BA 787 Eco Pax Experience

flyenthu · Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:37 pm

Hi A. Netters:

I just read this. The drop in quality as described in the article sounds quite astounding. This sounds like a lack of upkeep. No?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngogl...=yahootix&partner=yahootix&ref=yfp

F/E

Boeing717200 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:00 pm

A 9 across 787 is horrid. Its only a matter of time before there is a revolt that will drive airlines that give a rip back to the 8-across it was designed for.

jayfred · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 1):

A 9 across 787 is horrid. Its only a matter of time before there is a revolt that will drive airlines that give a rip back to the 8-across it was designed for.

Funnily enough, the article didn't even begin to mention the lack of space...perhaps BA is letting their Dreamliner interiors deteriorate because they know that they'll soon need to gut them and replace them with a less-barbaric 8-across configuration. It's pretty appalling, though, given the fact that BA advertises on their website that they, themselves, "designed" the interior of their 787's. Might want to stop trumpeting that fact and blame it on a low-quality product they sourced from elsewhere...

by738 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:51 pm

Thep problem is that people dont walk with their feet, BA are raking it in on the 787 and no sign of that changing for the forseeable

seabosdca · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 1):
Its only a matter of time before there is a revolt that will drive airlines that give a rip back to the 8-across it was designed for.

First, it was not designed for 8 abreast. 8 abreast was an internal political trick by Boeing to avoid stepping on the 777's turf. Everyone working on the 787 knew it was a 9-abreast aircraft from the start.

Second, do you really imagine that Economy passengers, who overwhelmingly shop on fare, will "revolt" to demand 12% higher fares?

Stitch · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 1):
A 9 across 787 is horrid. Its only a matter of time before there is a revolt that will drive airlines that give a rip back to the 8-across it was designed for.

Passengers can show their distaste for today's Economy class products by following my example in purchasing only First Class and Business Class tickets when traveling.

As long as they keep buying tickets to travel in those "horrid" seats, airlines will keep installing them.

[Edited 2015-06-18 08:59:54]

Boeing717200 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
First, it was not designed for 8 abreast. 8 abreast was an internal political trick by Boeing to avoid stepping on the 777's turf. Everyone working on the 787 knew it was a 9-abreast aircraft from the start.

Sorry, but no.

Stitch · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:05 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
First, it was not designed for 8 abreast. 8 abreast was an internal political trick by Boeing to avoid stepping on the 777's turf. Everyone working on the 787 knew it was a 9-abreast aircraft from the start.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 6):
Sorry, but no.

I was on the 7E7 project at Boeing and while Boeing did indeed hope airlines would chose 8-abreast to offer an experience more comfortable than the 767, A330 and A340, they knew that airlines valued capacity so they intentionally designed the cabin to allow 9-abreast at 17" which has been successfully marketed by airlines since the 707 and DC-8 sixty years ago.

And yes. that decision to offer 9-abreast did ruffle feathers in the 777 team as it meant a 787-9 could directly and more efficiently replace a 777-200ER for airlines operating 1+2+1 First Class / Business Class, 2+2+2 Business Class and 3+3+3/2+5+2 Economy Class as they offer identical cabin lengths.

anstar · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting jayfred (Reply 2):
Funnily enough, the article didn't even begin to mention the lack of space...perhaps BA is letting their Dreamliner interiors deteriorate because they know that they'll soon need to gut them and replace them with a less-barbaric 8-across configuration.

I doubt BA will config them as 8 across. If they were - then I'm sure the 789 would be being delivered 8 across , but its not - its sticking to 9 across so any 8 across is just wishful thinking.

roseflyer · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:07 pm

Some of the people posting probably did not read the article because it is not about economy seat width. While if you read many a.net threads, economy seat with tends to be the number one concern about airplanes, this article comments about seat audio jacks, lavatory panels and flush mechanisms. It sounds like improved interior maintenance is needed. This is less a problem with the 787 but more so the quality of the interior components and maintenance. Economy seats are not really unique in design to any one airplane.

Stitch · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 8):
I doubt BA will config them as 8 across. If they were - then I'm sure the 789 would be being delivered 8 across , but its not - its sticking to 9 across so any 8 across is just wishful thinking.

British Airway's original plans back when they placed their order was for World Traveller Plus to be 2+3+2 and World Traveller to be 2+4+2. But economic realities caught up with wishful thinking and they adjusted the configuration to the current 3+3+3 in Economy (while keeping WTP at 7-abreast as an incentive to pay more for more comfort).

tommy1808 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
Second, do you really imagine that Economy passengers, who overwhelmingly shop on fare, will "revolt" to demand 12% higher fares?

between taxes and per pax cost like cki, catering and such they'd probably get 12% more space for actually paying 5% more. I haven't noticed tickets on Airbus planes being 5% more or airlines complain about those terrible 8-abreast economics on the A330/340 either.

Best regards
Thomas

redflyer · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 1):
A 9 across 787 is horrid. Its only a matter of time before there is a revolt that will drive airlines that give a rip back to the 8-across it was designed for.

I've flown 9 across 787's. Frankly, I couldn't tell I was miserable. Maybe if I were a widebody body I might be, but I didn't miss that extra space.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):

Second, do you really imagine that Economy passengers, who overwhelmingly shop on fare, will "revolt" to demand 12% higher fares?

Priceless!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
As long as they keep buying tickets to travel in those "horrid" seats, airlines will keep installing them.

No kidding! People keep squawking about Ryan Air being a horrible experience yet they seem to have no issues filling up their planes.

tommy1808 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 12):
People keep squawking about Ryan Air being a horrible experience yet they seem to have no issues filling up their planes.

Well, thanks to the 738s exit limit FR is one of the best airlines to fly eco in the EU market spacewise.

Many Airbus A32x habe a rather snugg configuration.

Best regards
Thomas

EddieDude · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting jayfred (Reply 2):
they'll soon need to gut them and replace them with a less-barbaric 8-across configuration.

Never going to happen. Airlines are in the business of making money. Losing so many seats and therefore revenue is out of the question for airlines. JL will probably be the only 8-abreast operator in the long run.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Passengers can show their distaste for today's Economy class products by following my example in purchasing only First Class and Business Class tickets when traveling.

For most people that is unthinkable. A large number economy class passengers cannot afford to buy premium class seats; and many could pay for it but just won't.

seabosdca · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 11):
between taxes and per pax cost like cki, catering and such they'd probably get 12% more space for actually paying 5% more.

Even if that's the case, most passengers would rather pay 5% less than get 12% more space. If that weren't the case, premium economy sections wouldn't be tiny.

Boeing717200 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
I was on the 7E7 project at Boeing and while Boeing did indeed hope airlines would chose 8-abreast to offer an experience more comfortable than the 767, A330 and A340, they knew that airlines valued capacity so they intentionally designed the cabin to allow 9-abreast at 17" which has been successfully marketed by airlines since the 707 and DC-8 sixty years ago.

It of course makes perfect sense that Boeing's biggest selling point was a new level in passenger comfort while allegedly designing a plane that would be less comfortable than any existing widebody flying.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 12):
I've flown 9 across 787's. Frankly, I couldn't tell I was miserable. Maybe if I were a widebody body I might be, but I didn't miss that extra space.

I'm 6'3" and a buck seventy five. A 9 across 787 is horrid.

[Edited 2015-06-18 09:32:02]

tommy1808 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 14):
Never going to happen

never say never, people do pay extra for a little more space like in economy comfort, when more people start paying attention to the space you get for your money, more people may be willing to pay a little more for a little more space. As long it is a little for a little.
But I think we'd rather see 4 and 5-class aircraft (Y-, Y, Y+, J & F) in the future.

best regards
Thomas

Stitch · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 14):
For most people that is unthinkable. A large number economy class passengers cannot afford to buy premium class seats; and many could pay for it but just won't.

Which is why I view all the carping about how terrible Boeing widebodies are to fly in as just people with nothing to complain about complaining about nothing (to quote Doug Stanhope). If it really was so unacceptable, Boeing widebodies would be going out empty in their Economy sections as passengers would only fly Airbus.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 16):
That's a fine story. It of course makes perfect sense that Boeing's biggest selling point was a new level in passenger comfort while allegedly designing a plane that would be less comfortable than any existing widebody flying.

Never flown a DC-10, MD-11, L-1011, 747 or 777 then, have you. I have, and I found the 787 to be more comfortable than any of them.

bastew · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:31 pm

Not wishing to provoke any accusations of xenophobia or racism but you cannot imagine the state of the 787 cabin after a HYD or MAA. Many passengers on these routes are very infrequent fliers, many elderly and many that are used to having domestic staff in the home. Changing childrens nappies in the cabin, attempting to flush said nappies down toilets or leaving them on the floor and many perplexed at how to use the lavatories.

In the case of 8 abreast - I don't see any airline ever going back to 8 abreast. They know that passengers in different classes have different priorities. While a flat bed etc etc ranks highly for Business/First Class travellers the overriding priority for most Y class passengers is price. How does BA know this? Because for the first few months of the aircraft flying BA contracted a market research company to put their staff on BA 787 flights and pay passengers £10 cash to give their views on the seats (which had already attracted negative comments). The end result was that yes, most of the Y class passengers did notice the reduced space but it would not deter them from booking a 787 or BA flight in the future.

EddieDude · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:32 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 12):
I've flown 9 across 787's. Frankly, I couldn't tell I was miserable.

I have flown 9-across 787s as well and it is fine. It is true I have sat on emergency exit row, AM has very generous pitch even in non-emergency exit rows, and MEX-JFK is merely 4 hours long (a tad under 5 on the return), but I do not have any complaints. I am flying AZ JFK-FCO in a 10-abreast 77E in a month. Now that will be HORRIBLE!

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 17):
never say never, people do pay extra for a little more space like in economy comfort, when more people start paying attention to the space you get for your money, more people may be willing to pay a little more for a little more space.

Yes, but as you say, that is what Premium Economy exists for. I have been flying premium economy recently on my long hauls (ORY-EWR, LAX-BNE, SYD-LAX), and it is great. Cost-sensitive travelers will continue to endure 9-across 787s and 10-across 777s because paying more for more hip and shoulder room is not always an option.

Boeing717200 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
Never flown a DC-10, MD-11, L-1011, 747 or 777 then, have you. I have, and I found the 787 to be more comfortable than any of them.

Flown them all, and you can't be serious.

MrHMSH · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:39 pm

This article suggests problems are with the seat design and upkeep rather than a 787-specific problem. I can believe it, BA are patchy at presentation: their 747s are sometimes pretty disgusting, and I absolutely hated the design of the TV remote (on top? What were you thinking?!). That said I've flown on BA's A380s which have similar but wider seats to the 787, and found them to be OK, acceptable for a 10hr flight (LHR-LAX), and I could tolerate it for 13hrs (BA's A380s to SIN). But I didn't like the big entertainment box, though I suppose it's necessary. I'm looking forwards to my eventual first 787 and A350 flights, if I remember correctly, the A350's entertainment box is designed into the seat stand, giving more room.

Bottom line? BA need to sort out the quality and consistency of their hard product. If all the 787s end up like the one described after 1-2 years, then many thousands of passengers will be doomed to awful flights when there really shouldn't be so many issues.

wingman · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 16):
It of course makes perfect sense that Boeing's biggest selling point was a new level in passenger comfort while allegedly designing a plane that would be less comfortable than any existing widebody flying.

And yet the seats are the same width as the 747, which never experienced a passenger "revolt", and the greatest Y-pax plane of all time, the 767, wasn't able to survive due to that factor.

In my book, the secret to the 787 is a 3 class config of 2-2-2, 2-4-2, and 3-3-3. Those final two classes will segment the folks like us on this site that truly buy based on seat width. The truth is that the market doesn't bear this out, it's a fallacy. If it were true Boeing would've gone bankrupt shortly after the A300 and A320 launched.

This story really is about shitty IFE. And I agree with the writer. I guess the 350 timed perfectly with seat-frame IFE.

ba319-131 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:47 pm

I flew G-ZBJA the other weekend can only agree with upkeep being an issue. Several items were visibly damaged and a number of items were being held together with duct tape, not particularly impressive really.

seabosdca · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 16):
designing a plane that would be less comfortable than any existing widebody flying.

Other than the 747, which rarely inspires complaint, and which has the same seat width with more middle seats?

DocLightning · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 1):
A 9 across 787 is horrid. Its only a matter of time before there is a revolt that will drive airlines that give a rip back to the 8-across it was designed for.

Every time airline service degrades, this prediction is made. It has yet to be true once.

Airlines will make the Y-class experience worse and worse because they want to make you pay for a premium product. And, at least for me, they won. I now will not fly >8 hours in regular Y. I will buy premium-Y (which means no US carriers for long-haul for me). Or I just choose not to travel.

Stitch · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:58 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 21):
Flown them all, and you can't be serious.

Very much so. *shrug*

flyenthu · Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting bastew (Reply 19):
Not wishing to provoke any accusations of xenophobia or racism but you cannot imagine the state of the 787 cabin after a HYD or MAA. Many passengers on these routes are very infrequent fliers, many elderly and many that are used to having domestic staff in the home. Changing childrens nappies in the cabin, attempting to flush said nappies down toilets or leaving them on the floor and many perplexed at how to use the lavatories.

This is an odd defense of the issues the author of the article indicated.

speedbored · Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Passengers can show their distaste for today's Economy class products by following my example in purchasing only First Class and Business Class tickets when traveling.

I'm definitely with you on that.

Had enough screaming babies, seat-back kickers, body-fat invasions and armrest fights for one lifetime, thank you very much.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
Never flown a DC-10, MD-11, L-1011, 747 or 777 then, have you. I have, and I found the 787 to be more comfortable than any of them.

But when you:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
purchase only First Class and Business Class tickets when traveling.

it is really more down to the seat than the aircraft

Personally I find that, if I leave all of my preconceptions at home, there is very little to different been any of of the current generation aircraft. I have found them all to be very very similar.

Stitch · Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 29):
...it is really more down to the seat than the aircraft.

Quite true. My experiences in the DC-10, MD-11 and L-1011 were with the old-style "Lazy-Boy" reclining seats. I will say the L-1011 was amazingly quiet and when it didn't have center bins, the cabin ceiling seemed almost cathedral-like. I've tried the "Lazy-Boy" and modern suites on the 747, but I have never really been a fan of the 747 because I find the nose cramped and the upper deck hot. I do give strong kudos to Lufthansa and the 747-8, however, since they went with a low-density configuration in the nose along with extra sound insulation and cabin humidifiers. It's probably one of my favorite planes, to be honest.

I love the space on the 777, but the 787 also feels pretty spacious (especially in Qatar's Business Class) and I enjoy the large windows, higher cabin pressure and higher cabin humidity. I do not feel as dehydrated nor as tired stepping off a 787 than I do any other widebody (sans the A380, which is also very pleasant - and I expect the A350 to offer similar levels of comfort).

WildcatYXU · Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
Even if that's the case, most passengers would rather pay 5% less than get 12% more space. If that weren't the case, premium economy sections wouldn't be tiny.

Premium economy sections are tiny because the price delta is not 5% but 50-100% compared to Y

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
Never flown a DC-10, MD-11, L-1011, 747 or 777 then, have you. I have, and I found the 787 to be more comfortable than any of them.

Didn't you once write that you only travel in F and J? Up there every aircraft is comfortable.

DocLightning · Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:01 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 31):
Premium economy sections are tiny because the price delta is not 5% but 50-100% compared to Y

And I pay it, but I agree. I'd rather pay 15% more to get a 15% better experience.

jayfred · Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 29):
it is really more down to the seat than the aircraft
[quote=anstar,reply=8]I doubt BA will config them as 8 across. If they were - then I'm sure the 789 would be being delivered 8 across , but its not - its sticking to 9 across so any 8 across is just wishful thinking.

I suppose I should have indicated that I didn't mean that seriously. No, the airlines are more than content to pack Y passengers in like cattle because, well, that's the only way much of the world can afford to travel. We can shout about it all we like on A.net but the fact of the matter is that the airlines have returned to profitability by high load factors and packing people into their (smaller, more efficient) aircraft like sardines. Such is the world in which we live. Gone are the days of piano lounges and "bar-car" feel in every aircraft. But in their place came the ability for people without incredible wealth to fly. And that's okay.

I'm a college student, so I understand the frustration about the incredible density that airlines are trying to cram into their planes, but, at the same time, I know that if this were 1960 or 1970 I would likely be unable to fly at all!

rbavfan · Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):

Funny every aviation article and original specs, Boeing released floor plans all noted it was 8 abreast coach design. They just found airlines willing to squeeze 9x in the plane. Boeing never wanted 17" isles in any plane.

justloveplanes · Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:32 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 23):
This story really is about shitty IFE. And I agree with the writer

Big underseat box electronics was all that Panasonic and Thales could offer? Sounds excessive in this day and age, BA must have had better alternatives. Seat cushions going flat sounds like they could have spent better. Maybe a supplier they won't use again.

AMALH747430 · Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:56 am

The focus of this article is cabin upkeep. I've flown BA within Europe multiple times and was not particularly impressed with the state of the cabins. In my experience, the only two airlines that have known how to properly maintain an aircraft cabin are LH and the former CO with DL receiving an honourable mention.

29erUSA187 · Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:02 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
Second, do you really imagine that Economy passengers, who overwhelmingly shop on fare, will "revolt" to demand 12% higher fares?

I hate how people (including my own parents), do this. "I want to pay less for a flight, but get better service". Wheres the logic there?

r2rho · Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:02 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Passengers can show their distaste for today's Economy class products by following my example in purchasing only First Class and Business Class tickets when traveling.

No, I'm afraid they cannot. The price gap between Y and J is huge, it is not a matter of paying slightly more. Even Y+ is often a watered-down J-class which costs twice as much as Y, while not offering a proportionally better experience. There is no middle ground being offered, except on airlines like KLM where the price of Y+ is more proportional to the additional price.

tommy1808 · Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:08 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
Even if that's the case, most passengers would rather pay 5% less than get 12% more space. If that weren't the case, premium economy sections wouldn't be tiny.

And which airline do you suggest offers premium economy for just 5% more? Heck, even KLMs economy comfort usually pans out more close to 15 than 5%.

Best regards
Thomas

MPadhi · Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:10 pm

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 36):
I've flown BA within Europe multiple times and was not particularly impressed with the state of the cabins.

How long ago was this? I flew a return to Geneva on their 320 and it was one of the nicest cabins I've ever seen in my life. The slim line leather seats are amazing! Perhaps the plane was newly refurbished though...

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 35):
Big underseat box electronics was all that Panasonic and Thales could offer?

Quoting wingman (Reply 23):
This story really is about rubbish IFE. And I agree with the writer.

This was my main gripe with the 788 in the windows seat. I had to keep my legs a little to the right the whole time. After about 7 hours it began to get pretty uncomfortable. Awful design.

BAeRJ100 · Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:39 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 1):
A 9 across 787 is horrid. Its only a matter of time before there is a revolt that will drive airlines that give a rip back to the 8-across it was designed for.

I respect other peoples' opinions, but personally I don't understand this... I'm quite a tall guy at 6'3", and a little stocky, and wasn't expecting much from flying 9-abreast on Scoot, but found both the leg room and seat width quite acceptable. Very comfortable for the 5 hour flight.

Polot · Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 39):
And which airline do you suggest offers premium economy for just 5% more? Heck, even KLMs economy comfort usually pans out more close to 15 than 5%.

Fly DL or UA enough and its free

tommy1808 · Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:43 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 42):
Fly DL or UA enough and its free

actually thats prepaid

best regards
Thomas

TheRedBaron · Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:14 pm

The article basically speaks about bad industrial design, and bad maintenance , for me its amazing a company like Boeing and the seat manufacturer can make such mistakes, and also a Company like BA have bad customer experience with a product badly maintained-supported.

The Article never spoke of cabin pressure or humidity or the window shade, heck not even seat pitch, I think that now that Cheap fuel is available the cabin should have more space, but people buy cramped seats anyway so why not make more $$$, that will never make a 787 a 8 abreast Y aircraft ever again.

TRB

roseflyer · Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 44):
The article basically speaks about bad industrial design, and bad maintenance , for me its amazing a company like Boeing and the seat manufacturer can make such mistakes, and also a Company like BA have bad customer experience with a product badly maintained-supported.

Seats take very heavy abuse and are very frequently damaged. More maintenance actions are done to seats, galleys and lavatories than any other part of the airplane.

Airlines choose the seats directly with the manufacturer. There are quite a few choices. Some airlines go with slimline seats to squeeze an extra row in. Some go with light weight seats to save a few pounds. Others go for a more traditional seat. Not all manufacturers are the same. Some seats are much lower quality than others.

British Airways uses an off the shelf Recaro seat on the 777, A380 and 787. The seat problems posted have little to do with the 787.

http://www.aircraftinteriorsinternat...nal.com/articles.php?ArticleID=760

XAM2175 · Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:09 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 38):
The price gap between Y and J is huge, it is not a matter of paying slightly more. Even Y+ is often a watered-down J-class which costs twice as much as Y, while not offering a proportionally better experience.

Y+ (or more correctly W) will never be a proper answer in my mind to declining comfort in Y as long as airlines keep treating it as J- more than Y+. Part of this comes from business creep, where the J product and service of today is coming to rival the First Class of the '80s and '90s, and now W class product and service has to try to fill an increasingly-larger gap between Y and J.

Using QF's Premium Economy as an example, one is offered:
Priority Check-in
Larger seats, more legroom, more recline
J-derived menu, pre-departure beverage, advance meal choice
Complimentary noise-cancelling headphones
Nicer amenity kit, nicer blanket
Priority disembarkation

Personally, I'd be more than content to slash that right back to Y service in a slightly bigger seat that's got at least one less person between me and the aisle. As it is though you can expect to pay two-to-three times the discount Y price.

If we were talking no more than one-and-one-quarter times the price I'd probably be very willing to let the FAs call me rude names and throw the meal into the tepid coffee they've already poured into my lap.

skychef747400 · Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:02 pm

Have to say having flown LHR-EWR in January it has to be the most uncomfortable flight I have ever encountered. I am a big fan of British Airways and have been to Everett to see the 787 being built and booked this trip to fly the Dreamliner but BA have really got it wrong with the choice of seats and general space provided. Flew back on a 772 and the comfort levels were so much better. Any flights in future I will avoid the 787, give me a 20 year plus 747 any day of the week. Not sure if this is just BA or all 787 operators. I understand they need to make a profit but flying to Newark was about as long as I could stand it. A really poor experience

justloveplanes · Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 38):
No, I'm afraid they cannot. The price gap between Y and J is huge, it is not a matter of paying slightly more. Even Y+ is often a watered-down J-class which costs twice as much as Y, while not offering a proportionally better experience. There is no middle ground being offered, except on airlines like KLM where the price of Y+ is more proportional to the additional price.

A while back SG and TH offered extremely reasonable premium economy seats on the A340-500 JFK to SIN and LAX to BKK direct flights. 18 hours. I paid $350 more or about 25% increase for 7 abreast and more pitch and priority boarding vice 8 abreast. I think it had about 30 degrees of recline. This is the kind of deal I am looking for when I can't fly business.

Quoting XAM2175 (Reply 46):
Personally, I'd be more than content to slash that right back to Y service in a slightly bigger seat that's got at least one less person between me and the aisle. As it is though you can expect to pay two-to-three times the discount Y price.

If we were talking no more than one-and-one-quarter times the price I'd probably be very willing to let the FAs call me rude names and throw the meal into the tepid coffee they've already poured into my lap.

See my above comment. UA tries your approach, but doesn't give you a better seat, just more pitch. I think they need to go farther. I have not tried ANA's premium economy on a 787. I understand it is 7 across (19.3" wide, 38" pitch) on a 787, not the main meal from J class, but desserts from there. Priority boarding. This one sounds more down the middle, though I think I would prefer just the economy stuff and the better seat if push came to shove. It is a tiny section, so looks like they are giving it a whirl. Hope it works. There just seems to be lots of FF's not always and J class that would find this affordable. UA's economy plus is 35" pitch. It does help for sure, just wish it was one seat less abreast.

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/ANA/ANA_Boeing_787-800_C.php

seabosdca · Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:28 pm

I suppose you all are right that we've really never had a product, at least not since the British Airways "old W" of the 1980s, that gives you a wider seat and nothing else vs. a cheap economy ticket. I might even pay for that product if the cost were actually proportional to the extra space. Having a low-cost 8Y 787 or 9Y 777 option would be pretty compelling.

Instead, we get either a bit more pitch without any increased width (worthless for someone broad-shouldered but not tall like me) or J-. I'm still skeptical that enough people would pay a 15% or so premium to make the product change worth it to the airlines, but someone should try it.

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