BA 787 Eco Pax Experience

Aither · Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:02 pm

I dont check the seat width before booking.
But now I know that BA does not mean more comfort.

roseflyer · Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting skychef747400 (Reply 47):
Have to say having flown LHR-EWR in January it has to be the most uncomfortable flight I have ever encountered. I am a big fan of British Airways and have been to Everett to see the 787 being built and booked this trip to fly the Dreamliner but BA have really got it wrong with the choice of seats and general space provided. Flew back on a 772 and the comfort levels were so much better. Any flights in future I will avoid the 787, give me a 20 year plus 747 any day of the week.

Can you clarify why the 787 was the most uncomfortable plane? If it is about seat width, then I don't know why you prefer a 747-400 since they have identical seat width. If it is about seat design, then the 777 and A380 use the exact same Recaro seat except with a different seat width on each plane. The 777, 787 and 747 have the same seat pitch. The space around the seat on a 747 is identical to the 787.

Btblue · Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:35 pm

Qatar Airways have 9 across on their 787, Thai also why is this such a big deal that BA do too?

peterinlisbon · Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:03 pm

I flew on a BA 767 the other day and it was a bit rough around the edges. There were worn furnishings here and there and I noticed that the panel between the toilet seemed to be coming loose. But then, they are retiring the last of the 767s soon so it didn't really surprise me. Still, the food and the service was very good.

Auchmithie · Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 51):
Can you clarify why the 787 was the most uncomfortable plane? If it is about seat width, then I don't know why you prefer a 747-400 since they have identical seat width. If it is about seat design, then the 777 and A380 use the exact same Recaro seat except with a different seat width on each plane. The 777, 787 and 747 have the same seat pitch. The space around the seat on a 747 is identical to the 787.

With equal width aisles there is more space available across the cabin for ten abreast + two aisles on a 747 than there is for nine abreast + two aisles on a 787. Not a lot, but it is greater. Equal seat widths on both types therefore means a narrower aisle on the 787 resulting in aisle seat passengers getting bumped by passengers and crew more often, and leaning into the space of middle seat passengers more often, causing a knock on effect across the row. The impression of personal space is therefore somewhat diminished on the 787 over a 747 even in an identical seat.

FlyKev · Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:35 pm

Its a shame the 787 is suffering from complaints like this.

On the upside, JAL refurbished their 787s and are cleverly using the fact they only have 8 across in their marketing:

http://www.jal.co.jp/en/newsky/ss8_ss9/economy/seat/

Needless to say, I am looking forward to experiencing it in September.

Kev

TheRedBaron · Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:27 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 45):
British Airways uses an off the shelf Recaro seat on the 777, A380 and 787. The seat problems posted have little to do with the 787.

I agree with your post, yes Boeing does not make the seats, but they designed the lava and some of the failing parts on the article. With that in mind I think they should make a sturdier materials or less prone to breakage, for example a lot of us hate the weird buzzing some panels on the A320 makes while taking off at TOGA powers, for me its a sign something can be improved.

Quoting skychef747400 (Reply 47):
BA have really got it wrong with the choice of seats and general space provided.

This ! A very old airline, with a lot of knowledge on operations should know better when choosing seats that may fail due to port design…that is my main gripe here… also if you buy seats by the truckload, I think you are entitle to say "your product has this shortcomings or badly designed parts…

TRB

trex8 · Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:42 am

Aren't all seats on the 787 and A350 "approved" by the airframe OEM. I thought airlines had to chose from a limited catalog selection and didnt have total freedom in choosing their seats?

Viscount724 · Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 55):
On the upside, JAL refurbished their 787s and are cleverly using the fact they only have 8 across in their marketing:

JAL 787s have been 8-abreast since they were delivered. What "refurbishing" are you referring to?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
Never flown a DC-10, MD-11, L-1011, 747 or 777 then, have you. I have, and I found the 787 to be more comfortable than any of them.

I am guessing you're not referring to Y class. I haven't flown on a 787 but I've been told 9-abreast on a 787 is very similar to 10-abreast on a 777, and if that's the case, then in my experience the DC-10, MD-11, L-1011 and 747 at their most usual non-charter seating configurations (9-abreast on DC-10, MD-11, L-1011, and 10-abreast on 747) are better than a 10-abreast 777.

When was the last time you flew longhaul international in Y class?

Viscount724 · Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:08 am

After reading the article in the opening post, I find it very strange that almost every reply in this thread is referring to BA's 9-abreast Y class seating on the 787 when there's not one reference to that in the OP. It's totally about other BA service issues, cabin maintenance etc. My guess is that few of those replying actually read the article.

TheRedBaron · Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 59):
After reading the article in the opening post, I find it very strange that almost every reply in this thread is referring to BA's 9-abreast Y class seating on the 787 when there's not one reference to that in the OP. It's totally about other BA service issues, cabin maintenance etc. My guess is that few of those replying actually read the article.

My question still stands..how BA has a badly designed seat port...

TRB

Stitch · Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 58):
When was the last time you flew longhaul international in Y class?

1991.

I have parked my bum in the back of a 787 for a short bit and I agree it's not pleasant. But neither is the back of any other modern widebody or narrowbody I've also parked my bum in for a short visit (mainly to gather data for submissions to seatguru). Hence why I don't fly Economy. I could certainly travel a heck of a lot more if I did, but I'd rather enjoy myself the entire journey rather than have it begin and end poorly and be nice in the middle (when I am not on the plane).

[Edited 2015-06-19 19:24:42]

MPadhi · Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:51 am

Quoting theredbaron (Reply 60):
My question still stands..how BA has a badly designed seat port...

They don't work with your own headphones if they have an inline remote, which is horrendous design. Also, the article in the OP states that the headphone ports are beginning to stop working properly with passengers having to hold them in.

EPA001 · Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:31 pm

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 55):
On the upside, JAL refurbished their 787s and are cleverly using the fact they only have 8 across in their marketing:

And good for them since at 8-abreast the comfort will be way better for the passengers in economy or economy-plus.

That refurbishment was done rather quickly I guess since the B787's are all still very young.

global2 · Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 9):
Some of the people posting probably did not read the article because it is not about economy seat width. While if you read many a.net threads, economy seat with tends to be the number one concern about airplanes, this article comments about seat audio jacks, lavatory panels and flush mechanisms.

Thank you. The obsession with some on here over 0.8 of an inch difference in seat width is amazing to me. I think having 33" pitch vs 31" (with additional recline angle) makes a whole lot more of a difference in comfort, and as the article mentioned, if the seat cushion is still fluffy or not.

Viscount724 · Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 63):
Quoting FlyKev (Reply 55):
On the upside, JAL refurbished their 787s and are cleverly using the fact they only have 8 across in their marketing:

And good for them since at 8-abreast the comfort will be way better for the passengers in economy or economy-plus.

That refurbishment was done rather quickly I guess since the B787's are all still very young.

People keep saying JAL refurbished their 787s. What are they referring to? Their 787s have always been 8-abreast. Have they done something else since they were delivered?

Richard28 · Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:42 am

The reviews of the BA 787 Y product have pretty awful reviews on seat guru

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Bri...s/British_Airways_Boeing_787-8.php

jetwet1 · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:43 am

Remember, BA is the company that sells a Euro business class seat with a 30 inch seat pitch, so passenger comfort is not exactly high on their list of priorities, Club is not that great IMHO, first, I actually like it a lot, but the insane fuel surcharges on FF redemptions have driven me away from BA.

Now back to the original topic, I noticed the cabins starting to get rough around the edges back in 2010, does anyone who follows BA more than me know of any event that would have caused that ?

jah718 · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Passengers can show their distaste for today's Economy class products by following my example in purchasing only First Class and Business Class tickets when traveling.

If you only fly F and J, then how is your argument relevant? F and J are comfortable on any plane, Y varies greatly from plane to plane.

I would also like to agree that the 787 is particularly uncomfortable in Y, to the degree that I would avoid it over other aircraft.

FlyKev · Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 65):
People keep saying JAL refurbished their 787s. What are they referring to? Their 787s have always been 8-abreast. Have they done something else since they were delivered?

JAL have recently started refitting their 787s.

Economy has dropped from 144 seats to just 88 seats with new flat seats in Business:
https://www.jal.co.jp/en/787/

As you can see the reconfiguration features new wider seats, new interior colours (Red instead of a strange lightish grey) and a new touchscreen IFE system.

vs

Granted, they already had 8 across seating in Y, however considering their closest rival has switched to 9 across and that most airlines these days use refurbishments as an excuse to cram in more seats; JAL needs to be respected for actually shrinking their economy cabin.

I hope that answers your question.

Kevin.

TheRedBaron · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:00 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 61):
1991.

I have parked my bum in the back of a 787 for a short bit and I agree it's not pleasant. But neither is the back of any other modern widebody or narrowbody I've also parked my bum in for a short visit (mainly to gather data for submissions to seatguru). Hence why I don't fly Economy. I could certainly travel a heck of a lot more if I did, but I'd rather enjoy myself the entire journey rather than have it begin and end poorly and be nice in the middle (when I am not on the plane).

Quoting MPadhi (Reply 62):
They don't work with your own headphones if they have an inline remote, which is horrendous design. Also, the article in the OP states that the headphone ports are beginning to stop working properly with passengers having to hold them in.

I did not use proper english my question was : How an Airline like BA accepts a badly designed product. Sorry for the confusion.

Stitch, back in 1991 !!! Holy smokes those were the DARK AGES. my take is that if the flight is less than 4 and a half hours Y will be selected (or maybe J if price is not a rip off) after 5 hours I will not be seated in anything less than REAL Y+ or better. DVT is not worth at any price.

Quoting jah718 (Reply 68):
If you only fly F and J, then how is your argument relevant? F and J are comfortable on any plane, Y varies greatly from plane to plane.

You did not read the UA thread 3 weeks ago on non reclining F class? not all F and J is the same (sadly) the hard product of some carriers leaves a lot to be desired.

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 69):
JAL have recently started refitting their 787s.

Kudos to JAL, its nice someone is letting the public decide to spend extra money to get to a decent Y seat. (in a very decent Aircraft BTW)

TRB

billreid · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Passengers can show their distaste for today's Economy class products by following my example in purchasing only First Class and Business Class tickets when traveling.

As long as they keep buying tickets to travel in those "horrid" seats, airlines will keep installing them.

Not everybody can afford a $8,000 fare especially when you are flying with your wife too.
Thats quite expensive.

wingman · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:09 pm

To my mind this JAL configuration really makes an outstanding Y+ product with a high end Business/First type product above and the steerage class of 3-3-3 below. It just seems to me that you'd get "normal" folk willing to splurge $300-$400 more per seat each way on a long TATL or Pacific flight. I look at that JAL economy class and it actually doesn't look too frightening for 10-12 hours. Of course pitch matters too, as much as seat width in my opinion. I've done 11 hrs on an LH 346 and it was brutal, no two ways about it. Awful pitch and giant Germanic tribesmen pissing an moaning about reclining the seat to sleep.

Anyway, I hops this JAL set up survives. If I ever see that 787 at SFO it'd be a top choice for any leisure run to Asia.

Viscount724 · Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 69):
needs to be respected for actually shrinking their economy cabin.

Has the Y seat pitch been increased? If they've only reduced the number of Y seats to make room for an improved J product, that's of no benefit to the Y passenger.

atlflyer · Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:20 pm

8 abreast on a 787 looks lovely...how the 787 was supposed to be configured. That is a true Dreamliner.

RickNRoll · Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:09 am

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 35):
Big underseat box electronics was all that Panasonic and Thales could offer? Sounds excessive in this day and age, BA must have had better alternatives. Seat cushions going flat sounds like they could have spent better. Maybe a supplier they won't use again.

A phone can provide perfectly adequate video performance these days. Why would you need a massive box under a seat?

seahawk · Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:19 am

If one considers the higher air pressure and the big windows, the 787 is still a very comfortable and pleasant aircraft to fly in. Imho it has set a new standard for passenger comfort no competitor can match.

FlyKev · Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:24 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 74):
Has the Y seat pitch been increased? If they've only reduced the number of Y seats to make room for an improved J product, that's of no benefit to the Y passenger.

JAL increased Economy pitch from 31" to roughly 33" with the refit also.

Kev

tjh8402 · Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:35 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 31):
Premium economy sections are tiny because the price delta is not 5% but 50-100% compared to Y

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
And I pay it, but I agree. I'd rather pay 15% more to get a 15% better experience.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 38):
No, I'm afraid they cannot. The price gap between Y and J is huge, it is not a matter of paying slightly more. Even Y+ is often a watered-down J-class which costs twice as much as Y, while not offering a proportionally better experience. There is no middle ground being offered, except on airlines like KLM where the price of Y+ is more proportional to the additional price.

Quoting XAM2175 (Reply 46):

Y+ (or more correctly W) will never be a proper answer in my mind to declining comfort in Y as long as airlines keep treating it as J- more than Y+. Part of this comes from business creep, where the J product and service of today is coming to rival the First Class of the '80s and '90s, and now W class product and service has to try to fill an increasingly-larger gap between Y and J.

Using QF's Premium Economy as an example, one is offered:
Priority Check-in
Larger seats, more legroom, more recline
J-derived menu, pre-departure beverage, advance meal choice
Complimentary noise-cancelling headphones
Nicer amenity kit, nicer blanket
Priority disembarkation

Personally, I'd be more than content to slash that right back to Y service in a slightly bigger seat that's got at least one less person between me and the aisle. As it is though you can expect to pay two-to-three times the discount Y price.

If we were talking no more than one-and-one-quarter times the price I'd probably be very willing to let the FAs call me rude names and throw the meal into the tepid coffee they've already poured into my lap.

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 48):
See my above comment. UA tries your approach, but doesn't give you a better seat, just more pitch. I think they need to go farther. I have not tried ANA's premium economy on a 787. I understand it is 7 across (19.3" wide, 38" pitch) on a 787, not the main meal from J class, but desserts from there. Priority boarding. This one sounds more down the middle, though I think I would prefer just the economy stuff and the better seat if push came to shove. It is a tiny section, so looks like they are giving it a whirl. Hope it works. There just seems to be lots of FF's not always and J class that would find this affordable. UA's economy plus is 35" pitch. It does help for sure, just wish it was one seat less abreast.

What sort of premium does AA charge for MCE in their 777s? In the new configuration, MCE is exactly what some of you are asking for: Y class service in a slightly larger (9 across vs 10 across) seat. Is it being more or less successful than what AA is doing on the 787s (or what UA will be doing on their 77ws), which is making MCE/E+ the same as Y just with more legroom? I would think that if people actually end up paying for those MCE seats in the AA 777s, an offering like that will be more common, whereas if it ends up being filled with FF complimentary upgrades, the AA 787/UA model will win out.

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