to the possible new South America routes that could be served with the A319. Ofcourse KL already serves GRU, GIG, SCL and EZE... But what if Insel could serve for example MDV or BSB from CUR together with KL?

Insel Air has a succesful codeshare agreement with KL since Dec 2012.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insel_Air#Insel_Air_and_KLM

[Edited 2015-06-25 18:26:01]

A388 · Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting kasimir (Reply 32):
My question was more related to the possible new South America routes that could be served with the A319. Ofcourse KL already serves GRU, GIG, SCL and EZE... But what if Insel could serve for example MDV or BSB from CUR together with KL?

Of course Insel Air can codeshare with KLM, if it works than why not. They probably will codeshare but seeing their partners G3 and AR I don't see much of an added value to KLM to have Insel Air codeshare in South America. Even so, as I just said, do codeshare. It wouldn't hurt I think so why not. I'm just very interested in knowing where Insel Air is going to source these A319's and how many they will take (replacing the entire MD80 fleet makes the most sense).

A388

guyanam · Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 33):

It will be interesting to learn how many of their new routes are performing. What are the existing travel stats for the new proposed routes. And whether they are filling sufficient seats on their routes, such as PBM, where they have significantly expanded service.

They already had to cancel their La Romana route.

A388 · Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:33 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 34):
It will be interesting to learn how many of their new routes are performing. What are the existing travel stats for the new proposed routes. And whether they are filling sufficient seats on their routes, such as PBM, where they have significantly expanded service.

They already had to cancel their La Romana route.

All valid questions I would also like to know. I have no insight into their data unfortunately. I think they are going for new markets because their main market (Venezuela) is becoming more insecure now. I hope I'm wrong on this.

A388

TravelsUK · Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:51 am

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 23):
In that situation the airline will seek folks who do not have to travel immediately and can delay their travel. It happens world wide with the Big carriers.

OMG! Funniest thing I have ever heard, you must be living in some kind of dreamworld!!!

LIAT couldn't give a rats arse as far as customer service goes, you just get bumped off, no apology. Tough luck buddy go deal with it!

Got bumped off numerous flights with LIAT due to aircraft changes and it makes not one bit of difference how far in advance you booked, how much you paid for the ticket or your reasons for travelling etc. Booked a BGI to ANU flight 2 months in advance of travel to attend a friends wedding, still got bumped off.

LIAT should be ashamed of their customer service, or lack of service, they are an embarrassment to the nations they serve and represent.

guyanam · Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting TravelsUK (Reply 36):

LIAT's attitude is "if you don't like it, then swim". And in fact one of their ground crews told me exactly that. I will add that even minors traveling on their own do not necessarily get better treatment. They get treated like baggage....if they arrive they arrive....if not....

There was a sad case of a Guyanese kid traveling from GEO to EIS. The plane was delayed and arrived in ANU after the connection to EIS left. The parents, waiting in EIS, were not informed, so only knew, when the kid didnt get off the plane in EIS, that he was stuck in ANU. Other stranded passengers had to adopt this kid once they arrived in ANU, and the LIAT staff dumped the kid at the hotel and effectively abandoned him. Of course the kid hadnt been fed all afternoon and there was no food available as the dining room and all nearby restaurants had closed. Luckily some passengers had a few biscuits to give to the kid.

I do not know what the solution to LI is, as competition will not help as those who compete are no better. And are any way out of business.

The bottom line though is that this lousy service, combined with high travel taxes levied by Caribbean gov'ts, has resulted in a sharp drop in intra regional travel, hurting LI. Imagine an ANU SKB ticket (52 miles) can cost as much as US$400, with 60% consisting of travel taxes. Then Caribbean gov'ts host meeting after meeting to whine that intra regional travel is down 50%!

8b775zq · Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 37):
I do not know what the solution to LI is, as competition will not help as those who compete are no better. And are any way out of business.

Competition was better when 8B was flying. Alas the Govt. of Antigua saw it best to kill 8B under the guise of a merger to save LI. I know both airlines were losing money but pax for the most part preferred 8B at least here in the northern islands.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 37):
The bottom line though is that this lousy service, combined with high travel taxes levied by Caribbean gov'ts, has resulted in a sharp drop in intra regional travel, hurting LI. Imagine an ANU SKB ticket (52 miles) can cost as much as US$400, with 60% consisting of travel taxes. Then Caribbean gov'ts host meeting after meeting to whine that intra regional travel is down 50%!

Couldn't have said it better..... bunch of hypocrites the whole set of them.

guyanam · Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:34 am

Quoting 8b775zq (Reply 38):

Some how I remember the gov't of Antigua allowing 8B to run empty planes right next to LI with the aim of driving them out of business. Like you forgot that Stanford OWNED Antigua during that era and could do what ever he wished.

The merger came about when Stanford was getting into his own financial problems, of which we are now well aware, and could no longer afford to support a company which had losses even HIGHER than LIATs. 8B was every bit as unreliable as LI was. Ditto Redjet and every other private competitor.

I suspect that YOU preferred 8b. Every 8B flight I saw arriving in SKB, alongside LI, I saw more passengers on LI. When I asked why, I was told that the "devil you know is better than the one you don't", and 8B was guilty of the same unreliable service, just maybe a little nicer about it. That is when the ground staff was at the airport.

I also recall some being suspicious of Stanford's motives and concerned about a foreign speculator taking over a service as vital as that provided by LIAT.

Now imagine what would have happened to Eastern Caribbean aviation if Stanford had succeeded in destroying LI, and then his bankruptcy then destroying 8B.

Like I said , LIAT is an abomination, but do people really prefer Fly Montserrat or SVG Air or Hummingbird?

LimaFoxTango · Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:04 am

Quoting 8b775zq (Reply 38):

Competition was better when 8B was flying. Alas the Govt. of Antigua saw it best to kill 8B under the guise of a merger to save LI. I know both airlines were losing money but pax for the most part preferred 8B at least here in the northern islands.

Not sure where you got that info from, but the ANU govt certainly did not "kill 8B". Stanford finally realized that 8B was no longer viable and wanted out the airline business. So the "merger" talk with LI came about. In the end, there was no merger and all of 8B's assets was simply given to LI and LI rehired who they wanted.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 39):
The merger came about when Stanford was getting into his own financial problems, of which we are now well aware, and could no longer afford to support a company which had losses even HIGHER than LIATs. 8B was every bit as unreliable

Agreed.

8b775zq · Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:25 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 39):
Some how I remember the gov't of Antigua allowing 8B to run empty planes right next to LI with the aim of driving them out of business. Like you forgot that Stanford OWNED Antigua during that era and could do what ever he wished.

That was part of the problem also. 8B's schedule was too closely mirroring LI for the most part.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 39):
I suspect that YOU preferred 8b. Every 8B flight I saw arriving in SKB, alongside LI, I saw more passengers on LI. When I asked why, I was told that the "devil you know is better than the one you don't", and 8B was guilty of the same unreliable service, just maybe a little nicer about it. That is when the ground staff was at the airport.

Yes I preferred 8B and never had a problem with them. I always found them reliable and courteous and for the most part flights were ontime and packed full of pax. I'm not sure of which flights you speak of as arriving almost empty but I suspect it might've been the 7am arrival from ANU with service continuing on to SXM-EIS and return but the 11am and 5pm departures were almost always fully loaded both ways.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 40):
Not sure where you got that info from, but the ANU govt certainly did not "kill 8B". Stanford finally realized that 8B was no longer viable and wanted out the airline business. So the "merger" talk with LI came about. In the end, there was no merger and all of 8B's assets was simply given to LI and LI rehired who they wanted.

Ok maybe my wording was wrong as I meant the 8B brand. As a businessman I found that decision by Stanford to be dumb. If the govt. couldn't get a handle on LI why would you think they would be able to manage 8B any better? At the end of the day LI was the better known brand by virtue of it's many years so that would be given preference notwithstanding the fact that said govt. is a shareholder.
8B would've been better served if they and sister airline ZQ formed an alliance of sorts instead of flying the same routes as each other. What if ZQ was given a fleet of E-Jets and ran flights out of the USA East Coast and fed them thru their hub in PR and into 8B's network at ANU wouldn't that have been a more viable option? It was ridiculous flying home from EIS and at the airport in Tortola there was both an 8B aircraft departing for SXM-SKB-ANU and at the same time a ZQ aircraft inbound from SJU and continuing on to SKB with both arriving in SKB 10-15min apart.

LimaFoxTango · Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:19 pm

Quoting 8b775zq (Reply 41):

ZQ was only formed simply because ANU and the ECCAA at the time was CAT2 and could not fly to US ports. In the latter days, ZQ ended up flying to EIS, SXM, SKB, ANU, DOM, BGI, SVD and POS, all 8B destinations. ZQ was in fact competing with 8B.They preferred to let ZQ fly direct to/from SJU from these destinations that simply say use ANU as a hub. I do think the 8B brand should have stayed and let LI go, but the ANU, BGI and SVD would've never let that happen.

8b775zq · Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 42):
ZQ was only formed simply because ANU and the ECCAA at the time was CAT2 and could not fly to US ports

Yes I understood that was the reason. I would normally fly with ZQ when going to SJU for shopping and 8B to EIS when going to STT to check-in.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 42):
In the latter days, ZQ ended up flying to EIS, SXM, SKB, ANU, DOM, BGI, SVD and POS, all 8B destinations. ZQ was in fact competing with 8B.

Which further compounded the problem. Two sister airlines competing with each other when they were formed to compete with LI.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 42):
I do think the 8B brand should have stayed and let LI go,

All wishful thinking now but as you said.....

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 42):
the ANU, BGI and SVD would've never let that happen.

8b775zq · Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:40 pm

any news on Hummingbird Air as of late?

guyanam · Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting 8b775zq (Reply 41):

This is moot. When Stanford was benefitting from his ill gotten gains he could have afforded to indulge in his hobby, which was running loss making Caribbean airlines.

When his financial ventures began to lose money, and the regulators and others began to scrutinize him, he had to exit the airline business.

We can debate as to which brand was strongest, but without a doubt the LI brand was stronger in the southern islands (the more lucrative part of the LI network), so would have been the one to select. In addition, with Stanford being branded a criminal, I don't see how a brand connected to him would have gone over too well with the public.

The reality is that the Eastern Caribbean couldn't support two carriers of similar size. 8B/ZQ lost even more money than LI did, no doubt because of the ridiculously low fares charged, and the fact that the Caribbean is an expensive place o do business.

So those who claim that a private sector owned airline is a panacea have to explain the demise of 8B/ZQ and Redjet, on top of EX EXpress and others. And the failure of carriers like SVG AIR and Fly Mont from growing beyond being niche carriers.

txkf2010 · Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:49 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 45):
So those who claim that a private sector owned airline is a panacea have to explain the demise of 8B/ZQ and Redjet, on top of EX EXpress and others.

8B/ZQ sound like they just went in a la Rocky/Apollo Creed and ended up beating the hell out of each other rather than LI, thus causing their demise. And Redjet went into hostile territory with an unfamiliar face. Basically David went to go fight Goliath with a pillow instead of the sling and stone. Had they decided to begin their operation in say SKB, they probably would have faired better IMO.

SVG is all over the place with their fleet. Are they going to do charters or scheduled services? Having Citations sitting around while their marketing plan is almost nonexistent is why don't know whether they're coming or going. And as for Fly Mont....take a ferry or swim. This "airline" is only around because they are sitting in a regulatory blank space. Disaster waiting to happen.

I've said it because and I'll say it again, their needs to be a competitor in the region, 8-10 seatish that will come in strong and fill the holes LI and Winair don't / won't fly and even ones they do. LI basically leaving unaccompanied minor stranded should easily have been the straw that broke the camels back.

andrefranca · Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting kasimir (Reply 25):
Regarding the routes, I think GRU or even GIG are much better Brazil destinations then MAO, but I don't know about EZE, there might be better options like SCL, BSB or MVD (codeshare with KL).

I know Insel will switch MAO AUA for MAO CUR as other 4 members of my family will be flying there in the followings weeks!

Insel came on a bad timing, dollar vs. the Real is 3,30 to one, when I was in the carib September last year it was 2,50 to 1, so you can see the disastrous mismanagement our GOV is doing to our country!

They will have to survive the price war as soon as they get to GRU, G3 and CM won't let them play so easily....

JJ is already promoting their new flight to PUJ from BSB

Source: http://www.tam.com.br/b2c/vgn/v/inde...cab6846410VgnVCM1000009508020aRCRD

vfw614 · Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 18):
The ATR is serving LI well IMO, however my only gripe is the mix of -42s and -72s. Might seem like a common sense commercial decision, but operationally, probably not. I don't have specifics, but I think the operating cost of the -42 and -72 is negligible. So, you probably won't loose more or less flying around 20 pax in a -72 vs a -42. Your potential for profit should be greater however having a fleet of all -72s.

Aren't there airports in the network from which the ATR72 cannot operate, but the ATR42 can?

guyanam · Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:17 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 48):

The only airports with limits in LI's system will be EIS, DOM, SVD, and OGL. I believe that the 72 flies into all of them, though there might be some weight restrictions.

Quoting txkf2010 (Reply 46):

Given that they had the same owner, I doubt that ZQ and 8B competed. I think that when the ECCAA achieved Cat 1 the two operated interchangeably in the northern routes, with ZQ running the smaller Dash 8's.

Don't see any carrier willing or able to develop a route network as comprehensive as that of LI. 8B was the closest, and they failed.

Many people aren't going to use a 10 seater, unless it is to an island 20 minutes away. I wouldn't want to see what the baggage situation will be for those connecting to international flights. This is why I am curious about how well Hummingbird is doing.

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