David Neeleman Wins TAP

redzeppelin · Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:38 pm

My big question is if the new TAP might try to overfly Portugal on some routes, connecting Brazil and/or USA markets directly to other European cities. They are allowed to do so under EU law, correct? For example, could they work with JetBlue to cherry-pick routes from JFK/BOS/FLL to popular European destinations, relying primarily on B6 hubs for feed?

VCPJetter · Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting gatibosgru (Reply 41):

Could we maybe see B6 in Brazil if this happens? NAT, FOT, REC, MAO, etc are all within range for their aircraft.

For this distance they have to offer at least "Mint"!

B6 and AD are known for exceptional product/price relationship. I don't think they would have any game winner against the competition if they go with single-aisle on this distance.

airbazar · Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 48):

Aer Lingus comes to mind, and though I can't confirm whether it's a codeshare or interline agreement, SA)">B6 also has agreements with Turkish, Lufthansa, Virgin Atlantic, British Airways, Emirates, Icelandair, and Qatar - all of whom cross the Atlantic to connect customers to points in Europe and beyond.

Nope. I did confirm before posting. From BOS SA)">B6 only puts their code on EK to DXB.
From JFK they do a little more: EK to DXB/MXP, LH to FRA, SA to JNB. That is the full extent of their code-sharing on international routes. What you're thinking about is foreign carriers putting their code on SA)">B6's domestic flights, and interline agreements.

adamh8297 · Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 52):
Nope. I did confirm before posting. From BOS SA)">B6 only puts their code on EK to DXB

Supposedly B6 and FI have signed (and got approved by US DOT) a two-way codeshare but I haven't seen it pop up yet.

N1120A · Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:47 pm

Quoting PATristar (Reply 5):
Neeleman just borned in Brazil, his parents are from USA and he lived in USA since he was 3 years old. He doen't even fluent in portuguese.

He's a Brasilian citizen and I do believe he is fluent in Portuguese, even if he has an accent.

Quoting gatibosgru (Reply 41):
Could we maybe see B6 in Brazil if this happens? NAT, FOT, REC, MAO, etc are all within range for their aircraft.

Quoting Sparrow787 (Reply 40):
This is exciting, I can imagine DN will try to sit down with Mr. Hayes (B6) and open a codeshare between all three carriers.

You do realize that there is significant bad blood between DN and B6, right?

kiwiandrew · Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:50 pm

Does Neeleman even have anything to do with B6 anymore? I thought they had parted company.... in which case what does B6 , or it's codeshare/interline agreements with EK, LH etc have to do with this thread?

Anyway, back on the actual topic.... I hope that this results in a stable, healthy TAP ....and if it ends up pulling Azul into Star I would be very happy.

N1120A · Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 55):
Does Neeleman even have anything to do with B6 anymore?

Nothing, except maybe some share holdings. He departed on very bad terms.

lesfalls · Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:01 pm

Does this mean that TP will switch from EWR to JFK for B6 connections? It would be a miracle

Viscount724 · Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 47):
1) LIS is much more than just Lisbon or Portugal. It's a hub with connections to anywhere in Europe

LIS is too far south to make a good connecting hub between North America and most of Europe. It's an excellent hub to/from South America.

[Edited 2015-06-12 13:15:25]

jetblue1965 · Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:18 pm

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 57):
Does this mean that TP will switch from EWR to JFK for B6 connections? It would be a miracle

That would mostly be a route suicide. Other than gaining B6 Mint and some random islands in the Caribbean, the connectivity would drop significantly compared to what UA can feed through EWR.

airbazar · Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 56):
Nothing, except maybe some share holdings. He departed on very bad terms.

With $25 million in his bank account. I would love me some bad terms like that LOL

Quoting N1120A (Reply 54):

You do realize that there is significant bad blood between DN and B6, right?

I'm not convinced of that. I think the media made it more than it actually was. Isn't he still the largest non-institutional share holder?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 58):
LIS is too far south to make a good connecting hub between North America and most of Europe. It's an excellent hub to/from South America.

Oh non-sense. People are flying between N.America and Europe via IST by the thousands. A 200nm detour via LIS is irrelevant. BOS-LIS-Spain/France/Italy/Greece or any Mediterranean country (all big markets from Boston and the East Coast U.S. in general), doesn't add any meaningful distance vs. other European hubs.

Viscount724 · Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 60):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 58):
LIS is too far south to make a good connecting hub between North America and most of Europe. It's an excellent hub to/from South America.

Oh non-sense. People are flying between N.America and Europe via IST by the thousands. A 200nm detour via LIS is irrelevant. BOS-LIS-Spain/France/Italy/Greece or any Mediterranean country (all big markets from Boston and the East Coast U.S. in general), doesn't add any meaningful distance vs. other European hubs.

It's 600 miles or more further to points like FRA compared to a nonstop or a connection at points like AMS/LHR. To convince anyone to fly a couple of hours longer, plus another couple of hours for a connection, requires lower fares. Lower fares combined with hundreds of miles more flying doesn't make much economic sense.

I wasn't referring to BOS but to North America in total.

[Edited 2015-06-12 14:04:34]

photolppt · Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 60):
Oh non-sense. People are flying between N.America and Europe via IST by the thousands. A 200nm detour via LIS is irrelevant. BOS-LIS-Spain/France/Italy/Greece or any Mediterranean country (all big markets from Boston and the East Coast U.S. in general), doesn't add any meaningful distance vs. other European hubs.

I agree. OPO-IST-JFK is on the rise, and it's a very new route for TK.

As an extreme example, I had some family members flying LIS-DXB-DFW, and still cheaper than LIS-MAD-DFW on IB/AA.

N1120A · Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:04 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 60):
With $25 million in his bank account.

Are you thinking of his departure from Morris Air/Southwest?

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 57):

Does this mean that TP will switch from EWR to JFK for B6 connections?

Not a chance.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 60):
I'm not convinced of that. I think the media made it more than it actually was. Isn't he still the largest non-institutional share holder?

No clue. Isn't it Soros? Anyway, I don't think the media made it more than it was. The board forced him out.

Sparrow787 · Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:11 am

Quoting gatibosgru (Reply 41):

It's a possibility, B6 loves south american and the caribbean, and a codeshare with azul would work very well I think.

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 57):

Newark has a larger Portuguese/Brazillian community, so I think it would be hard for TAP to leave EWR, plus it would be very inconvenient for those customers from newark to go over to JFK, tolls for bridges in NY recently increased.

werdywerd · Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:54 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 54):

You do realize that there is significant bad blood between DN and B6, right?

Keep in mind that Barger is now gone and the board is mostly different than the board that "fired" him. Anything is possible so many years later.

airbazar · Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:43 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 61):
It's 600 miles or more further to points like FRA compared to a nonstop or a connection at points like AMS/LHR.

Ok so those people can continue to fly those routes and paying the premium for it. Likewise, it's 600 miles or more to points like LIS and MAD via FRA and yet I guarantee you that thousands of people are choosing that route instead of the non-stop option. The biggest misconception is that people won't fly outside of the GC route. A few hundred nautical makes little to no difference. I doubt 95% of the flying public plots their route in the GC mapper to figure out the distance. Heck, a deviation of the jet stream, or the mere hint of snow fluries at LHR alone will eat all those time savings up

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 61):
I wasn't referring to BOS but to North America in total.

Ok, pick another city in N.America.
MEX-LIS-BCN = 5224nm
MEX-FRA-BCN = 5755nm

ORD-LIS-FCO = 4479
ORD-FRA-FCO = 4291

Conclusion, the further south you go in N.America and Europe the better it looks for LIS. That's not an insignificanly small market. The key to an expansion in N.America (and I use that term loosely), is to find under served city pairs where LIS is not a huge detour. Having said that I struggle to find where else besides BOS they could expand. IAD? MEX? YYZ?

flyby519 · Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 65):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 54):

You do realize that there is significant bad blood between DN and B6, right?

Keep in mind that Barger is now gone and the board is mostly different than the board that "fired" him. Anything is possible so many years later.

The chairman of the JBLU Board of Directors is also an early investor for Azul, so I'm sure he would want to see the two work together.

photolppt · Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:06 pm

Also, I keep forgetting of the excelent network TP has in Africa, so for instance a BOS-LIS-ACC would make lots of sense!

ASA · Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting photolppt (Reply 68):
Also, I keep forgetting of the excelent network TP has in Africa, so for instance a BOS-LIS-ACC would make lots of sense!

Exactly, LIS could be a great connecting point between America and Africa.

1. I have few colleagues who regularly use AMS or CDG to connect on the way to ACC

2. I ran into 2 passengers traveling BOS-DXB-JNB. Whatever small amount the BOS-Africa traffic is, LIS would be wayyy better than IST or DXB to connect.

3. BOS-Mediterranean is another area where LIS could be more attractive than MAD, IST, FCO, etc.

LJ · Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting photolppt (Reply 68):
Also, I keep forgetting of the excelent network TP has in Africa, so for instance a BOS-LIS-ACC would make lots of sense!

It depends on how you define "excellent". I count areund 12 - 14 African destinations, most of which are Cabe Verde and Morocco (6 already). But compared to the other Europeans operating in Africa, TP has not so many (especially if you consider its location).

AwysBSB · Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:56 pm

I wonder how long will it take for TP obtain some AD's E190 and ATR and for AD obtain some TP's A320.

ASA · Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:59 am

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 71):
I wonder how long will it take for TP obtain some AD's E190 and ATR and for AD obtain some TP's A320.

In the long run, all three airlines (jetBlue, Azul, TAP) will have identical fleets: E190, A320, A321, A359 ...

David Neeleman is becoming a tri-continent air(line)force

Viscount724 · Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting ASA (Reply 72):
In the long run, all three airlines (jetBlue, Azul, TAP) will have identical fleets: E190, A320, A321, A359 ...

David Neeleman is becoming a tri-continent air(line)force

He no longer has any connection to JetBlue as far as I know.

flyby519 · Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting ASA (Reply 72):

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 71):
I wonder how long will it take for TP obtain some AD's E190 and ATR and for AD obtain some TP's A320.

In the long run, all three airlines (jetBlue, Azul, TAP) will have identical fleets: E190, A320, A321, A359 ...

David Neeleman is becoming a tri-continent air(line)force

I really think this will happen and someday we'll see one airline made from these three carriers.

[Edited 2015-06-13 18:15:19]

flyby519 · Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 73):

He no longer has any connection to JetBlue as far as I know.

Right, and he isnt buying TAP either

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles...interest-in-buying-his-old-airline

werdywerd · Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:44 am

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 75):
Right, and he isnt buying TAP either http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles...interest-in-buying-his-old-airline

He was also quoted a few years ago saying he had no plans to ever bring Azul to the USA...

airbazar · Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:26 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 70):

It depends on how you define "excellent". I count areund 12 - 14 African destinations, most of which are Cabe Verde and Morocco (6 already). But compared to the other Europeans operating in Africa, TP has not so many (especially if you consider its location).

There are only 2 other European airlines with more non-stop destinations to Africa. They are AF and TK. Even SN doesn't serve that many non-stop destinations. Yes, 12-14 is not excellent but compared to the rest of EU carriers it's pretty good.
Cape Verde and Morocco aren't any less significant for TP as Nigeria and South Africa are for BA and LH, so I don't see what your point is.

Having said that I can't imagine the market between BOS and Africa to be of any relevance except Cape Verde. However if I were David Neeleman I would go right after SN's and AF's bread a butter and start covering West Africa with A320's from LIS.

[Edited 2015-06-14 08:28:40]

photolppt · Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 77):
Having said that I can't imagine the market between BOS and Africa to be of any relevance except Cape Verde.

Would other markets in the US work better? IAH, EWR, ORD come to mind... But I concour. Lot's of possibilities in W Africa other than those already served. Plus Algeria, Tunisia....

airbazar · Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting photolppt (Reply 78):
Would other markets in the US work better? IAH, EWR, ORD come to mind... But I concour. Lot's of possibilities in W Africa other than those already served. Plus Algeria, Tunisia....

TP already flies to EWR and ALG (algiers). IAH not a chance. ORD before IAD or YYZ I don't think so.
To me the 2 big misses in West Africa are Ivory Coast and Nigeria.

ASA · Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:59 pm

I see three eventual threads of this discussion:

1. TAP's new Brazil strategy:
- Obviously, Azul will be a part of this strategy.
- Also, a new hub in the Northeast of Brazil?
- More flights in the offing (is there a limit?)?
- At least to VCP and CNF to feed Azul flights?

2. TAP's new North America strategy:
- Which are the new destinations that could see the colorful TAP planes?
- Right now, only EWR and MIA are served. Will there be a reorientation of flights in accordance with the recent *A membership? IAD, ORD, etc?
- Or, is a B6 oriented strategy more likely ... such as, shift from EWR to JFK, MIA to FLL ... and maybe BOS, MCO, etc?

3. Is any jetBlue-Azul strategy expected as part of this whole tri-continent group emerging?
- Does that help TAP in any way? How about joint maintenance, fleet sharing, etc?
- Or is it just us A-nutters gone wild?

C010T3 · Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:17 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 80):
- Also, a new hub in the Northeast of Brazil?

The whole of raison d'être of LIS as hub for Brazil is not having to use any other hub. LATAM wants to build a hub in the Northeast in order to bypass LIS and MAD. If own the carrier at LIS, there is no reason to bypass it, since it is superior to the any hub in Northeastern Brazil.

TheCommodore · Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:50 pm

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 18):
Good to read some positive news about TP for a change. I really hope they can improve as an airline.

It sure is.

I have travelled twice on this airline in 18 months, and both timers were disastrous with flights cancelled for no apparent reason...

Anyway. I hope they can turn it around.

LJ · Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:02 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 77):
Cape Verde and Morocco aren't any less significant for TP as Nigeria and South Africa are for BA and LH, so I don't see what your point is.

The point is that coverage of "Africa" is not "excellent" if the majority of your destinations is concentrated in two countries.In the end Africa is more than Morocco and Cabe Verde. If you look on the map there is a very big black hole in TAp's African route network.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 77):
However if I were David Neeleman I would go right after SN's and AF's bread a butter and start covering West Africa with A320's from LIS.

I doubt he'll do that. IB is doing this right now and I don't think TAP should copy IB's strategy. Moreover, Africa is not an easy market where some dergree of local O&D is needed (which, except for the destinations already served, isn't there).

airbazar · Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 80):
1. TAP's new Brazil strategy:
- Obviously, Azul will be a part of this strategy.
- Also, a new hub in the Northeast of Brazil?
- At least to VCP and CNF to feed Azul flights?

Azul will def. be part of the strategy. They already code share.
No need for a hub in the Northeast.
TP already flies to both VCP and CNF

Quoting ASA (Reply 80):
3. Is any jetBlue-Azul strategy expected as part of this whole tri-continent group emerging?

TP has been code sharing with Azul for almost a year so yes there. As for B6, not sure.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 81):

The whole of raison d'être of LIS as hub for Brazil is not having to use any other hub.

Their bread and butter is to serve secondary cities in Brazil with cities in Europe with only 1 stop via LIS. A hub in the Northeast goes against that. I know it's not fair to call a city of a million plus a "secondary" city but you know what I mean.

Quoting LJ (Reply 83):
The point is that coverage of "Africa" is not "excellent" if the majority of your destinations is concentrated in two countries

Coverage of Africa is not excellent if only 10 countries are served, period

But compared with the rest of the Euro carries it's pretty much on par. So they serve 4 cities in Cape Verde. LH serves 3 in Nigeria.
No European carrier has excellent coverage of Africa other than AF and TK. They all more or less focus on niche markets. TP serves 10 countries, BA serves 10 countries, LH serves 11, KL serves 8, SN serves 16 albeit some as tags or triangle routes.

gatibosgru · Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:36 pm

I really like the current TAP livery, hope if anything Azul just improves on it.

superjeff · Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:29 pm

TAP and Azul, yes. But Neeleman is not associated with JetBlue anymore. Could be an interesting new "alliance," though, and probably still has a lot of friends there

werdywerd · Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:43 pm

FYI David Neeleman was spotted today flying through JFK T5.... Hmmmmm LOL

Kidding, he was probably just flying somewhere for personal reasons. Pretty sure he is on the JFK-SLC flight on B6 right now.

ASA · Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:49 pm

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 87):
Kidding, he was probably just flying somewhere for personal reasons. Pretty sure he is on the JFK-SLC flight on B6 right now.

Haha right. He was 'just' flying on B6 ... neither thinking nor reminiscing about it even!

airbazar · Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:54 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 73):
He no longer has any connection to JetBlue as far as I know.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 86):
But Neeleman is not associated with JetBlue anymore.

Other than being the largest individual share holder in B6 and the fact that B6's Chaiman Joel Peterson is an investor in Azul, no I guess he has no connection to B6

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