Paris Air Show 2015 - Engine Orders

KarelXWB · Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:00 am

The purpose of this thread is to track all engine orders during the Paris Air Show 2015 (June 15 - 21).

KarelXWB · Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:03 am

Pratt & Whitney expects to win orders for more than 500 GTF engines this week:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...pratt-orders-idUSL5N0Z00JR20150614

Someone83 · Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:06 am

Do we know the engine selection for the Saudi deal?

KarelXWB · Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:18 am

Turkish Airlines will power its A321neo fleet with PW1100G engines.

http://www.pw.utc.com/Press/Story/20150615-0500/

Quote:
Turkish Airlines has signed a Memorandum of Understanding for Pratt & Whitney's PurePower PW1100G-JM engines to power its order of 72 firm and 20 option A321neo aircraft. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2017. The PurePower engine family has completed 19,000 hours and 34,000 cycles of full engine testing, including 5,000 hours of flight time.

KarelXWB · Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:19 am

Zhejiang Loong Air signs RPFH agreement for CFM56-5B engines.

http://www.cfmaeroengines.com/press/...eement-for-cfm-leap-1a-engines/804

Quote:
China’s Zhejiang Loong Airlines has signed a Rate per Flight Hour (RPFH) agreement with CFM International to support its fleet of CFM56-5B engines.

Under the terms of the 12-year agreement, which is valued at $138 million U.S., CFM will guarantee maintenance costs for a total of 17 CFM56-5B engines on a dollar per engine flight hour basis.

EPA001 · Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:28 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Turkish Airlines will power its A321neo fleet with PW1100G engines.

I guess the PW1100G will see more and more market share on the A320-neo. I think TK made the choice I find most logical.

KarelXWB · Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:45 am

The GECAS A320neo order will be powered with CFM Leap engines.

http://www.airbus.com/no_cache/newse...-gecas-orders-60-a320neo-aircraft/

scbriml · Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:55 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
The GECAS A320neo order will be powered with CFM Leap engines.

That must be the least surprising news from Paris!

lightsaber · Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:34 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Turkish Airlines will power its A321neo fleet with PW1100G engines.

Yes.

Pratt does have a thrust advantage for the A321.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 5):
I guess the PW1100G will see more and more market share on the A320-neo. I think TK made the choice I find most logical.

I think GE must offer a thrust bump for the A321. With sales shifting toward the larger model, that only favors Pratt. Pratt has the better engine for the CEO (V2500) and the NEO. With A321 sales shifting from a minor portion of the A320 sales to a significant portion... The thrust is needed.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
The GECAS A320neo order will be powered with CFM Leap engines.

Shock!

Lightsaber

KarelXWB · Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:34 am

BOC Aviation has selected the V2500 engine to power an additional 14 A320ceo family aircraft.

http://www.pw.utc.com/Press/Story/20150615-0715/

EPA001 · Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:50 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
I think GE must offer a thrust bump for the A321. With sales shifting toward the larger model, that only favors Pratt. Pratt has the better engine for the CEO (V2500) and the NEO. With A321 sales shifting from a minor portion of the A320 sales to a significant portion... The thrust is needed.

Excellent post with which I can only agree!

Miami · Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:07 pm

Not an order but some good news from GE as production rates continue to increase:

KarelXWB · Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:46 am

Wizz Air selects V2500 engines for 17 A321 jets:

http://www.pw.utc.com/Press/Story/20150616-0201/

KarelXWB · Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:30 pm

Italian operator Neos selected RR to power its 787 fleet.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...to-take-trent-powered-787s-413670/

KarelXWB · Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:03 pm

SMBC Aviation Capital has chosen Pratt & Whitney's PW1100G-JM engine to power 30 A320neo aircraft.

http://www.pw.utc.com/Press/Story/20150616-0900/

neutronstar73 · Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:40 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
Pratt has the better engine for the CEO (V2500) and the NEO.

You wish they did!!

Whatever, Dude. I know you are a PW guy, but the numbers don't support you.

http://leehamnews.com/2013/05/02/siz...e-market-share-on-the-a320-family/
http://www.pdxlight.com/neomax.htm

CFM....all day.

817Dreamliiner · Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:34 pm

Last one for today:

Korean Air selects P&W PurePower® engines to power 30 firm + 20 option A321neos

http://twitter.com/prattandwhitney/status/610840542088290304

hilram · Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:56 pm

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 15):

You wish they did!!

Whatever, Dude. I know you are a PW guy, but the numbers don't support you.

http://leehamnews.com/2013/05/02/siz...e-market-share-on-the-a320-family/
http://www.pdxlight.com/neomax.htm

CFM....all day.

When I read what you linked to at Leeham, I see that the numbers support lightsaber's argument. Are you seeing something I do not? Or do you not read IAE (with their V2500) as PW? Remember Pratt has more than 50% ownership of IAE.

lightsaber · Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:00 am

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 15):

Per your link the V2500 is the preferred engine on the A321CEO as I noted. CFM is not delivering the thrust quite a few customers have asked for. Reread my prior post. The A321 was a small portion of A320 family sales until recently. The market is changing toward the A321.

Please also reread your link. It supports my observation. CFM was well positioned for the lower thrust applications. Since only the A321 requires high thrust, there is a reason I was specific.

The A319NEO is the next A318.
Due to improved field performance, the A321NEO will sell even better than the A321CEO. Look at the significant spike in A321 sales after the last V2500 PIP. Even LH switched to the V2500. AA bought CFM for the A319s (a wise choice) but V2500s for the A321s. The 35k thrust option for the A321NEO is non-trivial.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 16):

More Pratt A321s!

And KE was going GE....

Lightsaber

aerokiwi · Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:22 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
Per your link the V2500 is the preferred engine on the A321CEO as I noted.

Perhaps, but doesn't the last chart on the link show a massive slump for IAE production from about now that isn't made up by the PW offering on the NEO? It really falls off a cliff.

Even after you account for say a 60% win of "open" orders, PW production will be nowhere near IAE levels. I imagine that will create some cashflow headaches, though I suppose the IAE cashflow was distributed across more companies.

lightsaber · Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:58 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 19):
Perhaps, but doesn't the last chart on the link show a massive slump for IAE production from about now that isn't made up by the PW offering on the NEO? I

Now that Pratt has the same share on the V2500 and PW1100G, that chart needs to be redone combining the two (it is the same within a few percent). I see a chart where CFM has done a little better on longer lead sales, but mostly a bunch of open orders. I see a chart in 2016, 2017, and 2018 where IAE+Pratt is significantly more engines than CFM. The chart needs to be replotted as Pratt+IAE vs. CFM. There you will see Pratt drops off less steeply than CFM while CFM has a 'longer tail.'

That article is also using data from before the V2500 PIP kicked off A321 sales and Pratt announced the PW1135k. (There are "Open" 2013 slots in that graph!) Yes, CFM is ahead in the NEO sales race, but only by a little. And as the tide switches to the A321, Pratt is picking up more orders.

The A321LR is still only offered with the PW1135k (it requires the 35k thrust option which GE still hasn't signed up for)...

I'm not aware of any sales, but they will come.

Lightsaber

scbriml · Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:24 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
Yes, CFM is ahead in the NEO sales race, but only by a little. And as the tide switches to the A321, Pratt is picking up more orders.

There's also a significant number of neo sales where an engine choice has yet to be made. Of course, given CFM's exclusivity on the MAX, they will always top the overall sales, but PW's share is only going in one direction, and it isn't down.

Ab345 · Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:15 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
I'm not aware of any sales, but they will come.

Air Astana ordered the first batch of 4 yesterday to start replacing the 752. They will be leased from ALC of course

PM · Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:26 am

Well, well, well.

http://www.rolls-royce.com/news/pres...m-to-power-ethiopian-airlines.aspx

"Ethiopian Airlines has decided to take Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 engines and long-term TotalCare® support worth $500m to power six Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner aircraft.

The decision marks a significant vote of confidence in the Trent 1000, Ethiopian having previously selected engines from another provider to power 13 Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft."

I believe this is the first time on the 787 that an airline has changed preferred engines.

Interesting.

EPA001 · Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting PM (Reply 23):
I believe this is the first time on the 787 that an airline has changed preferred engines.

I think you are correct with this statement. And it is quite remarkable.

kurtverbose · Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:59 am

The market share is 60:40 in favour of GE on the 787, but is the momentum now with RR?

817Dreamliiner · Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:05 am

Avolon selects CFM LEAP-1A to power A320neo

http://www.cfmaeroengines.com/press/...s-cfm-leap-1a-to-power-a320neo/816

PM · Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:18 am

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 25):
The market share is 60:40 in favour of GE on the 787, but is the momentum now with RR?

I don't know about that but they are slowly gaining ground. And if the EK order for 70 goes to the 787 (rather than the A350) then that won't hurt either.

(Remember that Tim Clark said that RR would get the order whichever aeroplane they selected.)

mffoda · Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:14 pm

From AW...

"SMBC Buys $1.16 Billion of LEAP Engines"

"SMBC ordered 60 LEAP-1A engines and 20 LEAP-1B engines for 10 additional 737 MAX aircraft. The order is worth $1.16 billion.'

MCOflyer · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:56 am

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 22):

Air Astana ordered the first batch of 4 yesterday to start replacing the 752. They will be leased from ALC of course

Didn't HA order that model becoming the first carrier in NA to launch it????

KH

KarelXWB · Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:42 am

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 25):
The market share is 60:40 in favour of GE on the 787, but is the momentum now with RR?

Rolls-Royce is winning more and more engine orders on the 787 lately. Not so long ago their market share was less than 30%.

kurtverbose · Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:30 am

Funny, they were a slow starter on the A330 and the 777 also.

Rolls Royce - comes from behind!

PM · Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:36 am

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 31):
Funny, they were a slow starter on the A330

The Trent 700 was the last of three engines to fly on the A330 and, of course, RR had no customer base on the A300/A310 which had been all GE and PW.

To be in such a dominant position on the A330 today is nothing less than relarkable. I suspect that PW and GE rather took the A330 for granted whereas RR tried harder.

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 31):
...and the 777 also.

And they had a mountain to climb on the 777 after British Airways shocked everyone (well, me) by choosing GE. The decision also scared All Nippon away from the order for the Trent 800 they had been going to place. Thank God that Thai ordered RR and then Cathay and a small but ambitious airline called Emirates followed. But it wasn't until Singapore Airlines (hitherto a staunch PW customer) chose the Trent 800 in 1995 (I remember it well) that RR could be optimistic they had a winner on their hands.

By the time production of the -200/-200ER/-300 ended RR actually had a confortable lead over GE and PW.

Don't write off RR on the 787 just yet!

kurtverbose · Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:07 am

....and how is there even a debate in this thread?

mffoda · Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:18 pm

Does anyone have a final count on how many engines P&W and CFM sold at the airshow?

seabosdca · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:09 am

Quoting PM (Reply 23):
Interesting.

Definitely a win for RR but also sort of a special case; not sure if you can generalize from it.

First, they are intending to use these aircraft on somewhat different missions than their original batch of 787s: less long haul and more intra-Africa/Mideast/southern Europe flying. That plays to RR's specific strengths.

Second, the particular early-build aircraft they are buying were originally built for ANA and LAN and were to have RR engines. Yes, you can change the pylon to accommodate GE, but that would add some cost.

There are still three GE-powered early 787 frames to sell. If the eventual buyer of those frames converts them to RR, then you'll have something.

Chaostheory · Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
Per your link the V2500 is the preferred engine on the A321CEO as I noted.

Though that has nothing to do with thrust requirement as you imply.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
CFM is not delivering the thrust quite a few customers have asked for.

That's news to me. Care to name some of them?

We operate the CFM56 on the A321. Given the ISA+20C temp sectors the CFM56 has to put up with on a daily basis, it performs extremely well.

It is also worth keeping in mind that the highest thrust rating on the CFM56 is about 32K over 31.5K of the V2500.

At the higher thrust ratings, the only notable benefits of the V2500 over the CFM56 are significantly lower oil consumption and only slightly better performance retention.

lightsaber · Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:23 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 34):
Does anyone have a final count on how many engines P&W and CFM sold at the airshow?

I came to

Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
Of course, given CFM's exclusivity on the MAX, they will always top the overall sales, but PW's share is only going in one direction, and it isn't down.

I call the CFM-56 an industry as it has dominated for so long and now employees many people.

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 31):
Funny, they were a slow starter on the A330 and the 777 also.

RR did amazing on the A330. That was a wake up for the rest of the industry. They also did very well with the Trent 800 until GE bought the exclusivity for the 77W.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 35):
First, they are intending to use these aircraft on somewhat different missions than their original batch of 787s: less long haul and more intra-Africa/Mideast/southern Europe flying. That plays to RR's specific strengths.

Nothing wrong with playing to the strength of each engine. IMHO, RR

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 36):
Though that has nothing to do with thrust requirement as you imply.

Fair enough, what reason do you give for AA and LH switching engines on the A321 vs. the rest of their fleet?

But for the NEO, Pratt will deliver more thrust.

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 36):
It is also worth keeping in mind that the highest thrust rating on the CFM56 is about 32K over 31.5K of the V2500.

When I look at the latest curves from Airbus, the CFM56 is able to take off with more weight than the V2500... So I must concede your point.
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...data/AC/Airbus-AC_A321_May2014.pdf

Lightsaber

Chaostheory · Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:48 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
what reason do you give for AA and LH switching engines on the A321 vs. the rest of their fleet?

AA - The competition between engine manufacturers is sometimes just as fierce as that between Airbus and Boeing. I don't know what swayed AA to choose the V2500 over the CFM on the A321. Money (ie the overall package) was probably the deciding factor.

LH - As long as LH runs the largest airline MRO operation in the world, they will always remain an odd ball where aircraft and engine fleets are concerned.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
When I look at the latest curves from Airbus, the CFM56 is able to take off with more weight than the V2500

That has always been the case.

The V2500's change in fortunes on the A321 followed the SelectOne build standard.

lightsaber · Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:32 pm

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 38):
The V2500's change in fortunes on the A321 followed the SelectOne build standard.

Agreed (what I called a PIP). Select two helped and Select three is being marketed.

Then there will be the PW1135G

. When will CFM have an engine for the A321LR? Not important as of yet as that variant doesn't come out until 2019 and requires the "Advantage" PIP for the PW1135G.

Lightsaber

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