Quoting racercoup (Reply 44): I have read in several industry articles about the general lower quality of orders this year such as Garuda. But the Whizz order takes it to a new level. Whizz operates a fleet of 61 aircraft with an average age of 3.1 years and now has 150 frames on order. What a joke

When I read the original release something stunk about this. A hungarian lowcost airline orders 110 A321NEOs as last minute sale to give Airbus sales win at Paris Air Show.

As an airline with only 61 frames why?

It is a bogus order, a Leahy propoganda stunt. They have no need for more than 10 frames maybe 11. But whats the cost of not taking the frames? Its nothing more than Air Zimbabwe ordering 1,987 A380's at LIST prices.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 47): What's wrong with them expanding? They're a Point-to-Point airline with bases all across Eastern Europe, so the planes simply go to new bases that are small or unopened. If they can pay for the aircraft and make money with them, I don't see the issue.

Wizz are the Ryanair of Eastern Europe, and one to seriously watch out for. They are highly successful in the UK particularly due to the Eastern European population who will fly with a brand they know and feel comfortable with, from airports that many of us consider to be in the middle of nowhere, but are actually slap bang in the middle of the catchment that they're marketing to.

I flew with them between Doncaster Sheffield & Vilnius, DSA had three flights over the entire day when I flew from there... but there was not a single seat not filled on that flight, with many spending on ancillaries.

That's European air travel. We take planes like we take buses, a seat and safe transit between point A and point B... a minority of people demand the frivolities of 'legacy' carriers. People care more about how much it costs than how godawful the legroom might be, and even if it is crap, people won't just stop flying with a carrier, they'll continue to do so for as long as the destinations appeal and the ticket prices are affordable.

Quoting billreid (Reply 50): It is a bogus order, a Leahy propoganda stunt.

Boeing was bidding aggressively to win this "propaganda stunt". Had Boeing won the order, I'll venture to guess you'd have applauded them for converting an Airbus customer?

Quoting billreid (Reply 50): As an airline with only 61 frames why?

Norwegian's fleet consisted of 61 aircraft when they placed an order for 222 frames. Where's the issue here?

Quoting billreid (Reply 50): When I read the original release something stunk about this. A hungarian lowcost airline orders 110 A321NEOs as last minute sale to give Airbus sales win at Paris Air Show.

You know, Boeing competed very aggressively to win this order:
http://leehamnews.com/2015/06/18/air...os-and-with-it-the-paris-air-show/

So it is very clearly a real order, and Hamilton also makes the point that Boeing really want more customers for the 737MAX200, because Wizzair are an airline that likes to pack them in like Ryanair, so in other words: prime 737MAX200 target.. or not.

Quoting flood (Reply 52): Boeing was bidding aggressively to win this "propaganda stunt". Had Boeing won the order, I'll venture to guess you'd have applauded them for converting an Airbus customer?

  

Quoting billreid (Reply 50): As an airline with only 61 frames why?

Wizzair will use some to replace current fleet, like a lot of LCCs they recycle quickly.

Quoting billreid (Reply 50): It is a bogus order, a Leahy propoganda stunt. They have no need for more than 10 frames maybe 11. But whats the cost of not taking the frames? Its nothing more than Air Zimbabwe ordering 1,987 A380's at LIST prices.

They have a fleet of 67 aircraft, so for replacement they'd need at least 50, and then the rest can be used for expansion. For example, they're opening bases at DEB and LUZ this year. Routes they do not currently serve.

What this order actually is is a low cost airline deciding that the best available aircraft for their needs was the right choice for them to expand their network.

Quoting flood (Reply 52): Norwegian's fleet consisted of 61 aircraft when they placed an order for 222 frames. Where's the issue here?

Nothing other its from an area of Europe that is not economically strong. Historically this region has massively struggled to grow airlines. The problem is the average wealth of the population. Its not Germany, the UK. The region does not have a strong abundance of inbound tourism, so where do you expect to find the growth? Simply the growth has to come from internally.

If the order had been for 50 A320NEOS I would believe it.
110 A321NEOS with 222 seats. Well how do you use these planes?

EasyJet uses 150 Seat configuration out of London.
Ryanair uses B737 series aircraft and flies frequently to tertiary airports but none are this big.
Wizz orders out of the blue 110 aircraft to serve who?

Quoting flood (Reply 52): Boeing was bidding aggressively to win this "propaganda stunt". Had Boeing won the order, I'll venture to guess you'd have applauded them for converting an Airbus customer?

Boeing has much less of a tendency to book "propaganda stunts" at the end of trade events. Airbus was doing this on their own soil, in France. So I see the want to win the sales show. The problem is what I said if it was for 50 aircraft with 150 seats then yes it makes some sense. 110 aircraft at 222 seats, lets all laugh at the "Sales Propaganda!"

If they were to take these frames then they will fail soon afterwards. The growth plan is far to aggressive for the base economy. On the flip side I see Leahy saying "Ok so you need 15 frames. Lets make it 110 that way when you need more they will be there at these prices, and if you dont then you can delay them until infinity at no cost."

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): Nothing other its from an area of Europe that is not economically strong. Historically this region has massively struggled to grow airlines.

It's 2015, not 1982. These countries are growing.

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): The problem is the average wealth of the population. Its not Germany, the UK. The region does not have a strong abundance of inbound tourism, so where do you expect to find the growth? Simply the growth has to come from internally.

Plenty of people want to fly from Western Europe to Eastern Europe. Don't you know that all the bloody immigrants come here and take our jobs?

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): If the order had been for 50 A320NEOS I would believe it. 110 A321NEOS with 222 seats. Well how do you use these planes?

You use them to increase capacity on existing routes and open new routes from new bases. Plenty of Eastern European cities don't have much service.

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): EasyJet uses 150 Seat configuration out of London. Ryanair uses B737 series aircraft and flies frequently to tertiary airports but none are this big. Wizz orders out of the blue 110 aircraft to serve who?

To serve... Eastern Europe! Hungary, the Czech Republic, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland... it's a lot of countries.

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): Boeing has much less of a tendency to book "propaganda stunts" at the end of trade events. Airbus was doing this on their own soil, in France. So I see the want to win the sales show. The problem is what I said if it was for 50 aircraft with 150 seats then yes it makes some sense. 110 aircraft at 222 seats, lets all laugh at the "Sales Propaganda!"

Boeing may like propaganda stunts less (which explains their modest 201 order for 737s with Obama present at the signing) but if Wizzair asked for 100 737MAX200s, I somehow don't think they'd say no to the chance to steal an all-Airbus operator. They didn't win, but they wanted to, badly.

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): If they were to take these frames then they will fail soon afterwards. The growth plan is far to aggressive for the base economy. On the flip side I see Leahy saying "Ok so you need 15 frames. Lets make it 110 that way when you need more they will be there at these prices, and if you dont then you can delay them until infinity at no cost."

Leahy sells what the customer wants, if WIzzair thought they couldn't hanle the growth they would order fewer aircraft. You also forget that the A321neo's operating costs are not that much above the A320neo, so Wizz are clearly aiming to increase revenue.

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): The problem is what I said if it was for 50 aircraft with 150 seats then yes it makes some sense. 110 aircraft at 222 seats, lets all laugh at the "Sales Propaganda!"

Ryanair flies all over Europe with 189 seat 738s. I'm sure a significant percentage of their flights are 100% full, where they could easily have sold another 20 or 30 seats if they were on the aircraft.

not to mention that with 239 seats on a a321neo they will most probably become the carrier with the lowest casm among all of the lcc in europe giving them the opportunity to compete head to head on some of the most established low cost routes outside their current home turf perhaps!?

Ciao
Joe

Quoting racercoup (Reply 44): What a joke

Quoting billreid (Reply 50): It is a bogus order, a Leahy propoganda stunt.

A joke of a bogus order that Boeing were desperate to win?   

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 55): Boeing may like propaganda stunts less (which explains their modest 201 order for 737s with Obama present at the signing) but if Wizzair asked for 100 737MAX200s, I somehow don't think they'd say no to the chance to steal an all-Airbus operator. They didn't win, but they wanted to, badly.

You are rooting not stating facts. Below I will present the average wages for Eastern Europe which explains why airlines have been able to carry to the East but very little going the other way is bought.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 55): Leahy sells what the customer wants, if WIzzair thought they couldn't hanle the growth they would order fewer aircraft. You also forget that the A321neo's operating costs are not that much above the A320neo, so Wizz are clearly aiming to increase revenue.

Leahy is a master of propaganda. And AB is known for out selling Boeing every year, yet they do not out deliver. AB has three cancellations for every Boeing. Why, because AB chooses to book orders that tend to be more flakey. I have no problem given the deliveries are hard results and orders in some cases are BS. But please lets discuss the probability of this order not assume WIZZ will simply grow 400% in an economic challenged area.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 55): To serve... Eastern Europe! Hungary, the Czech Republic, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland... it's a lot of countries.

Sure. Alot of countries does not translate into massive service. But yes all are leaving london and moving to Bucarest, Praha, etc for the gezillions of Pounds or Euros they can earn. Perhaps you know lots of people that are leaving London for Eastern Europe?

If people are doing so well in Eastern Europe then why are there thousands working in London in the Escort Industry and human trafficking sex trade?

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 57): not to mention that with 239 seats on a a321neo they will most probably become the carrier with the lowest casm among all of the lcc in europe giving them the opportunity to compete head to head on some of the most established low cost routes outside their current home turf perhaps!?

Then maybe they should have ordered 100 A380s instead. The CASM would be very very low!
Since when does low CASM translate to high RASM?

Wages 2015:
Average Gross Monthly Income Before Taxes and Deductions in Euros.
UK 2,223
Belgium 2,091
France 2,180
Spain 1,734
Portugal 1,001
Italy 2,010
Netherlands 2,158
Germany 2,154
Denmark 2,307
Norway 3,292
Sweden 2,551
Finland 2,300
Austria 2,124
Switzerland 4,250

Estonia 832
Latvia 601
Lithuania 544
Poland 730
Czech Republic 764
Slovakia 704
Hungary 497
Greece 1004
Romania 423
Bulgaria 356
Belarus 322
Russia 467

So the average Eastern European Earns about 20-25% of the average Western European. So once again who in heavens name are going to fly on these aircraft? Visiting London on a 500 Euro salary means you would spend six months salary on a weeks stay. Going the other way is affordable but there are language and tourism barriers.

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): You are rooting not stating facts. Below I will present the average wages for Eastern Europe which explains why airlines have been able to carry to the East but very little going the other way is bought.

You know people who work in Western Europe do go back to visit right? Also some of Wizz' destinations are popular, Prague is a big one, Poland has a fair amount of tourists as well. W6 have run the numbers, they know what they're doing. I should also note that Lion Air ordered a whopping 201 737s but Indonesia doesn't have a huge number of travelling people... yet.

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): Leahy is a master of propaganda. And AB is known for out selling Boeing every year, yet they do not out deliver. AB has three cancellations for every Boeing. Why, because AB chooses to book orders that tend to be more flakey. I have no problem given the deliveries are hard results and orders in some cases are BS. But please lets discuss the probability of this order not assume WIZZ will simply grow 400% in an economic challenged area.

Many of these aircraft will be delivered to replace current aircraft, it's hardly 400%, maybe just over 200% which is ambitious but realistic. It's worth noting that most of the 'propaganda orders' are A32Xs, and the A32X outdelivers the 737 at present, Boeing's lead in deliveries stems largely from their broader wibebody offerings, once the A330neo and A350 are up to speed, it will be tighter.

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): Sure. Alot of countries does not translate into massive service. But yes all are leaving london and moving to Bucarest, Praha, etc for the gezillions of Pounds or Euros they can earn. Perhaps you know lots of people that are leaving London for Eastern Europe?

As above, people from these countries who work/live in Western Europe go back home on occasion. In my university halls last year, I had 1 flatmate from Romania and another from Bulgaria, and they used W6 to go back home with a fair degree of regularity. W6 also have a fair number of countries that they could serve but don't, and there's little stopping them from simply setting up bases in Western Europe. DY, EZY and FR do it, so can W6.

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): If people are doing so well in Eastern Europe then why are there thousands working in London in the Escort Industry and human trafficking sex trade?

They earn money in Western Europe and fly back. People from Western Europe also do visit these countries, Prague and Poland as above, some seaside towns in Bulgaria... there's demand.

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): So the average Eastern European Earns about 20-25% of the average Western European. So once again who in heavens name are going to fly on these aircraft? Visiting London on a 500 Euro salary means you would spend six months salary on a weeks stay. Going the other way is affordable but there are language and tourism barriers.

I don't feel like repeating myself. This is not a propaganda order, it was simply an order won by Airbus. Boeing would have sold 100 737MAX200s, but they did not win. Easy peasy.

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): So the average Eastern European Earns about 20-25% of the average Western European. So once again who in heavens name are going to fly on these aircraft?

Those are averages, meaning many are lower and many are higher. In a city like Istanbul, for example, with a metro area population of 15 million, there must be a few million residents with incomes that easily permit travel, especially with today's very low LCC fares.

Not many people making the equivalent of the 4,250 euros (approximately 4,430 Swiss Francs) a month you show for Switzerland can afford air travel either. That number also looks much too low (a cashier in a supermarket makes almost that much from their first day of employment if they're working full time). That's barely enough to cover very basic needs for a single person, never mind a family, considering the high cost of living.

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): So I see the want to win the sales show

You see what you want to see. Nothing more.

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): You are rooting not stating facts

Stones and glass houses

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): AB has three cancellations for every Boeing.

I challenge you to present the evidence for that one... Stones and glass houses ...

Quoting scbriml (Reply 58): A joke of a bogus order that Boeing were desperate to win?

The fact that makes this whole "bogus order" conspiracy theory SO ridiculous

Indigo anyone?

Rgds

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 1): "A321neo..the plane that keeps Ray Conner up at nights"

I'm excited for the A321neo, but I don't think it's something "losing sleep" over, per se. The 737 MAX 9 and 757, while not competitive and dated, respectively, both aircraft, along with the 737-900ER will have solid market share for some years to come, and are useful for a myriad of missions.

Leahy has traditionally been over himself with a few of his statements. Personally, I find him rather annoying, almost childish, at times. I'm sure when Boeing launches the NSA and claims a 10-15% reduction in operating cost, Leahy, if still present, will counter by saying that the NSA cannot compete against an updated A320neo family.

To be fair, executives from both companies claim a lot, but numbers don't lie. I have no doubt the A321neo is a blockbuster market star, but then again, so is the 737 MAX 8, so when we start seeing the numbers, we'll know the truth.

The next several years will be interesting.

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): EasyJet uses 150 Seat configuration out of London

That's the A319, and 156 seats. They haven't taken delivery of a single A319 since 2011, but lots of A320s, with 180 seat configuration.
They have 119 aircraft outstanding on order at present out of a massive Airbus order for 135 planes placed in March 2014, all A320 ceo or neo, plus another 100 options. The neos will have rather more than 180 seats, as well!

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): And AB is known for out selling Boeing every year, yet they do not out deliver

since 2002 Airbus outsold Boeing in 10 years and out delivered Boeing in 9. So, what are you talking about?

Best regards
Thomas

I live in South part of Stockholm region not far away from Nyköping / Skavsta where both Ryanair and Wizzair fly from.

All my Polish friends park at my house when they go home.

They by 10 packages of airflight tickets and book one more or less 2 round trips per month.

Wizair has become a bus ticket for them to visit friends, family and taking care of business while many of them manage companies between Sweden and Poland.

Actually, Wizzair doesn't fly only to Western Europe from their Eastern European bases, they also fly to DWC from many of their bases and these routes will surely grow by the timeframe those A321 will come. With no ME carriers competition to their "tiny" bases, just as no European legacy ever put those airports on their destination map.

I flew OTP-EIN recently, W6 had not only the price, but the ideal direct route and there was a considerable percentage of corporate commuters in a full 320 both ways.

For sure they know what they are doing both in route map and product

Quoting racercoup (Reply 44): I have read in several industry articles about the general lower quality of orders this year such as Garuda. But the Whizz order takes it to a new level. Whizz operates a fleet of 61 aircraft with an average age of 3.1 years and now has 150 frames on order. What a joke

Quoting billreid (Reply 50): When I read the original release something stunk about this. A hungarian lowcost airline orders 110 A321NEOs as last minute sale to give Airbus sales win at Paris Air Show. As an airline with only 61 frames why? It is a bogus order, a Leahy propoganda stunt. They have no need for more than 10 frames maybe 11. But whats the cost of not taking the frames? Its nothing more than Air Zimbabwe ordering 1,987 A380's at LIST prices.

For the ill informed, Wizzair:

- the largest airline of Central Europe
- de facto replacement of Malev in Hungary
- successful IPO listing on the London Stock Exchange this year
- largest investor, Indigo Partners, U.S. private equity company owning c. 12%
- expanded from 1 to 59 aircraft in 11 years
- route and passenger growth at record levels
- 112 destinations in 38 countries
- Original tender was for 80 frames, for organic growth
- Boeing and Airbus fought equally hard for the order
- At the time of floatation, Nomura commented: "...we regard Wizz’s network as well diversified (no one territory represents more than 15% of seats offered) and forecast a strong period of network, revenue and net income growth."

Some years ago, a small airline called Ryanair overhauled their fleet from the 130 seat B732 to the 189 seat B738. What a joke that was....

Congratulations to the board of Wizzair and Airbus on this announcement; further endorsement that the A321 really is coming into its own.

Rgds

All the new LCC in Asia, growing like weed, have catchment areas with average income below Eastern Europe.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 68): - Original tender was for 80 frames, for organic growth

from the Airlines release:

Quote: “Our order for 110 A321neo aircraft will provide the platform to sustain our disciplined expansion over the longer term, enable us to continue to offer low fares to customers across CEE and beyond and drive strong growth well into the next decade.

Of course, Marketing, but as a public listed company they couldn't´t call it "disciplined expansion" in public, while considering it a very ambitious plan internally.

best regards
Thomas

Quoting billreid (Reply 50): As an airline with only 61 frames why?

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): assume WIZZ will simply grow 400%

Wizz Air has 70 additional A320ceo aircraft on order (43x A320ceo, 27x A321ceo) with deliveries until 2019. This will give them a fleet of 131 aircraft at the end of the decade. The new order of 110 A321neo jets will probably be used to start replacing the oldest aircraft in the fleet during the next decade, combined with a steady increase of growth.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 71): The new order of 110 A321neo jets will probably be used to start replacing the oldest aircraft in the fleet during the next decade, combined with a steady increase of growth.

They also canx 10 A321ceo with this order, so the net-order is just 100pcs.

best regards
Thomas1

Quoting billreid (Reply 50): When I read the original release something stunk about this. A hungarian lowcost airline orders 110 A321NEOs as last minute sale to give Airbus sales win at Paris Air Show. As an airline with only 61 frames why? It is a bogus order, a Leahy propoganda stunt. They have no need for more than 10 frames maybe 11. But whats the cost of not taking the frames? Its nothing more than Air Zimbabwe ordering 1,987 A380's at LIST prices.

Had they ordered the 737-8-200 Boeing offered, would you still say the same?

Quoting flood (Reply 52): Boeing was bidding aggressively to win this "propaganda stunt". Had Boeing won the order, I'll venture to guess you'd have applauded them for converting an Airbus customer?

Excellent point. Billreid is a well-known Boeing proponent and Airbus basher. He becomes active anytime Airbus scores a big sale against Boeing.

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): Boeing has much less of a tendency to book "propaganda stunts" at the end of trade events.

Yeah. Right. CoughcoughDubaicoughAircoughShowcough.

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): Leahy is a master of propaganda.

So is Randy Tinseth.
Propaganda is Leahy's job and he is doing it extremely well.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 60): Many of these aircraft will be delivered to replace current aircraft, it's hardly 400%, maybe just over 200% which is ambitious but realistic. It's worth noting that most of the 'propaganda orders' are A32Xs, and the A32X outdelivers the 737 at present, Replace current aircraft? Whizz Airlines currently operate 61 frames with an average age of 3.1 years. [quote=MrHMSH,reply=60]It's worth noting that most of the 'propaganda orders' are A32Xs, and the A32X outdelivers the 737 at present, Boeing's lead in deliveries stems largely from their broader wibebody offerings, once the A330neo and A350 are up to speed, it will be tighter.

Airbus delivered only 5 more narrow bodies than Boeing did in 2014. That all changes this year as Boeing ramped up the rate. As of end of May Boeing is up by 5 and should end the year up by about 12. Given the comparison in sales Airbus should be delivering 30 - 50 more frames per year, and yet is in no hurry to do so. The reason must be in the order book. Airbus orders must be out for a much longer period of time. That's why planes delivered is the real measure of leadership, not orders.

The Amedeo order was a prime example of what Leahy will do to "put up numbers"

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 60): Boeing's lead in deliveries stems largely from their broader wibebody offerings, once the A330neo and A350 are up to speed, it will be tighter.

By the time the A350 gets up to 100 frames per year Boeing will have a 500 unit lead in the class. That's a lead that will never be lost. Orders can be canceled, deliveries are forever.

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): The reason must be in the order book.

Yeah, the reason is in the order books. Most likely the delivery dates they agreed on with their customers.

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): That's why planes delivered is the real measure of leadership, not orders.

So, in the last 10 years Airbus is the market leader, and looking at the order book, also will be for the next decades totals.

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): That all changes this year as Boeing ramped up the rate.

Well, yeah, so far. But in the history of this battle Airbus always increased its output. And have you ever considered that early availability may be so important in selling the 737 vs. the A320 that making frames available earlier is just cheaper for them than further discounting their product?

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): That's a lead that will never be lost.

said the 767 to the 777.

best regards
Thomas

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): Given the comparison in sales Airbus should be delivering 30 - 50 more frames per year, and yet is in no hurry to do so. The reason must be in the order book.

They are in fact. However, they have made it abundantly clear that they are de-risking the transition from the A320CEO to A320NEO by limiting the demands on the supply process. They have recently announced rate increases to 60 per month from 2018, when that transition should be mature, and discussed rates beyond that.
This information is in the public domain.

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): By the time the A350 gets up to 100 frames per year Boeing will have a 500 unit lead in the class

By the time the 787 gets up to 100 framres delivered per year, the A330 will have a 1000 unit lead in the class. So what?

Rgds

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): Airbus delivered only 5 more narrow bodies than Boeing did in 2014. That all changes this year as Boeing ramped up the rate. As of end of May Boeing is up by 5 and should end the year up by about 12. Given the comparison in sales Airbus should be delivering 30 - 50 more frames per year, and yet is in no hurry to do so. The reason must be in the order book. Airbus orders must be out for a much longer period of time. That's why planes delivered is the real measure of leadership, not orders.

The A32Xneo still has the advantage. It has a big advantage as soon as airlines want more seats or a mix of A320/A321s or 738/739s. In any case, the A320neo is not short of demand, if Airbus pumped up the rate they'd probably still fill them easily.

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): The Amedeo order was a prime example of what Leahy will do to "put up numbers"

Maybe, but this is a highly successful and established LCC ordering aircraft to REPLACE and expand. Different kettle of fish.

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): By the time the A350 gets up to 100 frames per year Boeing will have a 500 unit lead in the class. That's a lead that will never be lost. Orders can be canceled, deliveries are forever.

Maybe, but again, Airbus won't be short of demand for the A350, so while Boeing may have a lead, Airbus will be making plenty of money on all their aircraft apart from the A380. They'll take that.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 2): Congrats to Airbus and Wizz Air. Now I have a question maybe somebody can answer it. At HHN, on some parking positions I saw several times last autumn this winter two 757-200 in full Wizz Air Colors. But I found no reference to them, no picture here, but I'm sure these are 757s. Could not come really near to take usable pictures. Anybody knows anything?

These are the crappy Russian VIM Avia 757s, one of which is being parted out and scrapped now. Their paint scheme looks roughly similar.

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): Then maybe they should have ordered 100 A380s instead.

I told ya Leahy's not bein' ambitious enough.  

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 75): said the 767 to the 777

hahaha Thank you!

Ciao
Joe

Quoting billreid (Reply 54): Boeing has much less of a tendency to book "propaganda stunts" at the end of trade events.

  

There is again the usual A versus B B.S. when Airbus wins an order which was also extremely hard fought over with Boeing. it is just laughable.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 71): Wizz Air has 70 additional A320ceo aircraft on order (43x A320ceo, 27x A321ceo) with deliveries until 2019. This will give them a fleet of 131 aircraft at the end of the decade. The new order of 110 A321neo jets will probably be used to start replacing the oldest aircraft in the fleet during the next decade, combined with a steady increase of growth.

And this says it all.  

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 63): I'm excited for the A321neo, but I don't think it's something "losing sleep" over, per se. The 737 MAX 9 and 757, while not competitive and dated, respectively, both aircraft, along with the 737-900ER will have solid market share for some years to come, and are useful for a myriad of missions.

I m sure Leahy didn't have Conner taking Tylenol PM to sleep at night in mind, I m guessing he s using it in a catchphrase style. 

As far as the 900ER ok I ll agree to that, but MAX9 and 757 we ll have to disagree. If you exclude the huge undefined Lion Air order the MAX9 has about 217 orders , 100 of each are from UA (cough cough..A380/ EK syndrom) , 35 from lessors and then you have TK AS AC and TUItravel. Not a good or solid orderbook. The 757 has had a great carrier so far but it's time to put it and the 757 replacement saga to rest. In about 10 years Boeing and Airbus will have the A320family/737family successor already planned and marketed

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 63): Leahy has traditionally been over himself with a few of his statements. Personally, I find him rather annoying, almost childish, at times. I'm sure when Boeing launches the NSA and claims a 10-15% reduction in operating cost, Leahy, if still present, will counter by saying that the NSA cannot compete against an updated A320neo family.

Leahy is a love him/hate him persona. There is no middle ground and in part that is one of his strengths. By the way what did you expect from head of sales? To come out and say..."Yes it is true the competition has bested us and we ll concede etc etc". It's no better than Boeing saying "The 321neo is trying to catch up" , "The A330neo is inslulting to customers" and blah blah.They both do it. It's just that at Airbus Leahy does all the dirty work for the group  . Bregier , Enders and even Williams are totally different characters. It would be great if Boeing had a "nemesis" figure to match him (only McNerney comes close but he is a level up ) and as I posted from the Reuters article in one of my first posts on this thread , executives at Boeing do "hate" him and very much consider him a "problem" and a "threat".

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 63): I have no doubt the A321neo is a blockbuster market star, but then again, so is the 737 MAX 8, so when we start seeing the numbers, we'll know the truth.

No argument here. But you know which one is bigger than the MAX8? The A320neo. The A320neo by itself has outsold the whole MAXfamily and will continue to do so because the MAXfamily unfortunatelly is basically a family of one. A very strong one but again that won't cut it. Throw in the A321neo, the LR and it's basically a no brainer. For all the wrong reasons I ll leave the MAX7 and the 319neo out of this discussion since most airlines have done the same  They will find their way (BBJ ACJ) I m sure but their lives on commercial airlines are just not in the cards

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 63): The next several years will be interesting.

On that we do agree  

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 63): I'm excited for the A321neo, but I don't think it's something "losing sleep" over, per se.

I'm pretty sure it was a joke and almost nobody took it seriously.

Quoting billreid (Reply 59): You are rooting not stating facts. Below I will present the average wages for Eastern Europe which explains why airlines have been able to carry to the East but very little going the other way is bought.

Why is this so hard to understand? Airline starts up, grows for a few years, becomes profitable. You are the CEO of that airline- what is your next step? Let your planes age and remain stagnant? Or renew your fleet and expand?

All this jumping through hoops to try and show this is not a genuine order just makes no sense. Looking at silly things like average salaries of Eastern Europeans ignores the fact that the airline is making a profit and has done for several years.

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): That's why planes delivered is the real measure of leadership, not orders.

Planes delivered is the real measure of planes delivered, just as planes ordered is the real measure of planes ordered.

The rest is in your head.

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): I m sure Leahy didn't have Conner taking Tylenol PM to sleep at night in mind, I m guessing he s using it in a catchphrase style.

Pft! I wouldn't count on it   

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): As far as the 900ER ok I ll agree to that, but MAX9 and 757 we ll have to disagree. If you exclude the huge undefined Lion Air order the MAX9 has about 217 orders , 100 of each are from UA (cough cough..A380/ EK syndrom) , 35 from lessors and then you have TK AS AC and TUItravel. Not a good or solid orderbook

The A321neo is clearly the better aircraft in regards to the MAX 9. I personally fail to see UA's need for 100. They should convert them all to 8s and order the A321neo, like what AA did wisely.

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): The 757 has had a great carrier so far but it's time to put it and the 757 replacement saga to rest. In about 10 years Boeing and Airbus will have the A320family/737family successor already planned and marketed

i.e., the Boeing NSA. Would imagine a new type to arrive around 2025.

The NSA will be launched, Airbus will have to counter, and we'll be playing this game all over again 

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): Leahy is a love him/hate him persona. There is no middle ground and in part that is one of his strengths. By the way what did you expect from head of sales? To come out and say..."Yes it is true the competition has bested us and we ll concede etc etc". It's no better than Boeing saying "The 321neo is trying to catch up" , "The A330neo is inslulting to customers" and blah blah.They both do it. It's just that at Airbus Leahy does all the dirty work for the group

I have no doubt that Leahy is a very effective salesman, but I think it's the arrogance and mouthing off I can't stand. I've seen videos of him. He's a character.

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): It would be great if Boeing had a "nemesis" figure to match him (only McNerney comes close but he is a level up ) and as I posted from the Reuters article in one of my first posts on this thread , executives at Boeing do "hate" him and very much consider him a "problem" and a "threat".

I'd be surprised if they didn't, given how aggressive Leahy is. Hopefully they do get a great salesman eventually.

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): No argument here. But you know which one is bigger than the MAX8? The A320neo. The A320neo by itself has outsold the whole MAXfamily and will continue to do so because the MAXfamily unfortunatelly is basically a family of one.

Sales doesn't equal "who's better." People are more likely to buy a BMW 328i over a Mercedes S550, but we know how that one ends  

Realistically, I think the 737 MAX 8 and A320neo are pretty equal in terms of capabilities, if not, marginal differences. Clearly the A321neo is better than the 737 MAX 9.

The A320neo family has a lot going for it. Rode on an A321 just last weekend. Loved it.

But I gotta go with the MAX. No plane will ever be more loved by me than the 737, save maybe the 777   

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): Throw in the A321neo, the LR and it's basically a no brainer.

The A321neoLR is the next big thing, but I guess it's only downfall would be it's inferior cargo capacity over the 757.

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): For all the wrong reasons I ll leave the MAX7 and the 319neo out of this discussion since most airlines have done the same

No blaming you there!

Quoting scbriml (Reply 82): I'm pretty sure it was a joke and almost nobody took it seriously.

Yeah, you're probably right.

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 84): Sales doesn't equal "who's better." People are more likely to buy a BMW 328i over a Mercedes S550, but we know how that one ends

All other things being equal yes they mean exactly that   An A320neo compared to a MAX8 is as close to apples to apples as you can get. Your comparison would be something like comparing sales of the 321neo to the 77W   

Light joking aside we are in 95% agreement   Should we have that looked at??      

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 83): Planes delivered is the real measure of planes delivered, just as planes ordered is the real measure of planes ordered. The rest is in your head.

Was that supposed to make sense?

Quoting racercoup (Reply 86): Was that supposed to make sense?

He's saying that comparing the deliveries on their own only tells you so much. The A32Xneo is a huge success story, and even if the MAX surpasses it (though this is far from a certainty), nothing changes that. The A32X series now has a big advantage because the average size is increasing, and the MAX9 is too far beyond the 737's limits to be an effective competitor. The facts go thus: there are plenty of order for the A32X, and even if some get cancelled, the slots will be gobbled up very quickly.

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 84): The A321neo is clearly the better aircraft in regards to the MAX 9. I personally fail to see UA's need for 100. They should convert them all to 8s and order the A321neo, like what AA did wisely.

It's actually impressive how the A321 is becoming if not 'the' aircraft of choice for US transcon, at least one of the really key players. I agree, on paper at least the MAX8 and A321neo seem like a much better fit.

Quoting racercoup (Reply 74): The Amedeo order was a prime example of what Leahy will do to "put up numbers"

Doubtful. I think it's simply about him wanting to move more A380's, which is not just about putting up numbers. It's about keeping a line going.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 76): By the time the 787 gets up to 100 framres delivered per year, the A330 will have a 1000 unit lead in the class. So what?

Ooh, kitty likes to scratch!  

-Dave

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 85): All other things being equal yes they mean exactly that   An A320neo compared to a MAX8 is as close to apples to apples as you can get. Your comparison would be something like comparing sales of the 321neo to the 77W

Or 737 MAX 8 compared to an A350-1000, if you'd like  

But you get the drift.

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 85): Light joking aside we are in 95% agreement   Should we have that looked at??

I'm still a Boeing boy, don't forget    But, Airbus is slowly getting my attention. Seeing as the A321 has won my favor, and seeing that some aspects of the MAX were poorly executed, it's only natural to conclude that the A320neo family does have some advantages over the MAX.

Historically, you and I have agreed on many things anyways.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 87): It's actually impressive how the A321 is becoming if not 'the' aircraft of choice for US transcon, at least one of the really key players

The A321, in my opinion, is quickly becoming the nicest and most executive aircraft of the airlines. American is using them, jetBlue, with the Mint cabin is using them too. I wouldn't be surprised if DL uses their A321s for Transcon to a certain extent, though I doubt they'll have a product as solid as AA and B6's.

UA's 757-200 P.S. service is clearly the most archaic and leaves a lot to be desired. The A321neo could really be an asset if they want to remain in the Transcon market, because, frankly, they're getting creamed.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 87): I agree, on paper at least the MAX8 and A321neo seem like a much better fit.

Currently, he two best narrowbodied jets money can buy  

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 84): I have no doubt that Leahy is a very effective salesman, but I think it's the arrogance and mouthing off I can't stand.

I do wonder if some of that is for "home consumption"- rallying the troops and so forth.

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): If you exclude the huge undefined Lion Air order the MAX9 has about 217 orders

Last time I looked the Boeing website identified 287 MAX9 orders which, to me, implies that 70 of the Lionair order are booked as 737-9MAX
That's the assumption I make in any of my figures

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 84): But I gotta go with the MAX. No plane will ever be more loved by me than the 737, save maybe the 777

  
747 dear boy, 747 ....

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 89): Seeing as the A321 has won my favor, and seeing that some aspects of the MAX were poorly executed

Poorly executed sounds a bit harsh. I believe Boeing are undertaking a high class execution in the MAX with the platform they've got.
It is what it is

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 90): I do wonder if some of that is for "home consumption"- rallying the troops and so forth

I don't think you need to wonder.
He seems to be extremely highly thought of by the Airline executives who he deals with.
That would not be the case if the "brash, arrogant Leahy" was the real McCoy.
Personally I think the guy likes to "tweak the tail" of his opposition now and again.
judging by the responses on here, it works  

If only some of our posters had the same sense of humour Leahy has  

Rgds

Quoting astuteman (Reply 91): That's the assumption I make in any of my figures

I used the pdxlight site that I have bookmarked for easy access   If Boeing says 287 then it must be more accurate

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 84): Sales doesn't equal "who's better."

No snark, but I'd love to have an example of any point in aircraft sales history where a plane that everyone agreed was clearly the weaker choice sold more  

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 93): but I'd love to have an example of any point in aircraft sales history where a plane that everyone agreed was clearly the weaker choice sold more

737classic when the A320 was still new?  

I guess i better look for a hiding place....

best regards
Thomas

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): As far as the 900ER ok I ll agree to that, but MAX9 and 757 we ll have to disagree. If you exclude the huge undefined Lion Air order the MAX9 has about 217 orders , 100 of each are from UA (cough cough..A380/ EK syndrom) , 35 from lessors and then you have TK AS AC and TUItravel. Not a good or solid orderbook. The 757 has had a great carrier so far but it's time to put it and the 757 replacement saga to rest. In about 10 years Boeing and Airbus will have the A320family/737family successor already planned and marketed

Until then I guess Airbus will re-wing the 320 family, at least the 321 and throw in a 322 while they are at it. That would serve as a two step stragedy on the way to the all new 32X family platform.
By doing that they can start making the wing manufacturing tooling for the new wing and get the learning curve going to prepeare for the transition to the new NSA family.
Also that stragedy would make some breathing room for the 2H2E system component producers to get up to speed, and shorten the ramp-up to rate 60 for the NSA

That would also throw a wedge in Boeings MOM plans.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 61):

Same for Norway.

Well that was an entertaining thread. I still wish John Leahy had a twitter account. Every-time he says something even mildly provocative, the reactions here are fun to read through.

The WOWAIR thread got me thinking....I wonder if Wizzair might oneday expand into Transatlantic flying by converting a few aircraft into A321neoLRs. They have already expanded Eastward into UAE, Israel and Georgia. One thing that strikes me about their route map is that they only have a single Russian destination (VKO). It seems like they could expand plenty into that market. I wonder if India is a possibility.

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 22): Somehow I don't see an A322 coming. The MOM concept that Boeing is starting to float around is something that probably came after they saw that they got little to offer (if any) between the MAX9/A321neo and the A338/788 sizes. The momentum that the 321neo has gathered is unbelievable (I don't even think Airbus expected this kind of "off the shelves" success that it is enjoying), and this is classical first phase of P.R. damage control. You slither from "No comment/We are happy where we stand" to "we re looking at it/we are studying it" in a matter of days. Airbus does it too of course.

Whatever they do eventually, they have plenty of time to decide, given the current neo backlog.

Quoting billreid (Reply 50): It is a bogus order, a Leahy propoganda stunt.

So if it is a bogus order, what happens next?

Quoting racercoup (Reply 44): I have read in several industry articles about the general lower quality of orders this year such as Garuda. But the Whizz order takes it to a new level. Whizz operates a fleet of 61 aircraft with an average age of 3.1 years and now has 150 frames on order. What a joke

Care to share those articles?

You mention Garuda, but didn't a certain Chicago based aerospace firm recently take orders from Garuda for 30 of their new narrowbody aircraft and 30 widebodies?

The fact that Wizzair has only 61 aircraft in the fleet, yet in its short history has already onsold 9 aircraft to other carriers already indicates a fleet high turnover. Therefore the carrier will need a lot of aircraft in the future for both growth and to maintain its existing size.

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 81): "The A330neo is inslulting to customers"

So insulting that multiple customers threw money at Airbus in return for deposits.  

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 84): The NSA will be launched, Airbus will have to counter, and we'll be playing this game all over again

   Given Airbus's neo backlog, I think they can probably afford to wait five years and then try leap-frog Boeing. On the other hand, I'd love to know how much efficiency the A320 could gain if it was given a new wing.....

Quoting Boeing778x (Reply 84): I've seen videos of him. He's a character.

I enjoy watching videos of him speak. He is very passionate about his products. If you look on airinsight's youtube page, there are some good videos of him at the Airbus Innovation days. If you don't like Leahy, Kiran Rao might be more appealing. He is very well spoken and good to listen to on these maters. He gives a good talk about the A321 in the first part of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bZPMz7Qo-4

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 97): One thing that strikes me about their route map is that they only have a single Russian destination (VKO).

Poland and Russia are not exactly friends as it is.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 97): So if it is a bogus order, what happens next?

Nothing at all. It could be nothing more than propaganda, chest heaving.
We know little about the order. Are there Guarantees? Penalties? 75% discounts? Deferred MX costs?

I have nothing against airbus, but I greatly dislike the BS that Leahy tends to throw into the fold. Like the comment on sleepless nights. That was silly.
I believe that WIZZ cannot sustain the growth that an order of this size would bring regardless of frame type.
Eastern Europe is economically challenged in comparison to western Europe as I mentioned, where average salary is about 25% of that in the West. That translates to difficulty in flowing to the west because the average consumer wont be able to afford the cost as frequently as in the west. Inbound traffic can b e good but it has its competitive limits. We are talking about an area that borders the Ukraine, has a winter and doesn't have the tourism demand of the western EU countries. Thee are no tropical beaches. So unless you build a hub with the plans of taking on TK in the region watch out.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 97): The WOWAIR thread got me thinking....I wonder if Wizzair might oneday expand into Transatlantic flying by converting a few aircraft into A321neoLRs. They have already expanded Eastward into UAE, Israel and Georgia. One thing that strikes me about their route map is that they only have a single Russian destination (VKO). It seems like they could expand plenty into that market. I wonder if India is a possibility.

Where are the passengers going to come from. Almost every Eastern European Airline has had great difficulty flying longhaul. All have tried destinations like NYC but have had poor results. The area doesn't have high brand recognition in the Americas and given the wage structure America and Canada is out of reach for most residents.

Short haul to Russia, UAE, Georgia and more will be quite possible. But I really think a 230 seat aircraft for most of their markets represents huge risk.