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Scorp82
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LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:59 am

Effective 25 October 2015, Lufthansa is canceling service to Jakarta, Indonesia.

With the cancelation of the KUL-CGK sector, LH will operate 5x week nonstop terminator Frankfurt to Kuala Lumpur service with A340-300.




Source: airlineroute.net
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting scorp82 (Thread starter):
with A340-300

Are these going to be in the "Jump" configuration?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
faucett
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:49 am

Again? First it was re-reouted from FRA-SIN-CGK to MUC-SIN-CGK and then completely cancelled a couple of years ago until the new FRA-KUL-CGK.
Indonesia being the large and touristic (and wonderful -my honest opinion) country it is, with ties to Europe, I can't understand why this route does not work. Why doesn't it?
faucett
 
macc
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:54 am

been on that flight 10 days ago, the plane was more or less empty between KUL - CGK - KUL. I guess they have too much competition from ME3 and not enough premium pax to CGK. The stop in KUL wont help either.
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
aviationaware
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:29 am

Quoting macc (Reply 3):
I guess they have too much competition from ME3 and not enough premium pax to CGK.

Yep. Those tag routes in the Asia-Pacific/Oceania region are the routes that are most under pressure by the ME3, it was only a question of when, not if.
 
Marvinhsv
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:42 am

Quoting faucett (Reply 2):
touristic

Well, not for Germans at least. Most people go to Thailand instead.
 
behramjee
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:06 am

This was bound to happen as LH offered a 2 stop five weekly operation to EU where as EK/EY/QR offer a minimum double daily option along side another daily one stop option on TG/SQ/CX.

LH is better off code sharing on SQ/TG via SIN/BKK to CGK/DPS/SUB !
 
HB-IWC
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:15 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 6):
This was bound to happen as LH offered a 2 stop five weekly operation to EU where as EK/EY/QR offer a minimum double daily option along side another daily one stop option on TG/SQ/CX.

On top of which TK has recently converted its IST CGK into a nonstop, offering even better connectivity to many more markets than the ME3. I guess it may be just a matter of time before AF exits CGK again as well.
 
mandala499
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:32 am

Quoting faucett (Reply 2):
Indonesia being the large and touristic (and wonderful -my honest opinion) country it is, with ties to Europe, I can't understand why this route does not work. Why doesn't it?

Touristic? Well, then they should fly to DPS instead. I never understood the logic of LH going via KUL. 5th freedom yields are low as hell on that route thanks to the LCCs, and they were hammered with via BKK due to the same thing... and via SIN is no longer as viable as before thanks to the LCCs too.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):
On top of which TK has recently converted its IST CGK into a nonstop, offering even better connectivity to many more markets than the ME3.

Even with the SIN stop, it diverted many pax away from LH, AF, KL, EK, EY, QR... for those pax not wanting to go to the euromegahubs...

Now... with all this, which is going to be next? AF via SIN? or GA direct AMS? We'll see...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:38 am

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 5):

Well, not for Germans at least. Most people go to Thailand instead.


or combine a beach holiday in DPS with a stop-over in SIN
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
behramjee
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:27 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 8):
Now... with all this, which is going to be next? AF via SIN? or GA direct AMS? We'll see...
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):
On top of which TK has recently converted its IST CGK into a nonstop, offering even better connectivity to many more markets than the ME3. I guess it may be just a matter of time before AF exits CGK again as well.

Considering AFs exit from KUL, yes I too will not be surprised if they suspend CGK by W15 season.
 
Scorp82
Topic Author
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
Are these going to be in the "Jump" configuration?

This is a very good question. My understanding is that initially only 3 of the A340-300 frames will be converted to the "Jump" configuration. Cities already selected for this Lufthansa Cityline configuration include CUN, MLE, MRU, TPA, BKK, CPT, HYD, SGN, NBO, PTY, and HKT. Within time, 14 of the 19 A340-300 frames will be converted. No specific time frame has been disclosed yet. I am certain that for the time being, this flight will have the standard mainline configuration. With due time, if LH continues to deploy the A340-300, most likely it will be converted to Lufthansa Cityline "Jump" configuration.
 
peanuts
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:30 am

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 5):
Well, not for Germans at least. Most people go to Thailand instead.

Still? I thought that was so ten years ago.

TK and ME3 is just having the EU3 for lunch on these type of routes right now.
 
continental004
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:57 am

Why are most EU-Indonesia routes save for GA's AMS-CGK one-stop rather than non-stop? Surely this is how the ME3 gain the advantage they do.
 
sealand
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:15 am

Quoting continental004 (Reply 13):
Why are most EU-Indonesia routes save for GA's AMS-CGK one-stop rather than non-stop? Surely this is how the ME3 gain the advantage they do.

That's because demand is not high enough and mainly due to CGK's runway restrictions.

For KUL-CGK flights, economy yields are trashy as LH just can't compete with AK/QZ/JT on fares. On the premium end, SIN-CGK is better than KUL-CGK but SQ and GA has a hold on it.

For Europe-CGK, LH is at a disadvantage with a 2-stop product and being generally more expensive then ME3. Moreover, as MH exits FRA, LH would want to leave more capacity for KUL rather than split it with CGK.
 
goldorak
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:34 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 10):
Considering AFs exit from KUL, yes I too will not be surprised if they suspend CGK by W15 season.
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 8):
Now... with all this, which is going to be next? AF via SIN?
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):
I guess it may be just a matter of time before AF exits CGK again as well.

It's unfortunately a possibility. However, AF benefits from GA Skyteam partner feed on the CGK side, so the route might perform better for AF than for LH.
 
galleypower
Posts: 267
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:07 am

Quoting scorp82 (Reply 11):
This is a very good question. My understanding is that initially only 3 of the A340-300 frames will be converted to the "Jump" configuration. Cities already selected for this Lufthansa Cityline configuration include CUN, MLE, MRU, TPA, BKK, CPT, HYD, SGN, NBO, PTY, and HKT. Within time, 14 of the 19 A340-300 frames will be converted. No specific time frame has been disclosed yet. I am certain that for the time being, this flight will have the standard mainline configuration. With due time, if LH continues to deploy the A340-300, most likely it will be converted to Lufthansa Cityline "Jump" configuration.

All remaining A343 will be converterd into the JUMP configuration. Look at the number of new destinations for WS 15/16, cant be done with only three frames.
 
mandala499
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:40 am

Quoting continental004 (Reply 13):
Why are most EU-Indonesia routes save for GA's AMS-CGK one-stop rather than non-stop? Surely this is how the ME3 gain the advantage they do.

We must remember that CGK is effectively 1 hour further from Europe than SIN, and 1H30 further than KUL.
This isn't much of a problem eastbound, but it is in westbound, where it faces predominantly headwinds, and winter you'll get a few hours worth of 50-100kts (sometimes 150 if you're unlucky and your flight planner is an idiot) of headwinds.
The extra fuel load required for the route compared with via SIN/KUL/BKK makes the route carry less cargo and therefore less profits.

Quoting sealand (Reply 14):
That's because demand is not high enough and mainly due to CGK's runway restrictions.

You can do the route with the 77L no problems. Yield is the main issue.

Quoting sealand (Reply 14):
For KUL-CGK flights, economy yields are trashy as LH just can't compete with AK/QZ/JT on fares. On the premium end, SIN-CGK is better than KUL-CGK but SQ and GA has a hold on it.

KUL-CGK has always been lower yield even before the AK/QZ/JT dominance, back then, MH held the premium. Now, it's a bloodbath route, and remember, to go to Europe via KUL, we have a choice of MH (remains reasonably supported by feeds from Indonesia, but then, yields aren't that good still, the Indonesian feed can't prop up the yields) and KL (the traditional carrier for CGK-Europe, and reasonably well patronized by Indonesians and Europeans alike, and the 5th freedom segment is a bargain and popular with Indonesians with the Dutch colonial 'heritage').

Quoting sealand (Reply 14):
For Europe-CGK, LH is at a disadvantage with a 2-stop product and being generally more expensive then ME3. Moreover, as MH exits FRA, LH would want to leave more capacity for KUL rather than split it with CGK.

Adding to the above, LH used to be reasonably competitive amongst European carriers. KL has now gotten the price lead for European carriers for CGK-Europe. Air France's pricing by experience was a recipe for disaster, and LH's isn't too bad but they are less prominent now.

ME3 has always been crazy with the pricing so nothing new there. The real killer for LH is TK. The connectivity to Europe for CGK is just unbeatable for it's price. Even when it was CGK-SIN-IST it was good. The food was well received by Indonesians.

TK has also given ME3 a run for their money for the Umrah route (religious pilgrimage to Mecca outside Hajj period), and Holyland tours, beating LY and EK as well a RJ for Holyland (with land transport from AMM)... and literally dominate the "Umrah plus religious sightseeing around the near East" niche.

Back to topic... The routing used to be CGK-SIN-BKK-FRA, which was reasonably patronized, then it became CGK-SIN-FRA, but then LH had to prioritize what it wanted to do with SIN, sending the A380 to SIN was the blow for the SIN-CGK portion. When they moved CGK to be CGK-SIN-MUC, they were as good as dead. I was surprised to see them back here, but it was obvious they were doing it to use up their rights by adding a few hours utility on the KUL flight. High yielding LH pax probably prefer going via SIN anyways and "enjoy the A380".   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Coal
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:26 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 17):
TK has also given ME3 a run for their money for the Umrah route (religious pilgrimage to Mecca outside Hajj period), and Holyland tours, beating LY and EK as well a RJ for Holyland (with land transport from AMM)... and literally dominate the "Umrah plus religious sightseeing around the near East" niche.

  

I can attest to that having flown CGK-SIN-IST-TLV at the lowest fare (although the ME3 were obviously not an option into TLV). As an aside, I booked CGK-SIN, SIN-IST, and IST-TLV separately because the fare was lower than booking it all together.

Not too surprised about LH. Honestly I don't know why they would think that KUL would work better than SIN. I flew LH SIN-CGK back in the day for peanuts... And this was even before the bloodbath of all the SE Asian LCCs.

Rgds
Coal
Nxt Flts: SQ SIN-KIX | HD UKB-CTS | NH CTS-NRT | SQ NRT-SIN | AK SIN-DPS-SIN
 
airbazar
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:02 pm

Quoting faucett (Reply 2):
Indonesia being the large and touristic (and wonderful -my honest opinion) country it is, with ties to Europe, I can't understand why this route does not work. Why doesn't it?

Indonesia, yes. Jakarta, no.
 
jfidler
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 3:32 pm

RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:03 pm

Sorry to see this go. I flew the FRA-SIN-CGK tag route a few years ago. I also flew their FRA-CUN-MNL tag route many times before they cancelled that tag also. Does LH have any tag routes left going to Asia?
 
330lover
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:17 pm

Quoting jfidler (Reply 20):
their FRA-CUN-MNL tag route

that's quite a detour  http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=fra-cun-mnl&MS=wls&MR=1800&MX=720x360&PM=*


I suppose you meant FRA-CAN-MNL ?

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=fra-cun-mnl&MS=wls&MR=1800&MX=720x360&PM=*

[Edited 2015-06-19 07:22:38]
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
 
stylo777
Posts: 2808
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: LH Cancels CGK

Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting jfidler (Reply 20):
Does LH have any tag routes left going to Asia?

apart from FRA-KUL-CGK, there is also FRA-SHE-TAO in Far East.

The Middle East has also a few tag routes such as:

FRA-RUH-BAH
FRA-DOH-MCT
FRA-KWI-DMM
FRA-JED-ADD
FRA-TSE-ALA
FRA-GYD-ASB
 
TKA380
Posts: 164
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):

Does anyone know what the load factor is for TK's CGK flights?
 
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eta unknown
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RE: LH Cancels CGK

Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:04 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 15):
It's unfortunately a possibility. However, AF benefits from GA Skyteam partner feed on the CGK side, so the route might perform better for AF than for LH.

Don't believe the illusion of one big happy Skyteam family- there is a lot of GA/KL cooperation, but virtually none with AF. Cargo might be keeping the JKT route alive, but I think it's only a matter of time before the SIN-JKT sector is suspended.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 17):
and winter you'll get a few hours worth of 50-100kts (sometimes 150 if you're unlucky and your flight planner is an idiot) of headwinds.

I think we have mutual acquaintances at GA  

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