EK's Clark: US3 Are Messing With The Wrong People

UA444 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:53 pm

I really doubt anyone of the U.S. Executives are scared of his empty threats. Does anyone else think this guy looks like a darker version of Dan Castalanetta? Except not anywhere near as talented.

scbriml · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 36):
They are still limited in how much they can grow here. ME3 hubs are only good for Southeast Asia + India.

Not true. Just look at where their revenue is generated - a significant proportion comes from Europe.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 36):
I would also add Africa to the list.

And Europe connecting to just about all of Asia.

Rdh3e · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:04 pm

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 43):
1) Immediately end any negotiations with Boeing and enter negotiations for Airbii.

Another manufacturer based in a place with governments hostile to them?

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 43):
3) Assault the US markets with tons of advertising and cheap fares

This is incongruous with:

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 43):
4) Have the governments of Qatar and the UAE bar US corporations and the US government from both access to their countries and government contracts.

Which would result in them immediately being barred themselves....

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 43):
5) Bankroll the campaigns of a number of current reps in Congress and Senate.

And is illegal so good luck.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 53):
Not true. Just look at where their revenue is generated - a significant proportion comes from Europe.

Poster was referring to US-those places, not their overall importance. Ditto with the Africa comment.

[Edited 2015-06-09 11:05:42]

speedbored · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 45):
Not officially, but whenever a government is the sole shareholder there is an implied government guarantee. This applies to lots of airlines, not just EK, but it is still an advantage over privately held companies.

Absolutely not true. Unless it is written in the contract, there is no guarantee whatsoever. Why on earth would a government, especially one with as many debts as Dubai has, fork out cash to pay an unsecured EK loan when it could just walk away if things did go bad? No finance company, except maybe a loan shark, would ever reduce their rates on the basis of an unwritten implied guarantee.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 45):
Whether it could obtain financing at the excellent terms it does, the sort of terms that allow it to do things like order 50 A380s and 150 777s at one time, is less certain.

Well having been involved with many of their finance deals, I can categorically say that they would. Finance companies want to do deals with EK - they are one of the least risky airlines they could possibly do business with, and that has everything to do with how well run it is, and absolutely nothing to do with who owns it.

cougar15 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:06 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
VX/AS/B6 will think when the ME3 are serving the 30+ largest markets

Do VX,AS and B6 all only serve the top 30 US markets? really or get real

Might they feed (and enjoy every penny this partnership is adding to their bottom line...) from those ´provicial nests´ all over that great continent you do not consider ´top 30'? Hmm...

I dont even wanna read it all on thread 284 full of ´patrionisim' for the (fading) stars n stripes 3 monopoly Airlines. These so called US3 and a lot of happy sheep happy to eat straw instead of fresh luccious green grass... what a way to get rich!
" Stuff the product, who cares....." ,( the screwed consumer certainly will not as he is being a Patriot...... ) !

But make sure your number 1 Export earner keeps selling them those gorgeous flying machines!!

PS, just noticed the other thread that they might want some more tripple LR´s..... yes well
Wow!

[Edited 2015-06-09 11:15:03]

AirIndia · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 14):
Clark should be welcoming this inquiry if he thinks his company is clean. It will significantly impair his two biggest competitors who both have very obvious and extensive government subsidies.

Quote:
“Every single transaction ... if we have to open our cash books, if we happen to open our accounts payable, our accounts receivable, if we happen to open our stock account and the way we assess the value of our assets ... I have no problem,” Clark said.

http://gulfnews.com/business/aviatio...-clark-warns-us-carriers-1.1532551

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 51):
There is no way that's a profitable price for a roundtrip connection

is that something you think or believe or feel?

tortugamon · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 55):
Why on earth would a government, especially one with as many debts as Dubai has, fork out cash to pay an unsecured EK loan when it could just walk away if things did go bad?

It has been said that aviation will be ~38% of the GDP of Dubai by 2025 - anyone that thinks that Dubai would let EK - its namesake - go bankrupt is out of their mind. Whether its implied or outright stated is irrelevant really - to loan money to EK is to loan money to Dubai collateralized by EK's great assets. A secure loan indeed.

tortugamon

Rdh3e · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 55):
Absolutely not true. Unless it is written in the contract, there is no guarantee whatsoever. Why on earth would a government, especially one with as many debts as Dubai has, fork out cash to pay an unsecured EK loan when it could just walk away if things did go bad? No finance company, except maybe a loan shark, would ever reduce their rates on the basis of an unwritten implied guarantee.

Actually there are extensive studies about implied government guarantees and their distortion on loan rates. It was rampant during the dark times of the financial crisis in rates between the various US banks.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2012/wp12128.pdf

Abstract:
"Claimants to SIFIs receive transfers when governments are forced into bailouts. Ex ante,
the bailout expectation lowers daily funding costs. This funding cost differential reflects
both the structural level of the government support and the time-varying market valuation
for such a support. With large worldwide sample of banks, we estimate the structural
subsidy values by exploiting expectations of state support embedded in credit ratings and
by using long-run average value of rating bonus. It was already sizable, 60 basis points, as
of the end-2007, before the crisis. It increased to 80 basis points by the end-2009. "

speedbored · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 58):
collateralized by EK's great assets

This certainly helps but that is not at all a government guarantee. EKs assets are EKs assets.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 58):
It has been said that aviation will be ~38% of the GDP of Dubai by 2025 - anyone that thinks that Dubai would let EK - its namesake - go bankrupt is out of their mind. Whether its implied or outright stated is irrelevant really - to loan money to EK is to loan money to Dubai collateralized by EK's great assets. A secure loan indeed.

Not at all. Lenders are not stupid enough to believe that, if the aviation sector tanks so much that EK get anywhere close to bankruptcy, that the government of Dubai will actually have any funds spare to be able to prop it up, even should they want to.

People need to take a look at how much Debt Dubai has in other sectors, and the fact that Dubai has already had to grovel to Abu Dhabi to bail it out. Abu Dhabi have made it clear that they will not bail them out again.

The fact is, EK has been propping up Dubai. Dubai has not, and can not, prop up EK.

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 59):
It was rampant during the dark times of the financial crisis in rates between the various US banks.

What have bank bailouts got to do with it? EK is not a bank.

gatechae · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 40):
964 workers dies in Qatar in 2012 and 2013. That's 482/year. For fiscal year 2015, OSHA is reporting 803 worker deaths in the US and the fiscal year isn't over until 9/30/15.

Are you really comparing straight worker deaths in a country of 2.15 million population to a country of 321 million population??

Rdh3e · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 60):
What have bank bailouts got to do with it? EK is not a bank.

Systemically important institutions. Banks are the most recent example of an implied guarantee to a large institution. I would argue that EK is a systemically important institution for the emirate of Dubai, wouldn't you say that is correct?

AEROFAN · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting BoeingBear (Thread starter):

For Pete's sake, just ban EK from flying to the USA and be done with it.

ikramerica · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:37 pm

In his world:

Lack of unfettered growth = wiping off the earth.

What's going on exactly? Is an airline executive making threats? Or a as it sounds, an agent of a government making threats. Either way it's unprofessional, but it may indicate that he knows that things are being discovered that supports the US3 claims.

billreid · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:45 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 5):
Hey Tim, care to tell us what your cost of capital is? Oh, what's that? You have guaranteed zero interest loans for the youngest fleet in the world? Oh, OK.

Sorry but the USA signed an open skies agreement! If they aren't going to do what they dictated and signed with airline review then what value does any document EVER signed by the US have. Its all zimbabwe currency if they renege.

pvjin · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting Audian (Reply 34):
Its a weird thing to bring airline's practices and its ethics in to the equation. All I care is the fastest and cheapest option in the list to reach my destination. One additional thing I weigh in is the experience I had with an airline in the past.

With similar logic one shouldn't have an issue with child labour either, after all in most cases nobody forced those children to work. Indeed most people don't give a damn about ethics behind the product they buy, and that's why strong government and international regulations are needed to prevent businesses with unethical practices from operating.

In any case I'm not too fond of giving dictatorships too much control over anything here in the west. That applies to their airlines too.

ikramerica · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 65):

Bull. Treaties can be revoked or renegotiated when decades later it's evident that it's not beneficial to both sides in s balanced way.

PanAm1971 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 58):
It has been said that aviation will be ~38% of the GDP of Dubai by 2025 - anyone that thinks that Dubai would let EK - its namesake - go bankrupt is out of their mind. Whether its implied or outright stated is irrelevant really - to loan money to EK is to loan money to Dubai collateralized by EK's great assets. A secure loan indeed. tortugamon

Exactly. But that also means that this outburst is an attempt to get things back to where they should be-the negotiating table... and not a courtroom. And sorry business school people... politics WILL overrule everything here. Clark would not dare speak so bluntly without knowing he has the FULL backing of the UAE government. There's a lot at stake in this region politically... and frankly... Washington doesn't need more drama right now... nor does Boeing. The US3 could quickly find themselves in the cold.

Flighty · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:58 pm

I predict, VERY VERY cheap air service, Y and J, between USA-DXB for the next 5 years.

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 68):
The US3 could quickly find themselves in the cold.

Ridiculous. Our airline industry is based on centuries of business history. Although I suppose EK could say they descend from the Silk Road...

tortugamon · Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 56):
These so called US3 and a lot of happy sheep happy to eat straw instead of fresh luccious green grass... what a way to get rich!

I think if you look at the US airlines that are growing the fastest its airlines like Virgin America, JetBlue, Southwest and even the ULCC like Spirit and Allegiant. The US consumer is not happy with the US3 either and they are voting with their wallet.

Thankfully now that the US airlines are making money I do see some improvements in product quality. Customer service still leaves a lot to be desired.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 60):
EKs assets are EKs assets.

I did not state otherwise.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 60):
Not at all. Lenders are not stupid enough to believe that

And if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

tortugamon

PanAm1971 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:03 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 69):

I dispute that. Boeing matters more to DC than the US3 Boeing is a massive strategic asset. The US3 are not. The well being of Boeing will be protected.

billreid · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:09 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 67):
Bull. Treaties can be revoked or renegotiated when decades later it's evident that it's not beneficial to both sides in s balanced way.

Then why bother?
You abide by what you have written until you renegotiate it.
The problem is the utter arrogance of the US3 thinking they are true major airlines. They are non-competitive domestic carriers. Truth be told how many foreigners chose UA over LH, Dl over KL, AA over BA?

I think the true key here is where do the US3 rate in terms of product? Top 100 maybe. Top 20 not a chance.
People would fly the US3 if they delivered, but they do not and they are insistent to blame others.
Its Blah, Blah, Blah.
The US used to be a capitalistic market, it is now a protectionist aviation market with sub-standard quality needing to be protected to survive.

If you do reject what you negotiated do you not unravel the entire alliance system. Kill one open skies where the US carriers don't even fly and the whole mess of cards might come tumbling down.

Flighty · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 71):
I dispute that. Boeing matters more to DC than the US3 Boeing is a massive strategic asset. The US3 are not. The well being of Boeing will be protected.

Oh I don't suggest our airlines will be protected or should be. Just that they are formidable. I don't presume EK has any right to fly from the USA to any country except the UAE. As such, its importance is small to us. And likely decreasing over time.

If EK tries to fly JFK-LHR and similar, that's probably not going to happen so I don't understand what they are so emotional about.

Rdh3e · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:14 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 72):

Your posts have me like

All these hypocritcal arguments, and the part where you say that "the part that really matters is product". I almost died! So funny, seriously. And the part where the worlds three largest airlines are not "true major airlines". Pure comedic genius.

TeamintheSky · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:14 pm

So many arguments (and posters on here) are reused on every 1 out of 5 threads these days.

Basically, if you are sympathetic to the US3 position, you think that the US government through policy should try to place the ME3 carriers on a more "fair" playing field with the US carriers. However, in these days of offshoring where all but very skilled and technical manufacturing has moved out of the US for cheaper shores, why isn't aviation the next step? You get up in arms about aviation, but don't mind you are wearing clothes from a Bangladeshi sweatshop.

For those that are sympathetic to the ME3, the basic argument is some deluded sense that they aren't completely propped up by the government (through hugely favorable tax laws, public spending, public support, and labor friendly laws) and the US3 should just raise their standards to compete (which they cannot given the laws in which they are required to operate).

Neither side is right, and like all things, hopefully a middle ground will be struck where the US3 will be able to compete on a more even basis (whether that be loosing labor laws, providing friendly government-backed financing, more friendly visa and transit policy to encourage people to transit via the US, more public/private or wholly private airports for nicer passenger experience, or some sort of super tax relief) and the ME3 will be at least reigned in by the pressure if nothing else with some standard of fare neutrality so they cannot simply fly loss making routes (however, out of London, the ME3 are never the cheapest).

Even the middle ground is nebulous and unlikely though, which is why it feels like both sides are fighting a losing battle.

Regards,

Team

PanAm1971 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 72):
The US used to be a capitalistic market, it is now a protectionist aviation market with sub-standard quality needing to be protected to survive

That's not quite fair. Both sides are using all the assets available to them. This isn't a game. That's why some cooler... more adult heads will have to step in and start to sort this out.

ikramerica · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 74):

How about "you abide by it until you renegotiate." That's what's happening. But renegotiating doesn't happen in a vacuum. The interested parties puff out their chests first.

tortugamon · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:26 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 68):
The US3 could quickly find themselves in the cold.

They could but honestly I don't think the ME3 expansion will hurt the US3 that much anyway. For some carriers they are net benefit (B6, AS, AA etc).

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 71):
Boeing matters more to DC than the US3 Boeing is a massive strategic asset. The US3 are not. The well being of Boeing will be protected.

Senators from Texas and IL and GA are probably more sensitive to the ~300,000+ aviation employees and their votes than Boeing's position as a defense contractor.

Truth is both are important.

I agree that politics will play a big role here.

Quoting billreid (Reply 72):
The US used to be a capitalistic market, it is now a protectionist aviation market with sub-standard quality needing to be protected to survive.

Not sure where you get this from. How is the US market protectionist? Who isn't able to fly to the US?

On routes I fly I have at least 6 airlines to chose from and at least 4 airlines operating direct flights.

The North American aviation market will account for half of the global commercial aviation profit. Why do they need to be protected to survive? How does EK change that?

tortugamon

mcogator · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:26 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 49):
This past saturday, I ran into two passengers on the security line in BOS Terminal C ... they were flying BOS-DXB-JNB. I was quite surprised ... not sure if they are anomalies ... but I think for the right price, these connections will increase more and more

Not EK, but my friend is flying EY SFO-AUH-HKT today.

[Edited 2015-06-09 12:27:39]

29erUSA187 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting TeamintheSky (Reply 32):
but the US3 sit in the US market and the ME3 have far more to lose.

No. If the ME3 gain EU-US rights, the US3 will feel it. TATL is a source bread and butter for the US3, and without it, they will suffer. The ME3 needs to stay on its own continent, in its own hubs. Can you imagine how ticked off Clark would be if AA tried to operate DXB-BOM? or DXB-LHR?

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 40):
964 workers dies in Qatar in 2012 and 2013. That's 482/year. For fiscal year 2015, OSHA is reporting 803 worker deaths in the US and the fiscal year isn't over until 9/30/15.

How much bigger is the US population than the Qatari Population though? You have to look at everything proportionally

PanAm1971 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 78):
They could but honestly I don't think the ME3 expansion will hurt the US3 that much anyway. For some carriers they are net benefit (B6, AS, AA etc).

That is one reason I'm so perplexed (as I'm sure much of the beltway is) by the "go for the jugular" nature of the US3 argument.

seabosdca · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 72):
The problem is the utter arrogance of the US3 thinking they are true major airlines.

Right... the three largest airlines in the world, by any measure you care to name, are not "true major airlines."

Quoting billreid (Reply 72):
The US used to be a capitalistic market, it is now a protectionist aviation market with sub-standard quality needing to be protected to survive.

The US is one of the least protectionist aviation markets on earth.

cougar15 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 80):
Can you imagine how ticked off Clark would be if AA tried to operate DXB-BOM? or DXB-LHR?

Sir Tim would lie over laughing, add some caviar to the Ticka Masala in Y and that would be the end of it for reasons of Service Levels!
on that note, they are welcome to do so, DXB is an open market in respect to this sort of thing........!

SelseyBill · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
I wonder what VX/AS/B6 will think when the ME3 are serving the 30+ largest markets in the U.S. and no longer need feed, or not as much as they do today?

I wonder what VX/AS/B6/AA/DL/UA would say if Clark speaks to those nice people in Montreal about a 200+ CS300 order for a new domestic airline in the USA similar to what Branson did with VX ?

" Emirates-USA " anybody ?

cougar15 · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 84):
if Clark speaks to those nice people in Montreal about a 200+ CS300 order for a new domestic airline in the USA similar to what Branson did with VX ?

I would run out of Popcorn! Now that would be a laugh for all of us on this very platform! Daily Blockbusters!

goosebayguy · Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:53 pm

America hates competition. Just look at how Boeing ran a campaign against Concorde by getting a fake protest going. Its airlines have not invested enough in new aircraft and average fleet ages are woeful. Then they all received heavy subsidies after 9/11. Oh and they hate to give good service because the cost would be so great. EK use modern aircraft give great service and make massive profits every year.

slider · Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 40):
Ah. That argument...remind me what kind of interest rates the Fed has set in the US and what the cost of borrowing here in the US is for MANY businesses, but especially banks.

Don't confuse Fed interest rates with commercial bank capital lending costs. And since you put it out there, I'll let you do the research as to what any of the US majors are paying for some of their aircraft interest rates. And take a gander at EETCs while you're at it.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 43):
The US will understand only one language. And yapping in public isn't it.

You'd be a terrible negotiator with that sort of scorched earth approach, IMHO.

Quoting TeamintheSky (Reply 75):
Neither side is right,

A very reasonable and rational post. And yet both sides are also right to a degree.

tortugamon · Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:11 pm

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 86):
America hates competition.

Who actually likes competition?

Honestly, I don't blame the US3. They are using the tools at their disposal to make more money for their shareholders. That is what they are supposed to do. One of those tools is politics and when you have that many employees your comments are listened to.

And I don't see this only as a US3 issue. Many countries are limiting the ME3s growth: Canada, Germany, Netherlands, India, and China all come to mind.

tortugamon

Armodeen · Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 6):

Over 1200 dead in Qatar to date. Just building stadiums. For FIFA. So enjoy your football. And your cheap business class seat.

This has been shown to be nonsense. Yes lots of people are dying in Qatar but it isn't (yet) building the stadiums...hell they only just started the first one!

mcogator · Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 69):

I predict, VERY VERY cheap air service, Y and J, between USA-DXB for the next 5 years.

So Dubai wins in either scenario? The tourism and hotel industry there will love it. Heck, I flew DL to DXB in March for $700 AI, and I wouldn't have ever gone if not for the fare.

sierra3tango · Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 82):
The US is one of the least protectionist aviation markets on earth.

What about maximum shareholding?

DL buys 49% of VS, remind me of the maximum 'foreign' holding in a US airline like say VX - is it 24%?
Plus all the hoops VX management had to jump through

thekorean · Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 91):

More countries have similar laws than those who do not.

Hell look at EU.

airbazar · Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 56):
Do VX,AS and B6 all only serve the top 30 US markets? really or get real Might they feed (and enjoy every penny this partnership is adding to their bottom line...) from those ´provicial nests´ all over that great continent you do not consider ´top 30'? Hmm...

The point is, as the ME3 expand in the U.S. they will need less feed and therefore will have the upper hand in any negotiation with the likes of VX/B6/AS. It's not a matter of IF but a matter of when the ME3 will start to land in places like RDU, BWI, DTW, DEN, LAS.
For example, MCO and DTW are 2 of the top connecting market for EK in BOS. They just announced MCO. DTW won't be too far behind.

Quoting billreid (Reply 65):
Sorry but the USA signed an open skies agreement! If they aren't going to do what they dictated and signed with airline review then what value does any document EVER signed by the US have.

No agreement is permanent.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 67):
Bull. Treaties can be revoked or renegotiated when decades later it's evident that it's not beneficial to both sides in s balanced way.

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 80):
No. If the ME3 gain EU-US rights, the US3 will feel it.

They will feel it but lets remember that the US carriers make their money in the domestic market, and a great deal of their international market is inherently protected from the ME3 carriers by geography: Europe, Mexico, Brazil and even East Asia. I actually think that the Chinese carriers pose a greater risk to the future of US carriers.

747megatop · Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
It's pretty hard to compete against companies that play by different rules

That is called globalisation my friend. Different currenices, different laws, different labor costs etc.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
main centers of modern day slavery.

Never been to qatar and not trying to defend it...but doesn't strike me as a place where folks are being forced to work with gun toting guards walking around and treatening people with death if they don't work; because to see that kind of slavery you would have to go to the diamond mines of Africa - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-18109186
Otherwise, what you classify as modern day slavery is very much seen all accross US, Europe, Asia etc. Where do you think the construction, agriculture and meat packing labor comes from?

mayor · Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:49 pm

Maybe I missed something, but what prompted this tantrum by Clark? Somebody say something about his mother, sister or wife?

747megatop · Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
one of the main centers of modern day slavery.

One more thing, since you mention that...i think you should brush up your knowledge and know that the primary beneficiaries in terms of profits per victim of slavery is the western world; Source - http://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-...ews/WCMS_243201/lang--en/index.htm [look at the 2nd bar graph under the title "Annual profit per victim of forced labor per region (US $)].
When folks use "slave labor" as an argument in the US3 vs ME3 discussion what it tells me is that slave labor is ok as long as our profits are going up and we get the nice goods & services that come with it("slave labor") cheaply. But the same "slave labor" is not ok and becomes a bad thing when the competition kicks butt and puts us out of business LoL. Kind of a lame argument if you ask me.

JAAlbert · Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:26 pm

It's a shame the debate between the two groups has descended to personal attacks. Debate the matters in dispute, but jeez, try and keep it on a professional level, Mr. CEOs.

tortugamon · Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:38 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 93):
The point is, as the ME3 expand in the U.S. they will need less feed

That sounds backwards to me.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 93):
For example, MCO and DTW are 2 of the top connecting market for EK in BOS. They just announced MCO.

MCO is a B6 focus city/hub. They also added a frequency to BOS.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 94):
Never been to qatar and not trying to defend it...but doesn't strike me as a place where folks are being forced to work with gun toting guards walking around and treatening people with death if they don't work

Some info about Qatar: http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2014/country-chapters/qatar

The endentured servants mentioned there has also been a problem in Dubai. Vice did an interesting piece about the 'slaves' of Dubai: http://www.vice.com/video/the-slaves-of-dubai

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 96):
When folks use "slave labor" as an argument in the US3 vs ME3 discussion what it tells me is that slave labor is ok as long as our profits are going up and we get the nice goods & services that come with it("slave labor") cheaply.

Slave labor is never ok; who is saying that it is ok? Just because it happens in one region doesn't mean its ok for it to happen in another. Its a problem everywhere and needs to be eradicated everywhere even if that society is filled with hypocrites as you suggest.

tortugamon

aaexecplat · Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:49 am

Quoting gatechae (Reply 59):
Are you really comparing straight worker deaths in a country of 2.15 million population to a country of 321 million population??

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 78):
How much bigger is the US population than the Qatari Population though? You have to look at everything proportionally

I am not comparing the headcount based on population. You did. What should be looked at is the headcount relative to infrastructure building activity. Maybe infrastructure spending is the best approximator? In either case, I'd be willing to bet that if you look at it that way that the US headcount looks far less flattering (I don't excuse the Qatari headcount in the least).

Quoting Slider (Reply 85):
Don't confuse Fed interest rates with commercial bank capital lending costs. And since you put it out there, I'll let you do the research as to what any of the US majors are paying for some of their aircraft interest rates. And take a gander at EETCs while you're at it.

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. My point is not to compare US/UAE cost of capital...simply that cost of capital is historically low for US businesses because banks can borrow at effectively zero from the Fed and lending therefore is less risky for them. The airlines and other businesses are beneficiaries.

Quoting Slider (Reply 85):
You'd be a terrible negotiator with that sort of scorched earth approach, IMHO.

Rules of negotiation.... Know when negotiating makes sense and has a chance of succeeding. And know your leverage. Right now, the ME3 are dealing with an adversary that is uninterested in reason or logic and is trying to hurt them. The US3 have proven that they are willing to lie to get their way. I believe the ME3 have no upside in negotiating. Scorched earth on the other hand has much better odds of success, IMO.

thekorean · Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:52 am

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 97):

If you want to say US3 are being greedy and territorial thats fine, but illogical? Come on now.

They clearly see something us Plebeans can't. They don't print money by being dumb and tolerant.

mayor · Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:13 am

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 82):

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
I wonder what VX/AS/B6 will think when the ME3 are serving the 30+ largest markets in the U.S. and no longer need feed, or not as much as they do today?

I wonder what VX/AS/B6/AA/DL/UA would say if Clark speaks to those nice people in Montreal about a 200+ CS300 order for a new domestic airline in the USA similar to what Branson did with VX ?

" Emirates-USA " anybody ?

Think the DOT & DOJ would give the ok? Who would own it? Wouldn't it have to be U.S. owned?

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 84):
America hates competition. Just look at how Boeing ran a campaign against Concorde by getting a fake protest going. Its airlines have not invested enough in new aircraft and average fleet ages are woeful. Then they all received heavy subsidies after 9/11. Oh and they hate to give good service because the cost would be so great. EK use modern aircraft give great service and make massive profits every year.

Good Grief!!! How many more new a/c do the airlines have to have on the order books for people to quit with this myth? Average fleet ages are going down, ever so slowly, but they are going down. As for service, DL alone has spent billions in the last few years, just on service improvements and refurbishing a/c. And before we trumpet those massive profits that EK receive, you might want to check on those profits made by U.S. carriers......more and more every year......RECORD profits every year.

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