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ROCDLFAN
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UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:32 pm

http://www.fairport-erpost.com/article/20150621/NEWS/150629943

"A commercial plane from Newark, N.J., heading to Rochester International Airport reportedly had a smoke in the bathroom and had to make an emergency landing at the Canandaigua Airport Sunday afternoon, authorities said."

ROC is not far from D38. Any reason they wouldn't just continue based on distance?

The real question however would be how they plan to get the aircraft out.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting ROCDLFAN (Thread starter):
ROC is not far from D38. Any reason they wouldn't just continue based on distance?

ROC is another 20nm away.. at least another 5 minutes. Standard operating procedure for a fire or unknown smoke is to get safely on the ground in the shortest amount of time. no reason to bet on an extra 5 minutes when you have no idea how severe the fire is.

Swissair 111 thought they had time to dump fuel while trying to fight a fire, turns out they didn't.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting ROCDLFAN (Thread starter):
Any reason they wouldn't just continue based on distance?

There's not a whole lot of information here, but can you imagine smoke in your car and you weren't allowed to get out? Smoke, if uncontrollable, is a real good reason to get on the ground. Because you're not getting out until you get the airplane stopped on the ground.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
bdl2stl2pvg
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting ROCDLFAN (Thread starter):
The real question however would be how they plan to get the aircraft out.

Canandaigua appears to have a 5,500' runway, and based upon FlightAware and the photos in the News report, its a CommutAir Dash8-200 So, as long as it can be repaired or is flyable, getting it out of D38 shouldn't be an issue.
 
N197
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:56 pm

D38 has just finished a runway extension to 5,000 feet. Should be no problem to have a Dash 8 depart from there, especially without passengers and baggage/freight. Not sure from the local news photo if it was a 200 or 400 series Dash.
 
COSPN
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:03 pm

Good job get it on the ground anyplace them figure it out later ....
 
USAirALB
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:04 pm

Years ago, I recall an American Eagle Saab 340 enroute to either BOS or JFK from ALB make an emergency landing at 5B2 (Saratoga County Airport) for a similar reason.
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Viscount724
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:20 pm

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 1):
Swissair 111 thought they had time to dump fuel while trying to fight a fire, turns out they didn't.

The official SR111 report says the final outcome would have been the same.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting N197 (Reply 4):
Not sure from the local news photo if it was a 200 or 400 series Dash.

Since Commutair only operates 200/300's, the Q400 would be eliminated

-DiamondFlyer
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ROCDLFAN
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:42 pm

It was a -200 according to UA.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 8):
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:51 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
The official SR111 report says the final outcome would have been the same.

I have know the report concludes that the final outcome would have been the same. But because of that accident, I believe, policy is if there is a fire get on the ground safley ASAP.
 
COSPN
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:06 am

I thought SR 111 requested BOS but kept going north ??
 
maxpower1954
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:00 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 10):
I have know the report concludes that the final outcome would have been the same. But because of that accident, I believe, policy is if there is a fire get on the ground safley ASAP.

It was ALWAYS SOP to get down ASAP in case of inflight fire, going back to DC-3 days at least. Swissair 111 could not have physically descended from the point the fire was known to any airport in time to avoid the accident.
 
penguins
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:47 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 11):
I thought SR 111 requested BOS but kept going north ??

The Captain preferred Boston because he was familiar with the airport, but Halifax was much closer so they shot for that.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:15 pm

Anyone find the atc clip of this or know where it could be? (not sure if it was Boston center or ROC approach) I imagine it would be an interesting listen
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
gregarious119
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:16 pm

5500' has a pretty comfortable margin for landing a DH8B..., no problem on the decision making in that regard. Only thing I may ding them for is going into a field with no control tower (hence less effective emergency comms) and no ARFF on the field.

Considering that the fault was smoke/fire, I think that having ARFF on hand waiting may've been a safer play.

(Fully recognizing that I'm making these observations from the comfort of my air-controlled office on the ground)
 
bdl2stl2pvg
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:16 pm

It was indicated on one of the news reports, by a First Responder/Fire Captain that there was both smoke in the cockpit and the cabin and the pilots had one their oxygen masks and the flight attendant had on a smoke hood, and that the passengers were told to get in the brace position to stay as low as possible due to the smoke. It was also reported that this very same aircraft, N363PH, had a fire and made an emergency landing because of it recently (on June 5th EWR - BDL) due to fire in the cockpit. That incident did not require a diversion, and the fire was extinguished by the crew.
 
BigSaabowski
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 14):
Anyone find the atc clip of this or know where it could be? (not sure if it was Boston center or ROC approach) I imagine it would be an interesting listen
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kroc/KROC-Jun-21-2015-1730Z.mp3

Starts at 26:20.

Also,
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kroc/KROC-Jun-21-2015-1800Z.mp3
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:14 pm

I've never seen an airport code with numbers in it like D38. Guess we ran out of 3-letter identifiers?
Great Lakes, great life.
 
rcair1
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:27 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 12):
Swissair 111 could not have physically descended from the point the fire was known to any airport in time to avoid the accident.

Yes - based on the timeline from when they reported the smoke to when they could have landed, they would not have made it had they gone direct and landed overweight.

However, they did not - they went for fuel dumping to prevent overweight landing. Today - they would have gone direct and accepted the overweight landing. In that timeframe - smoke was 'investigated' more first. An outcome of Swissair 111 was that landing ASAP is a much higher priority even in cases of unconfirmed fires. They can always cancel the diversion if they find the source and are confident they have dealt with it.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 12):
It was ALWAYS SOP to get down ASAP in case of inflight fire, going back to DC-3 days at least

Maybe for in flight fire - but not for smoke. Swissair 111 changed that.
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Luftfahrer
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:44 pm

When I read the title, my first thought was did they divert to gate D38? Then I realised it must be one of those small airports...  
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catiii
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:13 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 19):
However, they did not - they went for fuel dumping to prevent overweight landing.

Not true. From the official report:

3.The pilots made a timely decision to divert to the Halifax International Airport. Based on the limited cues available, they believed that although a diversion was necessary, the threat to the aircraft was not sufficient to warrant the declaration of an emergency or to initiate an emergency descent profile.
4.The flight crew were trained to dump fuel without restrictions and to land the aircraft in an overweight condition in an emergency situation, if required.
5.From any point along the Swissair Flight 111 flight path after the initial odour in the cockpit, the time required to complete an approach and landing to the Halifax International Airport would have exceeded the time available before the fire-related conditions in the aircraft cockpit would have precluded a safe landing.
 
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JBo
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 18):
I've never seen an airport code with numbers in it like D38. Guess we ran out of 3-letter identifiers?

Most small general aviation airfields that don't have commercial traffic and/or ATC and/or ASOS/AWOS stations have alphanumeric airport codes. All you have to do is pull up an Airnav search for airfields in your state to see how many have numbers in the code.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting gregarious119 (Reply 15):
Considering that the fault was smoke/fire, I think that having ARFF on hand waiting may've been a safer play.

We don't know all the details, but getting on the ground ASAP is the smarter move. Protecting the lives of the passengers and crews - i.e., getting them off the plane - is more important than minimizing damage to the aircraft. In a situation like this, you just don't know how long you have until the situation becomes mortal and a few minutes may make a huge difference.

Kudos to the Commutair Dash 8 crew.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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kearnet
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:10 pm

Here's the field info: http://airnav.com/airport/D38



My hometown field is NH40 (Literally lived next door, less then 500' ( http://airnav.com/airport/NH40 )

and My Best Friend co-owned a restaurant next to 2B3 ( http://airnav.com/airport/2B3 )
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vikkyvik
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:13 pm

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 18):
I've never seen an airport code with numbers in it like D38. Guess we ran out of 3-letter identifiers?

List of New York airports from Airnav:

http://www.airnav.com/airports/us/NY

Note most of them do not have KXXX identifiers.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 1):
Swissair 111 thought they had time to dump fuel while trying to fight a fire, turns out they didn't.

The official SR111 report says the final outcome would have been the same.

Is that right? If they had done an emergency descent straight into Halifax, you are saying they wouldn't have made it?

SW111 first wanted to go back to BOS; then they stayed high to put away plates and stuff from dinner; then he was flying around dumping fuel. They wasted a lot of time. I'm not clear they couldn't' have gotten on the ground if they'd expedited.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 11):
I thought SR 111 requested BOS but kept going north ??
Quoting penguins (Reply 13):
The Captain preferred Boston because he was familiar with the airport, but Halifax was much closer so they shot for that.

The Captain first wanted to go back to BOS, but the ATC control suggested Halifax. The Captain finally agreed.
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 26):
Is that right?

It is.
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:40 pm

Getting off of D38 should be no problem for a Dash-8. They routinely get into and out of Hilton Head which is less than 4500 feet.
 
N197
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:18 pm

If this Dash 8-200 rolls more than 2500 feet before airborne, I would be surprised. 4350 horsepower total, empty A/C with whatever fuel it carried from Newark, a downhill runway and a west wind. Should be at 1500 feet by the end of the runway I think!
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: UAX 4770 Diverts To D38 Due To Smoke

Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:30 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 21):
4.The flight crew were trained to dump fuel without restrictions and to land the aircraft in an overweight condition in an emergency situation, if required.

if you read rcair1 he agreed that SR111 was doomed. But he mentioned in todays environment, and because of SR111, smoke has been made an emergency requiring an immediate landing.

TSB report on SR111, excerpts.

Quote:

2.20.2 Earliest Possible Landing Time
Theoretical calculations show that if an emergency descent had been started from the optimum starting point at 0114:18, the earliest possible landing time would have been 0127. This landing time would only have been possible if there had been no technical malfunctions or adverse cockpit environmental conditions inhibiting the ability of the pilots to navigate and configure the aircraft to obtain its optimum performance capabilities. Any deviation from these “ideal” conditions would result in a later landing time because either the aircraft would require extra manoeuvring off the direct track to the airport, or the aircraft would reach the airport with too much altitude or airspeed to land.

2.20.3 Effect of Fire-Related Failures on Landing
At 0124:09, nearly three minutes before the earliest possible landing time, the aircraft had started to experience an increasingly rapid succession of systems-related failures. The pilots declared an emergency at 0124:42, slightly more than two minutes before the theoretical earliest possible landing time. Several additional systems-related failures, including the loss of the first officer’s DUs and communications with ATS, occurred one minute later (0125:42), just prior to the stoppage of the flight recorders.

By the time the recorders stopped, the cockpit environment was rapidly deteriorating. The fire was invading the cockpit from the overhead ceiling area. Just before the recorders stopped, the pilots indicated that they needed to land immediately; however, they apparently lost their ability to navigate, as they did not steer the aircraft toward the airport. At some point within the last five minutes, the aircraft’s slats became unserviceable. Based on heat damage to wires and associated CBs, it is also possible that the auto ground spoilers, auto-brakes, and anti-skid braking system would have become inoperative before the aircraft could have landed. Under such conditions, it would have been impossible to stop the aircraft on the available runway even if it could have landed.

Based on these factors, it is evident that even if the pilots had attempted a minimum-time emergency diversion starting at 0114:18, it would have been impossible for the pilots to continue maintaining control of the aircraft for the amount of time necessary to reach the airport and complete a safe landing.

2.20.4 Theoretical Emergency Descent Calculations
By coincidence, the time at which an emergency descent would have needed to begin to achieve the optimum theoretical emergency descent profile to land at the Halifax International Airport coincided with the actual time of the Pan Pan radio transmission.

Conclusion from Report
6. Neither the Swissair nor Boeing Smoke/Fumes of Unknown Origin Checklist emphasized the need to immediately start preparations for a landing by including this consideration at the beginning of the checklist. Including this item at the end of the checklist de-emphasizes the importance of anticipating that any unknown smoke condition in an aircraft can worsen rapidly.

Policies changed because of SR111, same as the policies changing because of AA11 or DL191. The new policies may not have prevented that particular accident from occurring due to time and space- but they should prevent similar incidents that occur in areas where it is possible to recover. If SR111 was operated today, they would have flown directly to Halifax and not attempted to dump fuel. It wouldn't have saved that airplane, but it may save the next one.

[Edited 2015-06-22 15:58:33]

[Edited 2015-06-22 16:03:01] edited to add quotes form TSB report

[Edited 2015-06-22 16:04:27]

[Edited 2015-06-22 16:06:47]

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