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alitaliadc10
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Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:45 am

The Hong Kong Air Transport Licence Authority has today denied Jetstar Hong Kong's appeal and application to operated scheduled air services in HKG.

The ruling was issued today 25 June 2015. There is only 1 A320 left I think that was bound for JS HK

More details in the article:

http://www.airlinehubbuzz.com/jetsta...ng-kong-wings-permanently-clipped/
Orbis non sufficit
 
bbbb
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:47 am

Some other sources:
Reuters - http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...tar-airlines-idUSL3N0ZB3D920150625
Bloomberg - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...k-application-to-fly-from-the-city

Very disappointing for QF but I guess not an unexpected outcome.
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:53 am

The actual document published today that is the source for the above articles

http://www.thb.gov.hk/eng/boards/tra...%20decision%20(Eng)%2025062015.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:55 am

Hopefully this is appealed all the way to the Hong Kong High Court. It is repulsive that the lobbying of entrenched vested interests can overrule the clear public benefits of increased competition and open markets. A shameful, shameful day for Hong Kong.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
chrisp390
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:56 am

Very frustrating, I have no doubt there were things going on behind closed doors between CX and the government to preserve the status quo. Unfortunate for Hong Kong people who would be much better off having a home based true low cost competitor. I hope Jetstar does appeal and if they do indeed not succeed I hope someone in Hong Kong launches a true LCC, one that CX will be unable to do anything about.

[Edited 2015-06-25 04:06:36]
 
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jetfuel
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:02 am

Meanwhile Qantas suffers yet again with more Jetstar losses
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
infinit
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:19 am

This whole saga is surprising given Hong Kong's business-friendly image
 
jacobchoi
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:40 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 3):
A shameful, shameful day for Hong Kong.

No. We do not want a Singapore

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 3):
clear public benefits of increased competition and open markets

Clear public benefits? More like more mainland causing disruption to our streets

There is HK Express filling gap of the HK based LCC, and as if there is no presence to places like Tokyo, Seoul and SE Asia by carriers such as AK and Cebu and Vanilla and Eastar jet? Also, CX/KA have regular discounts if one so wishes (fanfares)

And again, Qantas wants to reap the benefits at the home airports of others (esp one of their fellow alliance members) because they cannot get their act together in Asia and China. Meanwhile, it was being a hypocrite by lobbying against VA.

[Edited 2015-06-25 04:43:03]

The decision “ensures that important Hong Kong economic assets, its air traffic rights, are used for the benefit of the people and the economy of Hong Kong.” and not by sucking a pot of gold that does not rightly belong to them


[Edited 2015-06-25 04:46:15]
 
timtam
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:04 pm

Just goes to show that Hong Kong really is not open for business.

Time for the Australian Government to retaliate and reduce the frequencies between Australia and Hong Kong in the bilateral.
 
PA515
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 3):
Hopefully this is appealed all the way to the Hong Kong High Court. It is repulsive that the lobbying of entrenched vested interests can overrule the clear public benefits of increased competition and open markets. A shameful, shameful day for Hong Kong.

Not really. Qantas doesn't deserve any sympathy, they didn't comply with Hong Kong law.

And Qantas has done it's share of lobbying the Australian Government to exclude competition, on one occasion getting the Australian Government to renege on a reciprocal agreement with New Zealand.

PA515
 
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allrite
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:26 pm

Quoting JacobChoi (Reply 7):
The decision “ensures that important Hong Kong economic assets, its air traffic rights, are used for the benefit of the people and the economy of Hong Kong.” and not by sucking a pot of gold that does not rightly belong to them

Kind of like Hong Kong companies owning major Australian power infrastructure then shifting the profits overseas to minimise paying their fair share of tax. But that's Australia's problem, not Hong Kong's.

A number of Asian LCCs are using the franchise model. It will be interesting to see how they compare with the stand alone LCCs. As you say, Hong Kong is still served by the Jetstar and other franchises. Presumably the economic benefits from that will be less than if they originated from a Hong Kong base rather than multiple foreign bases.
I like artificial banana essence!
 
chrisp390
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:33 pm

Quoting infinit (Reply 6):

They have been losing that image steadily over the past few years and this only reinforces that. They are not what they used to be unfortunately
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:38 pm

Quoting timtam (Reply 8):

Mr Al Baker, is that you ?

Seriously, when was it the norm that any state/nation must give unlimited open access to foreign companies creating puppet branches with faux local ownership ? The worst part is the partnership with MU, which is partially owned by the Beijing government, so in a certain way, directly allow the communist party to interfere with HKG aviation affairs.

Just because Australia loves being so generous doesn't mean everyone else has to follow that modus operandi

Between HK air and the plethora of new LCCs from all over SEasia and NEasia like AirAsia or Peach, it's hard for one to argue that fares are not budget friendly. Even CX is frequently lowering their off peak inventory to LCC level pricing while still offering complete FSC service.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:38 pm

Quoting PA515 (Reply 9):
And Qantas has done it's share of lobbying the Australian Government to exclude competition, on one occasion getting the Australian Government to renege on a reciprocal agreement with New Zealand.

PA515

Not just that but also going back on their agreement to allow NZ to operate domestically in Australia because QF didn't want the competition and because AN was in trouble. NZ then had a choice of buying AN or not being a part of the Oz market. At the time AN seemed like the better option (in hindsight nobody new what a dogs breakfast AN was).
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:49 pm

Sorry, but Jetstar was as old school as it gets with majority share holdings from the old and stuffy China Eastern and the tarnished Ho family from Macau.

Hong Kong needs a proper low cost carrier - HK express is terrible - I hope Air Aisa arrives as a franchise carrier by a proper local entity and not the Ho family.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
[email protected]
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 14):
HK express is terrible

How so?
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bastew
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:51 pm

I think the Australian Govt or Qantas making noise over the denial of a license would be counter productive. It would just go to justify the original reason that the license was denied - that too much of the structure of 'Jetstar HK' was having it's strings pulled from outside HK.
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 3):

Did you actually read the decision ?

What part of the decision was not consistent with their previous rulings which other airlines in HKG have to work with ?

Nothing in the decision I have read is inconsistent with Qantas submissions to the ACCC which showed they controlled and managed all the franchises. Even the Jetstar CEO openly had on her linkendin profile saying she managed those franchises. Who made the purchase decision for the aircraft, who made the decision to setup the airline, not a HKG decision.

I would also remind you that neither Japan or Vietnam permitted Jetstar to operate international flights when the certificates were initially issued. Australia also had many majority foreign owned airlines that were not permitted to operate international services. As all the services applied for from HKG were international services, this should not have been unexpected.

Quoting allrite (Reply 10):

What you are talking about in terms of business structure is very common, last figures I saw from Google they only earned around $75,000 in Australia (which is all they pay tax on). The large mineral companies have setup companies in Singapore to sell Australian iron ore at a low price, avoiding large amounts of royalties and tax, and reselling it.

It has nothing to do with the HKG constitution (Basic Law) which every Hong kong airline has to work with when operating international services.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 3):
A shameful, shameful day for Hong Kong.

There is no shame for Hong Kong here today. Perhaps a loss of face for Qantas and its sycophants but not for Hong Kong.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:58 pm

Why is Hong Kong blamed for something the EU3 and US3 want from their governments?
 
UKtoOzFlyer
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:04 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 5):
Meanwhile Qantas suffers yet again with more Jetstar losses

Not really "more" losses. The current investment cost has already been accounted for on the P&L.
 
PA515
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting UKtoOzFlyer (Reply 20):
Not really "more" losses. The current investment cost has already been accounted for on the P&L.

Has the Jetstar Hong Kong investment been written off, or is it in the books as an asset?

PA515
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:19 pm

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 18):
There is no shame for Hong Kong here today. Perhaps a loss of face for Qantas and its sycophants but not for Hong Kong.

Agreed.

Only someone in serious denial or completely besotted with Qantasland would believe Jetstar HK was actually a HK-based airline.

And given the absolute, unmitigated BS Qantas has dragged the public, its customers and the Australian Government through, not to mention shareholders, I wouldn't go around throwing stones at other jurisdictions applying their own, pretty transparent laws.

But it's all good right because a few accounting tricks here, a few "underlying profits" there, mixed in with a weird capacity dump everywhere, and hey presto, QF Group comes out shimmering with the lustre of free markets and a competitive spirit.

This was amateur hour by Jetstar. Not surprising really. Qantas management are probably happy this venture has quietly died.
 
Airbus_A340
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:53 pm

For those of you against this decision, Jetstar HK were not compliant with HK law, just read the document on all the points they failed to satisfied that all of the other HK airlines have to comply with. Allowing them access to HK under their current structure opens a whole can of worms. I'm happy to see this was resisted. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a true HK low cost carrier, competition is healthy, but I don't think handing business to someone who doesn't comply and play on the same field as the other airlines is fair.
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BestWestern
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 15):

How so?

Suffered a 42 hour delay with them- really bad communication, left onboard for six hours, no food or water for that time on the ground, cabin crew in tears - one resigned whilst on board - mute pilots who during the six hour onboard delay made three announcements . Hello. Delay. Returning to gate.

Taken to hotel at 2:30am, told to be in reception at 7:30, waited till 15:00 to be brought to airport and flight took off at 10am next morning.

Never responded to my complaint letter.

Shall I go on?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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allrite
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
I would also remind you that neither Japan or Vietnam permitted Jetstar to operate international flights when the certificates were initially issued. Australia also had many majority foreign owned airlines that were not permitted to operate international services. As all the services applied for from HKG were international services, this should not have been unexpected.

Kind of difficult for an airline in Hong Kong not to operate an "international" flight (I assume flights to China are treated as international)! You'd have to look to Singapore as the real example.  
Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
What you are talking about in terms of business structure is very common, last figures I saw from Google they only earned around $75,000 in Australia (which is all they pay tax on). The large mineral companies have setup companies in Singapore to sell Australian iron ore at a low price, avoiding large amounts of royalties and tax, and reselling it.

No argument there. My understanding of the argument was that Jetstar HK's structure may not have complied with HK's aviation laws. IANAL and I'm not going to argue about it. The separate argument of whether their structure was economically beneficial to HK seems to me to open another can of worms that could potentially be riddled with inconsistencies in application between the two countries.

As for those criticising Qantas' lobbying just note that hypocrisy is standard big business and government practice here. You shouldn't take it personally. At least we allow foreign companies to own domestic airlines here and effectively control an international one. I don't know why some city state fans need be so bitter about the same thing in their backyards.
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:02 pm

Quoting allrite (Reply 25):
Kind of difficult for an airline in Hong Kong not to operate an "international" flight (I assume flights to China are treated as international)! You'd have to look to Singapore as the real example.

Take the size of HKG out of it, just look at the routes that were requested as part of the application, then look at what HKG did was consistent with other jurisdictions, and ICAO.

You only have to have a look in you own back yard, Singapore Airlines has previously asked to fly pacific routes from Sydney, the application was denied as they are not majority Australian owned. Many Singapore majority owned airlines have operated domestically (Skywest, Rex, Tiger). The decision is entirely consistent with even the way Australia operates.

The other part of your comment is the chicken and egg scenario. If you look at the way Air Asia, Tiger, and even Jetstar have expanded in the region, the easiest way to gain a licence is not to start one from the beginning, it is to buy an existing licence an rebrand it.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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hongkongflyer
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 14):
I hope Air Aisa arrives as a franchise carrier by a proper local entity and not the Ho family.

If the reason stated by HK Government is the true reason they rejected JetStar HK's application,
No franchise carrier will be able to satisfy the requirement, regardless who they partner with,
no matter it is AirAsia HK; Tiger HK; Scoot HK; Peach HK; Vanila HK etc.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting hongkongflyer (Reply 27):

If the reason stated by HK Government is the true reason they rejected JetStar HK's application,
No franchise carrier will be able to satisfy the requirement, regardless who they partner with,
no matter it is AirAsia HK; Tiger HK; Scoot HK; Peach HK; Vanila HK etc.

Maybe the backdoor solution is to have people independently setup an airline locally, then 6 months later the franchise HQ just happen to "acquire" it for "strategic" reasons

Or name it "Geen Jai Airlines" and the govt won't ever refuse it
 
zkncj
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 5):
Meanwhile Qantas suffers yet again with more Jetstar losses

It's all good, Qantas has just committed Jetstar to more loses don't think there venture into the New Zealand regional market is going to be profitable with Q300s at Jetstar pricing.
 
Jetstar315
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:53 pm

Don't forget that Jetstar's model is a "user pays" one and it's things like extra charges for checked-in luggage, overweight hand luggage, food and beverage, inflight entertainment, extra leg room seats etc that make the routes they fly profitable. But that's what it's all about - giving the public choices (their own choices!!!) of what they want and are prepared to pay for. This has been JQ's philosophy from day one and it has resulted in goods profits for the Jetstar arm of Qantas for almost every year they have been in operation since 2004. Don't under estimate Jetstar's ability to run the NZ regional routes at a profit either!
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:07 am

Quoting Jetstar315 (Reply 30):
food and beverage, inflight entertainment,

Might be a bit hard to do these things on a short flight in a Q300!  
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
bbbb
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:15 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 21):
Has the Jetstar Hong Kong investment been written off, or is it in the books as an asset?

It's still on the books at a value of AUD10 million but probably not for much longer.
 
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qfvhoqa
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:30 am

Quoting JacobChoi (Reply 7):
No. We do not want a Singapore

Don't you think Singaporeans have benefited from lower fares from not only 3K but also their competition? Last I checked, fares from HKG are far higher than those from SIN.

Quoting timtam (Reply 8):
Time for the Australian Government to retaliate and reduce the frequencies between Australia and Hong Kong in the bilateral.

How would Australia benefit from that? QF may benefit, but Australia in general would not benefit from higher fares and less access. The government position on aviation policy has not been about protecting Australian airlines' interests, so there's no need for a tit-for-tat response.

Quoting PA515 (Reply 9):
And Qantas has done it's share of lobbying the Australian Government to exclude competition, on one occasion getting the Australian Government to renege on a reciprocal agreement with New Zealand.

Qantas no longer has that level of influence, as seen in the huge increase in access from UAE & China flagged carriers.

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
What part of the decision was not consistent with their previous rulings which other airlines in HKG have to work with ?

Interesting that UO is allowed to operate despite HNA Group holding a major shareholding (though the question of control is more opaque than was for JQHK).

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 24):

Sounds like a terrible experience, but JQHK would not necessarily have been any better. JQ's customer service is also terrible.

Quoting zeke (Reply 26):
...the application was denied as they are not majority Australian owned

Not really - Singaporean carriers have fifth-freedom rights beyond Australia, but the Australian authorities decided that a SIN-SYD-LAX routing would carry little to no through traffic. It was targeted at separate SIN-SYD//SYD-LAX markets and was not in the spirit of the bilateral agreement. Australia also took issue with NW operating JFK-OSA-SYD as NW were trying to take some of the OSA-SYD market instead of through traffic from JFK.
 
zkncj
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:59 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 31):
Might be a bit hard to do these things on a short flight in a Q300!  

Isn't WLG-NSN around 30 minutes on an good day? that would be impressive if they we're able to sell to anyone on that flight  

Maybe they could lock you in an holding pen 30minutes before you flight, that has an JQCafe on the gorund
 
bbbb
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:15 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 34):
Isn't WLG-NSN around 30 minutes on an good day? that would be impressive if they we're able to sell to anyone on that flight  

Maybe they could lock you in an holding pen 30minutes before you flight, that has an JQCafe on the gorund

There's another thread for that discussion.
 
timtam
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:03 am

HK is the real loser out of this, not Qantas.

Yes Qantas doesnt get to setup Jetstar HK and takes a small loss but its immaterial relative to the dollars that are currently pouring into their coffers. Timing is good for Qantas because its doing well at the moment.

Qantas writes off $10m, HK misses out on a 300-400m investment, misses out on lower air-fares, misses out on more visitors, misses out on visitors from new locations, misses out on the extra jobs etc. All because they have determined that Jetstar HK is not a dinky di Hong Kong company.

So instead Swire group gets to extract more dollars out of Hong Kong and send them back to London and a handful of fortunate locals get to benefit from the generosity of Cathay.

I wouldnt be surprised if privately Qantas are quite content with the decision. Times are changing quickly. When Qantas started out with the Jetstar HK idea it seemed a good idea. But Hong Kong is losing its relevance. Jetstar HK was going to be a tough business to do well in and they were going to find protectionist barriers put in their path every step along the way. I think Qantas may have just dodged a bullet.

Jetstar is not a "bottom of the barrel" LCC. It should focus its efforts on the more upmarket economies and leave the more difficult locations. Qantas has a huge success on its hands with Jetstar Japan and would probably prefer to focus its efforts on Japan.

Love the Hong Kong fan boys rejoicing their own goal. Its a classic.
 
Thomaas
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting JacobChoi (Reply 7):

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 3):
A shameful, shameful day for Hong Kong.

No. We do not want a Singapore

EVERYONE would love a Singapore ! Top notch full service airline providing connectivity to the largest markets with all major airlines offering flights to their respective hubs as well as a high concentration of LCCs making travel affordable in and out of the city.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting timtam (Reply 36):

Mr Alan Joyce, is that you ?

If you don't know how to respect business rules, you don't deserve to open a business. The whole city loses if they allow such a flagrant violation to go unnoticed

And HKG is clearing in in excess of 50MM pax a year. No one misses the bottom barrel kayakers that JQHK might bring in.

You sound like such a sore loser. Grow up.
 
timtam
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 38):
The whole city loses if they allow such a flagrant violation to go unnoticed

Flagrant violation............

There is nothing wrong with the business structure. There is nothing flagrant about it. Its a common structure. Its HK administration's choice to not allow it. But lets not deny the facts that this is protectionism. You can hid behind whatever specific laws you like but it remains a protectionist decision to primarily protect Cathay Pacific.

What the decision really means is that the HK administration wants to protect Cathay Pacific from competition. There is nothing wrong with making protectionist decisions, nearly every country does it somewhere to protect some vested interests. The winners are the protected interests, the losers are the consumers who pay higher prices and have less choice - its basic economics. Cathay wins, HK loses.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 38):
You sound like such a sore loser. Grow up.

Your completely misreading the situation. I am happy for the decision. Jetstar HK was going to be huge struggle and I would rather see Qantas putting its resources and capital elsewhere. It has better uses for its capital.

It was worth a punt four years ago but today Jetstar HK is not such a great idea.As mentioned above, Qantas has just dodged a bullet.

The other positive from the decision from a Jetstar perspective is that it effectively locks out the other Asian LCC's out of Hong Kong. So Qantas/Jetstar can deploy its capital and resources elsewhere knowing full well that none of the Jestar competitors will be able to get first mover advantage in HK.
 
sealand
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:26 am

I think the HK authorities has made the right decision. From the most basic element of equity holdings, Qantas initially didn't even try to rope in local shareholders as it was 100% foreign owned. If you compare this to 3K, at least Qantas did try by getting 51% shareholding from a local partner.

When QF realised that it was not as easy they would have imagined, they finally roped in Shun Tak. However, the devil is in the details and although the board composition is majority HK, most operational decisions would have been made by Jetstar in Australia and China Eastern in China.

Approving this venture would set a dangerous precedent that foreign airlines can access HK rights by setting up "subsidiaries"in HK. It is also true that HK residents loses as they misses out on keener competition. Many people would have said that HK has enough foreign airlines to provide competition but the fact is, another local LCC would have provided more competition that forces competitors to drive down fares or differentiate themselves by providing unqiue services.

[Edited 2015-06-25 20:26:36]
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:34 am

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 33):

Which fares in particular are you saying are more expensive ? The fares between Hkg and Australia are higher for two reasons, distance is further, Australian government imposed capacity limit reached for the number of flghts.

Can you direct me to the document which states SQ has rights to operate passenger flights across the Pacific.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
timtam
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:48 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 41):
Can you direct me to the document which states SQ has rights to operate passenger flights across the Pacific.

Its called Virgin Australia  

Like HK has chosen to protect Cathay, Australia has chosen to protect Virgin Australia and Qantas across the Pacific. The losers remain the consumers. Though in the case of Jetstar HK, they were going to establish an airline in Hong Kong, invest several hundred million dollars, employ hundreds of locals, stimulate extra demand and open up new routes. In the case of SQ they were just going to use their existing fleet via Australia. So the economic benefits are not the same.
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:54 am

Quoting timtam (Reply 42):

Sorry you are wrong the Australian government is not protecting Virgin or Qantas, the rules are in place ( which follows ICAO) that international airlines have to be majority Australian owned. Virgin Australia does not operate the Pacific flights it is their international subsidiary.

Hkg is not protecting any airline, it is following its own domestic laws. That is very clear if you read the decision I posted above.
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allrite
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:56 am

Quoting timtam (Reply 36):
Jetstar is not a "bottom of the barrel" LCC. It should focus its efforts on the more upmarket economies and leave the more difficult locations.

  

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 38):
And HKG is clearing in in excess of 50MM pax a year. No one misses the bottom barrel kayakers that JQHK might bring in.

Disappointingly elitist and, I believe, wrong. Unless Hong Kong is only interested in business travellers and not tourists and their shopping and eating dollars? LCC passengers aren't just backpackers any more. I know of and have observed in my travels quite a few well off passengers taking LCCs around the Asian region. The LCC prices, especially at their sale prices, are enablers for additional travel, not replacements for full cost carriers.

The advantage of a franchise operation is that it has reach across multiple countries. Hong Kong Express might have brand recognition in Hong Kong and China, say, but little in Australia, Malaysia and Japan (I don't know their visibility, it's just an example). They advertise a sale to HK and a few people notice, but they have to spend a lot of money advertising outside their normal markets. But when Jetstar or AirAsia has a sale I can tell you that a lot of people notice. And they can feed it through multiple countries, without relying on the consolidator websites (hence can upsell more easily, and they do!).

I'm just looking at a multi hop Asian family adventure next year as the LCC franchises have sales on right now that cover the Australian summer holidays. Snagged some cheap LCC prices to Singapore as a start. Intra Asian flights? The full service carriers are all way too expensive from what my searches show. Maybe they'll have a sale on in a few months. Maybe there's some Asian travel agent who can provide magic fares, though I have no idea where. Do I go from Singapore to Hong Kong, Hong Kong to Korea or Taiwan or Japan? There are quite a few local LCCs, but what are their names? Their fares don't show up on Google Flights or Expedia or... And hey, they only sell their fares 3 months out!

Yes, I'm an av nut so I will go looking harder, but it's much simpler to go to Jetstar.com, AirAsia.com or Scoot/Tiger and see all my options and comparative prices for the different destinations.

Maybe we aren't staying at 5 star hotels (though some of my LCC friends do) or eating at Michelin starred restaurants (though some of my LCC friends do) or buying LVH bags (either real or fake, though some of my LCC friends) do. But we won't be staying at hostels either.

And if we do visit Hong Kong with an franchised LCC that isn't based in Hong Kong then that's less money flowing into the country. I have no issue with Jetstar HK being denied by the rule of law, but maybe Hong Kong is missing out on some opportunities and should explore what it can do to rectify that.
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timtam
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 43):
Sorry you are wrong the Australian government is not protecting Virgin or Qantas, the rules are in place ( which follows ICAO) that international airlines have to be majority Australian owned. Virgin Australia does not operate the Pacific flights it is their international subsidiary.

You missed the smiley.

You have spoken like a good defense lawyer 

Everyone knows the reality of the arrangement. Legally you are correct. But its a sham structure that meets the legal requirements but circumvents the purpose of the laws. Lets not go there though - going right off topic.

Quoting zeke (Reply 43):
Hkg is not protecting any airline, it is following its own domestic laws. That is very clear if you read the decision I posted above.

Laws are put in place to serve a purpose. Your are in denial if you think this decision was not about protecting HK airlines.

Who objected? Why did they object? Did they object because of some altruistic belief that they have a moral responsibility to uphold the integrity of HK law? They objected because Jetstar HK would introduce more competition into the HK market and it was not in their commercial best interests for there to be more competition.
 
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qfvhoqa
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:39 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 41):
Which fares in particular are you saying are more expensive ? The fares between Hkg and Australia are higher for two reasons, distance is further, Australian government imposed capacity limit reached for the number of flghts.

I was not comparing SIN-Australia to HKG-Australia as I realise the distances are further (though PER-HKG is actually shorter than SYD-SIN). When you compare short haul LCC flights, they are cheaper ex-SIN than ex-HKG. Likely because there is higher LCC competition at SIN.
The cheapest SIN-CEB-SIN fare I could find in a random October week was A$141. The cheapest HKG-CEB-HKG fare in the same week was A$229. Similarly SIN-BKI-SIN was A$127, HKG-BKI-HKG was A$240. SIN-PNH-SIN $A194, HKG-PNH-HKG $A325. But I'm sure I could find examples for the opposite where fares ex-HKG are cheaper in a given week. The fact that the LCC penetration at SIN is higher than at HKG indicates that there are more low fare options at SIN.

Quoting zeke (Reply 41):
Can you direct me to the document which states SQ has rights to operate passenger flights across the Pacific.

My mistake, Singaporean carriers have these rights under the US-Singapore bilateral, but were declined these rights by the Singapore-Australia bilateral.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:19 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 29):
It's all good, Qantas has just committed Jetstar to more loses don't think there venture into the New Zealand regional market is going to be profitable with Q300s at Jetstar pricing.

Yawn, I am sure you know better than the entire JQ/QF team that would have analysed and made this decision! Maybe the flights themselves won't make a direct profit, but it will be part of a long term objective.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 38):
And HKG is clearing in in excess of 50MM pax a year. No one misses the bottom barrel kayakers that JQHK might bring in.

You sound like such a sore loser. Grow up.
Quoting allrite (Reply 44):
Disappointingly elitist and, I believe, wrong. Unless Hong Kong is only interested in business travellers and not tourists and their shopping and eating dollars? LCC passengers aren't just backpackers any more. I know of and have observed in my travels quite a few well off passengers taking LCCs around the Asian region. The LCC prices, especially at their sale prices, are enablers for additional travel, not replacements for full cost carriers.

Unfortunately you are correct allrite, too often in previous forums this argument has reduced to "we don't want the Chinese tourists coming here". Some members of this community who likely get to travel often for work or because of their high incomes don't respect the fact that lower-income people have every right to travel as well, and they hate it when something offers these 'bottom barrel kayakers' the opportunity to travel and experience the world like they have had the opportunity to.

Hopefully this is the end of JQHK and we see JQ expand its successful business model elsewhere in Asia to markets that actually want competition.
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:33 am

Quoting timtam (Reply 45):
Everyone knows the reality of the arrangement. Legally you are correct. But its a sham structure that meets the legal requirements but circumvents the purpose of the laws. Lets not go there though - going right off topic.

An important difference is that the decision to acquire A330s and 777 to fly long haul, and the long haul business plans emanated from within the Australian management, in particular a certain manager that was not recognized for his ability when working at QF.

The whole pan asian strategy as QF have described it to the ACCC, and the purchase of the A320 aircraft were not the plans of the HKG management, that is part of an established business model within QF.

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 46):
The cheapest SIN-CEB-SIN fare I could find in a random October week was A$141. The cheapest HKG-CEB-HKG fare in the same week was A$229.

Cebu Pacific have return flights for HKD$588.

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 46):
Similarly SIN-BKI-SIN was A$127, HKG-BKI-HKG was A$240.

Air Asia are advertising all in fares to KK for HK$388.

[Edited 2015-06-25 22:35:08]
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Denied Licence

Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:38 am

Quoting timtam (Reply 45):
But its a sham structure

All for "sham" structures (Jetstar Asia) so long as it benefits the Qantas Group does it ? Or would you claim to have exclusivity to deem what is a "sham" and what isn't.
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