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American 767
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What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:09 pm

Most A350 customers are opting for the -900 and -1000 variants, referred as A359 and A358 respectively. According to wiki, only 16 of all the A350 orders are of the 800 variants. I believe that 18 of the 22 A359s American has on order were originally A358s ordered by US.
Is Airbus still offering the A358 to its customers? Or it will eventually decide not to make it available anymore? I think that Airbus is trying to convince its A358 customers to convert their orders to A359s.

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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:16 pm

AFAIK Airbus do not want to make the -800 version.

Some customers have upgraded to -900 and I think some ( HA ?) have swapped them for A330neos.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:17 pm

I though it was cancelled with the remaining customer either opting for 330NEO or 359
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:20 pm

Airbus has admitted that development of the A358 has been cancelled, but it is still technically on the books/offered as long as it has orders. Of course no one is going to order it if there is no clear indication on when it would be available, so it is getting the A380F treatment- Airbus is working on getting the current remaining customers to transfer to the A330neo or other A350 variants (or outright cancel, although obviously that is not choice #1), then going to quietly withdraw the A358.

[Edited 2015-06-15 14:22:00]
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:27 pm

Just Asiana and Aeroflot with 8 each left officially.
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):
Most A350 customers are opting for the -900 and -1000 variants, referred as A359 and A358 respectively. According to wiki, only 16 of all the A350 orders are of the 800 variants. I believe that 18 of the 22 A359s American has on order were originally A358s ordered by US.
Is Airbus still offering the A358 to its customers? Or it will eventually decide not to make it available anymore? I think that Airbus is trying to convince its A358 customers to convert their orders to A359s.

Unmm, where to start… A350-800 aka A358 has been cancelled. The A330-800 and -900 have been launched. All A358 customers have selected either the A330neo or A359 instead.

The -1000 variant is NOT referred to as the A358, it is correctly the A35J (denoted by the 10th letter of the alphabet), and sometimes the A351. The mooted A350-1100 should therefore be the A35K.

AA has converted -800 series orders to -900. HA has converted -800 series to A339's. Have a look on the Airbus order sheet or Wiki for full details.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:42 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 5):
Unmm, where to start… A350-800 aka A358 has been cancelled. The A330-800 and -900 have been launched. All A358 customers have selected either the A330neo or A359 instead.

The -1000 variant is NOT referred to as the A358, it is correctly the A35J (denoted by the 10th letter of the alphabet), and sometimes the A351. The mooted A350-1100 should therefore be the A35K.

AA has converted -800 series orders to -900. HA has converted -800 series to A339's. Have a look on the Airbus order sheet or Wiki for full details.

Otherwise correct, except A350-800 has still 16 orders left and it has not been officially cancelled (although it is de facto cancelled).

http://www.airbus.com/company/market...tx_maglisting_pi1%5BdocID%5D=67284
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 4):
Aeroflot

Yes I knew Aeroflot was one of the only ones still having it on order.

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 5):
The -1000 variant is NOT referred to as the A358, it is correctly the A35J (denoted by the 10th letter of the alphabet), and sometimes the A351.

Yes you're right. I knew it was A35J. I meant to write A35J, this was just a typo. My mistake. Thanks for correcting me.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):
Is Airbus still offering the A358 to its customers?

It should no longer have Authority to Offer as Airbus has decided not to build it.



Quoting Finn350 (Reply 6):
Otherwise correct, except A350-800 has still 16 orders left and it has not been officially cancelled (although it is de facto cancelled).

Both may be sticking with it now because it frees them from having to spend any money (since all progress payments stipulated in the contracts are now void). Once they convert to another model or family, those payments will be valid again.
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 5):
A350-800 aka A358 has been cancelled.

Emm..no it hasn't. At least officialy. Actually as Mr Bregier stated at the A330neo launch last summer and I quote: " We are commited to our customers." Although this quote is for 34 orders of the 358 at the time (now at 16), Bregier just believes that it is a trend and most of the customers will either go A330neo or A359. Whether he means this or not, whether he was just playing it down is another story. Just stating the facts.

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 5):
All A358 customers have selected either the A330neo or A359 instead.

Nope. SU and OZ are still on the books on having 8 A358s each on order.

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 5):
HA has converted -800 series to A339'
HA converted to the A338, not the A339. HA and GE are the only customers so far for the A338 by the way

[Edited 2015-06-15 15:09:26]
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:15 pm

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 9):

Yes thank you, you (and others) are absolutely right. I guess I'm just looking at the substance of the subtext behind the façade, the foundation beneath the diplomatic rhetoric of Mssr Brégier et al.

I suspect Stitch is right about SU and OZ in their rationale for not migrating their A358 orders to other models yet, though I do wonder also if it may be being used as leverage for more favourable terms as well, particularly with SU.

Regards
MH

[Edited 2015-06-15 15:19:39]
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 10):
diplomatic rhetoric of Mssr Brégier et al.

If you look at the whole A330neo launch Q & A with Bregier he also stated that for medium flying the A358 is less efficient than the neo and that makes sense since it is a shrink of the optimized A359 which makes it heavy. So compared to the competition and to its bigger sister it lost the race to existence. Personally I don't see Airbus building it now. Somehow in the future I can see it happening although in a very different way that it was being marketed up until a few years ago and with different specs, since design freeze was never achieved

Again on a personal note I have found that Bregier is doing a nice job as CEO being moderate, soft spoken, driven and of course diplomatic. Not to mention he achieved the entry into the Japanese market almost by himself something that even Leahy admitted to.
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:34 am

I suspect that Airbus will not officially cancel the A358 until all former orders have been either 1) Formally cancelled or 2) Converted to another model and all aircraft related to the initial A358 purchases are/have been delivered. This way there could be not even the slightest chance for any sort of backlash (whatever it may be) from any parties involved. Until then, the A358 is still "alive."
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:57 am

Asiana is more likely to convert these to A330s as the A350-8 were ordered to replace the 763s on regional routes. Whether Asiana goes for the A330neo or the A330regional remains to be seen. As Stich says, timing of order transfer may also be financially related.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:12 am

The A358 is as dead as Zed. I'd imagine that OZ might want to just get A359s, given the cost similarities.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:32 am

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 13):
A330s as the A350-8 were ordered to replace the 763s on regional routes. Whether Asiana goes for the A330neo or the A330regional remains to be seen.

So given Airbus saying...

Quote:
Saudi Arabian Airlines, the national carrier of Saudi Arabia will become the first airline in the world to operate the new Airbus A330-300 Regional.

...there are some runs on the board for the new model, and perhaps it may indeed entice OZ as suitable 763 regional replacement. Or will they just consolidate on the A350?
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:15 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 6):
Otherwise correct, except A350-800 has still 16 orders left and it has not been officially cancelled (although it is de facto cancelled).

  

It won't be built, but until those customers transfer their orders, the A358 is in 'legal limbo.'

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Both may be sticking with it now because it frees them from having to spend any money (since all progress payments stipulated in the contracts are now void). Once they convert to another model or family, those payments will be valid again.

I agree with your logic. Since at least one of those airlines (Aeroflot) needs to hold off spending cash to conserve funds, the A358 could be in limbo a *long* time.

I do suspect OZ is using delay as a negotiating tactic...

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
The A358 is as dead as Zed. I'd imagine that OZ might want to just get A359s, given the cost similarities.

I'm sure OZ is trying to get A359s for dirt cheap as compensation...

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 12):

I suspect that Airbus will not officially cancel the A358 until all former orders have been either 1) Formally cancelled or 2) Converted to another model and all aircraft related to the initial A358 purchases are/have been delivered. This way there could be not even the slightest chance for any sort of backlash (whatever it may be) from any parties involved. Until then, the A358 is still "alive."

Yep. That is what I suspect too. The A358 was an attempt at a lower cost 77L and the market said "meh!"


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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:20 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 7):
Quoting motorhussy (Reply 5):The -1000 variant is NOT referred to as the A358, it is correctly the A35J (denoted by the 10th letter of the alphabet), and sometimes the A351.
Yes you're right. I knew it was A35J. I meant to write A35J, this was just a typo. My mistake. Thanks for correcting me.

Are we really sure the official IATA code for the A350-1000 is 35J and not 35K? IIRC, Zeke said a couple of weeks ago the official code was 35K for for the A350-1000 and 78X for the 787-10. Happy to be proven wrong though  
Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 13):
Asiana is more likely to convert these to A330s as the A350-8 were ordered to replace the 763s on regional routes. Whether Asiana goes for the A330neo or the A330regional remains to be seen.

I suppose Airbus would rather see OZ converting their A358s to A359s though. But the A330neo would make far more sense, especially if it is more efficient than an A358. Not sure if that also applies to the A330regional.

Some time ago there was a rumor about one A358 customer who threatened to cancel their whole A350 order if the A358 was cancelled. Sounded typical QR Al-Baker style, but they did convert not long after that. I don't think it's SU, since they converted part of their A358 order to A359s (I guess if they can't have the remaining A358s they will order the 787-9 instead, but that is personal speculation). So with OZ holding on to their A358s I guess it must have been them threatening to cancel the whole A350 order.

Or it was HA, using it as leverage to convert to A330neo's - something Airbus doesn't really want encouraged.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:43 am

The A330neo take up seems to have been quite moderate overall. I think I last read 10 A338 and 135 A339's are on order, which will be interesting to see if things do pick up, especially for the former.

Seems that Airbus have a bit of a difficult situation on their hands to convert the final A358 orders across to other products.It may just be a bargaining ploy to get better deals on other aircraft by both OZ and SU, but it will be up to Airbus to find an acceptable solution.
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:43 am

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 17):
Are we really sure the official IATA code for the A350-1000 is 35J and not 35K? IIRC, Zeke said a couple of weeks ago the official code was 35K for for the A350-1000 and 78X for the 787-10. Happy to be proven wrong though

The ICAO codes are (ICAO DOC 8643 - Aircraft Type Designators)

BOEING 787-10 Dreamliner B78X Landplane Jet 2 H -
AIRBUS A-350-1000 XWB Prestige A35K Landplane Jet 2 H -
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:46 am

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 17):
I suppose Airbus would rather see OZ converting their A358s to A359s though.

I don't think so. With a backlog of 7 to 8 years production Airbus would rather have more A330(neo) orders.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 17):
So with OZ holding on to their A358s I guess it must have been them threatening to cancel the whole A350 order.

I doubt that, OZ is a loyal Airbus customer.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 17):
Or it was HA, using it as leverage to convert to A330neo's - something Airbus doesn't really want encouraged.

That seems more likely.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:50 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
AIRBUS A-350-1000 XWB Prestige A35K Landplane Jet 2 H -

Prestige? I must have missed something.. When did Airbus name it Prestige? (I kinda like it though  )
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:38 am

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 21):

I think that is applied to all of their ACJ models
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 17):
Or it was HA, using it as leverage to convert to A330neo's - something Airbus doesn't really want encouraged.

HA had only ordered the A358, and they were planning on using it to open long-range routes not currently feasible for them. Their CEO Mark Dunkerley has mentioned in the past that the A358 made HNL-LHR (and other European cities) a possibility, and they supposedly have performance guarantees from Airbus for the A338neo related to that.

Switching to the A359 wasn't a realistic option since HA had picked the A358 mainly for its range, and the A338neo was apparently Airbus' best offer.
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:51 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 22):
I think that is applied to all of their ACJ models

Yes you're right. It just looked like one name to me. Thanks
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 23):
Switching to the A359 wasn't a realistic option since HA had picked the A358 mainly for its range, and the A338neo was apparently Airbus' best offer.

The A359 has more range than the A338, and will probably perform better when pushed to its envelope. The issue with the A359 and HA is size- with HA's dense layout the A359 is going to fit a huge amount of passengers, more than they can probably realistically fill on many routes and still make good yields. They have 294 seats in their A330-200s, which is more seats than any other plane operated by a US carrier except for AA's 77Ws, UA's Hawaii 772s, and UA/DL's 744s.

[Edited 2015-06-16 08:02:03]
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:56 pm

Aeroflot cancelled their 22-frame 787-8 order today because the plane no longer fits their needs. I wonder if they will also now cancel the A350-800s for the same reason.
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
Aeroflot cancelled their 22-frame 787-8 order today because the plane no longer fits their needs.

Needs as in budgetary needs? Political needs? -ir
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting IslandRob (Reply 27):
Needs as in budgetary needs? Political needs?

I would not be surprised if it was a combination of both.
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 17):
(I guess if they can't have the remaining A358s they will order the 787-9 instead, but that is personal speculation).

Well, there goes my theory:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
Aeroflot cancelled their 22-frame 787-8 order today because the plane no longer fits their needs.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
I wonder if they will also now cancel the A350-800s for the same reason.

It would be illogical if that isn't happening. If they need an A358 size aircraft, they could easily have swapped some of their 788s to 789s instead of canceling the lot.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 29):
It would be illogical if that isn't happening. If they need an A358 size aircraft, they could easily have swapped some of their 788s to 789s instead of canceling the lot.

Well it could be that because the 787 was late Aeroflot could cancel outright and get deposits back while they could be contractually bound still to the A350 order. In an interview today at the airshow the CEO did say that he was taking delivery of the A350.

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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:44 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 30):
Well it could be that because the 787 was late Aeroflot could cancel outright and get deposits back while they could be contractually bound still to the A350 order. In an interview today at the airshow the CEO did say that he was taking delivery of the A350.

That sounds plausible. Regarding Asiana and Aeroflot case, most likely the airline cancelling the order would contractually result in a cancellation fee to be paid by the airline to Airbus. The airlines wait that Airbus officially cancels the orders and will get some compensation from Airbus due to non-delivery/cancellation (unless a new deal is negoatiated).
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 30):
Well it could be that because the 787 was late Aeroflot could cancel outright and get deposits back while they could be contractually bound still to the A350 order.


Aeroflot did mention they informed Boeing of their intent to cancel some time back, so it is possible they have been moving the 787 monies over to cover their 777-300ER deliveries and are now formally settling accounts.
 
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 17):
Are we really sure the official IATA code for the A350-1000 is 35J and not 35K? IIRC, Zeke said a couple of weeks ago the official code was 35K for for the A350-1000 and 78X for the 787-10. Happy to be proven wrong though

The ICAO codes are (ICAO DOC 8643 - Aircraft Type Designators)

BOEING 787-10 Dreamliner B78X Landplane Jet 2 H -
AIRBUS A-350-1000 XWB Prestige A35K Landplane Jet 2 H -

Thanks. Don't understand the logic for the largest A350 but good to know.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 33):
Thanks. Don't understand the logic for the largest A350 but good to know.

k in the metric world is 1000.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 33):
Thanks. Don't understand the logic for the largest A350 but good to know.

k in the metric world is 1000.


As per kilo, so it is. Thanks Zeke.
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RE: What's Going On With The A350-800?

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:46 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
The A358 was an attempt at a lower cost 77L

Not really. The original plan was to optimize the A350-800 airframe for the 250 seat market. Then back in 2009 Airbus decided to leave the A358 as a straight shrink without optimizations. Development work and sale campaigns were also put on hold.

The A350-800 basically died six years ago.
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