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jetblastdubai
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United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:10 pm

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united...ngthens-york-jersey-160000098.html

"With its launch of p.s. services at Newark Liberty, United will cease operations at Kennedy International Airport on Oct. 25. United has entered into two separate transactions: Delta Air Lines plans to acquire United's JFK slots, and United plans to acquire slots from Delta in Newark. Each transaction is subject to regulatory approval"

P.S. service will be moved to EWR.
 
efcar98
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:13 pm

Just saw on CNBC...Can't believe they haven't profited for seven years and still stuck with it this long. Doesn't add up.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:15 pm

WOW!!


Not much else to say beyond that.

And it is a lead news story on CNBC

[Edited 2015-06-16 09:17:23]
 
jmdc861
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Hard to imagine! But those are the times in which we live!

JMDC861
 
jetblue1965
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:19 pm

this is totally unbelievable. completely dispelling the previous notion that the premium traffic MUST go to JFK.

on the plus side ... this really boosts their EWR hub, as SFO/LAX pax heading for Europe can have a flat bed experience the whole way, and making UA's offering finally competitive with what DL and AA has managed for years
 
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Polot
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting EFCar98 (Reply 1):
Can't believe they haven't profited for seven years and still stuck with it this long. Doesn't add up.

Where do they say that?

Edit: Nevermind I saw that on CNBC. But it is difficult to determine whether they meant "profit" as in make money or "profit" as in reap advantages/rewards over their competitors.

[Edited 2015-06-16 09:23:45]
 
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adamblang
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:20 pm

Also buried in the press release:

Quote:
The company also announced today that it is making a multi-million dollar investment to renovate United's Terminal C lobby and to bring its new airport lounge design concept to all United Club locations at Newark Liberty. United already has invested more than $2 billion to build a world-class gateway at Newark Liberty where, with its airport partners, the airline is offering chef-driven restaurants, redesigned lounge-like gate areas and improved United Club locations.
 
flyby519
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:21 pm

Very surprising to say the least! I wonder if DL will start a premium-only transcon service?
 
commavia
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:21 pm

Yep - as predicted months ago, figured it was just a matter of time. It will be very interesting to see how this shakes up the dynamics at JFK in general, and on the JFK transcons in particular. All else being equal, I'd say this should - at least theoretically - help AA with its premium-oriented JFK transcons, but obviously the slots will help Delta in general. It will be interesting to see if regulators have anything to say about Delta further increasing its slot holding at JFK.
 
airliner371
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:23 pm

Well this also goes along with the rumors that WN worked with an airline to acquire slots at JFK.
 
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adamblang
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:23 pm

Here's where some of the international-configured 757-200s being displaces by 767-300s and 787s are going:

Quote:
In launching p.s. service at Newark Liberty, United will move several Boeing 757-200 aircraft currently allocated to trans-Atlantic markets to p.s. flights. As it does so, the airline will increase the number of widebody Boeing 767 aircraft on trans-Atlantic flights, offering larger United BusinessFirst cabins and, on many flights, United Global First service.
 
ORD Boy 2
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:23 pm

Does Star follow UA and retrench further at EWR??
Also can EWR be modified (I know no runways yet) to hold the A380?
 
United1
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:24 pm

Having used P.S. many times I am a bit gobsmacked by this but am not surprised it was not profitable....I could regularly find $300-$350 round trip fares last year.

A few good things from todays announcement...

Renovating all of the clubs at EWR to the new UA Club standard.
Renovating the lobby at EWR.
Transitioning some of the international 752s to P.S. standards and back-filling with 763s across the pond.

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
but obviously the slots will help Delta in general.

...and the additional slots at EWR will help out UA as well.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
jetblue1965
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:25 pm

some verbiage from FT :

"When we have completed this schedule adjustment, all of our flights from EWR to LAX and SFO will feature flat-bed seats."

That means up to 15x daily LAX-EWR and up to 17x daily SFO-EWR, 100% flat bed. This frequency trumps every single competitor.

This is a major upgrade for LAX-NYC. Sure it's EWR not JFK, but now the customers can pick 15x daily flat bed instead of just 6x to JFK.
 
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STT757
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Thread starter):
Delta Air Lines plans to acquire United's JFK slots, and United plans to acquire slots from Delta in Newark

I'm wondering what if the former UA IAD-JFK slots will be included, if not it should be enough slots to allow for about 13 daily flights. I wonder what DL will cut? Definitely CVG, but that's only three daily flights. They need about ten more.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
commavia
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 13):
This frequency trumps every single competitor.

Indeed, although not by much on NYC-LAX, where AA is at 13x on peak days out of JFK.

Either way, United will, indeed, remain - as it has long been - the overall frequency leader NYC-LAX/SFO. Nonetheless, if I'm understanding correctly, this is going to be a substantial net reduction in seats in these markets. It will be interesting to see if/how competitors react (i.e., increased frequency, larger aircraft, etc.).
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
It will be interesting to see if regulators have anything to say about Delta further increasing its slot holding at JFK.

For Q3 DL only has 32% departure share for JFK (27% for NYC), hardly a stranglehold. One could also argue that it's "NYC neutral" since it's just moving across town.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
It will be interesting to see if regulators have anything to say about Delta further increasing its slot holding at JFK.

With the 4 IAD slots, UA probably had 25 or so slots.

Given past rumors of WN, I wouldn't be surprised if they are in on this deal with DL.

Funny how B6 once again missed the boat on UA divesting slots (first at EWR and now at the Hub JFK)

I also wonder what regulators will say about DL handing more EWR slots to UA
 
jetblue1965
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):


Either way, United will, indeed, remain - as it has long been - the overall frequency leader NYC-LAX/SFO. Nonetheless, if I'm understanding correctly, this is going to be a substantial net reduction in seats in these markets. It will be interesting to see if/how competitors react (i.e., increased frequency, larger aircraft, etc.).

It's a reduction in total seats but a major increase in flat beds. Per the press release, it's a 44% YoY increase in flat beds. That's rather substantial.

It's scary to think that UA will be flying up to 32x daily on premium transcons.
 
jbs2886
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:32 pm

Does Delta really need more slots at JFK?
 
codc10
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:36 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 9):
Well this also goes along with the rumors that WN worked with an airline to acquire slots at JFK.

UAL JFK slots are going to Delta, and some DL EWR slots to United
 
flyby519
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting jbs2886 (Reply 19):



Does Delta really need more slots at JFK?


No, but they really don't want any competitors to have them. So why not make a deal (as long as DOT/DOJ says OK)?
 
jetblue1965
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:38 pm

Quoting codc10 (Reply 20):
UAL JFK slots are going to Delta, and some DL EWR slots to United

Love the legalized collusion

So which DL EWR flights are being trimmed as a result ?
 
UA444
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:39 pm

Complete and utterly ridiculous and yet another bone head move from Smisek and his CO cronies. And more lies. UA before they ruined it was one of the most profitable on NY-CA and ps was a huge success. Unless you live in NJ, which the whole point of ps is NYC, this is horrible and complete defeats any last reason one would have to pick UA on this route. There's a reason why Newark's IATA code looks loke sewer, the place is a dump and not anywhere as good as JFK. Yet another "we can't compete so let's run" from the boneheads. .

[Edited 2015-06-16 09:44:20]

[Edited 2015-06-16 09:47:22]
 
mozart
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:39 pm

Are the new EWR-California schedules loaded in the GDS already?
 
jetblue1965
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 17):
Funny how B6 once again missed the boat on UA divesting slots (first at EWR and now at the Hub JFK)

I feel that it was intentional. None of the legacies want extensive B6 presence with their low fares.

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 16):

For Q3 DL only has 32% departure share for JFK (27% for NYC), hardly a stranglehold. One could also argue that it's "NYC neutral" since it's just moving across town.

It's both good and bad. On one hand, UA will become the only US3 airline that doesn't serve all 3 NYC airports. The positive side is the crazy flat bed frequency (if they can convince the travelers to use EWR)
 
jetwet1
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 4):
this really boosts their EWR hub, as SFO/LAX pax heading for Europe can have a flat bed experience the whole way, and making UA's offering finally competitive with what DL and AA has managed for years

Or you could just take a direct flight on one of many carriers, many of which already have flat beds up front and not have to deal with the traffic jam that is EWR during the evening push.
 
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thekorean
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:43 pm

I was gonna say UA now the only major US carrier to not fly to NYC but I remembered LGABig grin

Its not really a big deal since again, they do fly out of LGA.

[Edited 2015-06-16 09:44:12]
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 23):
UA before they ruined it was one of the most profitable on NY-CA and ps was a huge success.

Source?

Quoting UA444 (Reply 23):
Unless you live in NJ, which the whole point of ps is NYC, this is horrible and complete defeats any last reason one would have to pick UA on this route.

Just one example, but clearly EWR is not just "for people in NJ"

JP Morgan Headquarters is:

33min Drive to EWR
34min drive to JFK

53 min to EWR via Public Transit
1hr 2 min to JFK via Public Transit

*Per google maps right now
 
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United787
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:46 pm

So the P.S. service will still be all 757 service supplemented with the 757s previously announced to be removed from trans-atlantic service?
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:47 pm

Look at the percentage of Manhattan travelers at EWR. Not that high.

Despite the google maps snap shot
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:47 pm

It will be interesting to see if the high-yield traffic moves from JFK to EWR, or if DL/AA/B6/VX end up picking up some of the slack.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 17):
Funny how B6 once again missed the boat on UA divesting slots (first at EWR and now at the Hub JFK)

I don't think B6 "missed the boat" given that they gladly relinquished JFK slots in the past to AA. Not to mention that JFK growth is not the priority (FLL and BOS are priority).

I also think B6 is pleased that its more rational and familiar competitor picked up the slots, instead of VX or - as rumored - WN.
 
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STT757
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 29):
So the P.S. service will still be all 757 service supplemented with the 757s previously announced to be removed from trans-atlantic service?

Yup, they're going to move 12 sCO 757s from International service to P.S. service to join the 15 sUA P.S. 757s already operating the service. The sCO 752s and the sUA P.S. 752s are identical except the P.S. birds have 28 seats up front and the sCO 752s have 16.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 30):
Look at the percentage of Manhattan travelers at EWR. Not that high.

Care to provide the figures?
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:52 pm

Interesting move by United. I don't know if I would've straight jumped but perhaps started EWR ps service first to see how the market reacts.... Then if successful, move JFK over.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 7):

Very surprising to say the least! I wonder if DL will start a premium-only transcon service?


This certainly leaves the door open for that possibility. They were just in the news for their new "paparazzi proof" DeltaOne experience at LAX--that sounds like they're moving in the premium only direction. Exciting to see what comes of it.

I think B6 missed the boat here. JFK slots don't show up often!
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
tsnamm
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:53 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 25):
On one hand, UA will become the only US3 airline that doesn't serve all 3 NYC airports




It makes sense if you think of it from an sCO perspective, which historically meant NYC=EWR...CO never had more than a token presence at JFK ever; and didn't even fly there at the time of the merger...it's interesting that they say they competed successfully in NYC from their EWR hub and LGA historically, which was how CO did it...sUA always had major flight activity at JFK. So this decision is mostly driven by the sCO corporate mentality.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 26):

Or you could just take a direct flight on one of many carriers, many of which already have flat beds up front and not have to deal with the traffic jam that is EWR during the evening push.

Have you seen the excellent traffic flow on Long Island Expressway during rush hour ? It's like downtown Bangkok.

Quoting United787 (Reply 29):
So the P.S. service will still be all 757 service supplemented with the 757s previously announced to be removed from trans-atlantic service?

For now it looks like a miss of 16J with 28J planes. I don't think they've mentioned what the long term plan is. Personally I feel that 28J x 17 flights would be a bit too much.

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 31):

I also think B6 is pleased that its more rational and familiar competitor picked up the slots, instead of VX or - as rumored - WN.

You mean their 5x daily DAL-AUS isn't rational ? =p
 
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STT757
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:56 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 30):
Look at the percentage of Manhattan travelers at EWR. Not that high.

How many people work in Manhattan but live in New Jersey, half a million? Those folks screw up those surveys done by the Port Authority as they list their residences as New Jersey, but they're traveling from their offices in Manhattan.

There's a report by the Lower Manhattan development Corp, LMDC, documenting the Lower Manhattan white collar workforce. The report stated 60% of the Lower Manhattan financial industry white collar workforce lives in New Jersey. Wall Street is physically closer to EWR than even LGA.

[Edited 2015-06-16 09:59:51]
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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enilria
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 22):
o which DL EWR flights are being trimmed as a result ?

I'm assuming this isn't one for one. EWR slots are worth more than JFK slots. The only JFK slots worth anything are in the afternoon. EWR are VERY hard to come by.

Here's what DL has:
AMS 1X
ATL 11X
CDG 1X
CVG 2X
DTW 7X
LHR 1X
MSP 5X
SLC 1X

29 RTs total. UA has about 13 RTs at EWR. I can't see DL giving up 13RTs at EWR. If they did it would mean ending stuff like CDG/AMS/LHR which UA would love, but I would doubt is possible.

I think this is what happens:
DL @ EWR Afterward:
AMS 1X
ATL 8X
CDG 1X
CVG 0X
DTW 6X
LHR 1X
MSP 4X
SLC 0X

21 RTs? It's also possible DL has EWR slots that are leased out already to UA or somebody else that will transfer.
 
ikramerica
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:00 pm

This fixes a major issue with UA (former CO) premium flow. They funnel a lot of traffic through EWR connecting LAX/SFO to the EU, but when there is space at all, premium customers must fly in 738s with poor J product. Now there are proper premium connections in EWR with lie-flat all the way.

Quoting adamblang (Reply 10):
Here's where some of the international-configured 757-200s being displaces by 767-300s and 787s are going:

That's a win-win for all involved. More wide bodies for customers across the atlantic. No more 738s transcon to premium destinations.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 22):
Love the legalized collusion

That's what slot controls do...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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STT757
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 35):
sUA always had major flight activity at JFK.

UA always had more flights from EWR than JFK, you couldn't even fly to Denver or Chicago from JFK.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
INFINITI329
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:02 pm

Im not sure if the DOJ will approve UA gaining even more market share at an airport they clearly dominate hand over fist.
 
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enilria
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 41):
Im not sure if the DOJ will approve UA gaining even more market share at an airport they clearly dominate hand over fist.

I hope you are right.

Is it possible that UA thinks the perimeter at LGA will be removed and they are selling now while their slots are worth something? If the perimeter falls I'd think LGA slots go up massively in value and JFK slots decline. If that were likely to happen it would also behoove UA to make a move like this on LAX/SFO.
 
seatback
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:06 pm

Interesting how UA and DL work together to do this, but UA's screwing Delta on Love Field. I'm know they're separate, but
funny nonetheless.

Also, disappointed AA doesn't have a hand in this. Although Philly is great, I'm sure 25 slots from UA would have been nice.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 37):

Depending on the time of day, I have found EWR to be a lot more convenient to fly out of than JFK. Don't understand all the vitriol against EWR. But, I am not from New York.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 23):
Complete and utterly ridiculous and yet another bone head move from Smisek and his CO cronies. And more lies. UA before they ruined it was one of the most profitable on NY-CA and ps was a huge success.

Now how did I know exactly what you would say... UA reduced JFK by almost two thirds in the 2000s to two transcons and a wheelbarrow to IAD, but clearly they had the NYC corporate market on lock 
Quoting jbs2886 (Reply 19):
Does Delta really need more slots at JFK?

A valid question...at least for 3 months out of the year they do 

[Edited 2015-06-16 10:16:27]
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 33):

Care to provide the figures?
http://www.panynj.gov/airports/general-information.html

All the information on all PA airports and where people start and end their trips is in the pdf on page 2.
 
tsnamm
Posts: 563
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 40):
UA always had more flights from EWR than JFK, you couldn't even fly to Denver or Chicago from JFK.

And the bulk of the transcons and International business was at JFK for sUA...LHR,GRU,EZE,NRT,CCS,HKG....the point is that for CO it was always an either or proposition; EWR or JFK, and they had all their marbles at EWR only, and that is what UA is doing now courtesy of the CO philosophy in senior management at UA.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 24):
Are the new EWR-California schedules loaded in the GDS already?

Not that I can see yet. I have 3 JFK-LAX booked after the switchover date, so I'll have to figure how to re-route.
 
apodino
Posts: 3995
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RE: United Leaving JFK - Oct 2015 - P.S. To EWR

Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:18 pm

I was actually reading something about how AA now rakes in the highest fare on NYC-LAX and I find it interesting that Doug Parker has said how great the A321Ts are doing, and yet UA is losing money, which tells me they had a revenue problem here. With 4 other airlines on both routes out of JFK, given the lack of presence by UA in other markets out of JFK, maintaining a city for a niche service doesn't make a lot of sense. That being said, there is a risk here that most of the premium transcon traffic prefers JFK as it's not just the NYc based traffic, but also the traffic from the other end op you have to consider. Also, operationally, JFK seems to be the least prone to irops of the three NYC airports

I did find it funny that UA shares dropped 2 percent on the news. Wall Street isn't taking this well.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos