wingnutmn
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DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:57 pm

Rumor has it that DL is returning a 744 to service. If true, is this a summer only thing, or a perminant addition?

Wingnut
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
Triple7Lr
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:27 pm

DL could use a spare. The 744 has had tons of MTC issues. Instead of cancellations or extreme delays (ie next dat departure) they would be able to ship swap and recover a lot faster.
 
audidudi
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:42 pm

I'm not sure whether any of the three aircraft which were sent to MZJ at the end of Sept last year, were ever permanently retired. One or more might have the longest leadtime before a heavy mx check, thereby allowing the other 13 birds to continue flying until one or more of those comes due for heavy mx, and then can be permanently withdrawn from service!
Thoughts anyone?
 
BravoEchoNov
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:47 pm

Yes they did return one into service as an extra for the heavy Summer schedule.
 
audidudi
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting BravoEchoNov (Reply 3):

N671US was sent to MZJ on 09/30 last year and is still there
N672US was sent to MZJ on 10/01 last year and is still there
N676NW was sent to MZJ on 10/01 last year and is still there
.
Therefore none have returned to service for the summer schedule!
 
wingnutmn
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:45 pm

671US is currently flying as flight 9979 from MJZ-MSP.

Wingnut
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
questions
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:48 pm

What is the work required to put the aircraft back in service?
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 6):
What is the work required to put the aircraft back in service?

Gotta be the difference in time & service hours compared to any checks due plus any company checks...

I bet the parked them in service-ready state though, not sure about newest IFE/WiFi however...
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
michman
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 1):
The 744 has had tons of MTC issues.

Do you work for DL?
 
rta
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:49 pm

Great news, even if its only for the summer.
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting rta (Reply 9):
Great news, even if its only for the summer.

Agreed. I booked a trip recently CMH-DTW-CDG-LED and on the DTW-CDG route I broke my soft rule of always choosing ATL for Transatlantic flights (for a number of valid reasons) to get the 744. Alas it was much the same as the A330 or B767 or B777 I usually get but did enjoy it. As it turns out I'll probably get one more 744 when I go to AMS in September.

https://instagram.com/p/3CjsFkIx6_/?taken-by=rickvanover
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
BravoEchoNov
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting audidudi (Reply 4):
Therefore none have returned to service for the summer schedule!

Nope. N671US was taken out of retirement. And you should never trust FlightAware as a source.  
 
Transpac787
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:29 pm

The return of N671US is not so much for the peak summer schedule, as it is for N664US that was *severely* damaged by hail and turbulence on DTW-ICN last week.

Being a 1989-built 744, it was determined that the damage was so significant, the necessary repairs were not economically viable. I don't know for sure, but I've heard from a few 744 people that Delta is working with Boeing to get a ferry certificate, to fly ship 6304 directly to the desert, on a rather inglorious final flight.

While I have no background in aircraft maintenance, nor do I have an A&P... I'd be very surprised if 6304 is airworthy in its current condition. I only saw a few pics of it, but the plane was totally trashed. Radome peppered into oblivion, wing and stab leading edges dented and ruptured, spider-webbed front windscreens.

The plane looked like it had just done a combat sortie, not a commercial service flight.  
 
audidudi
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting BravoEchoNov (Reply 11):

It appears that it just departed the desert today according to "wingnutmn"'s reply above! It certainly hasn't been flying for the "heavy Summer schedule" as it's been in MZJ since 09/30/14, unless you have something to prove otherwise! Just saying!
 
audidudi
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):

Was N664US ferried back to DTW from ICN then, as you said the damage occured on the outbound flight? If so, what happened to the 376 odd passengers who are usually booked on the flight? I know how full it gets as I have flown the route several times this year already!
 
Transpac787
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:52 pm

Quoting audidudi (Reply 14):
Was N664US ferried back to DTW from ICN then, as you said the damage occured on the outbound flight?

The plane made it to ICN; the damage occurred on descent and approach into ICN.

As far as I know, 6304 has not left ICN since the event flight. It would not surprise me it's entirely un-airworthy in its current condition.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:36 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):

Well that explains it. Ouch, sad news on 6304. Not a very glorious way to end a career.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:10 am

Just saw a few Instagram photos from someone in the aviation industry. Radome is totally destroyed, wings are in very bad shape, no good views of the engines but they can't be much better. Sad end for that plane, in that condition I'm not sure it'll even be able to ferry out of ICN.
Now you're flying smart
 
BiggerJetsPlz
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 16):
Well that explains it. Ouch, sad news on 6304. Not a very glorious way to end a career.

at 26 years old and with 108,000 flight hours, N664US's retirement isn't nearly as inglorious as N676NWs at 12 years and 50,000 hours.
 
B757Forever
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:10 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 15):
As far as I know, 6304 has not left ICN since the event flight.

You are correct. 6304 is still in ICN with work continuing towards getting it ferried back to the USA. It's in very bad condition. I've worked quite a few aircraft with hail damage, I've never personally seen one with the extreme damage that 6304 has. It's ugly.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:38 am

Nose picture from Instagram here:


That's pretty devastating damage--it's going to painful to repair even for a ferry permit. How the hell did a senior 747 crew let themselves get into that kind of weather? Bad ATC in Seoul?

[Edited 2015-06-28 19:56:56]
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
barney captain
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting B757Forever (Reply 19):
You are correct. 6304 is still in ICN with work continuing towards getting it ferried back to the USA. It's in very bad condition. I've worked quite a few aircraft with hail damage, I've never personally seen one with the extreme damage that 6304 has. It's ugly.

I've googled and looked on Avherald and can't find any mention of this. Does anyone have a link to the pic's?
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:46 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 21):

+1. I cannot find anything anywhere.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:51 am

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:58 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 20):
How the hell did a senior 747 crew let themselves get into that kind of weather? Bad ATC in Seoul?

I'm wondering the same thing. What would make them continue into weather like that? I'm fairly certain their chief pilot would rather see an ATC deviation than a destroyed aircraft.
Now you're flying smart
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:00 am

Whoa!!!

Those pics are insane.
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:14 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 25):

What is insane is a 747 write off, on an airplane that then continued to fly to its destination, and then the airline pulling a 747 out of retirement to fill in for the airplane.

I guess we have to assume this a write off considering the airplane has yet to move and a new airplane has been retired to pick up the slack? Any news on if this is a permanent addition for the rest of the fleets time, or if this event would accelerate the fleets retirement.
Boiler Up!
 
n7371f
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:31 am

Ironic that Chinese ATC may have been less than helpful as 6304 was Spirit of Beijing at Northwest.
 
rta
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:41 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 28):
According to photo captions, Chinese ATC initially denied requests to vector around weather.

Can they be partly responsible for the damage?
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:52 am

Quoting rta (Reply 29):
Can they be partly responsible for the damage?

Knowing the Chinese.... I doubt it.    

If this was in domestic airspace, I would think so!

I'm surprised the crew didn't declare an emergency and get the hell out of there--ATC be damned.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
Transpac787
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:59 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 20):
How the hell did a senior 747 crew let themselves get into that kind of weather? Bad ATC in Seoul?

I've only heard one side of the story, but I'm told that their requests for vectors around the storm, as well as their requests for altitude changes, were both denied by Chinese ATC.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:10 am

Looks to me like Delta is going to need a lot of serviceable fiberglass panels and a radome from an aircraft that has already been permanently retired to the desert. The engines are going to need to be boroscoped for damage as well as some first stage fan blades may need to be changed. There could be damage and the engine may have excessive vibration due to hail ingestion and engines may need to be changed. This aircraft will require a lot of work, including inspection and parts replacement before any one time ferry permit will be issued. Delta owns this aircraft. I do not know how much money Delta wants to put into making the aircraft serviceable, just to fly to the desert. Also, will Delta be reimbursed by the insurance company if the cost is excess of the deductible. It may be a permanent resident at Seoul for quite some time.
Just as a point of information. Northwest Airlines had a 747, N627US, that had the nose gear collapse on landing in Guam and that aircraft was scrapped in Guam.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:17 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 31):
I've only heard one side of the story, but I'm told that their requests for vectors around the storm, as well as their requests for altitude changes, were both denied by Chinese ATC.

That reminds me of a Northwest Airlines Boeing 720B, N724US, that the pilot requested ATC to let fly around a thunderstorm over the Everglades in Florida in the 1960s. They were denied the request and flew through the storm and the aircraft was torn apart and crashed.   

[Edited 2015-06-28 21:18:49]
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:37 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 31):
I've only heard one side of the story, but I'm told that their requests for vectors around the storm, as well as their requests for altitude changes, were both denied by Chinese ATC.

Without knowing any details on this flight, I would offer this opinion: Flying in this part of the world for 20 years exercises your sphincter muscles a lot more than flying in good Ole USA. It's a little mind boggling on how ATC in some of these countries operate. We used to call them the controllers of 'no plan B'. Even something as simple as a request for a weather deviation can cause confusion and sounds of anxiety with those on the radar scopes. In my carer we deviated without permission (in this part of the world) several times due to lack of prompt clearances or clearances period. Fortunately the company sided with us and smoothed over the concern of one of their foreign ministries.

In this case of hail damage, I can picture this captain, near the terminal phase of his flight, maybe down a little on flight planned fuel, waiting for Chinese ATC to give him clearance to deviate. However, they are not forthcoming and deviation south or east (see the flight track) is out of the question as you might get an SA-6 up your butt from a crazed president in N. Korea so you pick your best option based on experience. Sometimes it doesn't work like you want, but nobody was hurt (as I understand).

I can't speak for other pilots, but during a 40 year career in the AF and airlines, I've had hail damage 3 times, not as bad as this appears, but enough damage to ground the aircraft for a while. In 2 of those cases, I had no idea there was hail in the vicinity (but was deviating around cells) until I heard it hitting the aircraft. The third case, I had no idea we had hit anything other than rain, until I looked at the aircraft on the ground.

Again, this is just my unofficial rant based on experience and others may have different opinions.

[Edited 2015-06-28 21:40:08]
 
factsonly
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:45 am

Glad everyone was safe, for severe thunderstorms can kill:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 32):
That reminds me of a Northwest Airlines Boeing 720B, N724US, that the pilot requested ATC to let fly around a thunderstorm over the Everglades in Florida in the 1960s. They were denied the request and flew through the storm and the aircraft was torn apart and crashed.   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_705

also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLM_CityHopper_Flight_431
 
rta
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:52 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 31):
Just as a point of information. Northwest Airlines had a 747, N627US, that had the nose gear collapse on landing in Guam and that aircraft was scrapped in Guam.   

BA's G-BNLL was also scrapped at JNB, where it was damaged. I wonder what is considered when choosing to repair it for a ferry flight or to scrap it on the spot.
 
aeropix
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:36 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 24):
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 20):
How the hell did a senior 747 crew let themselves get into that kind of weather? Bad ATC in Seoul?

I'm wondering the same thing. What would make them continue into weather like that? I'm fairly certain their chief pilot would rather see an ATC deviation than a destroyed aircraft.

Guys, give the crew a break. Hail can be impossible to detect or avoid under certain circumstances.

Hail most often gets ejected from the thunderstorm tops and descends some miles downwind of the storm core.
The hail is not nearly as reflective as water, and may not even paint a return on the airborne weather radar, particularly the Rockwell / Collins Multiscan units are notorious for deleting radar images that the "logic" determines to be "non-threat weather"
Therefore, the crew was most likely avoiding the storm cores, or going between closely spaced cells, and can easily encounter hail with no warning or indications whatsoever on board.

Don't be so quick to judge.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:16 am

Quoting aeropix (Reply 36):
Guys, give the crew a break. Hail can be impossible to detect or avoid under certain circumstances.

Hail most often gets ejected from the thunderstorm tops and descends some miles downwind of the storm core.
The hail is not nearly as reflective as water, and may not even paint a return on the airborne weather radar, particularly the Rockwell / Collins Multiscan units are notorious for deleting radar images that the "logic" determines to be "non-threat weather"
Therefore, the crew was most likely avoiding the storm cores, or going between closely spaced cells, and can easily encounter hail with no warning or indications whatsoever on board.

Don't be so quick to judge.

Ah thank you for the reality check. Not being an airline pilot the particulars of storm behavior and airborne wx radar can escape me at times. I guess it is easy to jump to the "what were they thinking" conclusions. Unfortunate situation regardless, suppose it doesn't help to throw pilots (presumably very good ones given employer and equipment) under the bus.
Now you're flying smart
 
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hilram
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:50 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 34):

This highligts an interesting dilemma that pilots must face: Obey ATC, or possibly risk the aircraft and the lives of your passengers! What would the legal implications have been if the Delta Crew disobeyed ATC, and turned the plane around? I mean, modern Aircraft have their own weather radar for a reason. If no autonomy is allowed in the cockpit, we might as well remove it on the airplanes, and save weight and money!
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
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gdg9
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:07 pm

What date did this occur? No help here - http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/n664us/
@dfwtower
 
PanAm1971
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:29 pm

I regard the denial of vectors around the storm by Chinese ATC as a serious incident. I'm surprised there was not more on the major news outlets about this. It could have been a deadly disaster. The Chinese have some explaining to do.
 
wingnutmn
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:36 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 38):

The Captain is protected under emergency authority. You need to declare an emergency and then state the nature of the emergency to deviate from any ATC assignments or regulations. Not every thunderstorm has hail, and not every hail shafts is in the same spot of a storm.

I would have to imagine that once the hail made it past the radome, it was pelting the forward pressure bulkhead. If that is damaged, it won't be flying to the US for any retirement ceremony. That must have been ridiculousy loud in row 1 and 2.

Wingnut
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
audidudi
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 39):

According to FlightAware, it operated DL159 on June 15th, arriving on June 16th. Not sure what the ATL>AMS flight is on there for, as it departed on June 15th also, so is an error!

Interestingly, FlightAware also shows that DL 158 operated on June 17th, which would have been the return flight for N664US, so I'm confused. Did DL have a spare bird in Asia somewhere that they ferried to ICN in time to fly the ICN>DTW flight on the 17th?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N664US

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...8/history/20150617/0125Z/RKSI/KDTW
 
BigSaabowski
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:30 pm

 
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n901wa
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:31 pm

Hi NWAROOSTER. Some info on 6304, All 4 engs are Ok, Boros checks good. Lots of panels were sent over from the 2 747-412BCF in VCV. Its Getting back in shape slowly. N901WA
 
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gdg9
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:37 pm

Quoting n901wa (Reply 44):
Getting back in shape slowly

For a ferry home presumably? Rather than return to revenue service?
@dfwtower
 
airxliban
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:54 pm

the instagram photo indicates that the date was June 17th.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
audidudi
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 21):
Quoting Curiousflyer (Reply 22):

As you reported, there's nothing on avherald for that date. I find that interesting also! They don't normally miss incidents like this.

http://avherald.com/h?list=&opt=0&offset=20150620192553%2B4881ceea
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting aeropix (Reply 36):

I don't think anybody is being critical of the flight crew--clearly the airplane landed safely. What I think people are pointing out is that the Chinese ATC was being difficult/ridiculous and the flight crew didn't challenge their orders. At the end of the day, the Captain is in charge. Period.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
Flighty
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 41):
I would have to imagine that once the hail made it past the radome, it was pelting the forward pressure bulkhead. If that is damaged, it won't be flying to the US for any retirement ceremony. That must have been ridiculousy loud in row 1 and 2.

Imagine the pucker factor involved. Holy moly.

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 40):
I regard the denial of vectors around the storm by Chinese ATC as a serious incident. I'm surprised there was not more on the major news outlets about this. It could have been a deadly disaster. The Chinese have some explaining to do.

Good post.

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