Delta Exits LHR-LAX/EWR

MAH4546 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:24 pm

The Newark exit was previously known, as it was removed last week from GDS. And now LAX-LHR service has been removed from GDS, too.

Neither is showing in the S16 schedules as of now.

Source: http://airlineroute.net/2015/06/23/dl-lhr-w15/

jetblue1965 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:27 pm

Queue the folks that will remind us VS is still in both markets, and since VS and DL JV, therefore DL didn't exit the market

filler filler

catiii · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:28 pm

Where's the capacity going?

Polot · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:30 pm

VS is flying 2x daily again to LAX this summer, so it will be back to the old schedule and no longer 3x daily. Is VS retaking the EWR-LHR flight or are VS/DL permanently going down to 1x daily?

Osubuckeyes · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 1):
since VS and DL JV, therefore DL didn't exit the market

Thanks for the reminder... And wouldn't that be true...?

jetblue1965 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 2):
Where's the capacity going?

If they're smart ? LAX-BOS.

STT757 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:31 pm

Is VS going back to 2x daily EWR? Or is the EWR-LHR slot part of their deal with UA?

slcdeltarumd11 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:36 pm

If true, LAX should shock no one. SEA is the current focus, and the DL/AF joint venture was a complete disaster the last time they tried LAX-LHR it was actually empty minus a few very happy non-revs

delta sold those seats on its website and everything then also

thekorean · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:41 pm

Who dominates LAX-LHR? BA? AA? UA?

ipodguy7 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 8):
Who dominates LAX-LHR? BA? AA? UA?

Oneworld:
AA has 2x B77W
BA has 2x A380

Star:
NZ has 1x B77W
UA has 1x B772

Skyteam-ish (JV with DL)
VS has 2x B744 (not sure about VS)

MesaFlyGuy · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):

It looks like they're sticking with one flight, so it is possible that the slot is part of the deal.

[email protected] · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 8):
Who dominates LAX-LHR? BA? AA? UA?

AA: 20.9% of total seats
BA: 31.6%
NZ: 11.2%
VS: 19.6%
UA: 9.2%
DL: 7.6%

Based upon the w/c 22nd June 2015 and from CAPA.

LAXintl · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:48 pm

LAX going all VS makes sense from a customer perspective since VS just opened its first club house lounge here, so it needs more then a single flight to ever make it pay for itself.

enilria · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):

The Newark exit was previously known, as it was removed last week from GDS. And now LAX-LHR service has been removed from GDS, too.

Neither is showing in the S16 schedules as of now.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 1):
Queue the folks that will remind us VS is still in both markets, and since VS and DL JV, therefore DL didn't exit the market

The LAX thing is no big deal as we saw VS add a second Winter flight into the OAG for LAX-LHR during the weekend load. Since it is a JV I'd say that means nothing.

Quoting polot (Reply 3):
Is VS retaking the EWR-LHR flight or are VS/DL permanently going down to 1x daily?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
Or is the EWR-LHR slot part of their deal with UA?

Ding Ding Ding.

SO, my data (DOT) says that JFK-LAX/SFO for UA was not unprofitable as they claim. I concede it may have been marginally profitable, but not unprofitable. Now we are seeing an even more sinister development which is that deal essentially also included DL existing EWR-LHR. Agreed that VS remains. Regardless, this whole EWR-JFK slot deal is very anti-competitive as I see it. It's essentially an agreement between the parties to not compete with each other from their competitor's hub.

Sightseer · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:50 pm

So that's 2 763s' worth of flying that presumably needs to go elsewhere in the DL/VS JV. Any ideas where that might be?

Sooner787 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:54 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 14):
So that's 2 763s' worth of flying that presumably needs to go elsewhere in the DL/VS JV. Any ideas where that might be?

Dallas Love Field?

Osubuckeyes · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:54 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 14):
So that's 2 763s' worth of flying that presumably needs to go elsewhere in the DL/VS JV. Any ideas where that might be?

I would put money on Seattle

MAH4546 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:54 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
The LAX thing is no big deal as we saw VS add a second Winter flight into the OAG for LAX-LHR during the weekend load. Since it is a JV I'd say that means nothing.

Well it does mean something in the summer months, when it was 2x VS+1x DL.

Miami · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:55 pm

Not very surprised since VS is in the market and 2x daily in the Summer.

enilria · Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
The LAX thing is no big deal as we saw VS add a second Winter flight into the OAG for LAX-LHR during the weekend load. Since it is a JV I'd say that means nothing.

Well it does mean something in the summer months, when it was 2x VS+1x DL.

How do we know it doesn't come back next Summer?

SonomaFlyer · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:00 pm

DL will be banking on the pilots biting off on the tentative agreement. The TATL j/v with VS is subject to its own rules but the handwriting is on the wall; more j/v and code shares means DL can make the coin without flying the route.

DDR · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:01 pm

My original post disappeared. Weird.

I think the LAX flight being pulled since they are focusing on SEA. As great as DL seems to be, you can't be everywhere all the time.

I do like how DL is thinking outside the "ATL box" though. Would be interesting to see where they would be today without the NW merger. Or Pan AM asset acquisitions. Or WA merger.

It's pretty impressive that after all the combining of different airlines that ATL has grown continuously.

OA412 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:04 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 7):
If true, LAX should shock no one.

Why?

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 7):
SEA is the current focus, and the DL/AF joint venture was a complete disaster the last time they tried LAX-LHR it was actually empty minus a few very happy non-revs

What? DL/AF flying LAX-LHR and DL/VS flying LAX-LHR are two very, very different things. DL/AF completely exited the market whereas DL/VS remain in the market with VS's 2 daily flights.

Quoting enilria (Reply 19):
How do we know it doesn't come back next Summer?

I don't think we know that yet. It may be a seasonal cut, it may not be. Given how willing DL has been to make flying seasonal, it wouldn't surprise me if this flight comes back next summer.

MAH4546 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 19):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
The LAX thing is no big deal as we saw VS add a second Winter flight into the OAG for LAX-LHR during the weekend load. Since it is a JV I'd say that means nothing.

Well it does mean something in the summer months, when it was 2x VS+1x DL.

How do we know it doesn't come back next Summer?

Because it was bookable to EOS and now, it no longer is.

It may come back, it may not, but it was removed.

jfk777 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:18 pm

In this day and age it would only occur to a US airline to use a 767 from Los Angeles to LHR when all other use A380, 744, 77W, 777 or 787-9. Delta should lease all its LHR slots to Virgin and stop flying to LHR, it would be better for all.

thegoldenargosy · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:24 pm

DL has tried LHR-EWR/LAX/MIA in the last couple of years with no success.

B757capt · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:33 pm

This is an interesting thread to me...... DL doesn't just pull out of markets.

Where are these aircraft going? There is something up about this and I don't buy for one minute that they just pulled flights with no adds in other areas.

airzim · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 24):
Delta should lease all its LHR slots to Virgin and stop flying to LHR, it would be better for all.

You obviously haven't flown VS lately.

Pretty disgraceful in almost every respect. Especially if you fly Econ

Nola · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:38 pm

MSY-LHR? Beat BA to the punch?

Totally unrealistic, but it would be awfully interesting given the Delta feed at MSY.

I'd bet it will be LAS, BOS, MIA or ATL.

enilria · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:38 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 21):
I think the LAX flight being pulled since they are focusing on SEA. As great as DL seems to be, you can't be everywhere all the time.

I don't think it means anything negative for LAX. DL is committed to LAX.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 22):
Quoting enilria (Reply 19):
How do we know it doesn't come back next Summer?

I don't think we know that yet. It may be a seasonal cut, it may not be. Given how willing DL has been to make flying seasonal, it wouldn't surprise me if this flight comes back next summer.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
Because it was bookable to EOS and now, it no longer is.

Here is what was for sale last week and here is what is for sale this week...

Flights per month each way
Before After
DL VS DL VS
OCT 31 55 5 62
NOV 30 30 0 45
DEC 31 31 0 56
JAN 31 31 0 49
FEB 29 29 0 42
MAR 31 36 0 57
APR 30 60 0 60

In the Winter it's a fraction of a roundtrip. I think it remains to be seen what this means in peak next year. VS was planning to go to all 789s as of APR next year and that is when it appears to be a service decrease. We'll see. I don't see DL backing down in LAX and VS/DL same thing.

Braniff747SP · Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 24):
In this day and age it would only occur to a US airline to use a 767 from Los Angeles to LHR when all other use A380, 744, 77W, 777 or 787-9.

Yeah. Because the customer gives a damn.

Their hard product could use some work, but the physical airplane the route is flown with isn't of much concern to the paying public (granted, the likes of BA have been able to hedge the usage of the A380 in their favor, but that's not really analogous here).

Miami · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting Nola (Reply 28):
I'd bet it will be LAS, BOS, MIA or ATL.

What will?

Byrdluvs747 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:04 pm

So is the VS brand stronger on the LAX-LHR route?

Quoting Nola (Reply 28):
but it would be awfully interesting given the Delta feed at MSY.

What feed into MSY? All of DL's traffic into MSY comes from its hubs. Who would fly from ATL, DTW, NYC, or MSP to LHR via MSY?

MSY is a spoke for DL. If any carrier has "feed" into MSY its WN.

[Edited 2015-06-23 16:07:04]

peanuts · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:05 pm

FWIW this is very odd.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 7):
LAX should shock no one

It should be shocking. DL is all about the LUX at LAX. How could LHR on own metal be missing from that picture?
DL is shuffling the deck again. Something isn't working.
The sky isn't falling. But still.

Maybe DL is propping VS up where they can. They have a vested interest.

Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
Now we are seeing an even more sinister development which is that deal essentially also included DL existing EWR-LHR.

If we're going down this road then I'm just really curious about what's really going on at Love Field.
Is it really all sinister or just "business" and cya where they can?

panamair · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:12 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 14):
So that's 2 763s' worth of flying that presumably needs to go elsewhere in the DL/VS JV. Any ideas where that might be?

Overall, TATL capacity is either being reduced or moderated given the increases last winter.
While not a direct replacement, there is some increase in TATL capacity this coming winter that will be counterbalanced by these cuts. The winter schedules are not finalized yet so there will be more changes I am sure...

Published year-over-year increases for winter 2015 vs 2016 so far include

PHL-LHR - 752 started spring 2015 is scheduled year-round
JFK-MAN - 752 started spring 2015 is scheduled year-round
JFK-NCE - going back to year-round service this coming winter with 4x weekly 763 (was gone January-March previously); also upgauged from 763 to 764 for Oct-Dec period
JFK-FCO - was not operating on DL metal between January and March last winter now appears to be year-round including next Jan-March; also appears to be upgauged from 763 last winter to 764 (may still change)
JFK-LHR - all 3x daily upgauged 763 to 764 for winter 2016
JFK-FRA - upgauged 763 to 764 for winter 2016
DTW-FRA - upgauged 763 to 764 for winter 2016
ATL-FRA - upgauged 764 to A333 for winter 2016
ATL-MUC - upgauged 764 to A333 for winter 2016
ATL-MAD - upgauged 763 to 764 for winter 2016

Reductions or eliminations for winter 2016 compared to winter 2015:

LAX-LHR
JFK-SVO (going seasonal)
AMS-BOM
ATL-MAN (went over to VS)

thekorean · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:13 pm

DL must want to cut cost and just fly from their primary hub.

If LAX IS even considered a hub it's not very big,

panamair · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 32):
So is the VS brand stronger on the LAX-LHR route?

Quoting peanuts (Reply 33):
It should be shocking. DL is all about the LUX at LAX. How could LHR on own metal be missing from that picture?

May have to do with trying to consolidate both LAX-LHR services in one terminal instead of splitting the flights up at two terminals on opposite sides of LAX?

usairways85 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:24 pm

What about the slots on the other side at LHR? I imagine DL/VS will have to find a use for them.

On a similar note, I am curious how LHR-PHL is doing for DL.

Byrdluvs747 · Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 36):
May have to do with trying to consolidate both LAX-LHR services in one terminal instead of splitting the flights up at two terminals on opposite sides of LAX?

Im not sure how many people connect to DL's LAX-LHR flight, but I would imagine it will now be harder to do so when you have to reclear security over in T2.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 37):
On a similar note, I am curious how LHR-PHL is doing for DL.

It must be doing ok since its staying year round.

Is the PHL-LHR slot operated by DL a remedy slot that reverts back to AA if DL quits the route? Id really like to see it go back to AA.

LAX772LR · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:01 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 9):
VS has 2x B744 (not sure about VS)

VS haven't had 744s here in a while. Currently it's a 788 in the early evening and an A346 at night.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 24):
In this day and age it would only occur to a US airline to use a 767 from Los Angeles to LHR when all other use A380, 744, 77W, 777 or 787-9.

In this day and age it would only occur to an avgeek that fleet has essentially anything to do with the fortunes of a route, so long as the aircraft is capable of reliably covering the distance and properly configured to address demand.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 24):
Delta should lease all its LHR slots to Virgin and stop flying to LHR, it would be better for all

....doesn't quite work that way.

I mean, I'm sure DL wouldn't mind having VS do all the work, despite not having the fleet to cover such. But DL probably wouldn't be too happy when its pilots burn down HQ in protest.

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 25):
DL has tried LHR-EWR/LAX/MIA in the last couple of years with no success.

At least they're keen to try new routes, and they usually succeed more often than fail. As a passenger, I'll take that over stagnation any day.

Quoting Nola (Reply 28):
MSY-LHR? Beat BA to the punch?

What punch would they be beating them to?

While MSY presents what's arguably the strongest case of any USA market for new LON service... it's still less than 100PDEW and would thus need a powerful hub on the LON side in order to make an intercon worthwhile.

BA is the only one who could provide that.

[Edited 2015-06-23 17:15:00]

Freshside3 · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:03 am

It would not surprise me, though, if DL added a second AMS or CDG trip out of EWR, in summer 2016. Having an additional AF/KL connection bank at a different time slot, would provide supplemental options in the peak summer season.

EWR-LHR was a bit of a "dead end".....EWR not a DL hub, LHR not really a SkyTeam hub, and an abundance of flights between NYC-LON markets.

jfklganyc · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:28 am

EWR was likely part of the UA/JFK slot deal.

DL will likely not be adding anything back at EWR and will cut further flights. I'm assuming another 4 or 5 flights need to be cut.

Although details of the deal, how many slots etc have been so cryptically quiet all we could do is assume.

Armodeen · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 37):

On a similar note, I am curious how LHR-PHL is doing for DL.

I've flown the route twice since inception and both times the load was abysmal, like 40 pax total. (And 3 + 5 in J). Crews said it was pretty normal for the route so far.

I swear I saw 2 x A346 for VS on LHR - LAX when looking last week, I can't remember what dates though (January?) they did say they were looking to go all 789 but it seems to have gone the other way at the mo. Am kinda surprised at DL dropping the route so soon tbh.

ERJ170 · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:42 am

Dear Delta... RDU-FRA.. Incentives included. Thank you...

wedgetail737 · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:44 am

Does the discontinuation of the LAX-LHR flights mean routing west-coast passengers through SEA?

enilria · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:53 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 33):
Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
Now we are seeing an even more sinister development which is that deal essentially also included DL existing EWR-LHR.

If we're going down this road then I'm just really curious about what's really going on at Love Field.
Is it really all sinister or just "business" and cya where they can?

Should have said exiting.

Love Field is very sinister behavior by WN. They are attempting to nearly 100% monopolize an airport. Ridiculous.

MSYPI7185 · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:55 am

[quote=Sightseer,reply=

So that's 2 763s' worth of flying that presumably needs to go elsewhere in the DL/VS JV. Any ideas where that might be?

[/quote]

MCO to Brazil maybe. Cannot remember is it GIG or GRU DL is starting

N62NA · Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 1):
Queue the folks that will remind us VS is still in both markets, and since VS and DL JV, therefore DL didn't exit the market

That is correct.

questions · Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:00 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 13):
SO, my data (DOT) says that JFK-LAX/SFO for UA was not unprofitable as they claim. I concede it may have been marginally profitable, but not unprofitable. Now we are seeing an even more sinister development which is that deal essentially also included DL existing EWR-LHR. Agreed that VS remains. Regardless, this whole EWR-JFK slot deal is very anti-competitive as I see it. It's essentially an agreement between the parties to not compete with each other from their competitor's hub.

Did UA have JFK-LHR flights that were part of the swap with Delta?

SonomaFlyer · Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:09 am

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 46):

[quote=Sightseer,reply=

So that's 2 763s' worth of flying that presumably needs to go elsewhere in the DL/VS JV. Any ideas where that might be?

MCO to Brazil maybe. Cannot remember is it GIG or GRU DL is starting[/quote]

The DL and VS joint venture concerns transatlantic flying between the US and LHR. Unless you have jv language to the contrary, I can't see how DL can claim flying to Brazil would count in a TATL joint venture.

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