efcar98
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:55 am

Anyone know the reason for United 925 diverting on 6/13

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL925
 
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compensateme
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:04 am

UA958 diverted ORD-LHR into Goose Bay last night due to maintenance; passengers slept overnight at an army base. This flight must be dropping off/picking up crew. Passengers from UA958 are headed to EWR.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-crew-spend-night-comfy-hotel.html

[Edited 2015-06-13 18:07:49]
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Nouflyer
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:25 am

Yep - leaving the passengers to freeze in a barracks in Goose Bay with no food from midday to 7 pm is making waves in England!
 
B737900ER
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 2):

Guess they should have crashed into the ocean. Fairly certain they would have been colder and gone longer then eight hours with out food.

Really what do you expect in these situations? There is no magic wand that makes hotels and restaurants appear for unusual things like this that happen.
 
iahcsr
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:13 pm

His does raise several questions: was there enough hotel space available for this number people? Was there one (or two) individuals on site to coordinate all the logistics or was it all by phone to whomever could be found for this and that? It's clear UA failed to establish proper means of communication with the passengers and UA's social media personnel were Clueless on how to properly deal with the situation. It would be interesting to see how AA or DL would do (better surly) in such an event.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
N1120A
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:46 pm

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 3):
Guess they should have crashed into the ocean. Fairly certain they would have been colder and gone longer then eight hours with out food.

Oh, that's just ridiculous. They clearly mistreated the people on the ground.

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 3):
Really what do you expect in these situations? There is no magic wand that makes hotels and restaurants appear for unusual things like this that happen.

You do realize they found accommodation for the crew, right? They should have found decent accommodation for the passengers as well.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
richierich
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:24 pm

I've been to Goose Bay, there really is not much there! There may be a small hotel or two but I really don't think there are any major hotel chains. So yes, there is a hotel problem in that the demand is not there, albeit for a few diversions a year.

With that said, UA has really stepped in it now. Mainstream USA media, which loves nothing more than airline bashing, is all over this, comparing the military baracks to a prison cell and showing people walking down muddy roads with their luggage. It's terrible PR. I'm surprised it took united so long to send a rescue plane - and that they are taking them to EWR (arguably worse than YYR) instead of flying on to LHR...anybody know why that is the case?

On a side note, does anybody know if YYR received diversions on 9/11? Seems like it might have...what did they do for accommodations back then?
None shall pass!!!!
 
Carfield
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:05 pm

One of the passengers responded to Travis' blog post...

Please read the comments towards the end of the blog.
Top
 
Carfield
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:11 pm

Sorry for the wrong post.

I tried to post the link but for some reasons, they don't come out.
I try to edit the post but my computer refuses to let me do so.

Just try to google "One Mile at a Time" website by Lucky and there was a link to guest post regarding this diversion.
The post is titled "United Strands Hundreds In Remote Goose Bay Canada For 20 Hours"

The passenger was called Jay and you can find his first hand report on the comment section.

Sorry again,
Carfield
 
windy95
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 2):
Yep - leaving the passengers to freeze in a barracks in Goose Bay with no food from midday to 7 pm is making waves in England

Please tell me what was available and what they should of done.

Quoting iahcsr (Reply 4):
His does raise several questions: was there enough hotel space available for this number people?

Do you have the internet? check Orbitz or Tripadvisor and find out

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Oh, that's just ridiculous. They clearly mistreated the people on the ground.

Mistreated? How?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
They should have found decent accommodation for the passengers as well.

Once again can you find decent accomadations for several hundred people in Goose bay?

Quoting richierich (Reply 6):
I've been to Goose Bay, there really is not much there! There may be a small hotel or two but I really don't think there are any major hotel chains

Correct there is not much there.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 8):
The post is titled "United Strands Hundreds In Remote Goose Bay Canada For 20 Hours"

Exactly how did they strand them?

And do any of you know why it diverted into Goose Bay?

[Edited 2015-06-14 10:34:40]
 
cle757
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:49 pm

Jeff Smisek is the captain of this sinking ship!..Sorry but more and more UA employees just don't care anymore!
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
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GreenArc
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:11 pm

This is merely prelude to a total summer meltdown. United is arguably in the worst shape since the merger: Persistent IT issues. Staffing issues. No parts. No mechanics. Adversarial management/employee relations. Resources stretched to the breaking point. Everything outsourced to the lowest bidder.

There is something systemically wrong at UA and it starts at the top.

Record profits and a sadly neglected operation.

Oh yeah, the ME3 is the real problem. What a laugh!
 
Transpac787
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 3):
Really what do you expect in these situations? There is no magic wand that makes hotels and restaurants appear for unusual things like this that happen.

Replacement flights. They need only look toward DL for guidance on how to do this, apparently.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 9):
Exactly how did they strand them?

How about the time a DL 747-400 operating HNL-KIX had to do a forced landing on Midway Atoll in the middle of the Pacific Ocean?? DL had a replacement 744 there, to continue the flight, within.... maybe 12 hours?? This is several years ago, but it was impressive how quickly DL had those people moving again, to their destination.

Not only did UA fail to launch a replacement flight, they took the passengers to EWR; an airport none of them were destined for.
 
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flylku
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 2):
Yep - leaving the passengers to freeze in a barracks in Goose Bay with no food from midday to 7 pm is making waves in England!
Quoting B737900ER (Reply 3):
Guess they should have crashed into the ocean. Fairly certain they would have been colder and gone longer then eight hours with out food.

My thoughts exactly.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Oh, that's just ridiculous. They clearly mistreated the people on the ground.

Really? Were you there? I'll give the crew who were there the benefit of the doubt. And, given that they are working throughout the entire ordeal, they should have what limited accommodations are available.

As for any blog posts that are out there ... we can always find a complainer in any group.
...are we there yet?
 
iahcsr
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:26 pm

The aircraft is N663UA ..... '93 763..
Still at YYR per FlightAware
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
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compensateme
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting flylku (Reply 13):
Really? Were you there? I'll give the crew who were there the benefit of the doubt. And, given that they are working throughout the entire ordeal, they should have what limited accommodations are available.

As for any blog posts that are out there ... we can always find a complainer in any group.

Try actually reading the blog post Carfield suggested earlier.

UA should've handled the situation much better than it did.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
maxamuus
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:58 pm

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
Replacement flights. They need only look toward DL for guidance on how to do this, apparently.

DL has some vodo magic where they can pull a Ritz Carlton out the arse end of the plane?
 
Transpac787
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 16):
DL has some vodo magic where they can pull a Ritz Carlton out the arse end of the plane?

They didn't need to, as they had a replacement plane there to resume the flight as soon as they could.

You'd know this, if you bothered to read my post in its entirety.  
 
maxamuus
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United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 17):
They didn't need to, as they had a replacement plane there to resume the flight as soon as they could.

You'd know this, if you bothered to read my post in its entirety.  

Like when they dumped a 747 load of people on Midway Atoll? Dear GOD! Those passengers were left to wander the beach like the Tv show Lost.

At least UA put their passengers up with a roof over their head.

My point was spare us all "Delta would have done better" BS. At times it is better landing where it is safe and not in the drink. Leave all the sensationalism to the press.



[Edited 2015-06-14 15:08:24]
 
windy95
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
Replacement flights. They need only look toward DL for guidance on how to do this, apparently.

They did get a replacement flight. You think that all the Airlines have widebodies sitting around all the time?

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
Not only did UA fail to launch a replacement flight

Yes it did. Depending on where that flight came from it could of been a 4 to 8 hour flight to get it to Goose Bay after a suitable replacement and crew was found.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
they took the passengers to EWR; an airport none of them were destined for.

And then on th LHR their destination along with a refund of their fare.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
How about the time a DL 747-400 operating HNL-KIX had to do a forced landing on Midway Atoll in the middle of the Pacific Ocean?? DL had a replacement 744 there, to continue the flight, within.... maybe 12 hours??

Like maybe 12??? hours. So this was 20 hours and it just depends on where the spare aircraft is at even if your 12????hours is true.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 18):
At least UA put their passengers up with a roof over their head.

There are no large modern hotels in Goose Bay as well. If the crew had kept them on the planeor inthe terminal they would still be whining.

Quoting compensateme (Reply 15):
Try actually reading the blog post Carfield suggested earlier.

UA should've handled the situation much better than it did

I did and once again please give the details on how you would of handled it. Pulled a widebody out of thin air and perhaps conjured of a Residence INN for all all of them? it was an emergency landing in a remote area. They should be thankful they made it to their destination in one piece.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 3):
Guess they should have crashed into the ocean. Fairly certain they would have been colder and gone longer then eight hours with out food.

Really what do you expect in these situations? There is no magic wand that makes hotels and restaurants appear for unusual things like this that happen.


They have been refunded their London tickets, and have been compensated above that. Guess the passengers in this entitled world society, believe they should have beeen compensated to make them multi-millionaires. Maybe then they wouldn't complain as much.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 9):
Do you have the internet? check Orbitz or Tripadvisor and find out




Hotels

Hotel North one shows 54 rooms.


http://www.royalinnandsuites.ca/index2.html

"We offer 37 comfortable and spacious rooms and suites "

Bet all those places had zero occupancy too.  
And who gets the rooms ? Maybe should let the folks fight over that. Would warm them up in those freezing temperatures that was complained about.

Happy Valley Goose Bay looks pretty small and remote. A place I'd like to visit.

http://www.google.com/maps/@?hl=en

Quoting flylku (Reply 13):
As for any blog posts that are out there ... we can always find a complainer in any group.

Seems the locals are fighting back against the passengers.

"Some questioned why the flight crew was given accommodations at a local hotel, when passengers had to spend the night at a military base.
Meanwhile, some locals hit back on social media, alleging Happy Valley-Goose Bay had been misrepresented.
One United Airlines passenger tweeted a photo of houses that were buried in snow, while another commented on the freezing temperatures"

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 16):
DL has some vodo magic where they can pull a Ritz Carlton out the arse end of the plane?

In today's impatient world, there is no patience.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 18):
My point was spare us all "Delta would have done better" BS. At times it is better landing where it is safe and not in the drink. Leave all the sensationalism to the press.

  

It is called Irregular Ops, it takes time to get things moving.
You are here.
 
Transpac787
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 18):
Like when they dumped a 747 load of people on Midway Atoll? Dear GOD! Those passengers were left to wander the beach like the Tv show Lost.

I'm not even sure what you mean by this near totally nonsensical post.  

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 18):
At least UA put their passengers up with a roof over their head.

As opposed to the alternative of.... doing nothing at all??

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 18):
At times it is better landing where it is safe and not in the drink.

No one is questioning nor challenging the decision to divert.

What is questionable is how UA handled the recovery of it.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 19):
They should be thankful they made it to their destination in one piece.

     

That's a new one. "At least you're not dead" has not, to my knowledge, ever been used in airline service recovery.  

Hardly something you should hang your hat on.
 
Viscount724
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:54 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 6):
On a side note, does anybody know if YYR received diversions on 9/11? Seems like it might have...what did they do for accommodations back then?

Yes YVR had 34 9/11 diversions, mostly widebodies. Of the 17 Canadian airports that handled 9/11 diversions, only YHZ (47) and YQX (38) had more flights than YVR.

Related YVR news video on the 10th anniversary.
http://www.cbc.ca/player/Embedded-On.../Security-911/Video/ID/2123934987/
 
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CALTECH
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 21):
That's a new one. "At least you're not dead" has not, to my knowledge, ever been used in airline service recovery.

Hardly something you should hang your hat on.

With the thousands of people who have perished in aircraft accidents, hardly something to put laughing Smilies about.
You are here.
 
Transpac787
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 23):

With the thousands of people who have perished in aircraft accidents, hardly something to put laughing Smilies about.

And yet, airlines still don't agree with your marketing strategy.

"We apologize for the delay, but at least you're not dead"

As that has yet to be used, by any carrier, as an official service recovery method.
 
Viscount724
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:08 am

The passengers should booked to leave Saturday instead of Friday. Saturday's UA958 arrived LHR 24 minutes early.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:21 am

This is something that happens occasionally and is pretty much unavoidable, so in that respect there are those who will be blowing this out of proportion. Especially with the conditions and accommodations, not a whole lot you can do.

On the other, it does seem a bit poor of a response time from UA. EWR is 2 hours away. IAD is 2. ORD is 3. Even a 739 could probably bring them all back to civilization. So not particularly impressive IRROPS options at the hubs, evidently.

Nothing to be outraged by but not a laudable response either.

[Edited 2015-06-14 18:26:39]
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
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CALTECH
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:24 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 24):
And yet, airlines still don't agree with your marketing strategy.

Not by any means any marketing strategy of mine. Those Smilies though, do point to a insensitive thought process.
You are here.
 
UA1K3MM
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:24 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):

Sorry, but the Canadian airport in question is YYR not YVR. There were 7 flights diverted to YYR on 9/11

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellow_Ribbon

  

[Edited 2015-06-14 18:27:09]
 
Viscount724
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting UA1K3MM (Reply 28):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):


Sorry, but the Canadian airport in question is YYR not YVR. There were 7 flights diverted to YYR on 9/11

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellow_Ribbon

Thanks. My eyes aren't sharp enough. It looked like YVR but I now see the question was on YYR.
 
ltbewr
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:24 am

The priority of the pilots and UA is to operate their aircraft at top safety standards. Apparently there was a serious enough problem that required a return to the nearest airport that could handle this size aircraft, the 'comfort' of the passengers once on the ground is secondary. Airlines today do not have the 'spare' aircraft or immediately available flight staff for a variety of what ifs like here, especially as this was a long-haul flight. That they were brought to EWR likely made sense as UA would have the most number of seats available for these pax. Could the pax been accommodated better, perhaps, but the 'military barracks' were the least bad option, I suspect the airport there is tiny and unable to handle 200 + pax with sleeping and feeding accomidations.

Sadly too is that with high speed internet, social media, sensational news media, terrible attitudes by the public as to airlines today, expecting everything to be either perfect or fixed in minutes as well as some who just have thin skins, it is no wonder the situation of this diversion got so much attention
 
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DFWflightpath
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:51 am

I'm curious, if the airline doesn't have an aircraft on hand for a situation like this, could or would they charter a flight with another airline?
 
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compensateme
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:08 am

Geeze, let's get past the fanboyism:

- It took over 20 hours to get a replacement aircraft into Goose Bay, and then passengers were flown to Newark first (and were required to have all their baggage re-screened/etc.).

- Passengers and their families were clearly using whatever resources they could (e.g. Twitter) to get information from UA, but were unsuccessful.

- In order to accommodate this flight into slot-restricted LHR, UA ended up cancelling the evening EWR-LHR flight, inconveniencing even more passengers - and by several accounts, for whatever reason, too many of these passengers were auto booked onto the stranded flight, causing even more headache.

Let's get past the 'but UA got the passengers to London safely' narrative -- UA should've had a replacement aircraft into Goose Bay much, much sooner -> at the very least, based on the load, a 757/739 could've picked up all passengers & crew and flown them to ORD, IAD, EWR, etc. where they would've been much more comfortable. Additionally, UA should've communicated more effectively about the situation.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting compensateme (Reply 32):
Additionally, UA should've communicated more effectively about the situation.

Probably, but via who? UA doesn't operate to Goose Bay, they have no direct representatives on the ground there.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:20 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 19):
I did and once again please give the details on how you would of handled it. Pulled a widebody out of thin air and perhaps conjured of a Residence INN for all all of them? it was an emergency landing in a remote area. They should be thankful they made it to their destination in one piece.

That is our line of work, get one there safely.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
Airlines today do not have the 'spare' aircraft or immediately available flight staff for a variety of what ifs like here, especially as this was a long-haul flight. That they were brought to EWR likely made sense as UA would have the most number of seats available for these pax. Could the pax been accommodated better, perhaps, but the 'military barracks' were the least bad option, I suspect the airport there is tiny and unable to handle 200 + pax with sleeping and feeding accomidations.

Sadly too is that with high speed internet, social media, sensational news media, terrible attitudes by the public as to airlines today, expecting everything to be either perfect or fixed in minutes as well as some who just have thin skins, it is no wonder the situation of this diversion got so much attention

   Sadly, that is the case nowadays. No patience and many folks believe they are royalty on lowest fare tickets.

Quoting DFWflightpath (Reply 31):
I'm curious, if the airline doesn't have an aircraft on hand for a situation like this, could or would they charter a flight with another airline?

There are usually spare aircraft sitting around a hub. Finding a Pilot and Attendant crew to do a Irregular Ops Trip would be the problem. The crew needed could be scattered around the system. Takes time to get them together and get them to a 'spare' aircraft.
You are here.
 
UA444
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:22 am

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 33):

It's not the Stone Age, they could've easily used email, text alerts, noticed Goose Bay airport authorities to relay messages.

They failed. Period.
 
NickLAX
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 33):
Probably, but via who? UA doesn't operate to Goose Bay, they have no direct representatives on the ground there.

Then UA should have better procedural with their FA's/Purser to handle emergency situations like this until UA agents can be be at that location.

I've been stranded in Northern Canada with Virgin once and their purser went out of their way to keep us informed and they did MUCH more considering they had less staffing a few hours away.

I get diversions happen ; UA *EVEN* to destinations they serve on a diversion is abysmal post merger. I was a 20 year 1K and can tell you zero issues on diversions not being handled well PM-UA, Merged UA is another beast with a small airline mentality trying to run what was the largest world airline. I've been stranded by UA post merger twice in locations they flew from on diversions and they told me - you won't get out till 3 days. Suffice to say our agency booked another routing and I left a few hours later each time.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:40 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 35):
noticed Goose Bay airport authorities to relay messages.

Which they may have actually done. I don't know. If the messages didn't get through for whatever reason, the passengers wouldn't either.

There were clearly several failures in this circumstance, though passenger dramatics aside, I don't think the accommodations were one of them under the circumstances. Communication clearly was one and the ridiculousness of customer service via Twitter (which was pushed in recent UA trainings) was shown in this situation.

Quoting NickLAX (Reply 36):
Suffice to say our agency booked another routing and I left a few hours later each time.

Which is why as an agent I often advise passengers who are working with a corporate travel office or agency to try contacting their people if I can't find them something suitable. The fact is, I, as an agent of the airline, only have access to seats available for sale on the airline I represent and the airlines they have interline agreements with... and on those other airlines only if it will not cause an oversale situation.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
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Jamake1
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:20 am

Quoting GreenArc (Reply 11):
This is merely prelude to a total summer meltdown. United is arguably in the worst shape since the merger: Persistent IT issues. Staffing issues. No parts. No mechanics. Adversarial management/employee relations. Resources stretched to the breaking point. Everything outsourced to the lowest bidder.

There is something systemically wrong at UA and it starts at the top.

Record profits and a sadly neglected operation.
Quoting NickLAX (Reply 36):

I get diversions happen ; UA *EVEN* to destinations they serve on a diversion is abysmal post merger. I was a 20 year 1K and can tell you zero issues on diversions not being handled well PM-UA, Merged UA is another beast with a small airline mentality trying to run what was the largest world airline.

Truer words have never been spoken. Chicago, we have a problem...
Come fly the sun.
 
N1120A
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RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:11 am

A plane definitely should have been available - RONing somewhere. You're telling me they couldn't find 2 pilots and 3 FAs who were willing to earn overtime and help some people? Out of their NYC or EWR bases? LOL. Of course they could. They just didn't.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 9):
Once again can you find decent accomadations for several hundred people in Goose bay?

Accommodations. YYR is a well known diversion point, and I'm sure there is more than just some military barracks with no blankets and proper beds.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 9):
Mistreated? How?

Really?

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
Replacement flights. They need only look toward DL for guidance on how to do this, apparently.

Seriously. This isn't the middle of the ocean. You can bring in a 737. You can book people on AC.

Quoting flylku (Reply 13):
Really? Were you there? I'll give the crew who were there the benefit of the doubt. And, given that they are working throughout the entire ordeal, they should have what limited accommodations are available.

The passengers should have at least as good as the crew get.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 19):
They did get a replacement flight. You think that all the Airlines have widebodies sitting around all the time?

They sent them to EWR, for crying out loud. That takes a 737. They could have booked some folks on AC via YHZ. That would have taken FAR less than 20 hours.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 26):
On the other, it does seem a bit poor of a response time from UA. EWR is 2 hours away. IAD is 2. ORD is 3. Even a 739 could probably bring them all back to civilization. So not particularly impressive IRROPS options at the hubs, evidently.

Not to mention that this happened around 1030 p.m. Eastern, which means that they should have had some planes RONing at EWR and IAD.

Quoting compensateme (Reply 32):
- It took over 20 hours to get a replacement aircraft into Goose Bay, and then passengers were flown to Newark first (and were required to have all their baggage re-screened/etc.).

Yeah, which is a joke.

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 33):
Probably, but via who? UA doesn't operate to Goose Bay, they have no direct representatives on the ground there.

Air Canada Express flies in. They shouldn't have had a problem. In fact, given that this was an A++ TATL flight, AC has skin in the game.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 34):
There are usually spare aircraft sitting around a hub. Finding a Pilot and Attendant crew to do a Irregular Ops Trip would be the problem. The crew needed could be scattered around the system. Takes time to get them together and get them to a 'spare' aircraft.

Sounds like a SHARES problem. You can't tell me that there were no available 737 or Airbus pilots and no available FAs, in UA's entire set of bases at NYC, EWR and WAS. You also can't tell me that they couldn't put people on AC via YHZ and YYT, which would have still gotten them out of there faster.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:28 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):

Not to mention that this happened around 1030 p.m. Eastern, which means that they should have had some planes RONing at EWR and IAD.

Agree. They could have done better, but chose not too. I think thats the New United mission statement.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
Nouflyer
Posts: 315
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:38 am

RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:32 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 2):

Yep - leaving the passengers to freeze in a barracks in Goose Bay with no food from midday to 7 pm is making waves in England!

The list of things that United could or should have done better is endless.

Everyone gets that Goose Bay is remote and has minimal infrastructure. Yes, they were probably going to have to stay in the barracks.

But United behaved like FlyGlobespan in completely cutting off contact with their passengers so that:

1) The passengers could not feed back that they were freezing cold with 2 sheets and 0 blankets. That should have been a message quickly picked up and rectified.

2) The passengers should have been fed properly. There are over a dozen restaurants in Goose Bay, and they weren't given access to any of them. And it was incumbent upon United to feed them properly because......

3) The airline had failed to prioritise getting a replacement airplane to evacuate the stranded passengers. They instead diverted another Trans-Atlantic airplane many, many hours later - having failed to ensure that the passengers were warm or well-fed in the interim.

4) The airline failed to remain in regular contact with the passengers. There are telephones in Canada. There are people in Goose Bay who could have and should have been recruited to liaise with the passengers and coordinate their care during the stopover.

This is a serious failure in customer service. It's not okay to say "hey, we didn't fly you into the ocean, be grateful".
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14559
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:29 am

What financial or competitive incentive does UA or other major airline have to really take care of pax ? What incentive or benefit does Goose Bay or other small, isolated designated diversion airport have to be prepared for a large diversion ? The local and national governments as well as airlines doesn't want to spend money on a very low need diversion airport. How would the ME3 or BA or Singapore Airlines done in a similar situation ? Probably not much better.
In the end, it is about money, keeping up the short-term profits high, giving the cheapest possible service to pax to max profits, not having reserve aircraft and staff on short notice, with narrowing choices as to airlines, and airlines still put the priority on safety, UA and other airlines will deal with such situations in the least costly way.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:27 pm

The military barracks get used about once a year for transatlantic diversions. While not comfortable, Goose Bay does have the ability to accommodate people over night. I think many people are forgetting how remote and small of a city it is and how difficult it is to support an airplane grounded in a city of 7,000 people.

Air France passengers staying overnight after a diversion
http://www.thelabradorian.ca/News/20...e-Bay-after-system-failure-alarm/1

Lufthansa passengers staying overnight after a diversion for a false alarm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfou...ency-landing-in-labrador-1.1040843

From a logistics standpoint, getting the passengers to the accommodations for the night and then sending a rescue plane in the morning makes the most sense. The airplane arrived in the middle of the night in YYR. There are virtually no services available at night in YYR. Typically there are no night time arrivals or departures. A rescue flight with a timed out crew, no catering, and no one to fuel it or dispatch the airplane does not help anyone.

United did schedule a rescue 767 to YYR about 9 hours after the diversion. The way airlines work, that is not that bad for an international flight to an airport that the airline does not fly to. Unfortunately the rescue flight being delayed 5 hours did not help anyone.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):

Quoting flylku (Reply 13):
Really? Were you there? I'll give the crew who were there the benefit of the doubt. And, given that they are working throughout the entire ordeal, they should have what limited accommodations are available.

The passengers should have at least as good as the crew get.

If the crew is inadequately rested, the flight can get delayed longer. If the passengers are uncomfortable, it does not prevent them from getting to their destination. Depending on what the failure is, getting the crew debriefed and then to hotels for their rest period is vital when a diversion happens. If a new crew is not available, or if the crew that brings a replacement airplane is limited in duty time, you want the crew that flew the diverted airplane to be available. When only limited hotels are available, every airline that I know of first arranges for the crew. They are the ones working and needing to able to work the flight out if required. The hierarchy usually goes, Pilots, Flight Attendants, First, Business then Coach. It wouldn’t surprise me that if they found some rooms, first class passengers got them.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Quoting antoniemey (Reply 33):
Probably, but via who? UA doesn't operate to Goose Bay, they have no direct representatives on the ground there.

Air Canada Express flies in. They shouldn't have had a problem. In fact, given that this was an A++ TATL flight, AC has skin in the game.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Not to mention that this happened around 1030 p.m. Eastern, which means that they should have had some planes RONing at EWR and IAD.

Yes there are planes available. There aren’t always crew available at that time of night. Finding a crew to operate a plane can take a bit of time, especially outside of the normal times when a reserve crew would be called up.

At midnight there also are limited services available. There is virtually no chance of catering a midnight special flight out of EWR. Also what happens when they get to YYR? Is there anyone working at 3am that would be able to get all the passengers to the airplane? All the airlines have contracts with the FBOs in YYR because it is a common diversion point, but handling the passengers in the middle of the night is not particularly easy. You’ll also need maintenance & fuel available which might not be that easy in the middle of the night in YYR. YYR on a normal night has zero flights between 8pm and 8am.

Let's not forget that American once diverted here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/facility/images/eareckson_shemya-island.jpg
Imagine how bad that would have been if they got stuck overnight

[Edited 2015-06-15 06:17:56]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
windy95
Posts: 2763
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 43):
Roseflyer

Great post
 
ckfred
Posts: 5168
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:28 pm

I'm curious as to why the aircraft diverted to Goose Bay, rather than Gander or St. John's. Both are larger cities that presumably would have more hotel rooms, and presumably more commercial facilities to handle a widebody aircraft.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 45):
I'm curious as to why the aircraft diverted to Goose Bay, rather than Gander or St. John's. Both are larger cities that presumably would have more hotel rooms, and presumably more commercial facilities to handle a widebody aircraft.

Usually the flight crew manuals are very clear on if they require a diversion to nearest suitable airport or not. The airlines all have lists of airports that are capable of handling an airplane that diverts. The crew does not get much of a choice. The FAA will come down hard on an airline that chooses to divert to an airport that is farther away if there is a failure that requires nearest suitable airport. Airlines can argue about if YYR is suitable or not, but they do maintain the capability to provide adequate accommodations. For the purpose of the FAA, a military barrack for sleeping and meals is adequate. Providing everyone a hotel room is not required.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
The passengers should have at least as good as the crew get.

If the passengers have a sleepless night, they can sleep on the flight out in the morning. If the crew have a sleepless night, the flight out in the morning doesn't happen. So that's a very good reason for the crew to get priority on hotels (in addition to the fact that it's easier to find rooms for a few crew than a plane full of passengers).

Quoting ckfred (Reply 45):
I'm curious as to why the aircraft diverted to Goose Bay, rather than Gander or St. John's. Both are larger cities that presumably would have more hotel rooms, and presumably more commercial facilities to handle a widebody aircraft.

Probably because Goose Bay was closer at the time. Some problems require a diversion to the nearest suitable airport.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 2216
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:50 pm

Did we find out what the cause of the diversion was yet?
 
codc10
Posts: 2656
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: United 958 Diversion 6/13

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 34):
That is our line of work, get one there safely.

Nobody is questioning the judgment of the flight crew to divert to the nearest suitable facility upon the identification of a critical safety issue, but...


Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
A plane definitely should have been available - RONing somewhere. You're telling me they couldn't find 2 pilots and 3 FAs who were willing to earn overtime and help some people? Out of their NYC or EWR bases? LOL. Of course they could. They just didn't.

... what happened next was an unmitigated disaster and a symptom of the underlying problem this airline has in its complete inability to get out of first gear in the post-merger process. Too many layers of management, a culture of fear, lack of common sense, poor coordination and too much emphasis on trying to do things on the cheap. For all intents and purposes, company is still, operationally, two airlines (maybe 1.5 if one is inclined to be generous).

There's plenty of blame to go around, but the real question is why are these operational meltdowns continuing to occur years into the process? I don't see similar instances happening with such regularity at Delta.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Sounds like a SHARES problem

Don't think so.

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