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StrandedAtMKG
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G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:05 am

(This may have been posted before--it sounds familiar--but Search turned up bupkis.)

http://roadwarriorvoices.com/2015/06...-that-barely-pass-safety-standard/


The pilots and union researchers studied a six month period between September 2014 and March 2015 and discovered 65 instances where Allegiant flights were diverted or had to return to the gate for engine or mechanical problems. Adding to the “oh crap” nature of their report, four of those incidents involved the engines shutting down during a flight.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:31 am

Pretty shocking if true...and I wouldn't be surprised if it were. Seems like they're regularly in the news for some potentially serious mechanical problem or a long delay with furious passengers. If their management was smart (and I'm sure they are) they'd be ditching those MD80's asap. But it's too bad they aren't so smart when it comes to labor relations.
 
ikramerica
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:44 am

So the safety standard isn't safe enough if you meet it? You must exceed safety standards by a wide margin to be safe?

This despite the safety standards already having an additional margin of safety and redundancy in the first place.

Sounds like typical Union garbage to me..,
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:46 am

I'd be surprised if this was entirely true--the FAA is heavily involved in aviation maintenance oversight and instances like those listed are at the very least on the FAA radar.

I have a hard time believing they wouldn't do something--they have at other carriers for less serious offenses.

We also can't blame the MD-80--it's a solid airplane IF it's maintained in top notch condition. I've certainly watched them take long delays but to paint the airline as a safety disaster sounds more like a scare tactic than anything else.
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northwestEWR
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:02 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):

So the safety standard isn't safe enough if you meet it? You must exceed safety standards by a wide margin to be safe?

This despite the safety standards already having an additional margin of safety and redundancy in the first place.

Sounds like typical Union garbage to me..,

        
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
N747PE
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:56 am

Wife flew on them this morning and the flight was early and yes she flew on a Mad Dog
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:23 am

Has allegiant ever really had a true emergency or crash?

They fly older planes, no question about that, but I have never felt any less or more safe than any other flight.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:26 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):
So the safety standard isn't safe enough if you meet it? You must exceed safety standards by a wide margin to be safe?

      

It sounds like their beef is with the FAA if they think that the minimum safety standards aren't stringent enough. As is it, this sounds like nothing more than the usual mudslinging that goes on during protracted labor negotiations. As soon as they have a contract in place all these problem will magically disappear.
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ericm2031
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:46 am

Very vague...a plane can return to the gate for something extremely small that just gets deferred, even a lav light. To say they are unsafe is definitely jumping to conclusions.

Alao, it doesn't seem like an extreme amount for an airline of their size when you consider that some of these cases could have been something small or deferrable that doesn't jeopardize safety.
 
b747400erf
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:11 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):

Sounds like typical Union garbage to me..,

I like how people take months to study something and it can all be thrown out with one simple reading of a news article by well known anti-union posters on anet.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 3):
I'd be surprised if this was entirely true--the FAA is heavily involved in aviation maintenance oversight and instances like those listed are at the very least on the FAA radar.

How many times has the FAA been caught unaware or unwilling to do anything about maintenance issues by airlines? Southwest and Alaska comes to mind.

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=16754

That 2014 story was about events that started in 2007
 
Mir
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:19 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6):
Has allegiant ever really had a true emergency or crash?

Do we have to wait for an airline to have a "true" emergency (whatever that means) or crash before we decide that they're not safe?

-Mir
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wjcandee
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:10 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 9):
How many times has the FAA been caught unaware or unwilling to do anything about maintenance issues by airlines? Southwest and Alaska comes to mind.

Now SOUTHWEST is unsafe? I thought that was a hose job by some attention-seeking inspectors. No?

And you might as well mention American, which was fined for an "unsafe" wire repair that was basically a matter of interpreting some vague words in the American proposed fix, a repair that was basically-identical to the proposed fix at other airlines even if one could say it didn't meet the different American wording on its work cards.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:48 am

Isn't 'barely passed', still a pass? I imagine 4 wheel lugs instead of 5 doesn't make the passing grade.

The standards are such that passing them is 'safe', (for the FAA's standard of safety), and not passing is 'unsafe'. That means 'barely passing' is safe.

I agree. The beef is with the FAA. It's their standards the pilots are having problems with. If FAA safe, isn't safe enough, the industry as a whole needs new standards, not just G4...since all airlines are using the same benchmarks.
What the...?
 
b747400erf
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:11 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 11):

Now SOUTHWEST is unsafe? I thought that was a hose job by some attention-seeking inspectors. No?

I did not say unsafe, I said many airlines escaped FAA regulation for so long. You should try reading my comments.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:17 am

G4 is in union negotiations...

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 8):
Very vague...a plane can return to the gate for something extremely small that just gets deferred, even a lav light. To say they are unsafe is definitely jumping to conclusions.

  

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 12):
The standards are such that passing them is 'safe', (for the FAA's standard of safety), and not passing is 'unsafe'. That means 'barely passing' is safe.

And did they barely pass, or was that merely implied?

If you miss, the FAA fines and fines heavily. No fine=safe.

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nickflightx
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:38 pm

I though this was about the Gulfstream G4 at first.
 
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b727fa
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):
So the safety standard isn't safe enough if you meet it? You must exceed safety standards by a wide margin to be safe?

Like the old saw, "What do you call the guy who graduates last in medical school? Doctor. A pass is a pass.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 7):
As is it, this sounds like nothing more than the usual mudslinging that goes on during protracted labor negotiations.

When both sides don't play nice this happens.

Quoting StrandedAtMKG (Thread starter):
The pilots and union researchers studied a six month period between September 2014 and March 2015 and discovered 65 instances

And yet, CAPT, you keep accepting and signing off on said aircraft. Huh.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
wjcandee
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:53 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 13):
I said many airlines escaped FAA regulation for so long. You should try reading my comments.

At the risk of getting into another pointless troll-debate with you, so you are saying that Southwest "escaped regulation"? It wasn't being properly-regulated? I think the actual take-away was that they were being OVER-regulated by some fame-seeking inspector-jerks. But maybe we're talking about a different occurrance. Did something happen at Southwest that the NTSB pinned on FAA under-regulation? I really am politely asking, because I can't identify what incident(s) you are talking about.
 
Flighty
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:58 pm

Plenty of surgeons who "barely passed" their boards are operating today. Not to mention pilots who barely passed their check rides.

Next?
 
wjcandee
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:11 pm

Allegiant was just subjected to a higher-than-normal amount of review, triggered by the mere existence of labor issues, a normal FAA practice. The FAA found nothing that they acted upon. I think that settles the argument.

And I think that after decades of this crap, people actually resent it when so-called professionals try to scare them for their own selfish ends.

What is scary is the unboundaried, babyish conduct of union members in all transportation modes when they don't get what they want. On the one hand, they laud themselves as professionals, but then some of them drink too much Kool-Aid and then behave like thugs and gangsters.

Maybe the FAA should quadruple the number of check rides. And not the ones done by "inspectors" who don't know the particular aircraft, but ones as demanding as the company itself perfroms on its pilots. That might be fun.

That said, it does concern me that G4's Mad Dog cockpits apparently are a mish-mash of various systems from different manufacturers, of vastly-different eras, of vastly-different capabilities, if I understand their policies. Some of that may be unavoidable, but it does create a human-factors issue of unknown significance. And it also means that one aircraft is going to have a vastly-less-capable weather radar than another, for example. Would it be "more safe" to standardize on, say, the most capable radar as the aircraft are being inducted to the Certificate? Arguably yes.
 
Grummancat
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:28 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 18):
Plenty of surgeons who "barely passed" their boards are operating today. Not to mention pilots who barely passed their check rides.

Next?

  

This sounds like a classic PR war of words to me. I don't think it's worth getting all worked up about.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 19):
That said, it does concern me that G4's Mad Dog cockpits apparently are a mish-mash of various systems from different manufacturers, of vastly-different eras, of vastly-different capabilities, if I understand their policies. Some of that may be unavoidable, but it does create a human-factors issue of unknown significance. And it also means that one aircraft is going to have a vastly-less-capable weather radar than another, for example.

They are hardly the only airline to be in that boat. Any airline that has 2nd hand airplanes will eventually end up in that boat.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
q120
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):
Sounds like typical Union garbage to me..,

agreed.

  
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
Sooner787
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:12 pm

Doesn't AA do the heavy maintenance on Allegiant's Mad Dogs?
 
ikramerica
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 9):
I like how people take months to study something and it can all be thrown out with one simple reading of a news article by well known anti-union posters on anet.

Uh.... okay.

The UNION is claiming that meeting all safety standards is unsafe.

What would you call it? Just because it took them months to figure out exactly how they wanted to sling mud, doesn't mean it's not mud. It's just very wet mud.

Notice they didn't go public until now, but if they suspected something wasn't safe enough, and they represent the pilots who are in charge of flying unsafe planes, seems like they would bring it up sooner.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 16):
Like the old saw, "What do you call the guy who graduates last in medical school? Doctor. A pass is a pass.

15 "Pieces of Flair" is the bare minimum.

"You know what, Stan, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, Brian, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?"
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
nws2002
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:49 pm

I think G4's recent issues, and the media attention at PIE focusing on it, are really the result of increasing the fleet utilization to serve new markets and grow the airline. The pilots are also involved in labor negotiations, that you have to at least consider could impact their likelihood to write up small maintenance issues or refuse aircraft. Combine these two things and the airline will run out of spare aircraft at each base quickly and have to cancel or reschedule flights.

The bigger issue is that G4 cannot outright replace the MD-80s with new or even used aircraft. They also want to continue growing and taking advantage of the major carriers reduction in service to smaller markets.

The final issue is that G4 passengers are often not frequent travelers. They don't understand that delays and cancellations happen to all airlines. Six or eight hour delays on G4 suck, no doubt about that, especially when the flight is then cancelled. However, in reality the big reason it sucks so bad on G4 is that there are no other flights to shift passengers to. If your AA flight is cancelled they simply start moving everyone to the next flight to DFW and you're on your way again. If G4 cancels you wait until the next day when they reschedule and bring in a rescue aircraft.
 
highflier92660
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:57 pm

I'm sure we- the flying public- would really like to know what the actual safety status of Allegiant's ancient Mad-Dogs are. At PIE they cancelled six flights with vague explanations about maintenance issues. On another recent fun-filled Allegiant flight, the passengers gave themselves the over-wing plug-door evacuation final exam after they smelled the odor of jet fuel emanating from the tail region where the APU is located. More bad publicity for Allegiant with a photo showing the pax on the top of the wing and the flaps retracted.

And we've all heard and read how bad being on the G4 pilot seniority list is. If flying for Delta Air Lines is the equivalent of playing for the New York Yankees than driving an MD-80 for Allegiant is like being in the minors for the Cucamonga Cow Bells. A guy on reserve can go out his door on Monday and not return for days like a modern day Flying Dutchman. Also, is it true some aircraft have deferred maintenance item lists that look as thick as War and Peace? Also it would be nice if all the G4 aircraft had standardized cockpits as wjcandee wrote in reply 19. Decades ago TWA used to fly aircraft with the overhead toggle switch on-off positions in the opposite direction of every other airlines and didn't that lead to surprises when their aircraft were integrated into subsequent airline fleets.

In short, what is the real corporate culture over at G4? Is it simply a Maurice Gallagher reincarnation of his old airline, ValuJet ? Nobody wants to wait until an airplane falls out of the sky.
 
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Navigator
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting hiflyeras (Reply 1):
If their management was smart (and I'm sure they are) they'd be ditching those MD80's asap.

Whats the Aircraft type to do with it if its maintenance related? SAS flew MD-80 until recently and had no such problems.
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32andBelow
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:36 pm

For those asking, barely meeting safety standards is not something to shoot for in aviation, and not something at all my company is interested in. It is preached to highly exceed any sort of safety regulation.
 
N353SK
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 16):
Like the old saw, "What do you call the guy who graduates last in medical school? Doctor. A pass is a pass.

So an engine failing in flight is perfectly acceptable so long as Allegiant gets you to Vegas on the remaining engine?
 
nikeherc
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:13 pm

Quoting N353SK (Reply 29):
So an engine failing in flight is perfectly acceptable so long as Allegiant gets you to Vegas on the remaining engine?

No, it's an occurrence that can and does happen on any and all airlines. The crew following the correct procedures and getting you safely to Vegas or a suitable alternate with transportation provided to your final destination is the industry norm.

I remember several years ago a BA 747 had an engine failure shortly after leaving LAX and continued to LHR. Is or was BA an unsafe airline?
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
backseatdriver
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 30):
I remember several years ago a BA 747 had an engine failure shortly after leaving LAX and continued to LHR. Is or was BA an unsafe airline?

Well, that depends. Were their pilots in union contract negotiations?   
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:03 pm

"Barely passing" sounds like passing. If they uphold the standards, they're safe -- if they don't, they don't.

Nothing to see here other than the typical union PR.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
cbphoto
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:05 pm

Once again, a bunch of arm chair critics on this board with little to no knowledge of the situation. What is safe and what is legal are often two very different things in this industry. Most planes have two systems to back up each other and it is widely known that one of those systems can legally be MELd. However, it's one thing to MEL a system to get it back to a maintenance base to be fixed, and another to fly the aircraft around for weeks on end with that one system MELd because it suites the company. Now, when the backup system fails, the plane is forced to make an emergency landing, because now both of the systems are inoperative. This is the sort of stuff that goes on at places like G4. Most of you chalk this up to union rhetoric, but it's a different world on the line. The amount of issues that happen on a weekly basis (most never make the news) is very disproportionate to size of operation G4 has.
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
N353SK
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 30):
No, it's an occurrence that can and does happen on any and all airlines. The crew following the correct procedures and getting you safely to Vegas or a suitable alternate with transportation provided to your final destination is the industry norm.

Safety is not binary. You cannot say that an airline or aircraft is either "safe" or "unsafe." Of course engines fail at all airlines, but they don't all experience failures at the same rate. Some of this is luck, and some of this is attributable to each company's safety culture. All airlines in the US are safe, but some are safer than others. I would argue that Allegiant falls on the lower end of the sliding safety scale.

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 30):
I remember several years ago a BA 747 had an engine failure shortly after leaving LAX and continued to LHR. Is or was BA an unsafe airline?

Flying to London with 3 engines is an elevated risk. It doesn't make BA unsafe, but clearly continuing was less safe than air returning to London. Again, safety is not binary, and "we didn't kill anybody today" does not mean an airline is safe. Biman Bangladesh hasn't had a fatality since 1984 - does that make them safe?

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 33):
What is safe and what is legal are often two very different things in this industry.

I could legally fly into Reno on a gusty night with the windshear detection and EGPWS MEL'd. Would I? No way.
 
Flighty
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 33):
Once again, a bunch of arm chair critics on this board with little to no knowledge of the situation.

Okay, but in the real argument, both sides are professional. Between pilots and the FAA.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 19):
it does concern me that G4's Mad Dog cockpits apparently are a mish-mash of various systems from different manufacturers, of vastly-different eras, of vastly-different capabilities, if I understand their policies. Some of that may be unavoidable, but it does create a human-factors issue of unknown significance. And it also means that one aircraft is going to have a vastly-less-capable weather radar than another, for example. Would it be "more safe" to standardize on, say, the most capable radar as the aircraft are being inducted to the Certificate? Arguably yes.

The pilot message would have been more convincing if they included this type of nuanced argument.
 
DDR
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 24):

LOL. So true. Awesome movie too.
 
n92r03
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:07 pm

Last week they cancelled 6 flights or roughly 2% of their flights that day for "operational" reasons. If UA did that could you imagine the horror?
 
F9Animal
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:08 pm

Maurice Gallagher founded Valujet. I am sure the FAA watches G4 a little closer than normal. I would not suggest this as a Union tactic either. My union has gone ballistic over safety issues, and these instances happened when we were not involved in contract issues. I won't discredit the pilots concerns, as they are more involved with the potential safety issues and emergencies than the average airliners.net armchair CEO.

If this was all about forcing G4 to give them and the union what they want, the pilots could easily cause havoc across the system. I would seriously consider listening to what the pilots are saying here. Gallagher has a history of running an airline with a serious safety history.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
wjcandee
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:16 pm

AA maintained the planes until they decided they didn't want to anymore. So now AAR does it. Hard to argue with the bona fides of either organization.
 
wjcandee
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:26 pm

This article seems to indicate that the FAA has no reservations:

http://www.satprnews.com/2015/05/21/...eared-for-continued-growth-by-faa/
 
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enilria
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:26 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):
So the safety standard isn't safe enough if you meet it?
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 4):
       

Agreed. Ridiculous. WN, UA, and AA have been fined routinely for being below safety standards, so G4 is better than they are?

My favorite was United flying a plane 200 times with a towel in the engine to soak up leaking oil. Nice...

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/a...n-fines-from-american-airlines.ece

http://consumerist.com/2015/04/10/fa...-qualifications-scheduling-issues/

http://gadling.com/2009/10/19/united...-fine-for-towel-stuffed-in-engine/

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=16754
 
DDR
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 38):

I would think that any person who had connection with Valujet and is at another airline would invite extra scrutiny. The whole aviation safety watch thing really blew it with Valujet.

At the end of the day, after the Valujet fiasco, no domestic airline is operating under unsafe conditions.
 
xero9
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:23 pm

Just to play devil's advocate, because a lot of people thing a "barely passed" is still a pass, which I agree it is..

Say you're going in for some heart surgery or some other serious procedure. You have two surgeons. One that graduated at the top of their class, and the other who just barely graduated. Which would you prefer? True, both are technically qualified, but you can't argue which one you'd pick.
 
ikramerica
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RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:29 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 41):
Agreed. Ridiculous. WN, UA, and AA have been fined routinely for being below safety standards, so G4 is better than they are?

My favorite was United flying a plane 200 times with a towel in the engine to soak up leaking oil. Nice...

Right. Those are violations, but because of the levels of redundancy built in, even most violations don't cause immediate danger. That G4 (an airline I would NEVER fly for many reasons) is meeting standards says that they aren't unsafe.

That they grounded 2% of flights one day to address something that they found problematic says what? That they recognized something at addressed it. Would one rather that they DON'T do that? Fly around for weeks like WN or AA, in violation, so that they don't impact their schedule?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Braniff747SP
Posts: 2576
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:56 am

RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting xero9 (Reply 43):
You have two surgeons. One that graduated at the top of their class, and the other who just barely graduated. Which would you prefer? True, both are technically qualified, but you can't argue which one you'd pick.

...except that they're both surgeons and are both licensed to operate -- and if that's the case, odds are neither of them have had mishaps directly traced to them.

In an idealistic sense, sure, but in a pragmatic world your argument doesn't hold much weight.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4722
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:50 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 9):
I like how people take months to study something and it can all be thrown out with one simple reading of a news article by well known anti-union posters on anet.

Kind of like how people decades of experience can be poo-poo'd aside by labeling them "anti-union".

Quoting xero9 (Reply 43):
Say you're going in for some heart surgery or some other serious procedure. You have two surgeons. One that graduated at the top of their class, and the other who just barely graduated. Which would you prefer? True, both are technically qualified, but you can't argue which one you'd pick.

And then you discover that the top-of-the-class surgeon charges 5 times more than his counterpart at the bottom, and has had more people die on his table than the other guy. How does that make you feel? (Protip: It shouldn't do anything but make you want to dig deeper, like how many people each operated on and the patient's individual circumstances).
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10144
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:56 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 44):
That they grounded 2% of flights one day to address something that they found problematic says what? That they recognized something at addressed it. Would one rather that they DON'T do that? Fly around for weeks like WN or AA, in violation, so that they don't impact their schedule?

I think unions don't realize or care about the damage they do to their employer which in turn reduces revenue which in turn reduces profits which in turn reduces their pay. There are ways to get higher pay without safety extortion. If they have real safety issues they can report them to the FAA.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15082
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:57 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 46):
And then you discover that the top-of-the-class surgeon charges 5 times more than his counterpart at the bottom, and has had more people die on his table than the other guy. How does that make you feel? (Protip: It shouldn't do anything but make you want to dig deeper, like how many people each operated on and the patient's individual circumstances).

And has two surgeons "assisting" him at two tables, where he spends very little time with you because he comes in to supervise your surgery then runs off to the next one.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: G4 Pilots: G4 Planes "Barely Pass" Safety Standard

Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 42):
At the end of the day, after the Valujet fiasco, no domestic airline is operating under unsafe conditions.

If relevant, can we discuss what maintenance problems ValuJet had, and how they influenced the Everglades crash? (What are we talking about?)

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