SpaceshipDC10
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Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:20 pm

Any known developments about their start-up since we talked about their anticipated route network?

Anticipated Canada Jetlines Route Network (by CYQL Feb 10 2015 in Civil Aviation)

JetLines Looking To Start In Western Canada (by Hawaiian763 Nov 28 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
cabochris
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:02 am

Trepidation in the group killed them, IMHO.

733s and an operation like Flair or Enerjet will not cut it as a competitive start-up. Gotta make the plunge, acquire and operate a flexible fleet of Ejets.

Capital markets were attracted, ability to secure the money was real. But in the end no equipment was available at the right cost.

Jetlines almost had a deal with Boeing to take on ACs Ejets, but that was scuffled quietly by AC when they got wind of that. Boeing wont talk to Jetlines anymore as they came out after and announced an Airbus equipment product.. silly them. Boeing cashed that 2021 MAX deposit money and said call in 5 years!

When Jetlines was doing their "Road Show" to investors last year, they significantly under estimated working capital needs, and turned investors off by that. Showed their inexperience as a group.

Entering into a reverse takeover with a dodgy venture capital pool company, only to walk out on the deal and head to court was the nail in the coffin for Jetlines. Today, the biz case and plan are being shopped all over the place and everyone is passing..

If someone is out there with proven airline start-up leadership, Ejets, and access to $100MM, then you will see this fly.

[Edited 2015-06-27 17:19:13]
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting cabochris (Reply 1):

interesting. Doesn't sound very professional.

Just found out they have hired a former politics and a former SY CEO.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...da-jetlines-board/article24765822/

[Edited 2015-06-28 09:17:42]
 
FighterPilot
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:15 pm

I don't see Canadian Jetlines getting off the ground, not with their rocky start, nor do I see Jet Naked actually flying either. I think New Leaf may have a chance at starting, but hard to say how long they could operate.

Cal   
*Insert Sound Of GE90 Spooling Up Here*
 
brilondon
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:53 pm

The market is not big enough for all these airlines. It can barely handle the ones that are there. The U.S. is too close for another airline to operate in Canada profitably.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
FighterPilot
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
The market is not big enough for all these airlines. It can barely handle the ones that are there. The U.S. is too close for another airline to operate in Canada profitably.

Yeah there is no way all three of these start ups will survive, let alone... start up...

Cal   
*Insert Sound Of GE90 Spooling Up Here*
 
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longhauler
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting cabochris (Reply 1):
Jetlines almost had a deal with Boeing to take on ACs Ejets, but that was scuffled quietly by AC when they got wind of that.

With a seat mile cost greater than either an Airbus or Boeing, AC would welcome a competitor flying the E190! These lower capacity aircraft are great as high yield feeders, but abysmal in an ULCC! There have been several failed LCCs that flew RJ sized aircraft.

There's a reason why Ryanair, Spirit, Allegiant, etc are successful and Indy Air wasn't!

Quoting cabochris (Reply 1):
Boeing wont talk to Jetlines anymore as they came out after and announced an Airbus equipment product.. silly them. Boeing cashed that 2021 MAX deposit money and said call in 5 years!

This doesn't sound correct. Airframe manufacturers will sell to anyone with a chequebook in hand ... and they LOVE to jump in and sell to an airline where the "other" manufacturer has already made a "done deal".
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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SANFan
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:00 am

I guess I hope for some other solution to the still non-existent YVR-SAN flight...   Darn!

bb
 
flyguy89
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:08 am

I also just could not see how the economics of cross-border flights would make ULCC service remotely possible either. There's just no way a Canadian carrier would ever be able to profitably compete on fare on, say, YVR-LAS against G4's BLI-LAS.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:14 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 8):
There's just no way a Canadian carrier would ever be able to profitably compete on fare on, say, YVR-LAS against G4's BLI-LAS.

Canadian carriers don't all have to compete with Allegiant's fares from BLI. WS and AC have up to 4 daily YVR-LAS nonstops. WS is the largest foreign carrier at LAS.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 8):
There's just no way a Canadian carrier would ever be able to profitably compete on fare on, say, YVR-LAS against G4's BLI-LAS.

Canadian carriers don't all have to compete with Allegiant's fares from BLI. WS and AC have up to 4 daily YVR-LAS nonstops. WS is the largest foreign carrier at LAS.

Oh for sure, however Jetlines was specifically positioning themselves as an ULCC.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:32 am

Their twitter feed is not very active, usually along the lines of thanks for the interest, we're still trying to get money together.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):
The market is not big enough for all these airlines. It can barely handle the ones that are there

I disagree. There is not room for three start ups and a lot of the Jetlines route map is questionable, but there is mostly certainly room on domestic trunk routes where AC/WS enjoy a duopoly of high fares to offer low fares no frills service, but Jetlines never really intended to go for that market.

I say try some routes between YVR, YYC, YYZ, YEG & YUL.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
fly_yhm
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:10 pm

Jetlines and naked jet I don't for see getting off the ground. I do however see New Leaf making a solid run at it.
Although I have tried to reach them on twitter a few times only to not have them reply. IMO that is not good PR.
Hope they get that fixed up. it could just be a case where they don't have a full time social media person.
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canadianpylon
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting fly_yhm (Reply 12):
Jetlines and naked jet I don't for see getting off the ground. I do however see New Leaf making a solid run at it.

Agreed!   

The little bit of info they have put out seems to be fairly solid. Starting off with ACMI aircraft means they can get up and going quickly while they secure funding and generate revenue to start leasing some aircraft. They want to be Allegiant of the north, and there is a market for it.
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
 
ytz
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:23 pm

One thing that always surprises me is why the American discount carriers don't pay for buses up to major Canadian cities. Cheap way to get lots of business. Just charge an at-cost fare for the bus ride.
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:52 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 7):
With a seat mile cost greater than either an Airbus or Boeing, AC would welcome a competitor flying the E190! These lower capacity aircraft are great as high yield feeders, but abysmal in an ULCC! There have been several failed LCCs that flew RJ sized aircraf

There has been few success stories as well, as they can serve smaller market and stay under the radar of big airlines until they are firmly established. Remember Azul. It's about undeserved/overpriced markets, and it wont' be too difficult to unit cost lower than Jazz with an all E-jets operation.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:26 pm

Quoting airbuscanada (Reply 15):
It's about undeserved/overpriced markets, and it wont' be too difficult to unit cost lower than Jazz with an all E-jets operation.

It's a great theory, but where in Canada does one find an underserved/overpriced market of which either AC, PD or WS is not aware?

With the advent of WS Encore and PD, there are virtually no "abused" monopolies any more.

Funny you should mention Jazz with regard to cost, as that is the one the best able to compete. Jazz does not sell it's own seats, it is a Capacity Purchase Agreement with AC. It used to be about CAD .20 / seat mile, but that has been renegotiated, and the rate is no longer in the public domain (it is less than .20). But let's use .20:

Send a 37 seat Dash 8 from YYZ to YYB and it costs only $1191! A 74 seat Q400 YVR-YYJ for just over $500! Try a longer route, say a CRJ 705 from YOW-YWG, for only $13,710. And remember these are TOTAL aircraft costs ... there is no way an E190 is going to get even close to that.

And ... to throw a twist into the mix, AC using Skyregional has a CPA of about 60% that of Jazz ... even cheaper.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 11):

I say try some routes between YVR, YYC, YYZ, YEG & YUL.

This would be my guess, pack 189 seats into a B737-800 and run it on high density routes. Don't pretend the competition doesn't exist, meet it head on!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 6):
With a seat mile cost greater than either an Airbus or Boeing, AC would welcome a competitor flying the E190! These lower capacity aircraft are great as high yield feeders, but abysmal in an ULCC! There have been several failed LCCs that flew RJ sized aircraft.

Well, yes and no. Your argument implies the conclusion that smaller markets that can't support a 73G or 319 service can't thus attract ULCC's. This belies economic reality that smaller markets (invariably with less competition) command higher yields and hence provide an opening (albeit with thinner traffic) for a ULCC product.

Market dynamics are fluid and there can be no artificial capacity floor under which a ULCC cannot work. Maybe the most successful ULCC's to date have been 738/320 operators, but that doesn't mean the next one won't be an E190/195 operator.

There actually is a successful ULCC with E-jets, and that is Azul, competing well against GOL with 738's, so it can be done.

Getting back to Jetlines, no news seems (to me) to be bad news, and it may die on the vine.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting FighterPilot (Reply 5):
Yeah there is no way all three of these start ups will survive, let alone... start up...

I don't know at what stage is Jet Naked, but so far, the only that seems to have a good chance to leave the ground is NewLeaf, indeed.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 8):
There's just no way a Canadian carrier would ever be able to profitably compete on fare on, say, YVR-LAS against G4's BLI-LAS.

Canadian carriers don't all have to compete with Allegiant's fares from BLI. WS and AC have up to 4 daily YVR-LAS nonstops. WS is the largest foreign carrier at LAS.

Plus WS is starting YXX-LAS the fall of this year, must be a market there that isn't crossing the border at all....
 
brilondon
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:46 pm

Quoting cabochris (Reply 1):
733s and an operation like Flair or Enerjet will not cut it as a competitive start-up. Gotta make the plunge, acquire and operate a flexible fleet of Ejets

No they don't have the capitalization for that.

Quoting FighterPilot (Reply 3):
I think New Leaf may have a chance at starting, but hard to say how long they could operate

Yeah...not they don't.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 14):

One thing that always surprises me is why the American discount carriers don't pay for buses up to major Canadian cities. Cheap way to get lots of business. Just charge an at-cost fare for the bus ride.

Greyhound anyone?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
It's a great theory, but where in Canada does one find an underserved/overpriced market of which either AC, PD or WS is not aware?

The real problem is the sparse population. 90% of the Canadian population lives within 200KM of the U.S. border. The majority being in southern Ontario, southern Quebec, and southern B.C which all are in close proximity to the border. All able to access major U.S. airports. But I try to support Canadian airlines when it is feasible.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: Canada Jetlines - What's The Situation?

Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:02 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 14):

It's generally handled by Airport operators.

There are scheduled bus services that directly goes to Airport terminals at BTV/PGB from Montreal and BUF from Tornoto and SEA/BLI from Vancouver. Most of these are organized and sometimes subsidized by the local airport authorities.

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