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AF086
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DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:05 pm

Delta filed a request to the Brazilian regulator (ANAC) to fly MCO-BSB, 4x weekly with the 752 as follows:

EFF 01DEC15

DL586 - BSB 23:59 - MCO 05:00 - 752 - MoWeFrSu
DL587 - MCO 20:25 - BSB 07:25 - 752 - TuThSaSu

Interesting that GIG was not caught in that "MCO-Brazil" wave.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
deltalaw
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:07 pm

Wow DL is more serious about the MCO-Brazilian market than just GRU. Very interesting.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:09 pm

Interesting........... I'm not sure I see the appeal but clearly someone in route planning does.

Quoting AF086 (Thread starter):
Interesting that GIG was not caught in that "MCO-Brazil" wave.

I suspect it's due to aircraft limitations. The 757 can't do MCO-GIG and they probably determined that the 767 would be too much capacity.
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Polot
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:11 pm

DL's Brazil-ATL flights are no doubt filled with people continuing on to MCO, and DL probably feeling the heat from the new attention that MCO is getting. Interestingly TAM's MCO-BSB flight started 3 days ago, and people are probably also now choosing to connect with Azul.
 
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RWA380
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting deltalaw (Reply 1):

Wow DL is more serious about the MCO-Brazilian market than just GRU. Very interesting.

Maybe they are not done requesting routes to Brazil from MCO yet.

Quoting polot (Reply 3):

DL's Brazil-ATL flights are no doubt filled with people continuing on to MCO, and DL probably feeling the heat from the new attention that MCO is getting.

On a recent trip to Disney World & Epcot, I heard a lot of Portuguese being spoken throughout the entire area. I'm expecting that during the down TATL months DL is looking for even low yield tourist traffic to keep their large fleet working & earning money.

I'm sure you are right, DL has obviously seen there are plenty of passengers routing via ATL & by adding these steam valve flights, it opens up more seats to the rest of their network via ATL. How many carriers fly Brazil to Orlando currently?
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MAH4546
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:44 pm

I suspect this is just moving the flight from ATL. Such an insane amount of BSB-U.S. demand is all Florida, much more so than other markets.
a.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4):
Maybe they are not done requesting routes to Brazil from MCO yet.

I don't think they are at all. I can see MCO-MAO/GIG/REC to link up with GOL.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:57 pm

Just when we think US-Brazil has over-capacity, here we come :

AD : MCO-GRU/VCP/CNF
JJ : MCO-GRU/BSB
DL : MCO-GRU/BSB

Quoting AF086 (Thread starter):
Interesting that GIG was not caught in that "MCO-Brazil" wave.

But sadly, MCO-GIG = 0x

Between Azul's brand new A330 and DL's cosy 757, might be a tough choice /s
 
OOer
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:58 pm

Is there a link or a news article?
 
AF086
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:00 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7):
But sadly, MCO-GIG = 0x

Indeed. It baffles me why GIG was left out. At least so far. The only service to MCO is Gol's 3x weekly one-stop flight.
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peanuts
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:26 pm

I'm starting to think the term "low yield tourist market" is way overrated and overused on a.net.
Carriers like DL seem to go after it like a dog in heat.

So who do legacies need more...front of the plane or the back? Obviously it needs both.
They know their own traffic. They know who goes to MCO.

To me MCO-South America by DL is a prelude to them entering the MIA-Latin America market.

It also depends how fierce the competition with AA becomes.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:30 pm

So DL wants a Florida hub and doesn't want to go against AA, so they picked the 2nd best at MCO ? Maybe move half the ATL-Brazil network down ?

Over the next 24 months we'll probably see a lot of MCO domestic adds to non-hubs just to feed these flights against a very large LCC incumbent. This story sounds oddly similar to the one we're already hearing.

While they're at it, might as well add BOS as another European scissor hub to compliment JFK. /s Then they can have SEA-LAX-MCO-BOS 4 corner stones, MSP-DTW-ATL interior triangle, plus NYC and the neglected SLC.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:45 pm

I don't believe Delta wants a Florida hub. They are simply moving Brazil capacity to where it largely originates for it.
a.
 
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OA412
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
I don't believe Delta wants a Florida hub. They are simply moving Brazil capacity to where it largely originates for it.

I think this is exactly right.
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commavia
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:13 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
I suspect this is just moving the flight from ATL.

It will, indeed, be interesting to see if this is in place of, or alongside, ATL-BSB.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
Such an insane amount of BSB-U.S. demand is all Florida, much more so than other markets.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
I don't believe Delta wants a Florida hub. They are simply moving Brazil capacity to where it largely originates for it.

  

As discussed recently when Delta announced MCO-GRU, it is perhaps unsurprising that Delta is moving aggressively in MCO-Brazil given that it's likely one of the largest feed contributors to the ATL-Brazil flights, and yet it's also a market in which Delta's 1-stop offering via ATL is becoming progressively less attractive and competitive given the influx of capacity.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 10):
To me MCO-South America by DL is a prelude to them entering the MIA-Latin America market.

Perhaps. In the context of a JV with GOL, it's not impossible to imagine flights feeding into GRU from MIA in addition to MCO and the hubs.
 
OOer
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:21 pm

International traffic to/from MCO:

 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:21 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):

exactly.

I expect more changes as JVs (AA/TAM DL/GOL) happen once Open skies takes effect.
 
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:38 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
Over the next 24 months we'll probably see a lot of MCO domestic adds to non-hubs just to feed these flights

I don't necessarily think so. DL will already have most of the biggest sources of U.S.-Brazil traffic connected to MCO - NYC, MIA, BOS, LAX, etc., not to mention the large amount of O&D traffic that is the whole reason DL would even consider moving some Brazil flights from ATL to MCO in the first place.
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dfwjim1
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 15):

Interesting statistics. Amazing the growth that has occurred regarding travel between Brazil and Orlando.
 
usflyguy
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:41 am

Quoting AF086 (Thread starter):
EFF 01DEC15

DL586 - BSB 23:59 - MCO 05:00 - 752 - MoWeFrSu
DL587 - MCO 20:25 - BSB 07:25 - 752 - TuThSaSu

Is this plane sitting in BSB all day or is it a plane doing ATL-BSB-MCO and MCO-BSB-ATL?
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TVNWZ
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:47 am

Brazilians have been buying up condos and homes in big numbers in Orlando since the late 60's. This Is just Delta fishing where the fish are.
 
Noise
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 15):

International traffic to/from MCO:




Wow, where did you find this? Care to share the link?
 
gen2stew
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:00 am

And AA is where? I think I crickets chirping. What a pity.
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commavia
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting Gen2stew (Reply 22):
And AA is where?

Where it's long been - a few hundred miles down the highway in MIA, where it will offer more seats to GRU alone (let alone GIG, CNF, VCP, REC, SSA, MAO, BSB, CWB and POA) in a weekend than Delta will operate to all of Brazil all week out of MCO.

[Edited 2015-06-18 19:13:14]
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:21 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 13):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
I don't believe Delta wants a Florida hub. They are simply moving Brazil capacity to where it largely originates for it.

I think this is exactly right.

They've been down the Florida hub road before. It's about setting up the foundation for a JV with GOL.

Quoting commavia (Reply 14):
Perhaps. In the context of a JV with GOL, it's not impossible to imagine flights feeding into GRU from MIA in addition to MCO and the hubs.

  

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 19):
Is this plane sitting in BSB all day or is it a plane doing ATL-BSB-MCO and MCO-BSB-ATL?

That's an interesting question. I don't know if they could do that routing with the same airplane but either way, sitting a 757 in BSB all day doesn't cost much.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 20):
Brazilians have been buying up condos and homes in big numbers in Orlando since the late 60's. This Is just Delta fishing where the fish are.

  
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
ipodguy7
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:31 am

Quoting Noise (Reply 21):
Wow, where did you find this? Care to share the link?
Brookings
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:56 am

[quote=Gen2stew,reply=22]
And AA is where? I think I crickets chirping. What a pity.


AA used to do MCO-GRU and discontinued it.
 
n7371f
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:34 am

Orlando is Brazil north. Has been for sometime. They love to visit and spend $. Surprised DL didn't see this until the Brazilian airlines did. Very reactionary.
 
USAirALB
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:30 am

Not surprising. When US flew CLT-GRU/GIG, more than half of the aircraft was filled with Disney "princesses" and their families returning home from MCO.
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nicode
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:18 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 24):
I don't know if they could do that routing with the same airplane but either way, sitting a 757 in BSB all day doesn't cost much.

Why not trying MCO-BSB-GIG ?
 
mark2fly1034
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:27 am

Who knew Kaká would have such a big impact here in central Florida lol. Anytime I make the drive over to Orlando its either Brazilians or Korean/Japanese that I see.
 
airbazar
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:51 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 2):
I suspect it's due to aircraft limitations. The 757 can't do MCO-GIG and they probably determined that the 767 would be too much capacity.

The market is big enough for a 767. Also, if a 752 can fly TXL-EWR, it ought to be able to fly MCO-GIG where it's not battling the kind of winds that often exist on the TATL routes.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
I don't believe Delta wants a Florida hub. They are simply moving Brazil capacity to where it largely originates for it.

  

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 20):
This Is just Delta fishing where the fish are.

  
 
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dabpit
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:01 pm

The battle is only beginning for the MCO - Brazil market. There is a possibility for AD to start GIG. The only issue with adding all of these international flights is that MCO is running out of international arrival gates so the airlines will have to start changing flight times. With an 0500 arrival from BSB the next flight will not arrive until 0800 from an international destination so smart move on DL part.
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mcogator
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting n7371f (Reply 27):

Orlando is Brazil north. Has been for sometime. They love to visit and spend $. Surprised DL didn't see this until the Brazilian airlines did. Very reactionary.

Not only visiting, they live here too. Case in point, my gym in Winter Garden seems to be around 10% Brazilian when I go after work. Last night while having a birthday dinner with my girlfriend the table of 12 next to us were all speaking Portuguese. At the bar we went to afterwards our neighbors were all Brazilian. Heck, the guy who lives in my neighborhood that has 2 Lamborghini Aventadors is Brazilian, after I did a little neighborly snooping because each one costs about the same as the average house in my neighborhood. The pool cleaner is from Brazil. The monthly maid service is done by Brazilians...etc etc

Quoting peanuts (Reply 10):
So who do legacies need more...front of the plane or the back? Obviously it needs both.
They know their own traffic. They know who goes to MCO.

There is a large contingent of wealthy people from Brazil who spend a large amount of their time here in their expensive, second homes. I'm sure they can fill the front of the plane.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
Over the next 24 months we'll probably see a lot of MCO domestic adds to non-hubs just to feed these flights against a very large LCC incumbent. This story sounds oddly similar to the one we're already hearing.
DL did just add MIA, CLE, and SEA.

Quoting dabpit (Reply 32):
The battle is only beginning for the MCO - Brazil market. There is a possibility for AD to start GIG. The only issue with adding all of these international flights is that MCO is running out of international arrival gates so the airlines will have to start changing flight times. With an 0500 arrival from BSB the next flight will not arrive until 0800 from an international destination so smart move on DL part.

The funny part is that DL, along with WN, were the ones fighting the new international terminal. Unless something drastic changes, they are going to need it sooner than later.

[Edited 2015-06-19 08:25:16]
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dabpit
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 33):
The funny part is that DL, along with WN, were the ones fighting the new international terminal. Unless something drastic changes, they are going to need it sooner than later.

They need it rather soon and that is partly why GOAA is trying to fast track the new terminal.
Carpe Diem
 
atct
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 2):
Interesting........... I'm not sure I see the appeal but clearly someone in route planning does.

Go to Universal Studios / Disney World and start counting the Brazilians.
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MAH4546
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 33):
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
Over the next 24 months we'll probably see a lot of MCO domestic adds to non-hubs just to feed these flights against a very large LCC incumbent. This story sounds oddly similar to the one we're already hearing.
DL did just add MIA, CLE, and SEA.

MIA is to feed the Brazil flights.

SEA is simply adding to the SEA hub.

CLE is a Saturday-only route using an ERJ-175 that would otherwise be parked on Saturdays when frequency on routes like CLE-LGA is reduced. DL does this to other cities to - it flies MIA-CMH/IND/RDU on Saturdays, for example.
a.
 
AF086
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 14):
It will, indeed, be interesting to see if this is in place of, or alongside, ATL-BSB.

Rumor has it that DL will downscale BSB-ATL to 3x weekly. That way, they would keep BSB daily but 4xw to MCO and 3xw to ATL.

Quoting dabpit (Reply 32):
There is a possibility for AD to start GIG.

For that AD would need to reinforce their GIG network. So far they only serve VCP, MEA and CAW nonstop from GIG.

I'd find more likely that DL announces a 3/4x MCOGIG 763 service at some point.

Now the fact is that GIG is the largest Brazilian O&D to MCO without a nonstop connection, by far.
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avi8
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:02 pm

This is coming from someone who is decently ignorant to internal information and so on, but I wonder if Southwest will regret not making MCO and international gateway.
avi8
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 33):

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
Over the next 24 months we'll probably see a lot of MCO domestic adds to non-hubs just to feed these flights against a very large LCC incumbent. This story sounds oddly similar to the one we're already hearing.
DL did just add MIA, CLE, and SEA.

The likes of CLE-MCO or MIA-MCO are pointing towards further expansion plans. Others may disagree, but there's more to this than just pure local O&D to go heads up against TAM, plus planning for future GOL JV.

I expect some competitive response from TAM, especially after they've declared BSB to be their #2 Brazillian hub (after abandoning GIG), and most likely defend it at all costs.

On a side note, I expect AA/JJ to apply for JV immediately upon open skies, but since they have a monopoly on the largest and most crucial market (namely, MIA-GRU), the regulators will force certain amount of concessions.
 
VAM8789
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):
I don't necessarily think so. DL will already have most of the biggest sources of U.S.-Brazil traffic connected to MCO - NYC, MIA, BOS, LAX, etc., not to mention the large amount of O&D traffic that is the whole reason DL would even consider moving some Brazil flights from ATL to MCO in the first place.

Obviously NYC and Miami are large markets to Brazil. I am wondering how much, if any, feed from BOS DL could expect to see on their flights to BSB and GRU?
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 36):

SEA is simply adding to the SEA hub.

So you think MCO-SEA is just to feed TPAC and Alaska, even though there are more important ones like SEA-DFW/IAH/MIA/IAD that aren't linked by their own metal ?

I guess NRT-SEA-MCO type of traffic flow is one way to defend against the weak JPY.

This felt a lot like how the DL RDU experiment of the mid-2000s started in the beginning. Now RDU only has year-round mainline service to 3 DL hubs.
 
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dabpit
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting AF086 (Reply 37):
For that AD would need to reinforce their GIG network. So far they only serve VCP, MEA and CAW nonstop from GIG.

I only know of their large operations at VCP and CNF. GIG is just what has been rumored nothing more. If AD decided to do GIG it would be based on O&D.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 39):
The likes of CLE-MCO or MIA-MCO are pointing towards further expansion plans. Others may disagree, but there's more to this than just pure local O&D to go heads up against TAM, plus planning for future GOL JV.

DL already has crew based in MCO and I believe they have a few aircrafts based at MCO as well. I agree with you in regards to DL growing at MCO. They already have the JV with VS that includes MCO.

Quoting AF086 (Reply 37):
I'd find more likely that DL announces a 3/4x MCOGIG 763 service at some point.

If DL wants to get ahead of JJ and AD then that would be a nice addition.

Is it possible for the 752 to do MCO-GIG?
Carpe Diem
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting dabpit (Reply 42):

I only know of their large operations at VCP and CNF. GIG is just what has been rumored nothing more. If AD decided to do GIG it would be based on O&D.

Although AZUL/AD has weak feed from GIG, they do have a sizable base from the Rio metro (they fly to 10 places out of SDU, which doesn't sound like a lot but considering that JJ has 5 and G3 has 6)
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 15):

Do you have a link to the web site pls?
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mcogator
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting VAM8789 (Reply 40):
Obviously NYC and Miami are large markets to Brazil. I am wondering how much, if any, feed from BOS DL could expect to see on their flights to BSB and GRU?

It times well on the outbound flights, but on the return you are looking at a 6+ hour layover based on the current schedule.

Quoting dabpit (Reply 42):
DL already has crew based in MCO and I believe they have a few aircrafts based at MCO as well. I agree with you in regards to DL growing at MCO. They already have the JV with VS that includes MCO.

Hmm, LGW/MAN/GLA-MCO-GIG/BSB times very well, not so much on the return.
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 45):

Hmm, LGW/MAN/GLA-MCO-GIG/BSB times very well, not so much on the return.

Not that I'm unrealistically expecting GLA-BSB to happen anytime soon (or ever), but via Orlando is a good 42% detour, even though it's a 1-stop solution compared to every existing routing which is 2+ stops.
 
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dabpit
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:40 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 43):
Although AZUL/AD has weak feed from GIG, they do have a sizable base from the Rio metro (they fly to 10 places out of SDU, which doesn't sound like a lot but considering that JJ has 5 and G3 has 6)

I forgot about SDU, that would make sense then. They would more than likely serve Rio from there.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 45):
Hmm, LGW/MAN/GLA-MCO-GIG/BSB times very well, not so much on the return.

Didn't even consider the connecting from the UK to Brazil. Was primarily thinking about domestic connections.
Carpe Diem
 
AF086
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RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:45 pm

Quoting dabpit (Reply 47):
I forgot about SDU, that would make sense then. They would more than likely serve Rio from there.

You mean flying to MCO from SDU? If so it's impossible to do it: SDU's longest runway is only 1320m long, the terminal has no customs among other things:


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jetblue1965
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Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: DL Files For MCO-BSB

Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:03 pm

Quoting dabpit (Reply 47):

You mean flying to MCO from SDU? If so it's impossible to do it: SDU's longest runway is only 1320m long, the terminal has no customs among other things:

Absolutely didn't mean it like that. SDU is 100% domestic with INTL customs so that's completely moot.

I was referring to comments that AD won't launch MCO-GIG because they lack feed there, and my counterargument is that AD's combined SDU+GIG presence mean they have a reasonable customer base from GIG to draw from, and the flight would be not dependent on connections.

Logic dictates that the UA/AD relationship should mean that UA do more at MCO, but given the B6 hub, a rather large WN operation, and a small but brewing DL focus city (not to mention the ULCC galore over at SFB), the opportunity window for UA seems limited.

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