Kashmon
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 35):

not really
CX would be 4 daily to SFO

and CX always offers competitive pricing...

and CX did not get anything in return from SIN

but typical HK, likes to get trampled by others...
 
jetblue1965
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:41 pm

I have no issues with ME3 opening routes that were previously unflown. If QR wants to link DOH-ATH-SFO, by all means go for it.

However, I do have an issue when it's like MXP-JFK where it was already a well-served route (3 airlines on MXP-JFK plus 1 more at MXP-EWR), and EK ends up flooding the market with low fares.

I passed through DFW this past weekend (first time ever, and yes I was flying AA), and that lone EK A380 at Terminal D in the morning just reinforced the notion that their A380s are destroying yields for all market participants.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 50):

I actually think EK still has the rights for the DXB-HAM-JFK route if I remember correctly.
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scbriml
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:45 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 46):
If one or even multiple of those flights become financially unviable,

If...

Until then, IF it happens, the flying public gets more choice and competition.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 46):
I would take any bet that Emirates' multiple daily A380 flights are significantly impairing the viability of direct flights to secondary or tertiary markets for BA.

So on which secondary/tertiary markets are BA taking a bath?
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ytz
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 46):
A hub works by distributing low amounts of people each from a large number of destinations onto a connecting flight.
Quoting AviationAware (Reply 46):
If one or even multiple of those flights become financially unviable, this can lead to a chain reaction causing other routes to drop in performance.The result is a loss of direct flights from the carriers economic area, causing damage to that areas economy in excess of the benefit an x+nth flight to an established market would generate.

But BA (and AF-KL and LH group) itself engages in the very same practice across the Atlantic. How much of a market do you think there'd be, for example, between the EU and India, if it wasn't for all the Indian-Americans traveling? The UK maybe has a bit (it'd be a lot smaller than today). But I'd question o/d between Frankfurt (or Paris) and India. This is what makes the complaints so hypocritical.

So I'm curious. Why is it acceptable for the European carriers to hub and fly North Americans and Indians back and forth, but not for the ME3 to do so?

We could always "level the playing field" like people want and restrict sixth freedom traffic through Europe. This might finally force the North American carriers to fly directly to India.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 49):
Why are people here so astonished that cities ask for more connections?
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 49):
If EU and USA airlines leave the market wide open, nobody should be astonished when somebody else steps in.

Exactly. The growth of the ME3 in so many ways is the direct result of European carriers abandoning markets. It started in the very beginning, when the European carriers decided to stop serving DXB, prompting the ruler of Dubai at the time to launch Emirates. EK then grew its sixth freedom business very nicely, because the European carriers refused to open up new routes to South and Southeast Asia. And as they've remained steadfast in that insistence (or always late to the party), the ME3 have found more space to grow in North America. Opening up fifth-freedom TATL is simply another logical consequence of the EU3's (and the US3's) decisions, specifically to abandon long-haul from secondary markets. And this has all been made worse by the wave of mergers, leaving Europe and North America with several large carriers and hubs, leaving smaller and medium sized cities with poorer connections.
 
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Aquila3
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:59 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 52):
However, I do have an issue when it's like MXP-JFK where it was already a well-served route (3 airlines on MXP-JFK plus 1 more at MXP-EWR),

Well, I reckon you have an issue. The flying public, and the city of Milan (that is the majority shareolder of the airport company, SEA, last time I checked) seems not to me. On the contrary. I even do not think the market is saturated or "flooded".
Many times myself I had to fly thru CDG / FRA when I had to organize a business trip on short notice.
The city ov Milan is kept artificially small as a number of inhabitants considering that all the neighborhood belongs to many separated "villages" of 100K people or so. The catch area of MXP is roughly 8-10 million people, and it is still the most economically relevant in Italy (and maybe in Sud Europe) by any metrics you want to use. So, please let the people decide which airplane they want to take. I am pretty much sure that many are chosing EK also on the other side of the pond, impossible as it seems.
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Freshside3
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 56):

MXP also gets people that come over the border from Switzerland, as well, into the mix of people that use that airport.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 56):

Well, I reckon you have an issue. The flying public, and the city of Milan (that is the majority shareolder of the airport company, SEA, last time I checked) seems not to me. On the contrary. I even do not think the market is saturated or "flooded".

Of course there are some who just want cheap fares, all else be d*mned.

Once the new challengers force the legacy incumbents off a route, it would be foolish to think they would keep prices just as low. Prices are always set at what the market can handle, not what makes customers happy.

Ask yourself this - if Air Koryo would fly you MXP to JFK for EUR 99 roundtrip, would you take it (knowing that your revenue contributions go straight to oppressing people) ?
 
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 23):
The Greek government has requested a DXB ATH JFK service for example - as the service is only flown seasonally.

I figured ATH had to be one of the cities since it's down to just seasonal nonstop TATL service. DL (and of course OA) used to fly year-round until a few years ago. Now there's only seasonal DL JFK-ATH and US PHL-ATH.
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mjoelnir
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 58):
Once the new challengers force the legacy incumbents off a route, it would be foolish to think they would keep prices just as low. Prices are always set at what the market can handle, not what makes customers happy.

So in other words you say that the legacy´s would never be able to compete and a new competitor would always force them out.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 60):

So in other words you say that the legacy´s would never be able to compete and a new competitor would always force them out.

No, I never said that. If the competition is fair, everyone should be able to compete. If they don't start with a level playing field, then all bets are off.

If a new competitor with infinite pockets come into the market and flood it with loss-leading 2.0cpm fares, how do you EXPECT the incumbents to compete?

The North Transpacific market is a good example of healthy competition. Tons of airline choices, many of good quality, and yet no one is dumping A380s where they aren't needed.
 
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:50 pm

Quoting MKIAZ (Reply 26):
I do understand how this could be bad news for LH, AF/KL, IAG, ect, but putting up barriers to "protect" them isn't doing the general public any favours.

Barriers are simply called borders. This is about who staffs and runs the flight within a country, and between bilaterals.

If any country can fly a given bilateral, we can expect Air Koryo to fly it, or Foxconn will set up Vietnamese crewed aircraft to do trips trans Atlantic. No Western crews would ever be involved in the Atlantic market -- their cost is too great. Wouldn't FAA rules on duty time also be voided in that scenario?

I dont see how either EK or Delta with its pilots making $350k+ is going ot survive in that environment. Any RJ pilot from SE Asia is legally qualified do do widebody Atlantic routes.

Nobody intended for 5th freedom to get far that out of control.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 58):

Ask yourself this - if Air Koryo would fly you MXP to JFK for EUR 99 roundtrip, would you take it (knowing that your revenue contributions go straight to oppressing people) ?

Exactly
 
SR4ever
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:03 pm

I hope LUX will be one of them, woud be just great.
 
BestWestern
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting Kashmon (Reply 51):



Since when do Cathay offer competitive prices on point to point services?

Their non stop fares ex HKG are crazily high.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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Aquila3
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:43 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 58):
Of course there are some who just want cheap fares, all else be d*mned.

Once the new challengers force the legacy incumbents off a route, it would be foolish to think they would keep prices just as low. Prices are always set at what the market can handle, not what makes customers happy.

Ask yourself this - if Air Koryo would fly you MXP to JFK for EUR 99 roundtrip, would you take it (knowing that your revenue contributions go straight to oppressing people) ?

No, it is not only a matter of prices. They are often comparable and surely they will be when the market has adjusted, as you say..There is also a matter of service. Just to give you an easy example on the matter the Y product of EK on a 380 will beat your US3 and AZ hands down.

Ans the parallel that you do with Air Koryo is laughable. EK is a normal business, different from your US3 ones, but as well legitimate by the standing laws. I do not see it immoral at all, at lest no more that AZ or DL. And again, that area needs additional (and possibly better ?) service. Let the paying customers decide please.
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lesfalls
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:50 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 63):

That would be nice to have service to LUX again (after FI and Luxair stopped operating the route to JFK).
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2travel2know2
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 18):
EK CANNOT be prevented from operating fifth freedom between the USA and Europe, by the USA, unless you cancel the Open Skies treaty, in accordance with it provisions (usually 12 months notice), good luck in getting that through State/DOC!

True, but Could the U.S. (given-up to pressure from U.S. big 3) encourage EK to fly Europe - U:S. airport pairs not flown by the U.S. big 3 and not those already flown by them?
Same for Europe - U.S. 5th freedom, could European Civil aviation authorities have a saying in getting EK to fly to U.S.A. via secondary airports rather than via their major markets main airports?
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s4popo
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:18 pm

My guess of possible cities involved are ATH, BUD, PRG, HAM, ARN, GVA, VCE, LED, NCE, LYS
 
VCy
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:30 pm

I think LCA asked for one as well. They are trying to get more and more routes. The last JFK service we had here was in the 90s when GF operated BAH-LCA-JFK
 
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cougar15
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:35 pm

Add CGN/ Cologne to the list, they are not impressed that DUS (25 miles down the Autobahn away) has both EY & EK, whilst they have nothing!
And that in one of the biggest catchment Areas in all of Europe. ......
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jetblue1965
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 65):
EK is a normal business, different from your US3 ones, but as well legitimate by the standing laws.

Legitimate by *what* laws ? Air Koryo is perfectly "legal" by DPRK laws too.

Ask yourself another question - if ALL other incumbents exit the route and now EK is the only nonstop option left on MXP-NYC and quotes the lowest fare as EUR 2500 in economy because they have a monopoly, how would you feel ? Still ecstatic about them ?
 
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Aquila3
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 71):
Legitimate by *what* laws ? Air Koryo is perfectly "legal" by DPRK laws too.

I do not know how this is so difficult to understand. International laws an threaties like open skies. The highest administrative Court in Italy has just stated that , that the EK position at MXP is at the moment compliant with the Italian law. Not the Korean or the UAE. There was no complant on the US side, that I am aware of.
BTW the trick let Justice persecute your competitors in place of competing with them seems to me more suitable of places like that North Korea than the liberal and capitalist US or EU.
And about that single operator scenario you fear it is a lot less possible than having only an AZ-AF-DL-Sky choice .
If anyboy knows something about monopolist practices, they do.
I am not ecstatic about EK. I just like to have one more option when I need it. That is ONE . MORE . OPTION .
I promise , I will fly even AF when absolutely necessary.
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jetblue1965
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 72):

I do not know how this is so difficult to understand. International laws an threaties like open skies. The highest administrative Court in Italy has just stated that , that the EK position at MXP is at the moment compliant with the Italian law. Not the Korean or the UAE. There was no complant on the US side, that I am aware of.

Maybe you missed all the threads about Italy currently reviewing the route's validity ?

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 72):

I am not ecstatic about EK. I just like to have one more option when I need it. That is ONE . MORE . OPTION .

And when they're done destroying the incumbents with below-market fares, they'll be the ONE . ONLY . OPTION.

Just ask people who wanted to fly STN-NYC how well that worked out for them.
 
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Aquila3
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 73):
Maybe you missed all the threads about Italy currently reviewing the route's validity ?

Of course the opponents have brought EK to the court .
But the court has decided. In favor of EK. And in favour of what most of us like, I gathered.
I must say I was surprised, too of the liberal approach of our Court.
I believe the next step would be for AF & co to bring them in front of some EU court. Nothing wrong with that.
We are not North Korea. In the meantime, let the business work as it should.
Get over it. Tell your friends to stop crying and get to work to give us better options.
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jetblue1965
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:47 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 72):

I am not ecstatic about EK. I just like to have one more option when I need it. That is ONE . MORE . OPTION .

Right ... as if 4 airlines spanning 3 alliances is not enough options for you.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 74):
Tell your friends to stop crying and get to work to give us better options.

What friends? Some strawman inside your head ?

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 74):
In the meantime, let the business work as it should.

So you believe in pure laissez faire irregardless of anything else ?

You never answered my question : If Air Koryo, being 100% compliant with EU and US law, flies you EUR 99 MXP-JFK, but you know the revenue and profits all go towards oppressing their own people and building nuclear weapons for an metally-unstable dictator, would you buy it ? Because that's what I see - the finest level of hypocrisy in you.
 
rutankrd
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:55 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 73):
And when they're done destroying the incumbents with below-market fares, they'll be the ONE . ONLY . OPTION.

Just ask people who wanted to fly STN-NYC how well that worked out for them.

Drivel !

Actually given the close relationships between MAG Group (Stansted and Manchester Airport owners) and Emirates a DXB-STN-JFK/BOS routing could very well work.

And it could tell prove popular both Eat and West - I am sure there is a large and valuable in yield potential market in Cambridge and Essex that would prefer Not to drive 55 miles round the M25 !

BTW Emirates are far from cheap especially out of the UK - they don't need to dump fares.
 
UALWN
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 41):
HAM has good reasons to ask for this, but I see no need for the others, which are either already well served or could be better served by the existing TATL airlines, they have no need to ask EK for this.

I don't think BCN, for instance, is particularly well served. In Nov 2015, for instance, only AA will have daily flights to the US. UA and DL will have less than daily service to NYC and that's all. Something like DXB-BCN-ORD would make me very happy. Of course, UA or AA could decide to fly BCN-ORD too, but the point is that they haven't...
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steex
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting Kashmon (Reply 30):
those should be stopped as well

CX gets nothing in return from letting SQ operate to SFO and help bolster UA...
Quoting Kashmon (Reply 51):
not really
CX would be 4 daily to SFO

and CX always offers competitive pricing...

and CX did not get anything in return from SIN

but typical HK, likes to get trampled by others...

It's not as black-and-white as you make it, though. Your argument completely overlooks the fact that there is traffic between Singapore and San Francisco (or more broadly, the USA in general), but the numbers don't really work for it to be flown non-stop due to the distances involved. This is where fifth freedoms make sense. Why should airlines based in countries coincidentally located between Singapore and the USA reap the benefits of these traffic flows without the airlines actually based in the countries generating the traffic having the opportunity to profitably participate?

By the way, it would be worthwhile to note that CX utilizes fifth freedom rights to fly BKK-SIN as well, and operates a plethora of fifth freedom routes to points in Japan which can easily be reached nonstop (and in fact are also flown nonstop by CX). Let's not pretend CX isn't playing the same game in other places.
 
SR4ever
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:19 pm

Quoting s4popo (Reply 68):
My guess of possible cities involved are ATH, BUD, PRG, HAM, ARN, GVA, VCE, LED, NCE, LYS

ATH, BUD, PRG, HAM, VCE, LYS and NCE are quite probable

LED, I don't thinh the US-Russia Bilateral would allow it

GVA already has some TATL flights, doubtful

ARN, yes and and no, as Sweden cannot let SK go


I d also say BCN, GLA, LCA or MLA
 
Marvinhsv
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 7):
It wasn't very successful though.

That was quite some time ago though. Now EK operates double daily with 77W and they're always full - both pax and especially cargo.

On the other hand United just announced to finally send us some 767s instead of 757s so I'm not sure if the market is big enough. During winter United used to have 4-weekly service IIRC compared to daily during the summer.
 
Scorp82
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:04 pm

Even if people think that EK should not encroach in the trans-Atlantic Europe-USA services, there are at least 10 or more European cities that would love to be connected or have further connections to the States via EK. I'm certain these same cities have asked major carriers in Europe and the US3 to commence additional services, but nothing seems to happen. There are plenty of underserved markets as well. Speaks volumes, doesn't it?
 
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Btblue
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:22 pm

I think if Emirates want to offer the service, and there are no more than two indigenous airlines currently operating the service then they or any of the M3 or, Russian, Turkish, Greek, German - whatever airline should be allowed to operate. It's good for competition and good for keeping prices down.

Personally I think Emirates will continue to drive inroads to European markets demanding and getting onward flying rights.
 
r2rho
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 55):
Opening up fifth-freedom TATL is simply another logical consequence of the EU3's (and the US3's) decisions, specifically to abandon long-haul from secondary markets. And this has all been made worse by the wave of mergers, leaving Europe and North America with several large carriers and hubs, leaving smaller and medium sized cities with poorer connections.

The mergers and the TATL JV's mean that de facto there are only 3 airlines across the Atlantic, who all want to route pax through their hubs and have litle interest in serving non hub cities nonstop. And thanks to the JV's, there is no loss for them in routing pax on 1 or 2 stops via hubs, since the money stays in the JV anyway. IMO TATL service from secondary cities has worsened in the last 5-10 years. It should be little surprise that cities neglected by the USEU3 would warmly welcome EK nonstop service.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 77):
I don't think BCN, for instance, is particularly well served. In Nov 2015, for instance, only AA will have daily flights to the US. UA and DL will have less than daily service to NYC and that's all. Something like DXB-BCN-ORD would make me very happy. Of course, UA or AA could decide to fly BCN-ORD too, but the point is that they haven't...

Agree and even AA could do more, it is only since early this year that they have started tapping into VY feed despite having been in the same alliance for ages now. BCN could support more TATL than it does.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 80):
On the other hand United just announced to finally send us some 767s instead of 757s so I'm not sure if the market is big enough. During winter United used to have 4-weekly service IIRC compared to daily during the summer.

HAM-EWR was very long overdue for a 767 (even bigger in the summer). The fact that the route has been underserved for so long is not due to lack of demand, but lack of available aircraft at UA (the arrival of 787's has freed up the 767 for this route) plus no hurry to do so since they could route pax via FRA thanks to the TATL JV.
 
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enilria
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 79):
My guess of possible cities involved are ATH, BUD, PRG, HAM, ARN, GVA, VCE, LED, NCE, LYS

Don't forget LGW. I think they would ask anybody to fly LGW-USA.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):

EK will not be allowed to do many more of these EU-USA flights. It does not serve our interests. The regulations will be changed for some crazy reason they allow this. It is silly to believe we will allow this.

It serves my interests just fine. And I think a lot of business & VFR travellers agree.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 24):
The Irish government have actively sought carriers to route through dublin. (Ethiopian) or tag dublin onto a route through offering relaxed fifth freedoms.

I remember when SU had a tech stop there from IAD-SVO (back in the Il-62 days). Was this part of that deal too?

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 46):
If one or even multiple of those flights become financially unviable, this can lead to a chain reaction causing other routes to drop in performance.

That's not how hubbing works. By having small numbers of folks from a lot of other destinations fill a given flight, the route is kept much more stable than it otherwise would have been. While there are always certain economic pressures at hand, this model ameliorates most of that.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 55):
So I'm curious. Why is it acceptable for the European carriers to hub and fly North Americans and Indians back and forth, but not for the ME3 to do so?

The impulse reaction I have to that one is that it's probably racism/xenophobia. But I think it's something more sinister than even that. The ME3 have a cost structure that the US3 cannot match easily. While they technically do have it within their power to improve product and reduce costs, they won't be able to. They can't match the labor utilization that EK get, given that their unions essentially have them on lock down. There are also a lot of other structural issues they face (they do the vast majority of their business in a country with much higher operating costs than the UAE & Qatar choose to burden their carriers with). For the Cartel to be able to compete here, they would have to fundamentally reinvent themselves, and since all of them have just done that, it's not that palatable an option. So their best recourse is to 'run home to mama' and beg the gov't to disregard its constituency's needs.

That won't work, of course. But we can count on another round of their shananigans in a few more years when the Chinese carriers gain scope and relevance here. Whatever popcorn you think you need now, better get that times two when that moment comes.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 58):
Of course there are some who just want cheap fares, all else be d*mned.

There's an awful lot more to it than that. As an example, going to BHX from LAX, I'd take BA or KL over EK since I'm not willing to back haul seven hours each way (though when EK are able to open an LAX - LHR, which is probably inevitable at some point, this will change).

There's also the question of overall product quality. This actually does matter (a great deal more than apologists want to admit) when you fly as much as many of us do. Where service and hard product metrics are concerned, the US3 have yet to even show up to this game.

And finally, yes. Cheap is good. If EK can deliver what they do for less, and they do, then there's no reason they shouldn't be the winner here. Just as a point of order though, they aren't always the cheapest guys around. And their planes are still full.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 58):
Once the new challengers force the legacy incumbents off a route, it would be foolish to think they would keep prices just as low. Prices are always set at what the market can handle, not what makes customers happy.

I'm sure you're right in that there would be some demand based rising. But honestly, it's more likely that that capacity windfall would be snatched up by a ULCC like DY (or AirAsia in the Pacific), and again, the pricing pressure is maintained.

Also, don't forget that EK & EY actually already do charge a nice dollar for their premium & premium + products. And folks still pay for those.

There's a lot more than price going on here...

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 58):
Ask yourself this - if Air Koryo would fly you MXP to JFK for EUR 99 roundtrip, would you take it (knowing that your revenue contributions go straight to oppressing people) ?

What's their safety and quality look like? That's important too. And how are you tracing where their revenue goes? I ask because as we know North Korea is hardly the most transparent place on Earth. For all we know, every nickle Koryo make could go straight to operations...

While I freely admit that I don't fly QR for reasons similar to your analogy (that's right, the ME3 are not all the same), if Koryo is able to offer that, competitively, pay for it fairly, then what is it I'm supposed to object to, and how far should my timeline for that go back? Should I shun QF over the plight of the Aboriginals? DL since their HQ is in a former Slave State? KL or SAA because of Apartheid? LY because of their end of ME politics?

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 61):
If a new competitor with infinite pockets come into the market and flood it with loss-leading 2.0cpm fares, how do you EXPECT the incumbents to compete?
At all would be a great start...

Quoting Flighty (Reply 62):
Nobody intended for 5th freedom to get far that out of control.

I don't know if "out of control" is the right way to word that, but as mentioned up-thread, we don't get to tear up agreements just because we don't like what they say. Bigger than any airline issue (ever) is other economies being able to give us the credibility we work very hard for here. If we start down this path, we're in for tough times ahead.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 65):
No, it is not only a matter of prices. They are often comparable and surely they will be when the market has adjusted, as you say..There is also a matter of service. Just to give you an easy example on the matter the Y product of EK on a 380 will beat your US3 and AZ hands down.

And this can't be said enough. It isn't just money. EK really are doing a better job all-around. When they start more of these, I predict that we will indeed see a bump in ticket prices for the simple fact that they will be doing business from same locations (and in some cases) with the same A/C types as their competition from the EU3. It will still be a good deal, and they'll still fill all the frequencies they can get, but I don't see a lot of SEA-LHR for $99rt happening either.
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jetblue1965
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 85):
This actually does matter (a great deal more than apologists want to admit) when you fly as much as many of us do.

I only fly about 90K miles annually on revenue tix and another 50K miles on award redemptions, so I can't speak for many.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 79):

SU used to operate LED to JFK and it does have a lot of traffic. The route would have a large profitably and many of the passengers transfer via SVO now.

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 80):

That is true but the 757 is only because it can reach HAM in the winter while the 757 will have to divert most of the time to Gander or another city. I also remember flying EK on the JFK-HAM sector and it was quite a good load but the return load was only 30 percent. Good times I suppose you can say  .
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aviationaware
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 54):
So on which secondary/tertiary markets are BA taking a bath?

None - read again. I said they would, if they were in the position to actually offer them. They are not, due to capacity constraints. So in that respect, Emirates is generating good economic value to the UK, but BA could offer more if they had the space to expand and no Emirates stealing passengers. Emirates taking 5-10 daily passengers to any given route could make or break a BA route to some secondary destination.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 55):
But BA (and AF-KL and LH group) itself engages in the very same practice across the Atlantic.

Right, with the subtle difference that all of the three have a real economy that require them to offer a diverse set of services, not just a narrow choice of top routes to New York, Hong Kong and Tokyo.

Emirates does not have this. Dubai is a plastic desert that revolves entirely around the airline and the artificial glitz they have created. So excuse me, and call me a chauvinist if you will, but I think all of the EU airlines have far better arguments in their hands when it comes to economic value.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 55):
So I'm curious. Why is it acceptable for the European carriers to hub and fly North Americans and Indians back and forth, but not for the ME3 to do so?

It's perfectly acceptable what Emirates is doing. The question is just if it's in our European economies best interest to allow them to do that. As I have said above, it probably is so long as runway expansion is excessively difficult or impossible around here.

However, you seem to criticize the lack of direct flights from America (or Canada for that matter) to India. You do realize that Emirates servicing the route via connections will actually make it harder for American airlines to open those services, not easier, do you?

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 80):
On the other hand United just announced to finally send us some 767s instead of 757s so I'm not sure if the market is big enough.

The 762 only has marginally more seats than the 752 used now. The major differences are only First class availability and a much higher share of Economy Plus seats in the Y cabin.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 85):
That's not how hubbing works.

But of course it is, and only that.
 
SR4ever
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 87):
SU used to operate LED to JFK and it does have a lot of traffic. The route would have a large profitably and many of the passengers transfer via SVO now.

Fair enough, but this was as of 3rd and 4th Freedoms, not as of 5th...
 
Robbie86
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:28 pm

My guess is that ARN is one of the ten. I did read somewhere, can't remember where, that 650 000 pax flies between Sweden and the US each year. About 50 % of these go through HUBs such as FRA, AMS or LHR. So there's definitely a market there for EK.
 
Gemuser
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 79):
LED, I don't thinh the US-Russia Bilateral would allow it

Irrelevant! The USA-Russia is irrelevant to this case. What is relevant to this case is does the Russia-UAE bilateral allow it? We already know from posts up thread that the USA-UAE bilateral allows it. So does the Russia- UAE bilateral allow it?

Gemuser
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DavidByrne
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:38 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 79):
LED, I don't think the US-Russia Bilateral would allow it

Surely it has to do with the UAE-US bilateral or whatever agreement applies, rather than having anything to do with the US-USSR bilateral?
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
SR4ever
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:01 pm

But perhaps the USA-Russia and Russia-UAE Bilaterals have provisions agains 5th freedoms...
 
steex
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:03 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 91):
Irrelevant! The USA-Russia is irrelevant to this case. What is relevant to this case is does the Russia-UAE bilateral allow it? We already know from posts up thread that the USA-UAE bilateral allows it. So does the Russia- UAE bilateral allow it?
Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 92):
Surely it has to do with the UAE-US bilateral or whatever agreement applies, rather than having anything to do with the US-USSR bilateral?

My understanding has always been that all three bilaterals are relevant. If an Airline from Country A wants to fly to Country C via Country B, then the A-C, A-B, and B-C bilaterals all need to allow that specific action. It's entirely possible that the B-C bilateral could have restrictions on fifth freedoms on some or all city pairs, hampering the efforts of a carrier from Country A to serve the route.

[Edited 2015-06-15 15:04:10]
 
dank
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:41 pm

Quoting Kashmon (Reply 30):

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 15):

those should be stopped as well

CX gets nothing in return from letting SQ operate to SFO and help bolster UA...

Not sure how it helps bolster UA. UA and SQ don't codeshare on the SIN-SFO flights (actually, i'm not even sure they codeshare on any flights even though they are both in star).
 
hz747300
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:41 pm

Quoting Kashmon (Reply 51):
CX would be 4 daily to SFO
Quoting Kashmon (Reply 51):
but typical HK, likes to get trampled by others...

I have to take issue with the first point, CX ex-HKG is not cheap. We could use an influx of LCCs like SIN and KUL have to help keep prices down. CX plays the captive audience game to the Hong Kong people. Only with the introduction of HK Express have they added 'Fun Fares' but you get no mileage, or only 25% mileage.

I would take issue with the second point as well. If HK likes to be trampled, it's not at the airport or by other airlines. In fact, of the airports in what we could call Southeast Asia, it's one of the better ones for protecting its home airline. Look what's happened to the Qantas / China Eastern Jetstar adventure, it still has not gotten off the ground.

HK people WILL get trampled by China but they have no choice in the matter.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Gemuser
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:03 am

Quoting steex (Reply 94):
It's entirely possible that the B-C bilateral could have restrictions on fifth freedoms on some or all city pairs, hampering the efforts of a carrier from Country A to serve the route.

Very, very unlikely. I suppose it is possible, but in 40 years of following bilaterals I have never heard of it. It is really not the business of the bilateral between Country B-C because it is covered by the A-B & A-C bilaterals.
Remember bilaterals are trade offs of various rights between countries. So it would not be in country B or C'c interest to blanket ban 5th freedom or indeed anything concerning another country as it will prevent B and/or C trading 5th freedom right with A for some other consideration from A that maybe more valuable to them than it is to A.

gemuser
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MCOGVADCA
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:14 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
It does not serve our interests.

It absolutely does serve the public flying interest. More choice results in more competition which results in better prices. Europe-Asia in J has never been this cheap.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 46):
Easy, and most grahpically displayed when taking Emirates' business model as an example for how hubs work. A hub works by distributing low amounts of people each from a large number of destinations onto a connecting flight. If one or even multiple of those flights become financially unviable, this can lead to a chain reaction causing other routes to drop in performance.
The result is a loss of direct flights from the carriers economic area, causing damage to that areas economy in excess of the benefit an x+nth flight to an established market would generate.

It's not really visible because of the slot constraints in LHR, but I would take any bet that Emirates' multiple daily A380 flights are significantly impairing the viability of direct flights to secondary or tertiary markets for BA.

This argument doesn't really carry a lot of weight; in the hypothetical you outlined, LHR serving secondary and tertiary markets would require major international traffic flow to sustain them. In other words, why should BA/VS's operations at LHR take precedence as an international connecting hub over EK in Dubai? In general, flights that have enough O&D from Greater London and are geographically feasible are already served; the routes BA has lost out on are either unable to be served non-stop or relied heavily on international connections (which they have no reasonable right to claim as their own).

To put it in a different context to elucidate much of the hypocrisy in the anti-ME3 stance, and, albeit a smaller scale, I see few people complaining about COPA taking advantage of its geographical position, taking advantage of relatively cheap wages (vis a vis the States), connecting second tier cities in the US and Latin America through an efficient hub at, in general, cheaper price points. Are people really upset that now LAN or AA will have more trouble introducing Iquitos-Miami? No, of course not; people traveling from places like Iquitos, Bucaramanga, and Santa Cruz now avoid double connections and at a lower price point. Emirates does the same on a bigger scale; and barring economic calamity, there's little evidence that what EK's current ops are unsustainable. While the state is seemingly less involved in COPA than in the ME3 carriers, this is a perfectly valid comparison when addressing third party hubs.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 61):
No, I never said that. If the competition is fair, everyone should be able to compete. If they don't start with a level playing field, then all bets are off.

Who is the arbiter of what constitutes fairness? Many in other countries deem our bankruptcy laws to be unfair. Others feel that the emirate of Dubai's actions are unfair. What irks me is that the condemnation of Dubai reeks of cherry-picking; plenty of other countries have acted far more egregiously when subsidizing their national carriers, but none of these airlines were threats to Western airline hegemony, so they were largely overlooked.

Furthermore, complaints about pay ring false to me, when many of our home carriers' regional affiliates don't pay RJ pilots and cabin crew living wages.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 58):
Once the new challengers force the legacy incumbents off a route, it would be foolish to think they would keep prices just as low. Prices are always set at what the market can handle, not what makes customers happy.

Ask yourself this - if Air Koryo would fly you MXP to JFK for EUR 99 roundtrip, would you take it (knowing that your revenue contributions go straight to oppressing people) ?

Ad absurdum. There are few scenarios in which an entrenched European player would be forced off of trunk routes. Corporate contracts, flyer loyalty/FF plans, familiarity, and range of options mean that EK has major hurdles to overcome. Cheaper price points aren't going to lure these flyers away. As well, intercontinental routes to second and third tier cities rely heavily on connectivity in the vast majority of cases. So what if people have to change in DXB rather than LHR or CDG? For many of us, this is a net positive!

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 75):
Right ... as if 4 airlines spanning 3 alliances is not enough options for you.

The logical extension of this argument is that three alliances (four airlines) is sufficient competition; you neglect the very real possibility of cartel pricing. For me, for example, PVG-LAX has four airlines from three alliances serving it nonstop, and the cheapest prices for J on the US carriers are almost always within 10 dollars of each other in the mid-3000s. From Tokyo, with more competition, including 5th freedom carriers, I can get J tickets 1500 USD cheaper. That's not to say this is solely because of fifth freedom rights on TYO-LAX, but that the scenario you outline as ideal can quite obviously be problematic as well.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 88):
Emirates does not have this. Dubai is a plastic desert that revolves entirely around the airline and the artificial glitz they have created. So excuse me, and call me a chauvinist if you will, but I think all of the EU airlines have far better arguments in their hands when it comes to economic value.

Straw man, and the O&D numbers don't back your claim up at all. Again, who are you to be the arbiter of what constitutes economic value? So, do Las Vegas and Orlando not have economic value because they're made up of artificial glitz in the sand and swamp, respectively?

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 85):
That's not how hubbing works. By having small numbers of folks from a lot of other destinations fill a given flight, the route is kept much more stable than it otherwise would have been. While there are always certain economic pressures at hand, this model ameliorates most of that.

CHECKMARK.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 85):
The ME3 have a cost structure that the US3 cannot match easily. While they technically do have it within their power to improve product and reduce costs, they won't be able to. They can't match the labor utilization that EK get, given that their unions essentially have them on lock down. There are also a lot of other structural issues they face (they do the vast majority of their business in a country with much higher operating costs than the UAE & Qatar choose to burden their carriers with).

BIGGER CHECKMARK.
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2travel2know2
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 76):
Actually given the close relationships between MAG Group (Stansted and Manchester Airport owners) and Emirates a DXB-STN-JFK/BOS routing could very well work.

EK flying LON-NYC is a question of when.
The way EK is promoting itself, that's an airline which - if possible - would like a presence in most major prestigious long-haul markets, London - New York being one of them.
And due to that good relation with STN/MAN, STN wishing for an EK DXB flight and the fact EK might still don't want to go against AA/UA/BA/VS from LHR, STN is the choice.

Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 98):
To put it in a different context to elucidate much of the hypocrisy in the anti-ME3 stance, and, albeit a smaller scale, I see few people complaining about COPA taking advantage of its geographical position, taking advantage of relatively cheap wages (vis a vis the States), connecting second tier cities in the US and Latin America through an efficient hub at, in general, cheaper price points. Are people really upset that now LAN or AA will have more trouble introducing Iquitos-Miami? No, of course not; people traveling from places like Iquitos, Bucaramanga, and Santa Cruz now avoid double connections and at a lower price point. Emirates does the same on a bigger scale; and barring economic calamity, there's little evidence that what EK's current ops are unsustainable. While the state is seemingly less involved in COPA than in the ME3 carriers, this is a perfectly valid comparison when addressing third party hubs.

The EK-CM (but of course, much minor scale) comparison is common on this side of the globe.
People are now happy to avoid double connections when flying from secondary major markets in Latin America to North America plus CM has gotten AR, LA airlines, JJ, G3 and AV quite upset and pushed them to open new markets (leisure oriented PUJ, CUN, MCO are the major examples).
But if comparing to EK, unlike EK, CM has to keep a couple of sort of unsustainable routes not affect its other frequencies to those specific countries.
And a major difference, CM doesn't belong and has never belonged to the Panamanian government and sometimes it grows in-spite of whomever is ruling Panama or even some government incompetence, while EK - however not an state-owned airline - is an airline owned by that same state ruling (royal) family with full support from the state (at least Dubai, not sure from all the U.A.E. as a whole).
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
MCOGVADCA
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RE: 10 Cities In EU Asked EK For Trans-Atlantic

Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 99):
The EK-CM (but of course, much minor scale) comparison is common on this side of the globe.
People are now happy to avoid double connections when flying from secondary major markets in Latin America to North America plus CM has gotten AR, LA airlines, JJ, G3 and AV quite upset and pushed them to open new markets (leisure oriented PUJ, CUN, MCO are the major examples).
But if comparing to EK, unlike EK, CM has to keep a couple of sort of unsustainable routes not affect its other frequencies to those specific countries.
And a major difference, CM doesn't belong and has never belonged to the Panamanian government and sometimes it grows in-spite of whomever is ruling Panama or even some government incompetence, while EK - however not an state-owned airline - is an airline owned by that same state ruling (royal) family with full support from the state (at least Dubai, not sure from all the U.A.E. as a whole).

Agreed completely.

Sorry if I didn't phrase it well, just meant to say that the state-sponsored aspect is completely different for these two carriers (I know CM is a publicly traded company on the NYSE - I trade it from time to time - but I don't know the role the government plays behind the scenes. You know better than I!), but the nature of their hubs (taking advantage of geography to seamlessly serve second and third tier cities) is quite similar.
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