New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 160

NZ107 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:33 am

Next headline: "JQ takes on Air Chathams on WLG/CHC-CHT"

CHCalfonzo · Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:27 am

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 147):
Not necessarily. A lot of the current regional flying done by NZ is done with overnight crews. NZ regionals have larger bases in the 3 main centres with most of the regional ports using crews in the hotel for the night.

True for Mount Cook crews, they're all CHC and AKL based. Air Nelson bases aircraft and crews in regional cities though.

I think it's highly likely JQ will stick to their two crew bases in AKL and CHC, I was more interested in where the aircraft will overnight.

ZKSUJ · Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:54 am

Quoting CHCalfonzo (Reply 151):
Air Nelson bases aircraft and crews in regional cities though.

Still more Q's overnight elsewhere than actually at the regional bases. In fact if you look at some of the bases, they have more ATR's over nighting there than Q's

aerorobnz · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 118):
But - sneer away. One day someone will write a book about what the wives of the Empire builders had to contend with.

You should write it, I would love to read it.

Gasman · Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:37 pm

Is too much being made of this?

"Airline Price War!!" was emblazened across the front of the print version of the New Zealand Herald this morning. Now, I acknowledge we're a small country and media outlets are not exactly spoiled for choice when it comes to hot news stories - but we are talking a total of five turboprob aircraft being added to a regional network. Sure, it'll shift the equilibrium a bit.... but "Airline price War" - you'd get the impression EK and UA are going head to head across the Atlantic.

That NZ's share price dropped 10% on the news - I would also have said was an over-reaction.

Unless, of course, there is a perception that this is the thin end of the wedge - that this move by Jetstar is the precursor to something bigger. It's hard to imagine what - the only New Zealand market which doesn't now seem saturated with carriers would be AKL-USA, or perhaps some Pacific Island destinations which have historically been overpriced. AKL-NAN, for example, while it isn't a monoploy, has always functioned like one with NZ/FJ co-existing in a duoploy. JQ on a route like this would be a game changer.

NZ107 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:43 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 154):
That NZ's share price dropped 10% on the news - I would also have said was an over-reaction.

It's recovered 5.5 cents already in less than an hour of trading.. But I suppose that's what happens when an airline's monopoly is threatened

If this caused a 10% drop in the share price, imagine what AA announcing AKL-LAX would do!

PA515 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:58 pm

And in other Jetstar News ....

Stranded for 24 hours: Jetstar passengers furious
http://nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11467804

Also VH-VFJ spent the night in DUD. It arrived DUD from AKL as JQ285 at 1603 but JQ284 DUD-AKL was cancelled. It's presently en route to AKL as JST7242. Can't be weather related.

PA515

Gasman · Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:58 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 155):
If this caused a 10% drop in the share price, imagine what AA announcing AKL-LAX would do!

Indeed!! In no way, shape or form did NZ's true value drop by 10% yesterday. That's the sharemarket for you. It's based on perception and emotion, not reality. But yes, if/when AA announce AKL-LAX, imagine the hordes of BMW M3 drivers screaming "sell!!!" down the phone to their brokers.

mariner · Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 155):
IIf this caused a 10% drop in the share price, imagine what AA announcing AKL-LAX would do!

That's partly priced in already

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 2):
"Threat of competition hits Air NZ stock"

Shares fall 5 per cent after American Airlines deal with Qantas but travel rep says move would boost overall market.

mariner

NZ107 · Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:24 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 158):
That's partly priced in already

Partly, yes.. But the overall impact of a proper announcement of AKL-LAX (rather than SYD-LAX plus some talk about opening AKL-LAX) would surely have as much impact as JQ bringing 5 Q300s across to fly a few routes. The targeting of 4 regional airports is only a small piece too.

mariner · Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:48 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 159):
Partly, yes

That's all I claimed for it.

My own adventures in the (US) stock market suggest to me that buyers who are in profit are always looking for a reason to sell, to realise that profit, and the "first shock" - of competitive issues" say - is the nasty, setting up a sellers market, however briefly.

The share price of Air NZ was getting quite frothy and I wasn't surprised that the news about American was taken as a reason to sell. The Qantas/Jetstar news only compounded this and bought more (in profit) sellers out and probable ly a few side-liners.

I'm hanging fire considering at what price point I may jump for a few (a very few) more Air NZ shares and I'm wondering if I might have missed the best trigger point, given the mild but moderately good recovery today.

But hey - I've been wrong before.

mariner

NZ107 · Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:21 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 160):

I can't see the bottom line being affected until the competition starts.. Which means about a couple more reports of rosy monopolisation left.

mariner · Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 161):
I can't see the bottom line being affected until the competition starts.. Which means about a couple more reports of rosy monopolisation left.

I suppose I'm mostly interested now in seeing how Air NZ reacts to this. I'm assuming there will be some reaction, but it's a bit different from, say, Virgin (Pacific) Blue's foray into NZ domestic.

mariner

mariner · Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 162):
I suppose I'm mostly interested now in seeing how Air NZ reacts to this.

This is the first commentary by Air NZ that I've seen, and it's exactly what we might expect:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/busine...-to-%27fight-hard%27,-slash-prices

"Air NZ to 'fight hard', slash prices

Air New Zealand's chief commercial and sales officer Cam Wallace said the national carrier would fight hard, and it would meet Jetstar's prices.

"We'll be meeting the market, so we'll be absolutely price competitive. We won't be in a scenario where our competitor is underpricing us," he said."

I'm wondering if there will be anything more - something a bit more out of the box.

mariner

Gasman · Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:44 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 163):
"We'll be meeting the market, so we'll be absolutely price competitive. We won't be in a scenario where our competitor is underpricing us," he said."

Which is predictable. So why, then, should Jetstar enter into a price war to the bottom, where fares remain the same between the two carriers? The answer is, they won't.

It reminds me of when Ansett entered the New Zealand market in the 1980's. Prices didn't change much at all, just enough to stimulate the market. What did change - and change dramatically - was service, and product quality. Which can be more of an issue than one might think in the regions. I had a shocking experience at HKK a few years ago, one that I'm quite certain would not have occurred had a competitor been on the scene.

mariner · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:12 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 164):
What did change - and change dramatically - was service, and product quality.

Then, yes. Then, Ansett was setting out to be what Ben Sandilands of Crikey once memorably called "the royal barge of airlines."

I'm not sure that's so true of Jetstar.

mariner

ZKSUJ · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:17 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 164):
Prices didn't change much at all, just enough to stimulate the market. What did change - and change dramatically - was service, and product quality.

Hit the nail on the head, monopoly = complacency and doing what you please. I'm not saying NZ are bad because they aren't, but I'm sure many have noticed small cuts being made and things changing. I know people go on about 10 abreast in the 777 and stuff but I would have imagined NZ would have thought twice about it had there been competition (not an alliance like SQ or CX) on the USA routes with a superior product, just an example.

Gasman · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 165):
I'm not sure that's so true of Jetstar.

No, but you get what I mean about a regional fare war being a fairly pointless exercise for either carrier. The experience I had at HKK that I alluded to above was very much a case of "well if you don't like it you can walk" kind of attitude. Possibly a one-off, but the sort of thing I'd expect never to happen if there was a competitor's counter a few metres away in the terminal.

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 166):
I know people go on about 10 abreast in the 777 and stuff but I would have imagined NZ would have thought twice about it had there been competition (not an alliance like SQ or CX) on the USA routes with a superior product, just an example.

I thought it was a bold move too, especially with QF having a fleet of 744s and A380's not far away. The travelling public would certainly notice the difference between those aircraft and a 777.

mariner · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 167):
No, but you get what I mean about a regional fare war being a fairly pointless exercise for either carrier.

Pointless or not, I suspect it may happen.

mariner

qf2220 · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:35 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 163):
Air New Zealand's chief commercial and sales officer Cam Wallace said the national carrier would fight hard, and it would meet Jetstar's prices.

Now why would they do this? If NZ is a full service carrier and JQ is low cost, why not have prices just that bit above JQ to reflect that?

mariner · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting Qf2220 (Reply 169):
Now why would they do this? If NZ is a full service carrier and JQ is low cost, why not have prices just that bit above JQ to reflect that?

To try and make life unhappy for Jetstar, I guess.

mariner

qf2220 · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:47 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 170):

The Nash equilibrium here is for a duopoly to develop. Why not just go there now...

mariner · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting Qf2220 (Reply 171):
The Nash equilibrium here is for a duopoly to develop. Why not just go there now...

I;m not sure that Air NZ is playing by that concept. The airline may see it as:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RenRILqwhJs

A company will always try and protect its base. No one said it had to be fair.

mariner

[Edited 2015-06-19 17:57:29]

qf2220 · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:58 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 172):

Brilliant!

zkncj · Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:24 am

Quoting Qf2220 (Reply 169):
Now why would they do this? If NZ is a full service carrier and JQ is low cost, why not have prices just that bit above JQ to reflect that?

Not sure when you last flew NZ short-haul; but they are far from full service and boarding on LCC.

Short Haul International:
http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/tasma...-and-islands-service-seats-to-suit

NZ uses an very LCC style on these services, base fares don't include bags, drinks, food and movies. If you want any of these extras you have to buy an package e.g. the Works or pay onboard e.g $10 for movie access.

Domestic:
Only Tea/Coffee/Water is served, apart from 4-7 weekdays on the A320s where wine/beer is added. Checked bags are an extra $10 on base fares.

777ER · Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:15 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 163):
"Air NZ to 'fight hard', slash prices

As per what is expected when competition arrives

Quoting zkncj (Reply 174):

I wouldn't say NZ is bordering on LCC service. NZ feel that providing an option is a good idea - to which I agree with. The interesting part is when QF match NZs LCC style 'seat' option with the full service offering. NZ offer a good 'Works' and 'Works Deluxe' service which is the same or even better then what QF offer.

In relation to Domestic, this is nothing new and airlines like QF, VA, UA, DL, AC etc have all adjusted their routes to better match what other airlines do. The airlines have adjusted their service offering to suit the length of their flights so again this is nothing new! At least NZ offer a snack which is actually better then what UA, DL, AC etc serve

777ER · Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:26 am

A regional airline is dismissing Air New Zealand's claim that smaller operators cannot afford to set up an interline agreement.

Air Chathams now flies in and out of Whakatane in Air New Zealand's absence, and said it could afford to set up a system to link the two airlines.

Chief executive officer Craig Emeny said it had had interline agreements with Air New Zealand before

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nation...rline-says-it-can-afford-agreement

xiaotung · Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:44 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 176):

A regional airline is dismissing Air New Zealand's claim that smaller operators cannot afford to set up an interline agreement.

What good does it do when NZ won't even interline their own if ticketed separately.

qf2220 · Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:54 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 174):

There are still more inclusions on NZ than JQ (assuming JQ levels of service), plus the interconnectivity with NZ services etc etc etc that NZ could charge a premium for.

zkncj · Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:40 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 177):
What good does it do when NZ won't even interline their own if ticketed separately.

Best outcome would possibly be that NZ codeshares on the service, then passengers could book an single ticket to onwards destinations.

777ER · Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 177):

You can't expect an interline when you book your tickets separately! Interline is when you book your tickets as one. If I book an NZ itinerary to LAX and then a separate UA ticket onwards, I've got to pick up my bags and walk to the UA terminal to drop off my bags and receive my onwards boarding pass as its not pat of the same booking

xiaotung · Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:34 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 180):
You can't expect an interline when you book your tickets separately! Interline is when you book your tickets as one. If I book an NZ itinerary to LAX and then a separate UA ticket onwards, I've got to pick up my bags and walk to the UA terminal to drop off my bags and receive my onwards boarding pass as its not pat of the same booking

Yes you can and many airlines do it. When you return from the States, UA would be happy to thru check bags onto your NZ flight to AKL. Their recent policy is to thru check bags onto any Star partners even on separate tickets.

In your example, picking up bags at LAX is a Customs requirement not an interline issue.

777ER · Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:58 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 181):

How long has this been happening as each time I've tried to, I've been told it can't happen as its a separate ticket?

Yes LAX you need to pick up your bags but once past Customs you drop your bags off instantly at baggage transfer

xiaotung · Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:11 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 182):
How long has this been happening as each time I've tried to, I've been told it can't happen as its a separate ticket?

Since forever? They used to do it with any airline they had an interline agreement with but recently they have changed their policy to Star partners only.

SQ do thru check bags on separate tickets with any interline airline as well. NZ are an odd one where they don't even do it with their own tickets but it would appear they are now allowing separate ticket thru check in at their AKL Premium check in counters for premium customers only.

zkojq · Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:21 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 136):
Is there even a "them" yet?? Or just Ewan and a website?

There were some investors, weren't there? They'll have probably been pulling money back yesterday afternoon. I'm not sure how long Ewan has been working on KRA; presumably there is a lot of hours spend studying markets, getting CAA paperwork in order etc. All a shame if it will be for nothing, even though the venture was incredibly unlikely to be successful.

Quoting keen2fly (Reply 137):
Yeah, but he was silly if he thought he could go up against NZ again. Initially it looked like they'd stay in the regions, but his plan developed into something that, while not direct competition, probably was too close for comfort and would have triggered a reaction in NZ to squish him again.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 155):
If this caused a 10% drop in the share price, imagine what AA announcing AKL-LAX would do!

Exactly.

Quoting gasman (Reply 157):
But yes, if/when AA announce AKL-LAX, imagine the hordes of BMW M3 drivers screaming "sell!!!" down the phone to their brokers.

ZKSUJ · Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 182):
How long has this been happening as each time I've tried to, I've been told it can't happen as its a separate ticket?

Not new man, just the other day bags check for a passenger on an NZ service and transfered through to QF for them. Just had to pick up a boarding pass at the international airport which is 2 mins, but bags all the way through

zkeoj · Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:22 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 180):
Interline is when you book your tickets as one. If I book an NZ itinerary to LAX and then a separate UA ticket onwards, I've got to pick up my bags and walk to the UA terminal to drop off my bags and receive my onwards boarding pass as its not pat of the same booking

Quoting 777ER (Reply 182):
How long has this been happening as each time I've tried to, I've been told it can't happen as its a separate ticket?

Just as others said: They have done it for ages. The only thing is that in most cases you have to ask for it! And if they say no, you have to tell them that they can do it. They then call their supervisor, and then they do it. Not sure if it is laziness of the check-in agents, or lack of knowledge/training for such cases, but more often than not they don't do it immediately...

bbbb · Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 185):
Just as others said: They have done it for ages. The only thing is that in most cases you have to ask for it! And if they say no, you have to tell them that they can do it. They then call their supervisor, and then they do it. Not sure if it is laziness of the check-in agents, or lack of knowledge/training for such cases, but more often than not they don't do it immediately...

To clarify, NZ has to have an interline agreement with the airline in question for them to be able to do this.

PA515 · Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:37 am

'Australian Aviation' reports Chris Luxon saying Air NZ will probably keep 763's for another two years beyond the already extended retirement date of FY2018, to serve the Pacific Islands, Australia, and some leisure destinations. Doesn't say how many 763's will be kept.

Not providing a link as it's a subscription website, but a google search finds the article.

PA515

Zkpilot · Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:59 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 188):
'Australian Aviation' reports Chris Luxon saying Air NZ will probably keep 763's for another two years beyond the already extended retirement date of FY2018, to serve the Pacific Islands, Australia, and some leisure destinations. Doesn't say how many 763's will be kept.

Not providing a link as it's a subscription website, but a google search finds the article.

PA515

imagine if they had kept 2 more! They're a great workhorse.

Gasman · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:04 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 189):
imagine if they had kept 2 more! They're a great workhorse.

And wonderful from a passenger viewpoint.

Imagine a 767 fully kitted out with modern IFE, and a 1-2-1 forward facing lie flat J config. Would be a dream.

[Edited 2015-06-21 02:13:15]

xiaotung · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:32 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 188):
'Australian Aviation' reports Chris Luxon saying Air NZ will probably keep 763's for another two years beyond the already extended retirement date of FY2018, to serve the Pacific Islands, Australia, and some leisure destinations. Doesn't say how many 763's will be kept.

Not providing a link as it's a subscription website, but a google search finds the article.

PA515

When they introduced PE on short haul international routes the other day, they said that PE would be introduced to DPS. I take it to mean they will put 789 on this route. I don't think 763 will stay on HNL for too long either. So what leisure destinations are they talking about?

NZ107 · Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:08 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 191):

I wonder if MNL is in the planning.. Though surely it's as leisurely as DPS. Maybe they'll remove the front section of Y and install Y+ there - kinda like how Space+ used to fit there before they added an extra row...

PA515 · Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:54 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 191):
When they introduced PE on short haul international routes the other day, they said that PE would be introduced to DPS. I take it to mean they will put 789 on this route.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 192):
Maybe they'll remove the front section of Y and install Y+ there - kinda like how Space+ used to fit there before they added an extra row...

Or just sell the Business Class seats as Premium Economy.

Wondered if keeping at least two 763's until 2020 will see them repainted.

PA515

Zkpilot · Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:06 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 193):

Wondered if keeping at least two 763's until 2020 will see them repainted.

PA515

they must be making decent coin from them seeing as how a small fleet of them adds costs by having multiple fleet types.

mariner · Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:32 am

Here's an interesting one - Air NZ is selling Safe Air to Airbus:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...sells-blenheims-safe-air-to-airbus

"Air New Zealand sells Blenheim's Safe Air to Airbus

Air New Zealand has signed a conditional agreement to sell its Blenheim-based maintenance subsidiary Safe Air to the Australian arm of European aviation giant Airbus.

Airbus Group Australia Pacific is a major supplier to the Australian Defence Forces.

Safe Air provides engineering support for military and commercial customers, including the Royal New Zealand Air Force.

"This is a fantastic outcome for Safe Air and its employees, with Airbus able to provide guidance, direction and the resources that will increase its capabilities and contribute to its growth. This in turn will have a positive impact on the local economy."

mariner

zkncj · Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:39 am

Looks like the New Zealand media is picking over Jetstar since the regional announcement

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...cing-slammed-by-consumer-nz-survey

"More than 90 per cent of people want Jetstar to ditch the opt-out pricing methods used in its online booking process, a survey has found.

Consumer advocate Consumer NZ has been running a "ditch the ticks" campaign calling on Jetstar to stop using pre-ticked boxes for travel insurance, seat selection and check-in baggage.

On a return flight from Auckland to Wellington, the Jetstar service charges would add $42.95 to the fare. "

zkncj · Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:42 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 195):
Here's an interesting one - Air NZ is selling Safe Air to Airbus:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...sells-blenheims-safe-air-to-airbus

"Air New Zealand sells Blenheim's Safe Air to Airbus

Air New Zealand has signed a conditional agreement to sell its Blenheim-based maintenance subsidiary Safe Air to the Australian arm of European aviation giant Airbus.

Airbus Group Australia Pacific is a major supplier to the Australian Defence Forces.

Safe Air provides engineering support for military and commercial customers, including the Royal New Zealand Air Force.

"This is a fantastic outcome for Safe Air and its employees, with Airbus able to provide guidance, direction and the resources that will increase its capabilities and contribute to its growth. This in turn will have a positive impact on the local economy."

Interesting being that NZ started up an new company a couple months back called Air New Zealand Regional Engineering that has taken over the ATR/Q300 work in NSN.

Such sale to airbus could mean there is an A400 order on its way from the RNZAF?

Even maybe an Asia Pacific region ATR assembly factory? production line in France is packed for years, and with an large amount of orders from Asia Pacific.

Gasman · Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:26 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 197):
Such sale to airbus could mean there is an A400 order on its way from the RNZAF?

Please, for the love of heaven, no. Does every military purchase this country makes have to be a mechanically inept white elephant?

This is intriguing.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11469259

Firstly - is this news? Secondly - what is a "digital chief"?? You'd think some sort of global IT expert, but the article hints at some sort of social media nerd. I guess now that Rob Fyfe has gone, that position's vacant..........

zkncj · Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 198):
Please, for the love of heaven, no. Does every military purchase this country makes have to be a mechanically inept white elephant?

Atleast local support would be near by

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