Boeing 747 Too Much Plane For Domestic Routes

doulasc · Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:56 am

When the Boeing 747-100 series first came out in 1969-1970 every major US airline ordered them except Western Airlines
Not including local service airlines like Allegheney or Piedmont.Through out the 1970s most airlines in the USA who did not
have any overseas routes and were a domestic airline found that the Boeing 747 was too much plane and retired them and
went with DC-10s or L-1011s. among the airlines that retired their 747s were Continental,National,Delta,Eastern(leased a
few from Pan Am to test out and felt the L-1011 would serve them better),American Airlines retired theirs in 1984 and half
of their fleet of 16 were converted to freighters,The only exception was United Airlines who did not have any International
routes in the 1970s kept their Boeing 747-122s and also had Douglas DC-10s. Wondered why United held onto to theirs
when all others retired theirs being a domestic only airline.
TWA flew their 747s across the Atlantic to Europe and on a few transcon routes from JFK-LAX/SFO,Braniff had only one
for their DFW-HNL service,Of course Pam Am was all overseas with their 747s,Northwest Orient had their Trans Pacific
routes for theirs. Basically The 747 was more suited for long distance international travel.Domestic widebodies were
Douglas DC-10 and Lockheed 1011s.

flyingclrs727 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:00 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Of course Pam Am was all overseas with their 747s

I flew JFK-IAH on a Pan Am 747-121 in 1984. The flight continued on to MEX.

Viscount724 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:20 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Wondered why United held onto to theirs when all others retired theirs being a domestic only airline.

UA's Hawaii routes in combination with being a major player in the transcontinental markets (JFK-LAX/SFO etc.) along with AA and TW, worked fairly well for UA's early 747-100s.

Carriers like DL and CO had no suitable 747 routes, but at that time many carriers ordered 747s for image reasons and flew them with load factors often well below 50%. And that was with the much less dense seating configurations then, including 9-abreast (3-4-2) in Y class and the upper deck used as a first class lounge, and sometimes even a Y class lounge on the main deck..

doulasc · Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:47 am

National Airlines had routes that were suitable for a 747.MIA-LAX and MIA-Europe but chose DC-10-30s instead.

Viscount724 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:50 am

Quoting doulasc (Reply 3):
National Airlines had routes that were suitable for a 747.MIA-LAX and MIA-Europe but chose DC-10-30s instead.

Those were much smaller markets 40 years ago than today. MIA-LAX or MIA-LHR didn't compare with JFK-LAX or JFK-LHR, or in UA"s case mainland-Hawaii.

[Edited 2015-06-08 18:51:43]

eta unknown · Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:00 am

Also remember the oil crisis hit during this time and fares were dictated by the Civil Aeronautics Board- the Carter administration abolished this dept. and deregulation arrived.

So if you operated a 747 you had a big problem- if you wanted to dump $99 fares on let's say JFK-MIA to fill up the aircraft during off peak periods you couldn't unless the CAB approved the fare. JFK-LAX/SFO-HNL were really the only routes suitable to 747 ops, thus CO DL EA NA all disposed of their small 747 fleets.

I don't know what TWA was thinking- the large 747 fleet was good in summer flying full to Europe, but the other half of the year these birds flew empty.

Viscount724 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:25 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 5):
I don't know what TWA was thinking- the large 747 fleet was good in summer flying full to Europe, but the other half of the year these birds flew empty.

Quite a few (at least 8) of TWA's early 747-100s were returned to Boeing around 1975 after only 4 or 5 years service. Those aircraft were converted to freighters and delivered to the Iranian Air Force.

NWAROOSTER · Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
When the Boeing 747-100 series first came out in 1969-1970 every major US airline ordered them except Western Airlines

Western Airlines ordered the 747-100 but canceled the order before they went into production.

TW870 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:20 am

Macroeconomic dynamics were so crucial to the rise and fall of the domestic U.S. 747. The boards of the big carriers were evaluating the aircraft during the busiest months of the 1960s boom. The CAB was infamously slow on new route awards during this period, so it felt like the basic dynamics would stay relatively constant. A VLA made sense for core domestic routes if 1968 had frozen in time. With 4-5% GDP growth, low inflation, and a slow CAB, many routes - not just JFK-LAX/SFO-HNL - would have been ideal for the 747.

The problem is that a relatively static market underwent an avalanche of change in the 1970s. Between the deep 1973 recession, the oil crisis, creeping deregulation at Kahn's CAB, and then actual deregulation in 1978, competition and costs went up. Everyone wanted to get out from under widebody capacity, and the 727-200 was the star of the day.

OzarkD9S · Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:00 am

On the other end of the spectrum, I found it surprising that several carriers shed their smallest jets around the same time:

AA/BN ditched the BAC 1-11.

TW/CO ditched the DC-9-10.

So some carriers had too much airplane in the 747 and not enough airplane with their bus stop jets.

skymiler · Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:51 am

May be the 747 was too much for domestic routes, but it was FUN!

My note book shows I was on DL 46 SFO ATL on September 12, 1973 -- partying like a fool in the upper deck lounge! Even have the flight attendant's names and phone #'s -- (many were single in those days ..) wonder where they are now ...

WA707atMSP · Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 9):
On the other end of the spectrum, I found it surprising that several carriers shed their smallest jets around the same time:

AA/BN ditched the BAC 1-11.

TW/CO ditched the DC-9-10.

All four of these airlines also had fleets of 727s - all except CO had 727-100 fleets. They felt it made more sense to have one large fleet of 727s flying short haul routes, rather than a mixed fleet.

pasu129 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:19 pm

You got to remember, domestic United States pax prefer frequency over capacity, so having such a large plane would mean eliminating frequency to make it work.

The only routes I could ever see a widebody work would be the transcontinental routes, JFK - LAX/SFO, which is currently served mostly by narrowbody jets.

Maybe UA/DL can do a 744 LAX - JFK with high premium config?

larshjort · Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 7):

Quoting skymiler (Reply 10):
My note book shows I was on DL 46 SFO ATL on September 12, 1973 -- partying like a fool in the upper deck lounge! Even have the flight attendant's names and phone #'s -- (many were single in those days ..) wonder where they are now ...

They are still F/As, probably still on a 747 but without the partying

AADC10 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:23 pm

UA was using the 744 for the domestic segments of the RTW UA1/UA2 routes, usually between IAD and LAX off and on until about 2001. The 744 still appears as a sub on UA domestic routes from time to time but UA 1/2 was one of the last situations where UA operated 744s domestically on a regularly scheduled route most of the year. Did NW/DL ever operate the 744 domestically on a scheduled domestic route after 2001? I am not aware of one but I did not pay much attention to NW routes.

FlyPeoria · Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 7):
Western Airlines ordered the 747-100 but canceled the order before they went into production.

Seems I read somewhere that even Alaska Airlines ordered one in hopes of getting an ANC-JFK route! Obviously never happened.

I'm curious what route(s) WA would've deployed its 747s. I'm guessing LAX/SFO-HNL as most likely, and perhaps some flights originating/terminating at DEN or MSP.

Official Airline Guides from the early 1970s show 747s were used on some surprising routes, like a DL ATL-JAX leg in winter 1971-72! Also, NW put a 747 on an MSP-MKE-JFK route for a time starting in 1972. UA even famously operated 747s on ORD-CLE/PIT routes in the early 1970s!

[Edited 2015-06-09 09:50:23]

[Edited 2015-06-09 09:51:14]

[Edited 2015-06-09 09:52:00]

citationjet · Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Braniff had only one for their DFW-HNL service

Actually Braniff's 747 service was started with Dallas Love Field (DAL) to HNL, before DFW was open.
For a great photo of BN's 747 (along with BN 707, 720, DC-8, 727-100, and BAC1-11) at Love Field, scroll to the bottom of this link:
http://www.braniffpages.com/pic5.html

[Edited 2015-06-09 10:03:30]

bohica · Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
When the Boeing 747-100 series first came out in 1969-1970 every major US airline ordered them except Western Airlines

WA ordered three of them. They realized they could not fly them anywhere as their route structure was too small for the 747. WA converted the 747 order to 727's and 737's.

futureorthopod · Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:10 pm

Back when I was in high school I flew TWA 747-200 from JFK to LAX. Was my first ride on a 747. Was an absolute blast flying on this bird on a domestic route.

citationjet · Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 17):

WA ordered three of them. They realized they could not fly them anywhere as their route structure was too small for the 747.

Found an old thread on that topic:
https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/5716808

ER757 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:03 pm

Quoting skymiler (Reply 10):
May be the 747 was too much for domestic routes, but it was FUN!

Sure was - flew all of the following on 747's back in the day

ORD/LAX (UA, TW and CO)
ORD/SEA (UA)
SEA/MSP (NW)
ORD/MSP (NW)
ORD/SFO (UA)
STL/LAX (TW)
MIA/ORD (EA)

dennys · Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:33 pm

I am a 747 mad guy. I was completely duzzeled by this beauty. When i was a teenager i used to track all OAG sectors to fly the 747-200 on small jumps, included in any long haul.
My Kanguroo jumps were ORY/CDG to LHR or FRA to AMS . I definitely flew VARIG IRAN AIR AIR INDIA JAL AEROLINEAS PAKISTAN INTERNATIONAL SINGAPORE AL ....

I flew the 747-128 PARIS NICE
747-200C UTA CDG NCE // CDG MRS
747-136 BA ZRH LHR
747-257 / 357 GVA ZRH GVA
747-200B AZ FCO MXP FCO !!!!!

Those were Great Days to fly the 747 .
Now .... I want to Fly the 747-800 !!!

dennys · Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:38 pm

I forgot FRA AMS on board a 747-200B SAA and return same day at night AMS FRA on board a 747-200 QANTAS ! With a visit tour in Amsterdam !

fleabyte · Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting skymiler (Reply 10):
skymiler From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted Tue Jun 9 2015 07:51:42 your local time (9 hours 19 minutes 8 secs ago) and read 6860 times:

May be the 747 was too much for domestic routes, but it was FUN!

My note book shows I was on DL 46 SFO ATL on September 12, 1973 -- partying like a fool in the upper deck lounge! Even have the flight attendant's names and phone #'s -- (many were single in those days ..) wonder where they are now ...

How refreshing to hear someone talk like that....

I remember one time being on a connection from LAX to SFO on a UA 747-100, me the stewardesses and two other passengers, we played tag in economy class (not). Actually I just sat by the entrance door, but what a fun flight. The pilot rolled extra for us....

and then the old lounge on the Continental DC10. In College for spring break, I travelled to Cancun on a comp ticket with 100 USD to last me for a week. Fortunately for the lounge,I met a beautiful new sorority friend for the week and she took care of me from her nice hotel.

TW870 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):
UA even famously operated 747s on ORD-CLE/PIT routes in the early 1970s!

This is not surprising though. Chicago was the financial capital of the midwest, and PIT and CLE were still huge manufacturing cities in the early-1970s. Ohio and Pennsylvania had more combined electoral votes in 1972 than California, and had huge middle classes. The 747 story is as much about economic change as it is about technology change.

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 12):

You got to remember, domestic United States pax prefer frequency over capacity, so having such a large plane would mean eliminating frequency to make it work.

The context was somewhat different during regulation, though. With fares constant, airlines used multiple forms of customer service to win passengers from one another. Sometimes that meant frequency, and sometimes it meant elaborate service. As the airlines were evaluating the 747 in the 1960s, I think they saw it as a customer service weapon that would pay off even if they had to cut frequencies in some markets.

rugger · Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting skymiler (Reply 10):
My note book shows I was on DL 46 SFO ATL on September 12, 1973 -- partying like a fool in the upper deck lounge! Even have the flight attendant's names and phone #'s -- (many were single in those days ..) wonder where they are now ...

I know some women who were F/A's in the late 60's & early 70's. They now all look like someone's grandmother. But there is one thing that hasn't changed in them. Their poise and grace. Even now that they have aged, you can still tell that they were F/A's at one time. It appears that the training they received was permanent.

OzarkD9S · Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 11):

All four of these airlines also had fleets of 727s - all except CO had 727-100 fleets. They felt it made more sense to have one large fleet of 727s flying short haul routes, rather than a mixed fleet.

727s with 3 man crews vs. 2 man crews on the others. I guess even with cheap fuel it made some sort of sense for standardization purposes, and deregulation was yet on the horizon. In hindsight however....

CO ended up with DC-9s via TI/Texas Air. TWA ended up with DC-9s via Ozark. Braniff II ended up with some of 1-11s from the original BN via Florida express.

Only AA avoided that scenario. Interesting.

fleabyte · Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:10 pm

Quoting Rugger (Reply 25):
I know some women who were F/A's in the late 60's & early 70's. They now all look like someone's grandmother. But there is one thing that hasn't changed in them. Their poise and grace. Even now that they have aged, you can still tell that they were F/A's at one time. It appears that the training they received was permanent.

so I was flying from LAX to Honolulu, and the wife and I were in 1E and 1F I think, on a 777. Towards the end of the flight the three most wonderful United Veteran flight attendants come up to our row.

"Excuse me"

me - Yes

"We just wanted to say that your wife is the most beautiful person we have seen on this flight"

me - Thank you

"No, you don't understand, we each have worked this route with UA for over 40 years each, that is 120 combined years of flying the Hawaii route since the 1970s"

me - Thank you very much

"No, you really dont understand what we are trying to tell you, we have flown with countless actresses and stars, all of them, but your wife is more beautiful. The beauty comes from the eyes"

me - I am honored to have you say such wonderful things

wife (who dont speak good english) - what did they say?

me - they apologized because the lunch was not so good amor, go back to sleep....

BUt those wonderful ladies made me smile my entire time in hawaii with their kindness.

afcjets · Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:42 pm

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Of course Pam Am was all overseas with their 747s

Pan Am flew the 747 domestically too and up until the very end. I flew it LAX-JFK in the summer of 1991. It continued onto NCE. They may have also flown it SFO-JFK and LAX-MIA at some point too but I am not certain.

[Edited 2015-06-09 15:43:52]

panam92 · Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:20 am

I flew a TWA 747 STL to JFK back in 1996

SmithAir747 · Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:41 am

I flew from SFO to BOS in late June 2010 for a conference.

My original reservation on UA was a nonstop A320 SFO-BOS.

However, when I got to my gate that morning at SFO, the gate agent started asking for volunteers to give up their seats as the A320 was overbooked.

It so happened there was a 747-400 at a gate across the concourse from my gate. I went up to volunteer my seat, and the agent proceeded to book me on flight UA 54, to ORD, then a connection to BOS. I knew UA 54 at the time was a 744 flight--and it turned out to be the 744 at the gate across the concourse from where I was standing. Being a 747 lover, of course I took the offered UA flight 54, the 747 to ORD! I was thrilled when I was flying across the U.S. In the 747.

It was actually my second 747 of that year--just three months before, I had flown on a QF 744 LAX-AKL round trip.

SmithAir747

kurtjeter · Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):
Also, NW put a 747 on an MSP-MKE-JFK route for a time starting in 1972.

I think it was in 1986 . . . I flew a NW 747 from MEM to MSP. Don't know if that was a regular route with that equipment . . . .

afcjets · Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:35 am

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 31):
I think it was in 1986 . . . I flew a NW 747 from MEM to MSP. Don't know if that was a regular route with that equipment .

I remember that also I think it lasted for a long time or I am thinking of MEM-DTW instead, they probably did both over the years.

WaywardMemphian · Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:58 am

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 31):

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 31):
I think it was in 1986 . . . I flew a NW 747 from MEM to MSP. Don't know if that was a regular route with that equipment . . . .

Did NW fly the AMS flight back that far from Memphis

[Edited 2015-06-09 19:02:12]

Viscount724 · Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 26):
CO ended up with DC-9s via TI/Texas Air.

CO also took factory-delivery of 23 new DC-9s between 1966 and 1968. Most were -15RC convertibles with main-deck cargo door. Also a few -14 all passenger aircraft. AC acquired 8 of the -15RCs from CO in 1972/73 for a short-lived cargo venture although they were also operated in all-passenger configuration. They were all sold to Air Florida between 1977 and 1981.

The other factory-delivered CO DC-9s went to various other carriers (several to Hughes Airwest) after fairly brief service with CO.

910A · Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:51 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 28):
Pan Am flew the 747 domestically too and up until the very end. I flew it LAX-JFK in the summer of 1991.

Except for the fact, that Pan Am couldn't carry any domestic traffic on their flights until after deregulation so they were flying half empty 747's between SFO/LAX-JFK.

Viscount724 · Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting 910A (Reply 35):
Except for the fact, that Pan Am couldn't carry any domestic traffic on their flights until after deregulation

Except Hawaii, Alaska and US Territories (Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam etc.)

hOMSaR · Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:56 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 14):
Did NW/DL ever operate the 744 domestically on a scheduled domestic route after 2001? I am not aware of one but I did not pay much attention to NW routes.

Does ATL-HNL count? That flew with a 744 shortly after the merger.

TW870 · Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:16 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 32):
I remember that also I think it lasted for a long time or I am thinking of MEM-DTW instead, they probably did both over the years.

MSP never got regular MEM 747 service. The 747 served MSP-ORD, DTW, and SEA long term after deregulation. SEA was usually a through for NRT/SIN. ORD rotated the -7R4G2 powered airplanes up to MSP for maintenance, and DTW rotated the -400s in for maintenance. PHX also got some winter high season service in the late-80s with both -200s and the -400 when it was in proving runs. I flew ORD-MSP on a -200 in 1983, MSP-PHX on a -200 around 1987, MSP-DTW on a -400 in 1993, and MSP-SEA on a -7Q powered -200 in 1996.

Are there any schedules that show that MEM service to DTW? I just ask because MEM had no operational need for the 747, as it didn't rotate airplanes off of Asia or for maintenance. But I guess post-merger they could have used it at peak time to replace some DC-9 wingtip flights!

FlyPeoria · Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 31):
I think it was in 1986 . . . I flew a NW 747 from MEM to MSP. Don't know if that was a regular route with that equipment . . . .

I do have an OAG from sometime in 1987 (can't recall the month) that shows a NW 747 on the MSP-MEM route. Must have been MEM's only scheduled passenger 747 service in its history. Incidentally, I believe NW put DC-10s on MEM-DTW/MSP for awhile...

WA707atMSP · Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting TW870 (Reply 24):
Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):UA even famously operated 747s on ORD-CLE/PIT routes in the early 1970s!

This is not surprising though. Chicago was the financial capital of the midwest, and PIT and CLE were still huge manufacturing cities in the early-1970s.

Also, there were fewer flights from CLE and PIT to cities west of Chicago than there are now, and fewer hubs, so most people going from CLE and PIT to the Midwest / rocky mountains / west coast changed planes at ORD.

AA, NW, and UA flew 747s DTW-ORD for the same reason.

HawaiianBird · Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:10 pm

Quoting HomSAr (Reply 37):
Does ATL-HNL count? That flew with a 744 shortly after the merger.

DL also currently operates DL837/836 ATL-HNL-ATL with 744 for the summer season.

CO953 · Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:52 am

Quoting skymiler (Reply 10):
May be the 747 was too much for domestic routes, but it was FUN!

My note book shows I was on DL 46 SFO ATL on September 12, 1973 -- partying like a fool in the upper deck lounge! Even have the flight attendant's names and phone #'s -- (many were single in those days ..) wonder where they are now ...

I'm wondering if that flight made a stop at LAX and then maybe MSY>> I have a very old memory from when I was about 5 or 6 - but already an airplane nut - every summer my mom used to pack my younger brothers and me up and we'd fly from LAX to south Louisiana to spend a month with Paw Paw. One time we flew Delta - for the first time I think - and it was a 747. I remember thinking how huge it was. Boarding, the cabin door looked like a door going through a huge vertical wall! My little brother screamed the entire flight. But what I've always wondered is what route we took. As far as I know, we always flew either into IAH or MSY.

Did DL operate the 747 from LAX-MSY - or I wonder if we did get routed through Atlanta on some weird routing. I've always been just curious....

afcjets · Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting TW870 (Reply 38):
Are there any schedules that show that MEM service to DTW?

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 39):

I do have an OAG from sometime in 1987 (can't recall the month) that shows a NW 747 on the MSP-MEM route. Must have been MEM's only scheduled passenger 747 service in its history.

I was relying soley on a hazy memory and like I said I wasn't sure if it was MEM-MSP or MEM-DTW or both, it looks like it was MEM-MSP.

citationjet · Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:31 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 11):
All four of these airlines also had fleets of 727s - all except CO had 727-100 fleets.

CO had some in their fleet.

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