AF185
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JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:25 am

A bit over-dramatic don't you think?


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...apan-airlines-for-safety-violation

Quote:
A Japan Airlines Co. pilot who brought a stewardess into the cockpit while his partner was on a bathroom break, then took a picture with her on his smartphone, was suspended for violating flight regulations.
The pilot, 47, seated the 28-year-old attendant in the co-pilot’s chair and snapped a selfie after the plane had climbed to 10,000 feet. The incident took place June 7 on a flight from northern Japan to Osaka, the airline said in an e-mailed statement.
Cockpit safety has been closely scrutinized after the co-pilot of a Germanwings flight locked the captain out of the cockpit when he went to the bathroom, then deliberately crashed the flight into a mountainside on March 24, killing all 150 people on board. Since then, a number of airlines have insisted that there be two officials in the cockpit at all times.
Japan Airlines said it suspended the pilot immediately for violating regulations that require pilots to remain vigilant.
 
MD88Captain
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:07 am

No. Not dramatic; absolutely appropriate.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:28 pm

In this day and age you are quite simply not allowed to do anything out of the bog standard ordinary task at hand. Anything extra is frowned upon especially in this world of social media and climate of over-reaction by everyone to everything. Unfortunately this is the world we live in and he should have known better to do it in the air as the only pilot at the controls.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:24 pm

Well, at least there were two people in the cockpit.   
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Mir
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:41 pm

Having the FA in the flight deck with the other pilot away is fine (in fact, that's what they should do). Taking the picture is fine. Having the FA sitting in a pilot seat, however, is not fine. I don't know whether I'd suspend them for it, though.

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Aesma
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:17 pm

The article makes it sound like he summoned the F/A in the cockpit to do something inappropriate, then mentions Germanwings. In all likelihood she had to be there because of Germanwings. As for being in the seat, couldn't it be policy too ? After all standing near the door is not the best place to stop the pilot from doing something (or to help in case help is needed).
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Mir
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
As for being in the seat, couldn't it be policy too ? After all standing near the door is not the best place to stop the pilot from doing something (or to help in case help is needed).

They don't have to stand near the door, they could sit in the jumpseat. They'll still have plenty of opportunity to intervene if necessary (though it's doubtful that it would be much use if the pilot were really committed to do something).

-Mir
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thepinkmachine
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:51 pm

Seriously... What exactly is wrong with letting an F/A sit on a vacant pilot seat, if they are not interfering with the controls? This world is going mad...
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Mir
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting thepinkmachine (Reply 7):
What exactly is wrong with letting an F/A sit on a vacant pilot seat, if they are not interfering with the controls?

They might inadvertently interfere with the controls, that's the thing. But, more importantly, since their primary job is to make sure that the other pilot can get back into the cockpit, it makes sense to have them close to the door. And the jumpseat fits that description a lot better than a pilot seat.

-Mir
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pasu129
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:58 pm

I thought it was the right practice to have FA be in cockpit if one of the two pilots are on bathroom break?

I always see this happening while on the TransCon flight, one of the FAs will be in cockpit with the other pilot, while one would go to bathroom. And the front galley section would be blocked off either by built-in gate or with a galley cart.
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American 767
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:04 pm

Unless I misunderstood something...this question comes to my mind:

How can the copilot be on a bathroom break while the airplane is still climbing towards its cruise altitude? It's obvious that the plane was not going to cruise at 10000ft for the entire duration of the flight. The regulations are such that, and even before the Germanwings crash, two pilots have to be in the cockpit during take off, climb, approach and landing. Only while on autopilot at cruise altitude, either pilot (of course not both at the same time) can take a bathroom break. And of course now after the Germanwings crash, while in cruise flight, when only one pilot is in the cockpit while the other went to the bathroom, a F/A goes into the cockpit until the other pilot comes back.

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spacecadet
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:23 pm

It's Japan. You follow the rules. That's it. It's a very strict country, in all aspects.
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NYPECO
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:35 pm

Not over-dramatic at all. The captain was the only one flying the plane, and they hadn't reached cruise altitude yet. He should have been paying attention to flying.
 
bmibaby737
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Having the FA sitting in a pilot seat, however, is not fine.

That's utterly ridiculous

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
They might inadvertently interfere with the controls

They're not children!
 
Gasman
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
(though it's doubtful that it would be much use if the pilot were really committed to do something).

They could at least open the door.

Why not just make the pilots' seats lavatories? Problem solved.
 
cedarjet
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:10 pm

I think it's an overreaction and btw a high altitude segment of the climb eg through the FL200s is not different to the cruise (as an aside Concorde would sit in a gradual climb throughout the "cruise"). If you're busting for a piss you can go any time you like above level 100.

Hope the union have this guy's back and it blows over with a warning.
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747megatop
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:59 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Taking the picture is fine.

Well, that is debatable. What do the rules say? If a driver on land can be ticketed for a simple act like talking on a cell phone without a hands free headset just because the rules forbid it; why should a pilot be treated differently? After all he is up there in the air responsible for the lives of 10s (or 100s) of people AND not there for taking selfies of himself.
 
ozark1
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:05 pm

Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 13):
Quoting Mir (Reply 4):Having the FA sitting in a pilot seat, however, is not fine.
That's utterly ridiculous

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):They might inadvertently interfere with the controls
They're not children!

How in the world do you think it is fine to have a flight attendant slide into a cockpit seat? I am one and would find that a tad uncomfortable, sliding in amongst the controls. The two people in the cockpit policy is one that should be adhered to professionally. 9/11 caused it and it is a serious business. He had no right having her slide into the other seat. On the ground yes, in the air, absolutely not.
 
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pvjin
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:17 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 16):
Well, that is debatable. What do the rules say? If a driver on land can be ticketed for a simple act like talking on a cell phone without a hands free headset just because the rules forbid it; why should a pilot be treated differently? After all he is up there in the air responsible for the lives of 10s (or 100s) of people AND not there for taking selfies of himself.

Because modern airliners have autopilot, cars don't.
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eal
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 11):
It's Japan. You follow the rules. That's it. It's a very strict country, in all aspects.

Probably could've happened in any country, didn't a US FA get in big trouble for just taking pictures in the engine?
 
747megatop
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:30 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 18):
Because modern airliners have autopilot

..which have to be monitored along with the instruments & everything else with the pilots ready to intervene. If the pilot wants to take selfies to please the flight attendant then he can sit in the passenger cabin when not on duty and take as many selfies as he wants  .
 
747megatop
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:33 pm

Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 13):
They're not children!

They're not pilots either!! Speaking of children, remember the Aeroflot crash over Siberia? The autopilot was in fact tripped inadvertently.
 
32andBelow
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 20):
.which have to be monitored along with the instruments & everything else with the pilots ready to intervene. If the pilot wants to take selfies to please the flight attendant then he can sit in the passenger cabin when not on duty and take as many selfies as he wants  .

If you think they are actively staring at all this stuff all flight, I have some bad news for you...
 
747megatop
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:02 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 22):
If you think they are actively staring at all this stuff all flight, I have some bad news for you...

You don't have to give me any bad news. The simple points being
1) What are the rules in Japan?
2) The pilots job is not to goof off in the cockpit. Taking selfies or doing whatever personal stuff in the cockpit doesn't fit the job description.

And by monitoring i literally didn't mean is staring at the instruments without batting an eyelid at every second. As others have pointed out...the FA had no business being in the vacant pilot's seat. Combined with that we have a pilot taking a selfie and we don't know what else was going on...doesn't sound like a professional environment to me.
 
flight152
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:17 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 23):
...the FA had no business being in the vacant pilot's seat.

Uh, this is industry practice in the US. The flight attendant almost always sits in the vacant pilot seat in these situations. But please, lets have some more members chime in that aren't in the industry with zero knowledge on the matter.
 
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:47 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Having the FA in the flight deck with the other pilot away is fine (in fact, that's what they should do). Taking the picture is fine. Having the FA sitting in a pilot seat, however, is not fine. I don't know whether I'd suspend them for it, though.

Plenty of airlines have procedures which state that the FA sits in the vacant pilot's seat if a pilot has left the flightdeck.
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AirPacific747
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:51 am

Of course she can't sit in a pilot seat while the plane is in the air. It's common practice in most airlines and certainly also the airline I work for. As others have said, she could inadvertently manipulate the control column.
 
N766UA
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:57 am

Quoting flight152 (Reply 24):

Thanks for saying that. It's always amusing watching people argue this stuff when they have no idea what SOP actually is.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:56 am

Quoting flight152 (Reply 24):
Uh, this is industry practice in the US.

Well, it isn't standard practice in Europe to the best of my knowledge and personal experience.
 
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longhauler
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:13 am

Where I fly, having a F/A in the cockpit during bathroom breaks is a new thing and a direct knee-jerk (and no safer) reaction to the Germanwings accident. In the initial memos and in the final directive, it was stated very clearly that the F/A will not at any time sit in the vacant pilot seat ... ever.

These are our rules, and they must be followed. So ... what are the rules in Japan? If they are the same, then no, this is not an overreaction. And it doesn't matter whether anyone agrees with them, the rules must be followed until they are changed.
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F9Animal
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:47 am

Honestly, I can't have any personal electronic devices when I operate a train. I have no issue with that policy, as safety is number one. I am sure many airlines have strict policies about cell phones and personal electronic devices in the cockpit. Shouldn't he be scanning for traffic, or doing his job?
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DocLightning
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:08 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 29):

Where I fly, having a F/A in the cockpit during bathroom breaks is a new thing and a direct knee-jerk (and no safer) reaction to the Germanwings accident.

How can you say that when an F/A in the cockpit aboard Germanwings could have changed everything?
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Braniff747SP
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:12 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 30):
Honestly, I can't have any personal electronic devices when I operate a train.

Railroad operations are very different (unless you've got ATO, and even then).

Taking a picture per se isn't really a problem -- doing that, however, without the other pilot in the cockpit (and with an unqualified person sitting in the seat) probably wasn't a very bright move on his part.

I very much doubt that the integral safety of the flight was in danger, though.
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Whiteguy
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:23 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 29):
Where I fly, having a F/A in the cockpit during bathroom breaks is a new thing and a direct knee-jerk (and no safer) reaction to the Germanwings accident. In the initial memos and in the final directive, it was stated very clearly that the F/A will not at any time sit in the vacant pilot seat ... ever.

These are our rules, and they must be followed. So ... what are the rules in Japan? If they are the same, then no, this is not an overreaction. And it doesn't matter whether anyone agrees with them, the rules must be followed until they are changed.

We have the exact same policy, an FA is NOT to sit in either pilot seat!!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):

How can you say that when an F/A in the cockpit aboard Germanwings could have changed everything?

If someone is committed to doing what he did, an FA in the cockpit isn't going to make a difference!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 33):
If someone is committed to doing what he did, an FA in the cockpit isn't going to make a difference!

He can do what he's doing or he can wrestle with her. He might overpower her, but not before she can open the door. She can stall things long enough for someone, even a passenger, to come to her aid.
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LAX772LR
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:10 am

It is what it is... though surprised that this made international news.

I mean, there's been worse. Wasn't there a BA (or was it Virgin?) guy who was suspended after not only taking cockpit selfies with his wanger out, but then posting them (with his face) online?

I'm sure I remembers something like that.
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Mir
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:17 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 16):
Well, that is debatable. What do the rules say? If a driver on land can be ticketed for a simple act like talking on a cell phone without a hands free headset just because the rules forbid it; why should a pilot be treated differently?

An airplane is not a car, and they are not operated in the same way. Not even remotely close.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 20):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 18):
Because modern airliners have autopilot

..which have to be monitored along with the instruments & everything else with the pilots ready to intervene.

Doing that for an extended period of time is bad for performance. Distractions are a good thing in this case, if done responsibly - I don't advocate diverting attention from what's going on for anything more than several seconds, but you easily snap a photo or two in less time than that.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 25):
Plenty of airlines have procedures which state that the FA sits in the vacant pilot's seat if a pilot has left the flightdeck.

Unless there's no other seat available (such as on an RJ), that doesn't seem like a particularly good practice to me, but if some airlines have that policy then that's their policy. As has been mentioned, it's not a universal policy.

-Mir
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777Jet
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:19 am

Quoting NYPECO (Reply 12):
He should have been paying attention to flying.

And on that topic and the entire 'Sterile Cockpit' concept, we seem to get a lot of in-flight at low altitude cockpit pics, especially during final approach, uploaded on the net - especially to this site  
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airproxx
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:03 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):

The article makes it sound like he summoned the F/A in the cockpit to do something inappropriate, then mentions Germanwings. In all likelihood she had to be there because of Germanwings. As for being in the seat, couldn't it be policy too ? After all standing near the door is not the best place to stop the pilot from doing something (or to help in case help is needed).

The aim of a 2nd occupant, if it has to be a FA, in the flight deck has never been to prevent the remaining pilot in command to "do something", but to open the door for a 2nd pilot who takes over the situation....
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CX Flyboy
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:36 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 29):
These are our rules, and they must be followed. So ... what are the rules in Japan? If they are the same, then no, this is not an overreaction. And it doesn't matter whether anyone agrees with them, the rules must be followed until they are changed.

We do not have this policy although straight after 9-11 (When the strengthened cockpit door was introduced) we have been having a F/A sit in the cockpit when the other pilot is out for a comfort break although the F/A does not normally sit in a control seat sometimes they do just decide to sit there and I have no issue with it. The seat is fully back anyway so they can't even really reach the controls.
I have no idea what the rule is in Japan though.
 
airproxx
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:47 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 39):
We do not have this policy although straight after 9-11 (When the strengthened cockpit door was introduced) we have been having a F/A sit in the cockpit when the other pilot is out for a comfort break although the F/A does not normally sit in a control seat sometimes they do just decide to sit there and I have no issue with it. The seat is fully back anyway so they can't even really reach the controls.

Same for us in France. I don't really see the issue in having a FA seating in the remaining pilot seat, despite all the stories we've heard about incident/accidents that have happened in such a configuration. And by the way, all this set up issued by authorities after Germanwings is quiet ridiculous to me. In all commercial aviation history, we've seen something like 7 or 8 crashes made consciously by pilots who wanted to commit suicide, and from this 7 or 8 occurences, 6 have happened with both pilots in controls. So despite reassuring the masses for aviation safety matters, the second occupant in cockpit coming while one pilot takes a physiological break is quiet irrelevant to me...
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longhauler
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):

How can you say that when an F/A in the cockpit aboard Germanwings could have changed everything?

Thread drift here, but I am going to risk it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
He can do what he's doing or he can wrestle with her. He might overpower her, but not before she can open the door. She can stall things long enough for someone, even a passenger, to come to her aid.

The pilot doesn't have to do anything, he just has to dial in 100 in the FCU, set 4000 fpm down, and wait. Still while calmly talking with the F/A, and not wrestling her. Unless she's rated on the aircrafr type, she likely doesn't know what he the pilot is doing.

But, how does the pilot deal with the issue of the other guy on the other side of the door, clearly not being let in?

How about after he leaves, the pilot flying turning to the F/A and saying, "I think we have a problem with X, and we have to lock him out of the cockpit". Now she has to decide who is sane and who is not. Open the door and let the threat in, or leave the door locked with the possible threat inside ....

Go with the odds, there have been 6 pilot suicides in the last 50 years with a pilot alone in the cockpit. There have been over a 200 incidents in the last 20 years alone where one pilot had to be locked out for safety!
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747megatop
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
An airplane is not a car, and they are not operated in the same way. Not even remotely close.

I am aware of that. My point of bringing that up is when the rules seem to be tougher for car drivers, why can't pilots be held up to higher standards? I myself have flown a plane albeit a small one as a trainee so i am definitely aware a car and a plane are not even remotely close. Again, goes back to the point of what are the rules in Japan?
 
mandala499
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:40 am

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 25):
Plenty of airlines have procedures which state that the FA sits in the vacant pilot's seat if a pilot has left the flightdeck.

Provided the seat is moved fully aft (and outwards on some aircraft). Having them sit with the seat forward, no no.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
Go with the odds, there have been 6 pilot suicides in the last 50 years with a pilot alone in the cockpit. There have been over a 200 incidents in the last 20 years alone where one pilot had to be locked out for safety!

Now that's not something the public wants to hear... they want to hear about the 6 over the last 50 years...  
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b747400erf
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:32 am

A suicidal pilot is most likely not going to try and overpower another person in the cockpit, even if it is an FA not a trained pilot. The reason they chose to lock the other person out is specifically because they did not want any hand to hand conflict.
 
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longhauler
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 43):
Now that's not something the public wants to hear

Yes, to me it's like "security theatre" presently being performed at airports, not changing safely levels with their existence.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 43):
they want to hear about the 6 over the last 50 years

Yes, but the present SOPs having an F/A in the flight deck is ignoring the more common threat, chasing after another far far lesser threat. And ... was only reacting to the hysteria and horror of the Germanwings crash.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 44):
A suicidal pilot is most likely not going to try and overpower another person in the cockpit, even if it is an FA not a trained pilot. The reason they chose to lock the other person out is specifically because they did not want any hand to hand conflict.

There have been so few pilot suicides, it's hard to note a trend to see what is more likely. As noted, some of the suicides occurred with other pilots on the flight deck.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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ordell
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RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:37 pm

Well color me shocked that Yahoo and Bloomberg used "stewardess" in the headline. With all the hyper-militant feminism on a rampage these days, I'm amazed that got through editing.
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:51 am

I see a lot of you pilots taking selfies or photos! lol
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art
Posts: 2951
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: JAL Pilot Suspended Over Cockpit Selfie

Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:02 am

Quoting thepinkmachine (Reply 7):
Seriously... What exactly is wrong with letting an F/A sit on a vacant pilot seat, if they are not interfering with the controls? This world is going mad...

The world has been mad for quite a long time. Political correctness, heath & safety etc

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