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nitepilot79
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FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:17 am

 
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Sepultallica
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:00 pm

Eh, my bad.

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=19116

[Edited 2015-06-28 07:03:52]
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tb727
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:08 pm

Seeing how these were tied down on another carrier, which was also how National tied them down, I don't know how this didn't happen sooner. That crew was a good group of guys.

I'm kinda of surprised the fine wasn't a little bit more.
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enilria
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:47 pm

$77,000 is like one tire on that vehicle, much less the people's lives. Sad...
 
airtran737
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:54 pm

It's an absolutely insane fine. Basically $11,000 per person. National had no business hauling those vehicles because they had no idea what they were doing. WO, K4, and 5Y came up with procedures along with the USAF for how to haul them. Over 3,000 were carried to the region with no problems. When this happened, National didn't have 747's Fast forward a few years and the vehicles were coming home. Same players, same procedures, no problems, but then comes National. Poor training, and ignoring the Boeing W&B Manual killed those people. There's nothing more that you can argue. They were improperly secured, and when a problem was noticed, they did not take proper action to fix it. National deserves a lot more than a $77,000 fine. They deserve a fine in the millions of dollars, and to have their certificate revoked. Furthermore, the fact that they want to meet with the FAA to discuss the fine, shows just how low and disgusting their ownership group is.
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B777LRF
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:23 pm

Agree with the above. They should have their AOC pulled, and the board of directors sent to jail for a couple of years.
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zanl188
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 2):
I'm kinda of surprised the fine wasn't a little bit more.

$77K is a drop in the bucket. Probably spent that much in fuel & per diem for this flight.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 6):
They were improperly secured, and when a problem was noticed, they did not take proper action to fix it. National deserves a lot more than a $77,000 fine. They deserve a fine in the millions of dollars, and to have their certificate revoked. Furthermore, the fact that they want to meet with the FAA to discuss the fine, shows just how low and disgusting their ownership group is.

I disagree for only one reason, the current regulations are weak and useless. Training requirements are weak and useless.

To demand after the fact that they be better than the regulations require isn't proper.

So lets fix it, so that people need real training, and are held to real standards. So that the paperwork isn't the only thing that counts when securing a load. Actual securing of the load properly being required. Loadmaster being required to know how to do more than write numbers down.

More than that, Cargo Pilots need to know this stuff too. The plane is their responsiblity. The loadmaster needs to do the work correctly, but the pilots need to double check the work. You think with their life on the line they would care more.

This case was all about a great many people trained in paperwork, but apparently had never so much a minute of real instruction on how to keep loads in place. No one noticed the straps were barely good enough for a car, and placed badly... much less a very heavy armored truck. Oh and on a nice aluminum sled because rubber on aluminum is too grippy and might keep 15+ tons from parking itself in the tail. Easy to load that way, but again, got to plan correctly for a load... thats easy to move by design.
 
N747PE
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:00 pm

It's so sad that almost any real safety reform is written in human blood. RIP guys. Hope we as an industry can learn from this and make sure it does not happen again.
 
dfwjim1
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:21 pm

A little off topic but did the crew who loaded this plane also die in the crash?
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 7):
and the board of directors sent to jail for a couple of years.

Why would they be sent to jail? Their job isn't to come up with training procedures or secure the load. I bet you none of the directors on the boards of any of the major companies know the loading procedures of a 747, nor should they. They deal with the numbers, not which chain should be connected to what piece.
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tb727
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 11):
A little off topic but did the crew who loaded this plane also die in the crash?

Yes they did. I knew the loadmaster, he loaded and unloaded my plane many times at YIP.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 9):
More than that, Cargo Pilots need to know this stuff too. The plane is their responsiblity. The loadmaster needs to do the work correctly, but the pilots need to double check the work. You think with their life on the line they would care more.

I always checked straps but after National we were hauling very difficult, awkward and heavy loads(Silverado rear axles) out of MMLO and all 3 of us were triple checking every strap, every leg. This accident scared the crap out of us. I'll always remember where I was and what I was doing when I got the call from my dispatcher telling me that it happened.

Those pilots were true freight pilots too, it's a shame but sometimes you just get into the every day of things and don't think about it, especially when you have time constraints. Always someone on the other end of the line, hurry up this, hurry up that driven by the dollar. Just take it for granted that it's always worked and you just go.
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 9):
To demand after the fact that they be better than the regulations require isn't proper.

Many aviation regulations are bare minimums, so I disagree, often times people need to do better than the minimums or leave themselves with no margins.
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wjcandee
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:17 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 6):
Furthermore, the fact that they want to meet with the FAA to discuss the fine, shows just how low and disgusting their ownership group is.

Hey, Pal.

This is the Murray certificate; is it still the Murray ownership group? I would have thought that in all those years of hauling auto parts that they would have developed the appropriate expertise and procedures. WO was a professional bunch; what a shame all that expertise was dispersed. As I recall, it was actually WO that figured out how to load an extra MRAP on their 747s, and they developed very-specific procedures on how to load it and how to secure it properly.

I was never comfortable with the idea of Murray/National moving so quickly into carrying passengers after carrying just cargo their whole existence, and I wasn't a fan of the idea of them getting the 757 Combi award. I admired their pluck in taking steps to obtain the aircraft, but I hoped that the contract would just stay with ATI, which has enough tragedy in its history hopefully to keep them on their toes. And of course it did stay with them.

The FIne Air accident should have been enough to scare the crap out of people; heck, there it was jeans and such as the cargo. But I guess people forget quickly and there is of course a tendency to think that WE would never make such a stupid mistake. Also, a lot of practical people who have a lot of practical experience often dislike having to deal with engineers (I myself like 'em), but when something as complex as developing a load plan for vehicles like that is the issue, one really does need to figure out the forces at work in normal ops and then at the most extreme. And that means getting some engineers involved. After all, that's how they build the planes, why not do the same with the stuff that is being put in the planes and can destroy the planes and kill people.

The engineers are going to be called in to figure out what happened after a Bad Day. That someone doesn't think to get them involved beforehand always blows my mind. This isn't a "This should work" kind of a business, as some people seem to need to learn over and over.

[Edited 2015-06-30 02:24:10]
 
B777LRF
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:17 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
Why would they be sent to jail? Their job isn't to come up with training procedures or secure the load. I bet you none of the directors on the boards of any of the major companies know the loading procedures of a 747, nor should they. They deal with the numbers, not which chain should be connected to what piece.

Do you work for a bank? Only asking, because that's the worst case of leadership fleeing responsibility I've seen since 2009.

Let me clarify: The board of directors of an airline, as well as the post holders, are the people who ultimately hold responsibility for what goes on in their organisation. If they haven't a clue what goes on at the shop floor, so to speak, they have no business being in the position they are in. But, even so, they are still ultimately responsible.

I'm not saying they should know every detail about loading a 747, what I am arguing is that it's their responsibility to ensure the people who ARE carrying out those tasks are adequately trained and equipped, that it has management oversight in place which DOES know what it's doing, and that the company does not mess about in a type of business they are not suited for - regardless of how juicy a government contract might have been. The report clearly states that was not the case, hence the leadership have failed to live up to their responsibilities. Up against the wall, off with their heads. Figuratively speaking, of course.
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tb727
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:24 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 15):
This is the Murray certificate; is it still the Murray ownership group?

No, Preston retired and moved up north.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 15):
I wasn't a fan of the idea of them getting the 757 Combi award.

They are gone, they never even flew one and just sold them off to ATI.
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wjcandee
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:58 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 17):
They are gone, they never even flew one and just sold them off to ATI.

Right. I probably wasn't clear. I didn't want National to get the award and was delighted when ATI got it. Glad National was able to sell the combis to them. For a while, a whole bunch of folks were talking about ordering the combi conversion in an effort to get that contract. The combi is essentially a one-mission aircraft b/c there's not a lot of demand for them outside military charter. (I think a band used the ATI DC8 combi years back for a tour, but I don't think there's much more demand than that, and, IIRC, the civilian regulations are tougher about combis now.)

Giving it some more thought, although the incumbents certainly shouldn't be the only folks who can do these kind of specialized military missions, I think that the military should tread very carefully when moving away from a carrier that has demonstrated competence in the mission. The MRAP mission is one example, the combi mission is another. It's specialized, has particular quirks, and it ain't for everyone. Just like ferries. The FAA changed the 3-engine ferry rules, for example, after ATI's woefully-inadequate procedures were brought to light after their tragedy. The lack of knowledge in that cockpit about the requirements of that mission was just tragic and ATI's procedures were rightly castigated. Now, there are special training and procedures required for this kind of mission, the need for which should have been obvious to anyone with a brain. Flying a combi aircraft isn't as specialized as doing a 3-engine takeoff in a DC8, but I will bet dollar to donuts that the folks who do it every day into remote airfields have knowledge born of experience that keeps the passengers and cargo safer than they would be with a newcomer like National.



[Edited 2015-06-30 21:59:39]

[Edited 2015-06-30 22:05:43]

[Edited 2015-06-30 22:06:42]
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:06 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 16):
Do you work for a bank? Only asking, because that's the worst case of leadership fleeing responsibility I've seen since 2009.

No, a cargo company I'm sure you see everyday.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 16):
Let me clarify: The board of directors of an airline, as well as the post holders, are the people who ultimately hold responsibility for what goes on in their organisation. If they haven't a clue what goes on at the shop floor, so to speak, they have no business being in the position they are in. But, even so, they are still ultimately responsible.

Their job is to set broad policies and objectives along with deal with financial stuff. NOT to deal with loading techniques of an aircraft.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 16):
I'm not saying they should know every detail about loading a 747, what I am arguing is that it's their responsibility to ensure the people who ARE carrying out those tasks are adequately trained and equipped, that it has management oversight in place which DOES know what it's doing, and that the company does not mess about in a type of business they are not suited for - regardless of how juicy a government contract might have been. The report clearly states that was not the case, hence the leadership have failed to live up to their responsibilities. Up against the wall, off with their heads. Figuratively speaking, of course.

You think management is going to tell the board they aren't ready for the contract? No. They were probably told they would have it all figured out by the time it was time to go. The responsibility lies with management, not with the board.
Pat
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737tdi
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:34 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 16):
Let me clarify: The board of directors of an airline, as well as the post holders, are the people who ultimately hold responsibility for what goes on in their organisation. If they haven't a clue what goes on at the shop floor, so to speak, they have no business being in the position they are in. But, even so, they are still ultimately responsible.

Don't confuse "board of directors" with a CEO, Vice-Presidents or senior management. The board of directors for my airline is comprised of leaders from many different fields. Heck one was a football player for the Dallas Cowboys (He just recently passed away). These people have no idea what goes on in the everyday management of the airline. I would be shocked if most of them could tell you the difference of our aircraft models.
 
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:46 am

Quoting N747PE (Reply 10):
It's so sad that almost any real safety reform is written in human blood.

CAAs are colloquially referred to as "Tombstone Agencies" for a reason.  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:53 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 20):
Don't confuse "board of directors" with a CEO, Vice-Presidents or senior management.

Right.

"board of directors" doesn't mean "senior management," but Reply 7 would seem not to make that distinction. The directors are going to review whether the 744 should be purchased, not how it's loaded...
 
b747400erf
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:20 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 17):

They are gone, they never even flew one and just sold them off to ATI.

Are you sure? I thought they flied troops on defense contracts. The picture library has them operating with a Camber callsign. I remember reading one 757 was doing routes from DXB to Afghanistan.

[Edited 2015-06-30 23:22:54]
 
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tb727
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:12 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 23):
Are you sure? I thought they flied troops on defense contracts. The picture library has them operating with a Camber callsign. I remember reading one 757 was doing routes from DXB to Afghanistan.

Yes, they are gone. If there is one, it's just owned by them and not flying. They were converted and then flew up to OSC and sat there. The DXB plane is back. They are just doing charter work with straight pax planes now for college teams and military, they just got ETOPs as well.
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wjcandee
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:45 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 23):
They are just doing charter work with straight pax planes now for college teams and military, they just got ETOPs as well.

I think he was confused between 757s and 757-combis, which is what you were talking about.

I know I shouldn't probably be saying this, because it's just a feeling, but I have to say that I'm not happy that they are flying passengers. Arrow Air wasn't all that long ago, and yet everybody seems to have forgotten the lessons that should have been learned from that accident. Any airline isn't as good as any other airline. Just isn't. Because it's made up of people, and even people who are doing everything they were shown to do aren't necessarily doing everything they need to do, and most of them don't know the difference. How safe is safe enough? How good is good enough?

I would fly happily on Dan McKinnon's airline. I would fly happily on Ed Daly's airline. I would fly happily on George Mikelsons's airline. I would fly happily on Connie's airline. Dan and George were big plane pilots themselves. Ed was, well, Ed. Legendary. And Ed respected his pilots. Same for Connie. The rest of these guys, who knows what you're getting.

[Edited 2015-07-01 22:51:47]
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:55 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 12):
I always checked straps but after National we were hauling very difficult, awkward and heavy loads(Silverado rear axles) out of MMLO and all 3 of us were triple checking every strap, every leg. This accident scared the crap out of us. I'll always remember where I was and what I was doing when I got the call from my dispatcher telling me that it happened.

We just had a DoD flight take a 4 hour delay due to cargo buildup and strapping. That plane was not moving until that cargo was in there the right way.
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airtran737
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:54 am

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 11):
A little off topic but did the crew who loaded this plane also die in the crash?
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 14):
I would have thought that in all those years of hauling auto parts that they would have developed the appropriate expertise and procedures. WO was a professional bunch; what a shame all that expertise was dispersed. As I recall, it was actually WO that figured out how to load an extra MRAP on their 747s, and they developed very-specific procedures on how to load it and how to secure it properly.

I will tell you this now that WO is gone. When the gentlemen who came up with the 6th MRAP idea pitched it to the COO, the rest of us said no. He was trying to make a name for himself in the office, which he did. I was in CHS and helped load the first 5. When number 6 came on, we all walked off. We refused to sign the weight and balance, and made it clear via email that we were against it. We strapped the first 5 in as our procedure dictated and left the flight. They used management pilots on that flight as well. Post National, we all in the industry learned that Boeing never provided validation number for the seat tracks. How do you tie down center loads and get the best angles? Go for the seat tracks. Guess what their aren't a lot of in the door position where number 6 went? Yup.....seat tracks. WO put the 6th one on, got it to OAIX, and put out an arrogant statement about how we did it and nobody else could. The next day our POI and PMI were in the office asking just how we did it, and said to never do it again. That was the only time that I was at WO, where I questioned what we were doing. Besides, adding a 6th one on the plane meant that every 5th flight we would have lost a flight of revenue. We were banking around $800,000 of profit from those flights, and didn't want to lose any revenue. It was the one time where I (and my co-loadmasters) were completely upset with what the company was doing. When I took over running the department at WO, I vowed that we never would do anything like that again, and we never did.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
wjcandee
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:00 am

Thanks for the inside info. Very interesting. I didn't realize what an issue the sixth one was, and I never heard about it after the press release. Now I know why.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: FAA Wants National To Be Fined For Bagram Crash

Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:44 am

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 26):
I will tell you this now that WO is gone. When the gentlemen who came up with the 6th MRAP idea pitched it to the COO, the rest of us said no. He was trying to make a name for himself in the offic... ...I vowed that we never would do anything like that again, and we never did.

Bravo for taking that stand and thank you for relating the story.

[Edited 2015-07-02 23:32:49]
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