Delta Returns HND Slot To DOT

GRUIAD · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:06 am

After defending its right to serve Seattle – Haneda and winning a the review by the DOT, in a bizarre twist Delta has decided to return the slots to the DOT for reallocation on October 1, 2015. I assume this means that American airlines automatically gains the authority on October 1 as the backup.

LAXintl · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:11 am

Yes the Delta filing states:

We have determined that it is not commercially feasible to operate the slots allocated to Delta
for Seattle-Haneda service on a consistent daily basis year-round because: (i) demand for
Seattle-Haneda service is highly variable, peaking in the summer and declining in the winter;
and (ii) Delta lacks a Japan airline partner to provide connectivity beyond Haneda to points in
Japan and other countries in Asia.

and

While Delta would prefer to continue to develop SeattleHaneda
service in competition with the American/JAL and United/ANA alliances at Haneda,
Delta will follow DOT's guidance in Order 2015-6-14 and return the slots to DOT.

DL says in its filing the last SEA-HND service will be 9/30 returning 10/1

OST-2010-0018

phillyramp270 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:12 am

Thank you... Come again

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:13 am

is HA and UA allowed to file for that slot, or is automatically given to AA ?

MAH4546 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:13 am

Yes, American automatically gets the slot, as Delta alludes to in its forfeiture by saying "every U.S. carrier serving Japan will now have one U.S.-Haneda slot."

chrisp390 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:14 am

Maybe talks fell apart with Skymark on working together and with the few slots they have at HND they figured it just made more sense to run everything out of NRT

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):

Congrats to AA then. Now let's sit back and watch the 3 way battle on LAX-HND between NH DL and AA.

LAXintl · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:16 am

Lets see how DL does now with its remaining LAX-HND service going head to head with marketing power of new AA/JL combo flight.

chrisnh · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:18 am

Sounds like DL is whining that a route has seasonal volatility. That's like a stupid child whining that they want all meat and no vegetables for dinner.

phillyramp270 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:22 am

So who's gonna have the superior product on the route... Honestly as much as I want my company's class leading product on the HND route... I think the 77W is too much plane... premium product wise... Refurb 772???, I think it's retardation to put the old crusty 763 on that route

alfa164 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 8):
Sounds like DL is whining that a route has seasonal volatility

What you call "whining" would be seen by most neutral observers as "honesty". But don't let such distinctions get in the way of your... whining...

MSPNWA · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:31 am

Finally this saga will end. Now it will be AA's problem.

"Highly variable" demand is simply code for "little" demand. SEA-HND had no chance to succeed with the slot times and lack of a partner on the Japan end.

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):

Love the fireworks ... DL launching LAX-PVG as retaliation of AA trying to take their HND slot and AA launches LAX-SYD to counter-retaliate

Passengers out of LAX must be loving the bloody capacity war.

LAX772LR · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:34 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 10):
What you call "whining" would be seen by most neutral observers as "honesty". But don't let such distinctions get in the way of your... whining...

Quoting phillyramp270 (Reply 9):
I think it's retardation to put the old crusty 763 on that route

I think it's "retardation" to get caught up on fleet type, particularly when the 763ER:

has DL's optimum business product,
has a completely refurbished interior,
has arguably the most comfortable possible seat config for Y pax, and
............*drum roll*............. is something that probably 99% of pax can't tell the difference between any other medium-sized widebody.

BoeingGuy · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:37 am

So two of DL's SEA international routes have failed. There is no sign at all that they are eating AS's lunch. I wonder what the future will be for DL's international and domestic expansion at SEA.

I would have expected that DL would have announced SEA-TPE by now.

n7371f · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:37 am

The slot times are so awful. Delta knew this. Not sure why they spent so much time fighting. But that's Richard...and Ben Hurst.

n7371f · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:40 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):

So two of DL's SEA international routes have failed. There is no sign at all that they are eating AS's lunch. I wonder what the future will be for DL's international and domestic expansion at SEA.

What does returning Haneda have to do with Alaska?

Actually I was going to post this in a different thread but since you're clearly such an Alaska-homer, I might as well tell you that drawings are complete for the second SkyClub to be located between A and B. Larger than the SkyClub on the South Satellite. Requires a lot of work as it's additional structure and flooring not currently available. Delta is committed to Seattle.

LAX772LR · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:42 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 12):
Passengers out of LAX must be loving the bloody capacity war.

Still not quite like the DL/AS war to SEA/SFO, with occasional $189 paid-F fares... but still nice.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 15):
The slot times are so awful. Delta knew this. Not sure why they spent so much time fighting.

The same thing applies to AA, who also has failed previously at HND.
I don't know why this seems to be a DL-specific concept in so many people's minds....

commavia · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:46 am

After everything that's happened with these slots - wow.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
We have determined that it is not commercially feasible to operate the slots allocated to Delta
for Seattle-Haneda service on a consistent daily basis year-round

And there we have it - thus at least somewhat validating the arguments AA and Hawaiian made ("Seatless in Seattle").

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Yes, American automatically gets the slot, as Delta alludes to in its forfeiture by saying "every U.S. carrier serving Japan will now have one U.S.-Haneda slot."

Will be interesting to see how LAX-HND does compared to the existing LAX-NRT flight (that it will almost certainly be replacing).

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Lets see how DL does now with its remaining LAX-HND service going head to head with marketing power of new AA/JL combo flight.

Yep - again, will be interesting to watch. So now all three of the Mainland U.S.-Japan airlines/JVs will have a presence on LAX-HND.

Quoting phillyramp270 (Reply 9):
So who's gonna have the superior product on the route... Honestly as much as I want my company's class leading product on the HND route... I think the 77W is too much plane... premium product wise... Refurb 772?

AA will likely put the 3-class 777 on this route as originally advertised, although this is yet another example of where that will almost certainly be an economically inappropriate configuration, and the eventual reconfigured 2-class 777s will be the eventual - better - solution.

phillyramp270 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:53 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 13):

Let's be real here, In the case of the 763... DL has the superior product, IFE, powerports at every seat, Better interior, etc... Compared to AA's Ricky dink 763's... It's an abomination to the entire fleet!!!! That's just my opinion

KirkSeattle · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 17):
Quoting n7371f (Reply 15):
The slot times are so awful. Delta knew this. Not sure why they spent so much time fighting.

The same thing applies to AA, who also has failed previously at HND.
I don't know why this seems to be a DL-specific concept in so many people's minds....

If the slot times are the same for AA, how are they going to make it work? With a better product? Just curious as to what the forum thinks.

Quoting commavia (Reply 18):
AA will likely put the 3-class 777 on this route as originally advertised, although this is yet another example of where that will almost certainly be an economically inappropriate configuration, and the eventual reconfigured 2-class 777s will be the eventual - better - solution.

Do you think the better product but same slot times will still make the route successful? Just curious of your opinion.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):
So two of DL's SEA international routes have failed. There is no sign at all that they are eating AS's lunch. I wonder what the future will be for DL's international and domestic expansion at SEA.

Can you remind us what routes AS flies to Asia? Oh yeah. None. So this isn't a related issue. Nice try though.

Cheers,
KirkSeattle

peanuts · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:02 am

The irony!
Consumer wins! If you can find your way to LAX first....

TWA772LR · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:03 am

This slot should've been given to AS to operate out of ANC with.

I know AA is trying to make a Pacific gateway out of LAX, but the competition is immense, especially to Japan. Would they bee better off flying DFW-HND instead?

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:06 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):

On top of that, DL failed TWICE at HND... First DTW now SEA.

If DL originally changed SEA-HND in winter to 5x weekly, it would lower the bleeding while not necessarily catching sufficient attention to trigger the objections.

After these 2 flops, the arguments that DL can make when daytime HND slots arrive is getting really weak.

Byrdluvs747 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:07 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):
So two of DL's SEA international routes have failed.

What was the other route?

commavia · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:08 am

Quoting KirkSeattle (Reply 20):
If the slot times are the same for AA, how are they going to make it work? With a better product?

To me, the big difference is the size of the market. AA's application had the specifics - LAX is far and away the largest O&D market between the U.S. mainland and Tokyo; far larger than SEA. That will benefit AA, as will the partnership and marketing support from JAL on the Japan end.

Quoting KirkSeattle (Reply 20):
Do you think the better product but same slot times will still make the route successful? Just curious of your opinion.

"Success" is relative. "Success" compared to what? Do I think AA's LAX-HND will be more successful than Delta's SEA-HND? Personally, yes, I do, because of the market size and the Japan partner support. The point, however, that I was making was more than that regardless of the relative "success" of AA in this market in general, a 2-class 777 will be more successful than a 3-class aircraft.

enilria · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting GRUIAD (Thread starter):
After defending its right to serve Seattle – Haneda and winning a the review by the DOT, in a bizarre twist Delta has decided to return the slots to the DOT for reallocation on October 1, 2015. I assume this means that American airlines automatically gains the authority on October 1 as the backup.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Thank you... Come again

ROTFL. Typical. There was no way with Delta's aggressive capacity management they were going to operate that route every single day. There are few flights in their whole network that operate that consistently.

GSPSPOT · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:09 am

It would be cool if AS and AA strengthened their relationship in order to funnel more pax to this and hopefully more SEA-Asia flights on AA.

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:10 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 24):

I believe it's SEA-KIX

LAX772LR · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:11 am

Personally, I'm still at a loss as to why the DOT considers this arrangement to be "Open Skies."

For one thing, in both the '90s and the '00s, US/UK Open Skies fell apart, in part due to the inability for entrants to gain commercially-viable slot timings; and incumbent carriers' refusal to cede hundreds of weekly slots to create such.

For another thing, carriers who are currently in possession of HND slots during such viable times, cannot use them for US mainland flights.

How the heck is that Open Skies???
DOT should never have agreed to this, and should rescind the Open Skies and ATI grants until Japan can get this crap sorted out.

HAL · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:12 am

You would have to have been blind to not see this coming. Just because Delta won the battle with the DOT on keeping SEA-HND didn't change the underlying economics of the route. It seems to have been more a matter of ego rather than sound business planning.

I understand the DOT's rationale for selecting the business traveler over O&D vacationers, but personally I think it is wrong. The overall economic impact in the United States would have been biggest if HA had won the slot. Now we sit back and wait for AA/DL to start complaining about the low yields and lousy slot times on the flights from LAX.

Eventually HA will get the slot. It's just too bad it will take so long for it to happen.

HAL

KirkSeattle · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:12 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):
Quoting KirkSeattle (Reply 20):
If the slot times are the same for AA, how are they going to make it work? With a better product?

To me, the big difference is the size of the market.

Yeah, I think so to. Good point.

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):
Quoting KirkSeattle (Reply 20):
Do you think the better product but same slot times will still make the route successful? Just curious of your opinion.

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):
The point, however, that I was making was more than that regardless of the relative "success" of AA in this market in general, a 2-class 777 will be more successful than a 3-class aircraft.

Gotcha, thanks. It's still more plane than DL was running but a different market.

Shall be interesting.

Cheers and Thanks,

KirkSeattle

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 30):

I've asked this before and I'll ask again - if KOA-TYO is such a honey pot, why isn't HA launching KOA-NRT first ? Or are you suggesting the route can only succeed if it's done from HND ?

KirkSeattle · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 27):
It would be cool if AS and AA strengthened their relationship in order to funnel more pax to this and hopefully more SEA-Asia flights on AA.

What? Even if they did, AA doesn't have flights to Asia from SEA on their own metal. They did, a long time ago, but just to hubs now, mostly.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:22 am

If only there was as much interest and demand for the HND flights as the amount of interest these threads command on a.net.

Prestige routes are so 1980's thinking.

commavia · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting KirkSeattle (Reply 33):
Even if they did, AA doesn't have flights to Asia from SEA on their own metal. They did, a long time ago, but just to hubs now, mostly.

Again - personally, I don't think it's totally unthinkable that JAL could launch NRT-SEA with a 787. SEA is now one of the, if not the, largest and most strategically important U.S.-Japan city pairs the AA/JAL JV doesn't serve, and I think the market could possibly support three daily flights with one from each of the alliances/JVs. It might also give Alaska access to yet another potential partner for access and feed into Asia to hedge Delta, and also potentially presage a deeper Alaska-AA partnership.

MSPNWA · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:26 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 32):
I've asked this before and I'll ask again - if KOA-TYO is such a honey pot, why isn't HA launching KOA-NRT first ? Or are you suggesting the route can only succeed if it's done from HND ?

I'll take a stab at it. I think it's two things. First is that HND would be the preferred airport, and HA already operates there, so the NRT demand may not be projected to be sufficient. Second is that HA doesn't serve NRT. It would more costly to setup a new station.

LAX772LR · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 30):
The overall economic impact in the United States would have been biggest if HA had won the slot.

How? How does someone in Florida, or New York, or Chicago, or Texas, etc (about half the nation's population right there) benefit from HA having won the slot?

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 32):
if KOA-TYO is such a honey pot, why isn't HA launching KOA-NRT first ?

...exactly. They could be in NRT today if they wanted. Probably a tough sell (and ultimately a failed one) to convince the DOT that only HND can effectively serve that market.

ripcordd · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:28 am

LAX-HND will be a 787 route

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:29 am

Curious to see if ANA would announce some extra frequencies on NRT-SEA to backfill the lost capacity. If they do and do it quickly, the window of opportunity for JAL to jump in would be slim.

HAL · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:37 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 32):
I've asked this before and I'll ask again - if KOA-TYO is such a honey pot, why isn't HA launching KOA-NRT first ? Or are you suggesting the route can only succeed if it's done from HND ?

Because the cost involved with setting up a new station would outweigh the benefits. When HND was originally awarded to HA, the expectation was that they would eventually get another route there. In fact, the first proposal to the DOT from HA included two daily HNL-HND flights. It's a matter of cost savings from multiple flights to one destination. Yes, HA would probably make some money going HNL-NRT. But with service already to HND it makes sense to wait for another slot to open up.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 37):
Quoting HAL (Reply 30):The overall economic impact in the United States would have been biggest if HA had won the slot.
How? How does someone in Florida, or New York, or Chicago, or Texas, etc (about half the nation's population right there) benefit from HA having won the slot?

It's not about having someone from Florida benefiting from a particular route. It's about the total, overall economic benefit of a route. How does SEA-HND benefit the McDonalds worker in Wheeling West Virginia? It doesn't, of course. It benefits the business traveler who wants or needs to transit through SEA. The same goes for KOA-HND. That doesn't benefit the burger flipper either, but since that route would bring in much more money into the US economy (foreign travelers coming into the US to spend their vacation money) than a business traveler going to Japan would, the overall economic impact is bigger.

HAL

BoeingGuy · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting KirkSeattle (Reply 20):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):
So two of DL's SEA international routes have failed. There is no sign at all that they are eating AS's lunch. I wonder what the future will be for DL's international and domestic expansion at SEA.

Can you remind us what routes AS flies to Asia? Oh yeah. None. So this isn't a related issue. Nice try though.

You apparently didn't get that I was referring to DL's entire invasion at SEA. Perhaps you aren't aware that they started many new domestic routes, some of which don't relate at all to feed to Asia. Then in the next sentence I clearly referred to both domestic and international route.

You apparently didn't get my entire comment so just answered back with something meaningless.

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:48 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 37):

I recall HA failed at least twice on the KOA-HND arguments, first during the exodus of DTW and second during SEA going summer seasonal.

Quoting HAL (Reply 40):

Is there actual proof that the tourist dollars to the big island will outweigh every lower48 option ? Remember, the big island is not HNL.

Maybe they should just be creative and propose a HND-OGG-KOA-HND triangle.

northwestEWR · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:53 am

It will be interesting to see what comes of this at Delta. I think they were stupid to start a pissing contest with the DOT/DOJ about this in the first place, they should've let it go quietly and saved some political capital for the next battle.

I don't think this is a reflection on SEA as much as it is on HND. SEA has been doing well internationally but the HND slots murdered the flight before it ever started. I think AA will lose money on LAX-HND too until the timings are changed.

alfa164 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 41):
You apparently didn't get that I was referring to DL's entire invasion at SEA

"Invasion"??? Did the City Father issue an alarm to resist the invaders? Did the Chamber of Commerce and the Airport Board energize the local militia to defend against the despotic Southern hoards? Did the good citizens of Seattle actually man the barricades to try to repel them?

Perhaps you are referring to their decision to use Seattle as their Asian gateway. I don't recall any "invasion"... but I do see a lot of laughable hyperbole on the part of partisan posters on A.net...

KirkSeattle · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 41):
You apparently didn't get that I was referring to DL's entire invasion at SEA. Perhaps you aren't aware that they started many new domestic routes, some of which don't relate at all to feed to Asia. Then in the next sentence I clearly referred to both domestic and international route.

You apparently didn't get my entire comment so just answered back with something meaningless.

I know full well what your intentions were of the post. Also, I am fully aware of what AS and DL do in Seattle because I live here. And if your cryptic messages were written well, you wouldn't receive such commentary.

xjramper · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:05 am

People are stating that this is a failure on DL's part. Rather, DL saw that their slot timing wouldn't work, considering during the slow, winter months DL didn't even bother running the route unless it was a holiday week. Until the slot times change for AA, and I truly hope they are successful at it, AA will have a rough time making that route profitable. DL saw that the flight wouldn't be profitable running it every day and did the smart thing and relinquished the slot since the DOT gave them an ultimatum. This is business 101 folks. Nothing to do with "failing" as some people want to see.

Oh and I bet SEA-KIX comes back, very very soon. Perchance after 10/1?

northwestEWR · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:09 am

Quoting xjramper (Reply 46):
People are stating that this is a failure on DL's part. Rather, DL saw that their slot timing wouldn't work, considering during the slow, winter months DL didn't even bother running the route unless it was a holiday week. Until the slot times change for AA, and I truly hope they are successful at it, AA will have a rough time making that route profitable. DL saw that the flight wouldn't be profitable running it every day and did the smart thing and relinquished the slot since the DOT gave them an ultimatum. This is business 101 folks. Nothing to do with "failing" as some people want to see.

DL had SEA-HND to themselves. LAX-HND is going to be a pissing contest with two other airlines for AA. I have doubts they'll be able to make it work either. Especially with the terrible timing of the slots.

Quoting xjramper (Reply 46):
Oh and I bet SEA-KIX comes back, very very soon

It'll be back. Just not that soon. The yen needs to strengthen and SEA needs more domestic feed first.

KirkSeattle · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:09 am

Quoting xjramper (Reply 46):
Until the slot times change for AA, and I truly hope they are successful at it, AA will have a rough time making that route profitable.

How doe the DOT transfer work? Same slots? And how can they petition to change them? I'm sure DL tried but didn't get them.

Cheers,
KirkSeattle

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:18 am

Quoting xjramper (Reply 46):

Really ... Business 101 ... Because it was DL who insisted they needed to keep the slots when AA and HA filed objections just barely a few months back. But no, their ego made them argue for keeping them, then relinquishing just a few months later, wasting everyone's time while causing more losses for themselves

If it were truly business 101, DL should have relinquished way back last year when they wanted to make the route seasonal.

SEA-KIX ? That's a pipe dream. SFO and LAX are far larger markets and both barely have a single KIX flight, while both have far superior feed, with JVs to boot. With the new NRT-KIX tag that DL announced, SEA-KIX would remain a pipe dream for a looooong time.

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