Quoting mariner (Reply 38): Nelson-Palmerston North

As a Nelsonian studying in Palmy - I REALLY hope this service sticks long enough for me to use it at least once!

Quoting keen2fly (Reply 43): Wow, Jetstar attacks another section that NZ has let slip in the past few years:

Great news! I used to fly QF New Zealand on domestic flights because they offered good airpoints on all flights and fares. Great JQ does that now as well - I had booked JQ on domestic flights so my QF points won't expire, and had to pay extra to get the QF miles. I start liking JQ, haha!

Quoting zkeoj (Reply 51):

I did too before I was old enough to remember, my dear old grandfather was one of the directors in QF New Zealand's dying days. It does create a real alternative to using NZ airpoints now, as that's the primary reason I fly NZ or star alliance partners.

Quoting zkeoj (Reply 51): I had booked JQ on domestic flights so my QF points won't expire, and had to pay extra to get the QF miles. I start liking JQ, haha!

This is true. I will consider the same now too. Do they have a domestic lounge though?? I like breakfast because AKL airport is so expensive for food.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 42): Out of Ewan and Inglis, think I trust Inglis more since both of his airlines have been operating longer and he has a bigger and better reputation then Ewan

Robert followed the rules a bit more about taking passengers money but he is still not a pleasant person. Owes former staff and other unsecured creditors plenty from his last venture.

MRC Aviation indicates that ZK-NGG has left the country. The fact that the airline now only operates two 737s makes it much easier to log the entire fleet.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 3): Typical, I walk out the door at work at 2pm and 40min later all the flights are grounded...

Isn't it a good thing if something like happens when you aren't at work, so you don't have to deal with the mess that presumably ensues?

Quoting zkncj (Reply 4): Could have this afternoons mess been avoided, if Airways NZ required commercial aircraft within there airspace to have ADB-S fitted?

In that case, couldn't the controllers just jump on FlightRadar24 (or flightaware etc) and start directing traffic from there?   

Quoting PA515 (Reply 25): Like watching Colin Craig.

  

Quoting zkncj (Reply 37): Yet another regional startup, again by an failed previous airline operator.

Wow, so within a week, that's three new companies confirming that they are starting operators. What's next, I wonder? Maybe that wellington outfit that has been proposing to fly a 737-700 trans-Tasman?

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 28): Shh, I want to fly on a Saab in NZ

  

Quoting gasman (Reply 40): Eighteen months.

That's awfully generous of you. Although I wish them the best, I can't really see either of the two small operators lasting for more than two months. Maybe three. Jetstar is bigger and has deeper pockets, so I'll give them a year before they retreat.

Quoting keen2fly (Reply 43): Wow, Jetstar attacks another section that NZ has let slip in the past few years:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 44): Jetstar to offer QF FF points in all fare classes

This is good, though given events such as the debacle of all those passengers of theirs being stranded last week, I still don't see them being particularly attractive to business passengers. Hopefully this will cause Air New Zealand to start to be a bit more generous with airpoints, domestically.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 48): NZ10 turns back to Auckland again - due to aircarft fault.

I'm starting to worry about the reliability of those 767s. These events on flights out to the Pacific are getting quite common and that's in addition to occasional issues when flying to Sydney and Brisbane.

Quoting mariner (Reply 38): New airline Originair set to go Nelson skies will become more crowded as a sixth airline, Originair, is set to take off. Originair - established by Robert Inglis who founded Air Nelson then ran Origin Pacific Airways which collapsed in 2006 - will fly Nelson-Wellington and Nelson-Palmerston North."

With Originair's fares starting at $129 for the NSN-WLG sector and Soundsair having a $120 flat fare (even the day of) AND having to compete against Airnz I don't see the WLG service being very successful. Just my   

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 53): Do they have a domestic lounge though?? I like breakfast because AKL airport is so expensive for food.

Nope all gone:

AKL - made way for an Air NZ gate lounge, and walkway into Jetstar.
WLG - Now office space
CHC - flattened

Quoting zkncj (Reply 32): Maybe he should put an bus on his cappex rather than, any ground equipment in ZQN.

Maybe it can double up and do both 

Quoting zkeoj (Reply 51): Great news! I used to fly QF New Zealand on domestic flights because they offered good airpoints on all flights and fares. Great JQ does that now as well - I had booked JQ on domestic flights so my QF points won't expire, and had to pay extra to get the QF miles. I start liking JQ, haha!

Only if they have $1 fares!

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 53): This is true. I will consider the same now too. Do they have a domestic lounge though?? I like breakfast because AKL airport is so expensive for food.

No and they aren't going to. The QF lounges were still open for the first few months of JQ operations.. Now they're pay per use airport operated lounges (at least the AKL one is.. No idea what happened to the CHC one).

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 58): No and they aren't going to. The QF lounges were still open for the first few months of JQ operations.. Now they're pay per use airport operated lounges (at least the AKL one is.. No idea what happened to the CHC one).

The Auckland one closed a couple years ago, it's now partly gate 28/29 (used by NZ), and access to Gate 20/21 from the main NZ area.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 59):

Guess they didn't get any patronage from JQ flyers haha. No surprises really.

Quoting zkeoj (Reply 45): Also looking for a Metro flight - CV to WHK is probably the best bet...

And add the CV580 on the same return trip!

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 55): Quoting zkncj (Reply 37): Yet another regional startup, again by an failed previous airline operator. Wow, so within a week, that's three new companies confirming that they are starting operators. What's next, I wonder? Maybe that wellington outfit that has been proposing to fly a 737-700 trans-Tasman?

Jumpjet?

WIAL have got photos on their facebook page of todays first NAN-WLG FJ service. Aircraft parked at gate 21, so was in full view of the main terminal waiting area

Interesting overview look at the JQ assault on the New Zealand provincial domestic market in FlightGlobal by Glen Waldron in Singapore... particularly the banking analyst's look at the value proposition of the move and the damage it could cause to NZ.

Quote: ...a Credit Suisse research report that said the entry of a low-cost rival could knock NZ$50 million ($46 million) off Air NZ’s revenue. In its fiscal year to 30 June 2014, Air NZ enjoyed operating revenue of NZ$4.7 billion on the back of a 4.6% rise in passenger revenue to NZ$3.9 billion. The carrier has also enjoyed strong profitability in recent years, and good yields. On paper, Air NZ is in an extremely strong position to deal with Jetstar. With a net cash position of NZ$1.3 billion at the end of 2014, money is not a problem. Moreover, it enjoys immensely greater scale in terms of its turboprop fleet. It's dominance of New Zealand's domestic market is all but absolute.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...he-air-new-zealand-citadel-413975/

Regards
MH

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 63):

I have to say, I agree with the thrust of the article. NZ's domestic business was the arm that *didn't* piss me off. Unfortunately I don't use it much (are there places south of the Bombay Hills anyway??  ) but when I do, I feel like I'm getting a slick product. Even in the regions, I never get the impression fares are that much higher than they would be if competition existed. Small aircraft are costly to operate.

Popcorn again I guess.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 62): WIAL have got photos on their facebook page of todays first NAN-WLG FJ service. Aircraft parked at gate 21, so was in full view of the main terminal waiting area

I just happened to glance up from my living room as the flight came in... great looking plane in the FJ livery, and a great alternative for getting to LAX for Wellingtonions.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...ng-737400-as-online-shopping-grows

Air Freight to replace there CV580, with 734s in an joint venture with AirWork.

That leaves Air Chathams as the last CV580 operator in NZ, could we see them order an replacement.

I wonder who "FriendlyFlyer" is on the comments of this story, brushing of the negative comments about Origin. I would have thought they were valid comments and simply saying, let it go, rather trivialises the valid issues people may have about using a service run by someone whose last venture went belly up..

Story.

Quoting flyjetstar (Reply 67):

Your link isn't working, http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/n...39/New-airline-Originair-set-to-go

Quoting zkncj (Reply 66):

Will be sad to see the CV's and F27s leave but nice to see a new (actually returning model) B737 type flying our skies.

Wish the F27s were flying passenger routes here

Quoting 777ER (Reply 61): Jumpjet?

That's the one.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 66): Air Freight to replace there CV580, with 734s in an joint venture with AirWork.

The article didn't mention as such, but there will be 3 737-400s. Like ZK-TLA, the 'new' ones will have an interesting, hybrid semi-glass cockpit setup.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 66): That leaves Air Chathams as the last CV580 operator in NZ, could we see them order an replacement.

I hope the remaining Convairs will be around for as long as possible. So old that they're pieces of history. ZK-CIB first flew all the way back in 1953.....and to think that in my previous post here, I was moaning about the 'old', 1997 build 767s.  

Quoting 777ER (Reply 68): Will be sad to see the CV's and F27s leave but nice to see a new (actually returning model) B737 type flying our skies.

Will be nice for Palmerston North to get jet services back....even if they are freighters and (usually) at night.

Wonder if Air NZ will bring forward the ATR services on NSN-WLG effective from 02 May 2016.

PA515

With all this regional expansion happening at the moment, how is the likes to NSN going to handle all of these regional flights?

NSN is already pretty packed out with Mount Cook/Air Nelson, then you're already got Air2Three and Sounds air. Once Orgin Air and possible Jetstar start, isnt that terminal going to be over crowded?

Quoting zkncj (Reply 71):

"Welcoming the additional airlines meant a terminal upgrade was becoming more pertinent, said Evans.

"At the moment we are very constrained so we will have to do something in the short term to accommodate [the foot traffic]," he said.

A short term development plan, including a car park upgrade and additional counters within the terminal, was in place which would roll out over the next six to 12 months.

"We will be geared up and ready [for additional airlines], It will be a tight time frame but that's okay," he said.

A long term development plan was also in the works, but Evans said there were no definite plans on whether the existing terminal would be expanded or whether an entirely new terminal would be built."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/6...lson-bid-to-lure-jetstar-to-region

Quoting 777ER (Reply 72):

Would be good to have a new terminal. NSN terminal is pretty dated tbh. They need something more modern and spacious (like HLZ maybe just a bit smaller)

Quote: A short term development plan, including a car park upgrade and additional counters within the terminal, was in place which would roll out over the next six to 12 months.

Hard to think we're they could fit extra counters within the terminal at NSN, seem to remember that NZ takes up the entire check-in space.

What will be most interesting is how they are going to increase the access to gates, at the moment there is only 4 hard stands that are an short-walk from the Terminal. It's already not uncommon for NZ to have 5x ATRs/Q300s all on the ground at once in NSN.

If anything hopefully it pushes NZ to upgrade the NSN Koru Club allot sooner than planned, that little box is awful.

[Edited 2015-06-26 20:36:38]

Quoting zkncj (Reply 74): It's already not uncommon for NZ to have 5x ATRs/Q300s all on the ground at once in NSN.

Wow that would be a cool picture, if anyone has one. I've only been there on a lone D83. Can't imagine 5 large turboprops on that ramp space. Cool.

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 69): Will be nice for Palmerston North to get jet services back....even if they are freighters and (usually) at night.

Out of interest, why PMR? Is that some kind of distribution hub for NZ Post?

I'm not a fan of the 734 - stumpy engines, awkward length, in my opinion - but I hope they paint it in a NZ Post based livery. The logo is very attractive and recognisable and a splash of red and white would look good, I think.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 75): Wow that would be a cool picture, if anyone has one. I've only been there on a lone D83. Can't imagine 5 large turboprops on that ramp space. Cool.

Around early evening it tends to happen, with an AKL/CHC/WLG flight all around the same time. Plus an couple coming in for the night etc.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 75): Out of interest, why PMR? Is that some kind of distribution hub for NZ Post?

WLG closed at Midnight for Domestic Traffic, not really useful for an overnight freight operator.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 76): WLG closed at Midnight for Domestic Traffic, not really useful for an overnight freight operator.

Wow. How restrictive. Not even an allowance for freighters? How very Sydney.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 77): Wow. How restrictive. Not even an allowance for freighters? How very Sydney.

Not sure about freighters, there is an allowance that lets Internationals in up till 1am i think?

Inaway its understand when you see how close the houses are, WLG really needs an new airport away from the City and Houses.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 78): Inaway its understand when you see how close the houses are, WLG really needs an new airport away from the City and Houses.

Agreed. But with PMR really just up the ever improving road network (will Transmission Gully help?) I guess you'd ask why bother investing in a shift of WLG just to remove restrictions.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 78): Inaway its understand when you see how close the houses are, WLG really needs an new airport away from the City and Houses

Now there I must disagree.

I think having an international airport so close to the CBD is one of Wellington's major assets. No one has brought a house near WLG in the last sixty years without being aware there is a major commercial airport nearby. And aircraft have got a lot quieter since then. Now, granted that doesn't give the airport and airlines carte blanche to be as noisy as they please; but it's a bit of a stretch for the residents to get too precious about airport noise.

A new airport would cost billions, even developing Paraparaumu wouldn't be cheap - and a whole lot less convenient.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 77): Quoting zkncj (Reply 76): WLG closed at Midnight for Domestic Traffic, not really useful for an overnight freight operator. Wow. How restrictive. Not even an allowance for freighters? How very Sydney.

IIRC WLG domestic flights can go till 11pm with internationals allowed till 1am. Can't see why all flights can't land/depart till 1am to be honest as it would enable some freighter operations.

The freighters currently are old turbo-props and the CV's/F27s aren't as quiet as the modern props used today, but with B734s coming, the noise will reduce slightly.

Quoting gasman (Reply 80): I think having an international airport so close to the CBD is one of Wellington's major assets. No one has brought a house near WLG in the last sixty years without being aware there is a major commercial airport nearby. And aircraft have got a lot quieter since then. Now, granted that doesn't give the airport and airlines carte blanche to be as noisy as they please; but it's a bit of a stretch for the residents to get too precious about airport noise.

While aircraft have got quieter, over the past 20 years there has been an major increase in aircraft traffic.

The current airport grounds are extremely limited with expansion options, there is no room for WLG to build any major facilities.

Auckland and Christchurch are both around an 20minute drive from the CIty, which hasn't stopped people from using them.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 82): While aircraft have got quieter, over the past 20 years there has been an major increase in aircraft traffic.

Has there actually - at WLG? It's always been an extremely busy airport.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 82): The current airport grounds are extremely limited with expansion options, there is no room for WLG to build any major facilities.

There is some room, particularly on the western side. But yes, WLG is never going to become LAX.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 82): Auckland and Christchurch are both around an 20minute drive from the CIty, which hasn't stopped people from using them.

CHC a lot less than 20 minutes, and at both CHC and AKL it's a relatively easy commute (although at AKL there's always talk of building a rail service to make it faster). Anywhere else you put an airport in the Wellington region - PPQ for instance - is always going to be a pig to get to. A lot more than 20 minutes, and a major increase in inconvenience over the current situation.

They just need to extend the runway at WLG to the south........ I wish someone would have the balls to do it.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 82): Auckland and Christchurch are both around an 20minute drive from the CIty, which hasn't stopped people from using them.

When was the last time you drove to Auckland Airport from the city in 20 minutes?! Living in the city as I do, my experience is that it's a 30 min drive minimum, and even then that's well outside peak traffic hours . . .

Unless, of course, you ignore the speed limits.

Quoting gasman (Reply 83):

There's also something about WLG's major role being as domestic hub which for me, makes the proximity to the city (and the suburbs!) all the more relevant.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 84): When was the last time you drove to Auckland Airport from the city in 20 minutes?

Exactly. 20min will get you to Onehunga/Penrose/Botany.

Quoting gasman (Reply 80): Now there I must disagree.

I agree with you about WLG.

Quoting gasman (Reply 83): although at AKL there's always talk of building a rail service to make it faster

There have been plans for ages, the rail services are just waiting for the nod to go ahead with it (It leads on from Onehunga). It's just AIAL company that are blocking it due to parking fees they charge

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 84): When was the last time you drove to Auckland Airport from the city in 20 minutes?! Living in the city as I do, my experience is that it's a 30 min drive minimum, and even then that's well outside peak traffic hours . . .

20 minutes from out City is do-able off peak, I do it all the time from Mount Eden. You just need to know you route, and take the back road that avoid most of the traffic lights etc.

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 87): There have been plans for ages, the rail services are just waiting for the nod to go ahead with it (It leads on from Onehunga). It's just AIAL company that are blocking it due to parking fees they charge

It wont happen for a least 20 years, AT is struggling to afford the CBD rail-loop so find it hard that they would find any spare cash to finish the airport rail link.

Quoting gasman (Reply 83): Quoting zkncj (Reply 82): The current airport grounds are extremely limited with expansion options, there is no room for WLG to build any major facilities. There is some room, particularly on the western side

Would be even more room if the shopping area hadn't been built

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 84): Unless, of course, you ignore the speed limits.

Definitely agree. There are certain times you can do it.

And on '7 Days' this week in reference to the Airways New Zealand radar fault:

Quote: There haven't been so many routes cancelled since Gerry Brownlee joined Tinder

PA515

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 87): There have been plans for ages, the rail services are just waiting for the nod to go ahead with it (It leads on from Onehunga). It's just AIAL company that are blocking it due to parking fees they charge

This is very wide of the mark. There are a whole bunch of factors in play, but blockage by AIAL is not one of them (any more).

Rail to the airport is not in the current Regional Land Transport Plan (the 10-year plan that has just recently been undergoing consultation), nor the Regional Passenger Transport Plan (also a ten-year plan, currently awaiting approval). It is expected to be constructed in the next ten years after 2025 - that is, as others have noted, after the City Rail Link (CRL) is completed (currently expected to be some time between 2023 and 2025, depending on whether central government blinks and allows a start before 2020. Note that the CRL "enabling works" which are due to start this year (first step to relocate a water main in Albert St, then in the next couple of years to build the cut-and-cover section of the CRL as far as Wyndham St) MUST be built now because the demolition of the Downtown Shopping Centre and the construction of a new high-rise there will compromise the CRL unless it is incorporated within the development. However, these works are being funded entirely by Auckland Council, as central Government flatly refuses to contribute, even though it in theory will pay for half the next stage. Hence a significant component of the rates rise that's just been approved.

There is insufficient capacity in the network to add any new services until the CRL is constructed, so the Airport Rail Link cannot in any event be built before the CRL is complete. As noted, though, the deep tunnelled section of the CRL requires central government to pony up 50% of the funds, and their deep antipathy toward anything on rails means that it's by no means a foregone conclusion, current promises notwithstanding.

There's a new factor in the equation, however, arising from current initiatives by Auckland Transport to develop a light rail network. The first line of this network will be Wynyard-Britomart-Dominion Rd on current plans, and AT is studying the possibility of extending it to the Airport as an alternative to extending the Onehunga Line. That will unlikely bring forward the time frame, though the kind of creative funding mechanisms being considered (possibly a BOOT) will mean that no central government contribution may be required.

Having light rail to the airport via Dominion Rd would clearly be a compromise, as the journey would be slower along Dominion Rd than via the existing rail network, but the costs of getting to the Airport would be very significantly cheaper by light rail than by heavy rail. Don't think that the light rail would get held up constantly by other traffic, though, because the plan is to have a completely segregated line in the middle of the road (no vehicles turning across the rail except at major intersections) and the line would form part of the "Rapid Transit Network" that currently includes the rail lines and the Northern Busway.

Ironically, the decision as to whether the Airport line is light- or heavy-rail may be taken sooner than we realise, because the currently-proposed revamp of the Kirkbride Rd-SH20A intersection by NZTA will need to be future-proofed for one of these options. That decision, once made, though will not in itself advance the timetable for rail to the Airport.

The biggest obstacle to new rail services to anywhere is central government's dogged and demonstrably incorrect belief that Auckland's transport problems can be fixed using buses alone. Anyone who stands on Symonds St at 8am will realise that with buses currently nose-to-tail at peak hours, it's completely unrealistic to expect AT to deliver the doubling of PT patronage that Auckland Council requires of it without serious investment in rail technology of some sort, as there will be serious bus congestion otherwise which will put us in a worse situation than we are in today.

[Edited 2015-06-27 22:30:42]

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 91): This is very wide of the mark. There are a whole bunch of factors in play

Most of which stem from the reluctance of New Zealand to always select the "cheapest" option instead of what is the best option and then taking an eternity to build anything so that it becomes both redundant and non-expandable the moment is is built.

Quoting gasman (Reply 83): (although at AKL there's always talk of building a rail service to make it faster).

Rail will never be faster (apart from in absolute peak times possibly) and don't forget rail does not reach about 90% of the population so it will never have critical mass in my lifetime to make it viable. Hey, don't get me wrong I love rail and take the train from SYD airport to our office in Pitt St every few weeks, over there it is faster (and cheaper at $17.90 v circa $45 in a taxi) as there rail system is direct and hence faster than the "via Onehunga" option. I live 1200 metres from Orakei station but would you think I would ever walk 15 minutes with bags, take the train to Britomart, change and sit another 40 mins to the airport when I can drive (at 5.30am) in 25 mins? We already have the service replicating this and it is called the Airbus Link (or something like that) which delivers the same service at a cheaper price....

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 91):

I stand corrected, and very well written

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 92): Most of which stem from the reluctance of New Zealand to always select the "cheapest" option instead of what is the best option and then taking an eternity to build anything so that it becomes both redundant and non-expandable the moment is is built.

It's how the country rolls. no sense of short term loss for long term gain

As an addendum to my previous post, I think that Auckland Council and Auckland Transport are doing the concept of an Airport rail link (whether heavy- or light-rail) a disservice by referring to it as the "Airport" rail line. In practice, it will attract a significant number of passengers from the couple of stops proposed in Mangere as it does air passengers. Calling it the "Airport" line makes it a much harder sell politically and raises emotions that might not come into play if you were discussing an extension of the rail network to take in a couple of additional suburbs. How about the "South-Western Line" instead?

The other consideration is that this is not just about air passengers. The airport and surrounding support zone are one of the largest concentrations of employment in the Auckland region - I believe something like 20,000 jobs being involved (don't quote me on the number!). Objectively, any location that draws 20,000 people to work from around the entire region to a reasonably concentrated space has to be a serious candidate for an extension to the Rapid Transit Network.

Viewed in the light of being a public transport connection for commuters (both to the airport from the rest of the region and from Mangere to the rest of the region) the possibility that the eventual connection might be light rail via Dominion Rd, connecting to the heavy rail network at Onehunga becomes much less problematic.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 77): Wow. How restrictive. Not even an allowance for freighters?

Freighters do go in and out during the night, just turboprops currrently and it would really piss me off if the new 734 service started too, which I'm sure it won't.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 78): there is an allowance that lets Internationals in up till 1am i think?

Just for landing and this is a buffer zone for as it's desirable before midnight.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 78): WLG really needs an new airport away from the City and Houses.

The airport's proximity to the city is one of Wellington's assets, we love it. I live on the hills overlooking the north end of the runway and can assure you the noise level from the jet aircraft is now considerably more quiet than when we bought the house 5-years ago - the last of the NZ 733's makes the occasional racket. And air traffic is not noticably different, in fact probably less busy given the increased size of craft used on trunk and regional routes now. The curfew ensures no jets arrive/depart during the night which would wake residents. And most of us that live by/near/around the airport enjoy the aviation traffic flow or at least are realistic about the fact we live by a major airport. Also, with marine areas at each end of the runway, any total engine-outs due to birdstrike can be best handled over this medium.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 79): But with PMR really just up the ever improving road network

Assume you mean PPQ Paraparaumu, rather than PMR Palmerston North?! And regardless of how good the road gets, there's no way I want to spend 40-minutes on it versus 10 off-peak, and an 80-minutes versus 30 during peak times.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 82): there is no room for WLG to build any major facilities.

What major facilities would you have built that aren't already there? There will never be a maintenance base or any major service hub.





[Edited 2015-06-28 13:26:19]