New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 161

American 767 · Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:52 pm

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New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 160 (by American 767 Jun 10 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Ben Soriano

CHCalfonzo · Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:29 am

New CI service to CHC via MEL has been announced! Great to see more competition on this route.

CI057 TPE2330 – 1150+1MEL1310+1 – 1830+1CHC 333 257
CI058 CHC1950 – 2140MEL2310 – 0535+1TPE 333 146

Along with the already announced SYD-CHC service

CI055 TPE2300 – 1120+1SYD1240+1 – 1745+1CHC 333 146
CI056 CHC1915 – 2030SYD2210 – 0430+1TPE 333 257

CHC will have 6 weekly CI flights, 1 per day except Wednesday.

zkncj · Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:50 am

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/696417...ercial-flights-nationwide--reports

All flights with-in New Zealand currently grounded; radar fault

aerorobnz · Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:09 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 2):
All flights with-in New Zealand currently grounded; radar fault

Typical, I walk out the door at work at 2pm and 40min later all the flights are grounded...

edited...according to the airfield screen I'm looking at from home, NZ725 pushed back at 1607 and TN102 at 1608 and both are under taxi/in taxi queue

[Edited 2015-06-22 21:13:01]

zkncj · Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:12 am

Could have this afternoons mess been avoided, if Airways NZ required commercial aircraft within there airspace to have ADB-S fitted?

Also how come International ex-AKL was effected? isn't AKL in the Oceanic control region?

Gemuser · Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:34 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 2):
All flights with-in New Zealand currently grounded; radar fault

Why couldn't they fall back to non radar procedural control? Capacity would have been reduced of course with a 50nm spacing but better than nothing.

Gemuser

ZaphodHarkonnen · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:49 am

Quoting 'keentofly':
I am not, and haven't been a proponent of the KC390, nor the C-17. I don't see what's wrong with buying the C-130J or even the C-130J-30 if we really need a bigger aircraft than we already have. Tried and tested design, one that we already have experience with, and the re-training costs will be minimal compared to buying a completely different basket-case aircraft.

I'm not saying the others will be terrible aircraft, but as a small nation, we can't afford to gamble unnecessarily when there are perfectly good designs that we already operate available.

The main issue with the C-130J is that it does not give the NZDF the ability to airlift the LAVs without removing their turret. The other big issue is that they will not have the range to go to Antarctica without having a point of no return. The current government is unlikely to like that given the incident a couple years ago where a C130 proceeded past the point of no return and then had to deal with essentially whiteout conditions when landing and just happened to have a senior government minister on board.

So if those become must haves then the C130J is basically out of the running from the start. And the A400M becomes the front runner despite its price and risk.

NZ1 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:26 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 4):

Could have this afternoons mess been avoided, if Airways NZ required commercial aircraft within there airspace to have ADB-S fitted?

Also how come International ex-AKL was effected? isn't AKL in the Oceanic control region?

It's ADS-B, and no, it wouldn't have made any difference. All air traffic within NZ, and over a good chunk of the Pacific & Tasman is controlled by Airways from CHC.

NZ1

aerokiwi · Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting ZaphodHarkonnen (Reply 6):
The current government is unlikely to like that given the incident a couple years ago where a C130 proceeded past the point of no return and then had to deal with essentially whiteout conditions when landing and just happened to have a senior government minister on board.

I keep hearing this story about a "senior government minister". Not denying it's true - and in fact should be pretty easy to identify - but no aircraft purchasing decision will be based on the timid boo-hoos of a cosseted and privileged individual.

Aren't military purchases usually well removed from the politicians anyway, as a simple probity measure? Surely after the LAVs fiasco.

Quoting CHCalfonzo (Reply 1):

New CI service to CHC via MEL has been announced! Great to see more competition on this route.

Excellent!

Wow, radar failures aside, some great news lately on the home front. Not for NZ of course, but that just makes it so much better

By the way, has Air Chathams started their C580 service on AKL-WHK yet? I was under the impression they'd start with Metros.

Kiwirob · Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:51 pm

Quoting ZaphodHarkonnen (Reply 6):
The current government is unlikely to like that given the incident a couple years ago where a C130 proceeded past the point of no return and then had to deal with essentially whiteout conditions when landing and just happened to have a senior government minister on board.

That was with the 757 not C130.

http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015...minima-landing-at-antarctica-base/

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 8):
I keep hearing this story about a "senior government minister".

Foreign Affairs Minister Murray McCully was on board the flight.

777ER · Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:44 pm

Kiwi Regional will be making an announcement this week on routes and the purchase of two Saabs

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...ont-compete-with-jetstar-or-air-nz

777ER · Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 8):
By the way, has Air Chathams started their C580 service on AKL-WHK yet? I was under the impression they'd start with Metros.

Flight started April 26th. Can't find any information on Air Chathams web-site, but from what I've heard/found the CV580 operates to AKL in the morning and returns in the evening with the metro operating from AKL in the morning and returning to AKL in the evening

aerorobnz · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:55 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 11):
Can't find any information on Air Chathams web-site

First arrival from WHK and last departure to WHK are C580. Everything else is Metro.

zkncj · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:07 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 12):
First arrival from WHK and last departure to WHK are C580. Everything else is Metro.

So is there an C580 now based in WHK?

ZaphodHarkonnen · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 8):
I keep hearing this story about a "senior government minister". Not denying it's true - and in fact should be pretty easy to identify - but no aircraft purchasing decision will be based on the timid boo-hoos of a cosseted and privileged individual.

Aren't military purchases usually well removed from the politicians anyway, as a simple probity measure? Surely after the LAVs fiasco.

The government will have a hand in deciding what the requirements are. And for large capital purchases like new planes or ships it's the Ministry of Defence that does the actual purchasing and not the NZDF. So the Minister of Defence will have quite a bit of influence as to what contract is chosen via setting of requirements.

So should a must have requirement be that the aircraft be able to fly to Antarctica with no point of no return then that rules out some aircraft. Though who knows, maybe the C130J could make it if it carries come cargo bay fuel and is payload restricted. It'll be up to the manufacturers to put together a bid that meets the requirements.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
That was with the 757 not C130.

Whoops, my fault. The issue with a point of no return still stands as the 757s also have one.

A330NZ · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:54 pm

KRA Announces their first routes!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...rlines-names-start-date-and-routes

DUD-ZQN - 2x daily (morning return and evening return)
DUD-NSN - 1x daily (outbound mid morning, return afternoon)
NSN-HLZ - 1x daily (midday)

Flights to start on September 27th

777ER · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:02 am

Quoting A330NZ (Reply 15):

Good the see the first routes announced. Sadly KRA won't be using AKL, WLG or CHC if they stick to their motto of not competing with JQ or NZ unless they decide to compete with Sounds Air or Air Chathams on the routes NZ gave up.

aerorobnz · Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:21 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 13):
So is there an C580 now based in WHK?

No. It's based in AKL, but overnights in WHK.

zkncj · Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:31 am

Quoting A330NZ (Reply 15):
DUD-ZQN - 2x daily (morning return and evening return)

Anyone know the flight time between ZQN-DUD? surely its barely worth it. Isn't it just an two hour drive between the two?

Sounds like an very risky operation in winter to me, with just 1x S340b, theres gonna be an few people getting stuck.

keen2fly · Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:41 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 16):

I recollect Palmerston North was a key part of their plans. That's obviously gone now that JQ looks to have put it as a front runner for their service. It's an odd assortment of routes and I just can't see it working for very long, but it looks as if they might just get off the ground.

777ER · Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:53 am

Quoting keen2fly (Reply 19):

From memory Palmy was discussed as an option. Wouldn't mind seeing Kiwi flying to/from PPQ as a way to by pass WLG and NZ/JQ.

Since Kiwi is keen to avoid AKL and flying in competition with NZ/JQ, maybe Kiwi could look at PPQ for its Wellington region flights?

Gasman · Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:57 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 18):
Anyone know the flight time between ZQN-DUD? surely its barely worth it. Isn't it just an two hour drive between the two?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 16):
Sadly KRA won't be using AKL, WLG or CHC if they stick to their motto of not competing with JQ or NZ

Quoting keen2fly (Reply 19):

I recollect Palmerston North was a key part of their plans. That's obviously gone now that JQ looks to have put it as a front runner for their service.

This is all just tragic. KRA is a dead duck, Ewan just doesn't seem to know it yet.

zkncj · Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:11 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 20):
From memory Palmy was discussed as an option. Wouldn't mind seeing Kiwi flying to/from PPQ as a way to by pass WLG and NZ/JQ.

Doesn't NZ already fly PPQ-AKL and PPQ-CHC?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 20):
Since Kiwi is keen to avoid AKL and flying in competition with NZ/JQ,

Maybe they could use Ardmore in Auckland? since they got rejected from the air force base.

Ardmore could make an decent regional airport within the next 10 years, with plenty of development around that area.

Gasman · Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:18 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 22):
Ardmore could make an decent regional airport within the next 10 years, with plenty of development around that area.

It would need a lot of capital investment. A runway resurface, lighting and strip upgrades, and an ATC infrastructure set up. Not to mention a terminal capable of handling scheduled commercial ops.

777ER · Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:31 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 22):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 20):
From memory Palmy was discussed as an option. Wouldn't mind seeing Kiwi flying to/from PPQ as a way to by pass WLG and NZ/JQ.

Doesn't NZ already fly PPQ-AKL and PPQ-CHC?

Yes NZ does, but there are lots of other routes

PA515 · Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:14 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 18):
Anyone know the flight time between ZQN-DUD? surely its barely worth it. Isn't it just an two hour drive between the two?

About a four hour drive. Did it in 1995. Mainland Air gave up the route recently, so slim pickings.

Quoting gasman (Reply 21):
This is all just tragic. KRA is a dead duck, Ewan just doesn't seem to know it yet.

I think so. Like watching Colin Craig.

And KRA will be competing with Air NZ who fly ZQN-NSN via CHC, DUD-NSN via CHC and NSN-HLZ via WLG.

PA515

Sylus · Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:33 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 25):

Although DUD-ZQN is a 4hour drive with tricky winter terrain, I'm doubtful of the demand present on this sector. Perhaps it could work If flown by NZ where connecting traffic could be routed through ZQN eg.trans tasman.

keen2fly · Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:32 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 21):

Yeah, I doubt they're any closer to flying than they were before, they just had to pull a start date from somewhere in order to try remain relevant in the midst of the JQ announcement.

NZ107 · Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:20 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 21):

This is all just tragic. KRA is a dead duck, Ewan just doesn't seem to know it yet.

Shh, I want to fly on a Saab in NZ

I'm more concerned about when in the "late evening" the DUD-ZQN flight would be.. Miss curfew and you're screwed.. Or if low cloud settles when you're already on the ground in ZQN and you can't get out. Then what?

ZKSUJ · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:00 pm

I'm surprised KRO didn't pick up AKL-MRO or anything like that, apparently loads were good on that with the 1900

zkncj · Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 28):
I'm more concerned about when in the "late evening" the DUD-ZQN flight would be.. Miss curfew and you're screwed.. Or if low cloud settles when you're already on the ground in ZQN and you can't get out. Then what?

I'm amusing you can't get RNP for an Saab? and KRA wouldn't have it?

Gasman · Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:14 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 29):
I'm surprised KRO didn't pick up AKL-MRO

AKL-MRO is one of those enigma routes, that for weird reasons no-one seems to want. WAG, for comparative example, is only an hour's easy drive from PMR where aircraft are bigger and flights are slightly cheaper. And WAG-AKL is viable, and survives.

Yet MRO is a ninety minute unpleasant drive from WLG. You'd think the demand for a flight service MRO-AKL would be higher than at least WAG-AKL.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 28):
Shh, I want to fly on a Saab in NZ

I know what you mean. There was a patch in 1992 when I flew WLG-NPE slightly more than I really needed to for the sole purpose of getting Saab rides. There's just something about them........

Quoting zkncj (Reply 30):
I'm amusing you can't get RNP for an Saab?

The last time Ewan ran an airline he didn't put a high priority on paying for things like, oh, I don't know, fuel. I would suspect RNP is quite a way down the list.

zkncj · Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 31):
The last time Ewan ran an airline he didn't put a high priority on paying for things like, oh, I don't know, fuel. I would suspect RNP is quite a way down the list.

Maybe he should put an bus on his cappex rather than, any ground equipment in ZQN.

Any idea what Terminal he plans to use in NSN?

[Edited 2015-06-24 12:40:31]

Gasman · Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:46 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 32):
Maybe he should put an bus on his cappex rather than, any ground equipment in ZQN.

Indeed, Kiwi Regional Coaches.

One thing that occurs to me - from memory the Saab isn't exactly a quiet aircraft (although nowhere near as bad as its contemporary, the Metroliner). Not sure if this would cause any issues with the self appointed Sam Neill Queenstown Kangaroo Court.

mariner · Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 21):
This is all just tragic. KRA is a dead duck, Ewan just doesn't seem to know it yet.

I'm inclined to agree, but he may already know it.

I don't think the timing of the KRA announcement was coincidental - it came just a day or three after the Jetstar announcement and suggests - to me - that he feels threatened by Jetstar.

He's done what he can - announcing routes and start dates - but they don't have certification yet.

I've no idea what things are like down here, but in the US certification can be a very lengthy process and, in the case of California Pacific Airlines, it never happened, despite the airline passing several stages of it successfully.

mariner

Gasman · Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
I'm inclined to agree

Begone, O foul imposter!! What hath thou done with our Mariner???

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
I've no idea what things are like down here, but in the US certification can be a very lengthy process and, in the case of California Pacific Airlines, it never happened, despite the airline passing several stages of it successfully.

Oh I know. Thinking back to my Civil Aviation days.... we're talking nearly 30 years ago now, but things weren't exactly lacking red tape back then, and new players were treated with extreme suspicion. New players *with a history* even more so. So Ewan has to circumnavigate this obstacle course before he starts to go head to head with the NZ/Jetstar behemoths. It just ain't happening.

keen2fly · Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:34 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 35):
New players *with a history* even more so. So Ewan has to circumnavigate this obstacle course before he starts to go head to head with the NZ/Jetstar behemoths. It just ain't happening.

Was thinking the same thing, how on earth does he think he'll be welcomed with open arms by the authorities if he was at the helm of such a failure which included stranding so many passengers? I think he wants his last tilt at the aviation business to try save his reputation, because those who know anything about aviation and business in New Zealand associate him with being a liar and a fraud in the Kiwi Air days, of course with the criminal convictions to back that up.

zkncj · Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:19 am

http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/n...39/new-airline-originair-set-to-go

Yet another regional startup, again by an failed previous airline operator.

mariner · Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:22 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 35):
Begone, O foul imposter!! What hath thou done with our Mariner???

Quoting gasman (Reply 35):
So Ewan has to circumnavigate this obstacle course before he starts to go head to head with the NZ/Jetstar behemoths. It just ain't happening.

I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt, but this present plan doesn't quite make sense to me, even assuming they get certification.

Sounds Air use of even smaller aircraft (and admittedly more frequency) makes more sense to me.

And now comes a new contender, also based in Nelson, OriginAir.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/n...39/New-airline-Originair-set-to-go

"New airline Originair set to go

Nelson skies will become more crowded as a sixth airline, Originair, is set to take off.

Originair - established by Robert Inglis who founded Air Nelson then ran Origin Pacific Airways which collapsed in 2006 - will fly Nelson-Wellington and Nelson-Palmerston North."

What can we do but watch and pass the popcorn round?

mariner

keen2fly · Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
Originair - established by Robert Inglis who founded Air Nelson then ran Origin Pacific Airways which collapsed in 2006 - will fly Nelson-Wellington and Nelson-Palmerston North."

What can we do but watch and pass the popcorn round?

mariner

When I moved to Palmerston North to study, I would never have envisaged the regional aviation industry providing so much entertainment, and with the advent of JQ, competition.

Inglis is a crafty bugger, trying to beat old Wilson to it by announcing the day after, that he's starting a full 17 days before! You almost couldn't make this stuff up! So how long do we give this comedy act?

[Edited 2015-06-24 17:31:19]

Gasman · Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:46 am

Quoting keen2fly (Reply 39):
So how long do we give this comedy act?

Eighteen months.

Originair - if it doesn't fail by itself in that time (highly likely) NZ will simply pay him off.

KRA - During that time, after many prolonged delays, a gushingly positive North & South article and repeated website teasers saying "services starting SOON" a Saab will, with great fanfare, arrive on New Zealand shores. It will sit dormant for six weeks while a few "regulatory loose ends" are being ironed out. Then it will be flown back overseas to its owner, never to be seen again.

Soundsair - will quietly thrive, under the radar.

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
What can we do but watch and pass the popcorn round?

keen2fly · Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 40):
KRA - During that time, after many prolonged delays, a gushingly positive North & South article and repeated website teasers saying "services starting SOON" a Saab will, with great fanfare, arrive on New Zealand shores. It will sit dormant for six weeks while a few "regulatory loose ends" are being ironed out. Then it will be flown back overseas to its owner, never to be seen again.

Seems plausible, I can see Wilson fighting tooth and nail just to get a plane in the KRA livery at all costs. Seems like an NZ emulation of California Pacific, but worse in just about every way.

777ER · Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:06 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 28):
Shh, I want to fly on a Saab in NZ

I really want to have another Saab flight, but don't want to go to Australia to experience one.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 37):

Out of Ewan and Inglis, think I trust Inglis more since both of his airlines have been operating longer and he has a bigger and better reputation then Ewan. Hopefully I can finally add a J31 to my flown list and not just hold a boarding pass for a J31 flight and later board a competitiors aircraft to get to my destination. Would love to see a J41 operating here again.

I wish Origin Air excellent luck this time!

keen2fly · Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:18 am

Wow, Jetstar attacks another section that NZ has let slip in the past few years:

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/new...3&objectid=11470927&ref=NZH_FBpage

777ER · Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:18 am

Jetstar to offer QF FF points in all fare classes

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviat...tstar-flights-20150624-ghwadq.html

zkeoj · Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:41 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 42):
I really want to have another Saab flight, but don't want to go to Australia to experience one.

Same, and I just looked up REX flights, and they are so expensive! My last (and only) Saab 340 flights were in 1990 (CGN-FDH-CGN) on DI !

Has QF stopped the domestic add-on from BNE on the B744 (LAX-BNE-SYD or was it MEL)? I can't find any. Does anybody know if there are any domestic wide body flights left, except for transcons to PER? Or any cool idea for a rare/special flight from BNE? I looked up Alliance, and they do Emerald on Fokkers - that would be cool. Brinabella is no more

Also looking for a Metro flight - CV to WHK is probably the best bet...

Cheerio
micha

Gemuser · Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:03 am

Quoting zkeoj (Reply 45):
Has QF stopped the domestic add-on from BNE on the B744 (LAX-BNE-SYD or was it MEL)?

It was DFW-BNE-SYD and stopped when the A380 was introduced which flies DFW-SYD non stop.

Gemuser

zkeoj · Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:08 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 46):
It was DFW-BNE-SYD and stopped when the A380 was introduced which flies DFW-SYD non stop.

Darn! And thanks for the info, gemuser!

Cheers
micha

zkncj · Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:40 am

NZ10 turns back to Auckland again - due to aircarft fault.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel...olulu-flight-to-return-to-auckland

Unclekoru · Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 42):

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 28):
Shh, I want to fly on a Saab in NZ

I really want to have another Saab flight, but don't want to go to Australia to experience one.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 37):

Out of Ewan and Inglis, think I trust Inglis more since both of his airlines have been operating longer and he has a bigger and better reputation then Ewan. Hopefully I can finally add a J31 to my flown list and not just hold a boarding pass for a J31 flight and later board a competitiors aircraft to get to my destination. Would love to see a J41 operating here again.

I wish Origin Air excellent luck this time!

And with Air Freight/Fieldair providing crew and engineering services behind the scene, he at least starts with a mature operation which will give him a chance at making something of it. I'm not ready to right this one off yet.

Things are getting interesting in regional NZ though.

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