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Miami
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:21 am

According to airlineroute, Virgin Atlantic will restore its 2nd daily LAX service from October 25th.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:45 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 100):
According to airlineroute, Virgin Atlantic will restore its 2nd daily LAX service from October 25th.

....they've already done so. 2nd flight is an A346, operating now.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DTWLAX
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:52 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 81):
I mean even with UA's shrinking presence at LAX (hopefully plateau-ing), it still insists on flying LAX-LHR/NRT on its own metal.

That is because UA has no choice to fly partner metal on LAX-LHR. Their JV partner LH does not fly LAX-LHR.

DL's situation can be compared to UA/LH for LAX-FRA. Its LH that operates both LAX-FRA flights not UA.
 
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Miami
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:57 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 101):

Then what is he talking about?
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
surfdog75
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 98):
I'm sorry that we don't get the same in-depth analysis of every DL/AF/KL/AZ seasonal frequency swap as we are getting with this one.

I think some people think way too much about really unimportant things.

It's pretty sad when you announce you're trading slots with VS to fly LAX-LHR and giving them ATL-LHR. Your marketing dept can't even fill a 76ER so you discontinue the route and VS keeps ATL. London and LA, two of the world's largest cities and 208 seats a day. That's the reason for the in depth analysis here.
 
jetlanta
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 104):
It's pretty sad when you announce you're trading slots with VS to fly LAX-LHR and giving them ATL-LHR. Your marketing dept can't even fill a 76ER so you discontinue the route and VS keeps ATL. London and LA, two of the world's largest cities and 208 seats a day. That's the reason for the in depth analysis here.

Or your marketing department filled them so well that Network Planning and the JV team decided to add more seats by replacing DL with larger VS aircraft for the winter.

There has been NO announcements made by DL or VS about any of this. There is always another side to these stories. But go ahead, jump to conclusions.
 
surfdog75
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:43 am

Having seen the flights I don't think that was the case. Either way what a bonus for the DL frontline employee. More JV flying for other carriers. There wasn't a shred of marketing for LAX-LHR that I saw.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:45 am

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 106):
Having seen the flights I don't think that was the case. Either way what a bonus for the DL frontline employee. More JV flying for other carriers.

Actually yes. The airplanes are going somewhere--Delta didn't just announce it was retiring the 767 fleet and lay offs; they're handing a couple of routes to a JV partner and will be moving those airplanes to other routes that haven't been announced/scheduled yet.

People need to RELAX.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:46 am

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 102):
That is because UA has no choice to fly partner metal on LAX-LHR.

For clarification: no immunized partner.
NZ still flies LAX-LHR, but that's just Star partnership, and not revenue-shared.


Quoting Miami (Reply 103):
Then what is he talking about?

Who knows.

But if you want corroboration, the 2nd flight (VS023) just landed here a few min ago:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/V...3/history/20150624/1445Z/EGLL/KLAX

VS008 was in earlier and is already on its way back to LHR:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/V...8/history/20150625/0055Z/KLAX/EGLL
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
surfdog75
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 107):
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 107):

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 106):
Having seen the flights I don't think that was the case. Either way what a bonus for the DL frontline employee. More JV flying for other carriers.

Actually yes. The airplanes are going somewhere--Delta didn't just announce it was retiring the 767 fleet and lay offs; they're handing a couple of routes to a JV partner and will be moving those airplanes to other routes that haven't been announced/scheduled yet.

People need to RELAX.

I'm pretty relaxed. It's just a shame to see that a carrier as big as DL can make one of the world's premier routes work on its own piece of small metal.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:38 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 107):
Actually yes. The airplanes are going somewhere--Delta didn't just announce it was retiring the 767 fleet and lay offs; they're handing a couple of routes to a JV partner and will be moving those airplanes to other routes that haven't been announced/scheduled yet.

The airplanes getting sent to domestic flying or VCV might not mean lay-offs (highly unlikely because the airline is a little thin matter of fact) but it probably means someone is going to be working Christmas, or someone just got bumped to a lower paying spot or someone is flying worse trips because of it.

and its not a couple of trips.

Delta gave up
1x DTW-LHR
1x ATL-LHR
1x ATL-MAN
and now
1x EWR-LHR
1x LAX-LHR.

They got 1x JFK-MAN
My math says that is 4 trips.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 107):
People need to RELAX.

Pilots just had a grievance because Delta has been outsourcing so much capacity to TATL JV partners (a heck of a lot more than two trips).
Why are we relaxing again?
 
MSYPI7185
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:40 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 49):



The DL and VS joint venture concerns transatlantic flying between the US and LHR. Unless you have jv language to the contrary, I can't see how DL can claim flying to Brazil would count in a TATL joint venture.

I guess I need to read more carefully. For whatever reason I did not catch the JV part of the question.
 
laca773
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:43 am

Quoting panamair (Reply 72):
would have to disagree. The only aspect in which Virgin is really better is the Clubhouse (ok, and maybe the ability to ride a 744 between JFK and LHR &nbsp Wink
Otherwise, pretty overrated. Look at the brand new 789, still the same awkward herringbone seats (perhaps with a few additional kbells and whistles); I know that those are Virgin's 'trademark' seats but still...even Delta has moved on to more pax-friendly reverse herringbone seats on new widebodies....

It would seem to me DL has probably already been in an ongoing discussions with VS regarding making improvements to the lay out of their Upper Class cabin. I agree with you about the service being over rated. The meal service is not near as nice as DL's. I'm not sure what their bedding is like, but DL has gone all out with the Westin product, and the very nice and soon to be re-freshed, even nicer Tumi Amenity Kits. VS' kits are horrible. Very frugal.
The sleep suit is very unique to VS. I don't see DL bringing in such a product. VS is a much much smaller carrier, almost like a "boutique" airline with their premium cabin.
The UC bar is another unique product to VS. With the smaller 789s, it would be better to enlarge the cabin and eliminate the bar, however since this a unique product to them, it won't be going away anytime soon. I think this is another eason why the 77W would be an excellent a/c for them to take.

Quoting panamair (Reply 80):
e'll have to see about next summer, but 3x daily was for the summer. IIRC, last winter LAX-LHR was also 2x for VS/DL (one each), so there really isn't a material change this coming winter since VS/DL will still be offering roughly 2x daily but with VS operating the 2nd flight instead.

Precisely. I think it was perfect for DL to operate the LAX-LHR flight for the time it has. VS was trying to decide what they were going to do with some of the routes they were operating, as well as retiring many a/c. They have completely retired the A343s and now the Heathrow based 744s are gone. It was going to be very tough for them to continue operating the second daily flight with the fleet they had, so DL stepped in and helped their JV partner. Now that they are receiving additional 789s, they can resume the second flight during the lower demand Autumn/Winter season. I wouldn't be surprised to see DL re-instate their LHR flight during the busy summer months if the demand is there.
They have right sized these flights with the smaller more efficient 789s. Hopefully the yields will markedly improve now that they won't have to sell much lower yielding Y seats on a 744 and the A346s who's days are numbered as it is. With the smaller 789, perhaps their late LAX departure will see daily service versus 3-4x a week on the A346, and when they still had them, the A343s.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 92):
Other than DL FFs who either want to use upgrades or those who want to earn more miles in the front cabin (I believe VS is still distanced-based earning for SkyMiles), many passengers would actually prefer VS hard product.

It all depends on what passengers preferences are now. It actually opens up more choices for those who fly DL and other Sky Team carriers.

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 102):
That is because UA has no choice to fly partner metal on LAX-LHR. Their JV partner LH does not fly LAX-LHR.

Does UA have JV status with NZ on their LAX-LHR flight? This is Star Alliance's best choice on the LAX-LHR market by far. Superior everything over UA.

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 104):
It's pretty sad when you announce you're trading slots with VS to fly LAX-LHR and giving them ATL-LHR. Your marketing dept can't even fill a 76ER so you discontinue the route and VS keeps ATL. London and LA, two of the w

It seems people are forgetting that VS has changed their focus to the US, and DL is helping them expand into the North America sector since they own a majority of them now. I don't think it's sad at all. It makes sense to offer a product that will appeal to a larger passenger base than previously.
 
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Miami
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:51 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 101):
....they've already done so. 2nd flight is an A346, operating now.

This is probably a Summer seasonal service.


Here's what was posted :

Quote:
Virgin Atlantic is restoring 2nd daily London Heathrow – Los Angeles service for winter season, starting 25OCT15. The 2nd daily flight in winter season will replace service previously operated by DELTA, which DL will end the 767 operation on 04OCT15.

Reservation for VS023/024, on/after 25OCT15, opened on Wednesday 24JUN15.

VS007 LHR1055 – 1425LAX 346 D
VS023 LHR1220 – 1550LAX 346 D

VS008 LAX1715 – 1200+1LHR 346 D
VS024 LAX2050 – 1525+1LHR 346 D
http://airlineroute.net/2015/06/25/vs-lax-w15/


It looks like it's happening in the Winter as well. I guess that's what he meant. And looks like VS is replacing the service for DL.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
anstar
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:42 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 97):
..DTW being not even two weeks old and all.

I'm sure they have forward booking data that will show how the route is performing.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 112):
They have completely retired the A343s and now the Heathrow based 744s are gone.

They still have 5 x LHR 747's in service. they currently operate these into BOS/JFK/MIA/SFO. They start being phased out from September - April.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 112):
I'm not sure what their bedding is like, but DL has gone all out with the Westin product,

You get a mattress runner, duvet and pillow in VS J.
 
factsonly
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:50 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 110):
Pilots just had a grievance because Delta has been outsourcing so much capacity to TATL JV partners (a heck of a lot more than two trips).
Why are we relaxing again?
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 63):
I remember the sell job the company did though. "oh don't worry, Virgin is getting ATL-MAN, ATL-LHR and DTW-LHR but you are getting EWR-LHR, LAX-LHR and JFK-MAN" two out of the three are now gone.
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 62):
It's like flying KLM to Amsterdam or Air France to CDG, of course they're going to be stronger, it's their local market.

Let's consider DL's share of the significant JV TATL network .

- DELTA remains the largest airline across the Atlantic.
- Within the JV DL undertakes about 50% of flying.
- DELTA is by far the strongest TATL carrier at AMS with 19xdaily (63%) departures, versus KLM 11x departures (36%) to the USA.
- DELTA has about 50% at CDG and slightly less at LHR, but owns 49% of Virgin.

The JV is a give and take on certain routes, where one airline's capacity may be better suited than an others.
And surely Delta pilots are just as entitled to these flights as their partner pilots are.

It is all one happy pilot family, or perhaps....not.
 
rta
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:11 am

It'll be strange not to see DL metal on LHR-LAX, and I'm surprised EWR-LHR lasted as long as it did. Wonder where the planes will go.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:18 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 115):
Let's consider DL's share of the significant JV TATL network .

No lets not. Delta just paid the pilots millions because they are under the agreed upon minums in JV flying. Period. It is very simple.

Do you believe Delta pilots (or employees in general) should just pick and chose what work rules they go by?

Quoting factsonly (Reply 115):
- DELTA remains the largest airline across the Atlantic.
- Within the JV DL undertakes about 50% of flying.
- DELTA is by far the strongest TATL carrier at AMS with 19xdaily (63%) departures, versus KLM 11x departures (36%) to the USA.
- DELTA has about 50% at CDG and slightly less at LHR, but owns 49% of Virgin.

I do not care. Not one bit.

and the JV does not just cover USA-Europe flying. Example, some India flying is also involved(of which, Delta flies a big fat 0% of). I also believe Canada is involved.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 115):

The JV is a give and take on certain routes, where one airline's capacity may be better suited than an others.
And surely Delta pilots are just as entitled to these flights as their partner pilots are.

Might want to ready the contract before posting.  

DALPA is promised 52 or 53% of the EASK pool between AF/KL/AZ/DL. The reason it is EASK and not capacity or flights is due to Delta's biggest plane (generally) on TATL flying is the 333, Smallest is the 752 and the bulk are 767s. AF, for example, the smallest plane is the 332, average plane is a 777 and the largest is a 380.

having said that, the JV is give and take, don't get me wrong. The problem is it has been much more taking than giving.
As i said above, the company just paid the pilots a nice amount of change because they are out of compliance with the JV.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 115):
It is all one happy pilot family, or perhaps....not.

it is. The terms of the JV were agreed upon by all the parties involved. Delta got more of the EASKs (by 2-3%) because the average plane size is much smaller than that off the other carriers.
 
laca773
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:24 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 114):
They still have 5 x LHR 747's in service. they currently operate these into BOS/JFK/MIA/SFO. They start being phased out from September - April.
Quoting anstar (Reply 114):
You get a mattress runner, duvet and pillow in VS J.

Thank you for the clarifications, anstar.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 115):
- DELTA remains the largest airline across the Atlantic.

Atlantic only, Jan-May 2015, By RPM

DL 13,958,015,000
UA 13,435,318,000

Atlantic only, Jan-May 2015, By ASM

DL 18,009,357,000
UA 18,012,241,000

Depends on which metric you use, a different airline is larger. For all practical purposes, it's a virtual tie unless one wants to be pedantic about it.
 
questions
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Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 119):

Atlantic only, Jan-May 2015, By RPM

DL 13,958,015,000
UA 13,435,318,000

Atlantic only, Jan-May 2015, By ASM

DL 18,009,357,000
UA 18,012,241,000

Depends on which metric you use, a different airline is larger. For all practical purposes, it's a virtual tie unless one wants to be pedantic about it.

I completely understand RPM and ASM are standard airline metrics. But do they really measure size, i.e., a valid way to determine "largest"? The M (miles) seems to distort the metric since it includes distance flown.

For example, Airline A flies a 777 JFK-LHR with 250 passengers and Airline B flies a 777 with 250 passengers LAX-LHR:

Airline A: 250 x 3446 = 861,500

Airline B: 250 x 5449 = 1,362,250

Is Airline B really "larger" than Airline A?
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2952
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 119):
Atlantic only, Jan-May 2015, By RPM

DL 13,958,015,000
UA 13,435,318,000

Atlantic only, Jan-May 2015, By ASM

DL 18,009,357,000
UA 18,012,241,000

Depends on which metric you use, a different airline is larger. For all practical purposes, it's a virtual tie unless one wants to be pedantic about it.

DL's summer schedule is typically quite a bit larger than UA's across the Atlantic. DL has been very aggressive at paring down capacity during the slower winter months. Overall, DL is larger than UA across the Atlantic on an annualized basis.

Jeremy
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:01 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 121):

DL's summer schedule is typically quite a bit larger than UA's across the Atlantic. DL has been very aggressive at paring down capacity during the slower winter months. Overall, DL is larger than UA across the Atlantic on an annualized basis.

That was true last year. This year UA has copied the same model and doing tons of winter paring and summer spiking. Even 2014 full year, they're not THAT far off from each other.

2014 full-year ASM, Atlantic only :

DL 47,586,393,000
UA 46,962,844,000
AA 37,573,447,000 (inc US)

Difference = DL approx 1.3% larger than UA, 26% larger than AA.

Quoting questions (Reply 120):

I completely understand RPM and ASM are standard airline metrics. But do they really measure size, i.e., a valid way to determine "largest"? The M (miles) seems to distort the metric since it includes distance flown.

For example, Airline A flies a 777 JFK-LHR with 250 passengers and Airline B flies a 777 with 250 passengers LAX-LHR:

Airline A: 250 x 3446 = 861,500
Airline B: 250 x 5449 = 1,362,250

Is Airline B really "larger" than Airline A?

ASM matters just as much as seats because it indicates the global scale of the network.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1165
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:33 am

Quoting laca773 (Reply 112):
Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 102):
That is because UA has no choice to fly partner metal on LAX-LHR. Their JV partner LH does not fly LAX-LHR.

Does UA have JV status with NZ on their LAX-LHR flight? This is Star Alliance's best choice on the LAX-LHR market by far. Superior everything over UA.

No revenue sharing JV. It is just a Star Alliance partner.

Quoting rta (Reply 116):
It'll be strange not to see DL metal on LHR-LAX,

Why will it be strange? Not like DL was operating the route for years.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 117):
and the JV does not just cover USA-Europe flying. Example, some India flying is also involved(of which, Delta flies a big fat 0% of).

I did not understand your post. DL does not fly to India. So how is that a revenue sharing route? Isn't the JV only transatlantic? KL's and AF's flights from AMS and CDG to India are not transatlantic
 
Sightseer
Posts: 1000
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 123):
I did not understand your post. DL does not fly to India. So how is that a revenue sharing route? Isn't the JV only transatlantic? KL's and AF's flights from AMS and CDG to India are not transatlantic

It includes any itinerary with a NA-EU flight, so people connecting in AMS or CDG to India or Africa are part of the JV (and being increasingly targeted by the ME3).
 
United1
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 124):
Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 123):
I did not understand your post. DL does not fly to India. So how is that a revenue sharing route? Isn't the JV only transatlantic? KL's and AF's flights from AMS and CDG to India are not transatlantic

It includes any itinerary with a NA-EU flight, so people connecting in AMS or CDG to India or Africa are part of the JV (and being increasingly targeted by the ME3).

Not just on DL... I believe that UA and LH have a very similar agreement on beyond flights.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26650
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:45 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 27):
Pretty disgraceful in almost every respect. Especially if you fly Econ

Virgin Y has always been pretty cramped, but at least has a solid AVOD system and ok food.

Quoting Nola (Reply 28):
MSY-LHR? Beat BA to the punch?

Not a chance.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 44):
Does the discontinuation of the LAX-LHR flights mean routing west-coast passengers through SEA?

No. It means they will put them on Virgin.

Quoting anstar (Reply 71):
JNB/BOS/IAD all have 1 flight a day and have a clubhouse.

Smaller, developed at a different time and at a different cost.

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 83):
The issue was space in T2, with NZ moving over to the Tom Bradley there was now a lounge space available.

Nope. AC took over the NZ space, which was a big boon for them. VS took over the old AF/KL/NW space.
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