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ssteve
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:11 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 40):
The Chinese have some explaining to do.

Request denied.

  
 
B757Forever
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:37 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 48):
What I think people are pointing out is that the Chinese ATC was being difficult/ridiculous and the flight crew didn't challenge their orders

My understanding is that there was dialogue between the DL crew and Chinese ATC for 7 minutes with multiple requests to alter course and/or altitude. All requests were denied by Chinese ATC.
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32andBelow
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting B757Forever (Reply 51):
My understanding is that there was dialogue between the DL crew and Chinese ATC for 7 minutes with multiple requests to alter course and/or altitude. All requests were denied by Chinese ATC.

Is China not like the USA where the flight crew has final say in what they can deem be for safety?
 
ss278
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:09 pm

ATC problem in Chinese airspace. Crew repeatedly asked for vectors around a storm. Not granted for several minutes. That damage is what you got. Nice bit of flying by the crew I'd say.
 
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hilram
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:28 pm

The ATC crew should get a reprimand. 7 minutes? What is that about? Pride? "We initially said no so going back on that will make us seem weak"

[Edited 2015-06-29 14:48:53]
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting B757Forever (Reply 51):

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 48):
What I think people are pointing out is that the Chinese ATC was being difficult/ridiculous and the flight crew didn't challenge their orders

My understanding is that there was dialogue between the DL crew and Chinese ATC for 7 minutes with multiple requests to alter course and/or altitude. All requests were denied by Chinese ATC.

That is absolutely ridiculous! The Chinese should be held responsible but it'll never happen...  

If that's true--I'm amazed the Captain didn't finally just say F it and declare an emergency to deviate.
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ATA L1011
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:09 pm

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
The return of N671US is not so much for the peak summer schedule, as it is for N664US that was *severely* damaged by hail and turbulence on DTW-ICN last week.

Being a 1989-built 744, it was determined that the damage was so significant, the necessary repairs were not economically viable. I don't know for sure, but I've heard from a few 744 people that Delta is working with Boeing to get a ferry certificate, to fly ship 6304 directly to the desert, on a rather inglorious final flight.

While I have no background in aircraft maintenance, nor do I have an A&P... I'd be very surprised if 6304 is airworthy in its current condition. I only saw a few pics of it, but the plane was totally trashed. Radome peppered into oblivion, wing and stab leading edges dented and ruptured, spider-webbed front windscreens.

The plane looked like it had just done a combat sortie, not a commercial service flight.

Brings back memories of that Air Transat L-1011-100 that ran into a heavy hail storm on departure from France, they turned around and landed. The aircraft was written off and remains on display at LYS http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=437317.
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Qantas744er
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:37 am

Chinese civilian ATC is severely restricted by the constant military activity within and around civilian airspace. This leads to countless and unpredictable airspace restrictions, closures, ground stops etc. all on a daily basis across the Chinese airspace.

When ATC in China tells you you cant deviate, it may be for a good reason... you don't want to be shot out of the sky by a SAM or AAM being tested, when you find yourself having to deviate up to 100nm off track for weather.

This is not to say that every request to deviate for weather is denied purely due to airspace restrictions imposed by the air force. Many crews familiar with Chinese ATC will tell you stories on how they deal with these situations.

Of course competent crews will initially always request a deviation L/R XX miles of track due to weather. If denied, some try calling PAN PAN, some try calling MAYDAY. And some, as a last resort simply deviate as required or as a Turkish crew did not too long ago, will enter a holding patter at their present position (before having to enter the storm cell that goes right across their route).

Some of these will definitely grab ATCs attention. Ultimately, the Captain is responsible for the aircraft and its occupants, and thus will do anything necessary for the safe operation of the flight.
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wjcandee
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:32 am

CX Flyboy, in another thread here, offered this very interesting and relevant post:

"It is very common for Chinese ATC to deny large weather deviations. They are not authorised to allow civilian aircraft off their narrow airways into adjacent airspace controlled by the military. All Chinese airspace is basically military owned and controlled with corridors 'leased' to civilian authorities. The controllers are not being mean or not understanding, they are simply not authorised to permit these deviations so they will keep denying the request.

"The pilot at the end of the day is in charge of the safety of the aircraft, crew and passengers. They have to weigh up the risk or entering a storm cell or the risk of going against ATC and deviating. The common solution is to declare an emergency, tell atc (not ask) what you are doing and tell them to coordinate with the military. I've done this before and the controller's voice does not elevate or get stressed. They know that normally there is zero risk, they are simply not permitted to grant you the deviation. If they detected traffic which is a risk, you would know about it. If not, they acknowledge your emergency and let you go on your way. "

I am not exactly sure what keeps you from getting a SAM up your tailpipe in this instance, so I would love to know more. Also, it strikes me that some deviations might take you over or near North Korea, and I am unclear how cooperative they are to commercial aviation. I know that some pugilistic dictatorships are suprisingly-cooperative to American commercial aviation (vis. Cuba), but somehow I doubt that North Korea is on the Good Guy list.

[Edited 2015-06-29 22:35:53]
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:00 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 58):
I am not exactly sure what keeps you from getting a SAM up your tailpipe in this instance, so I would love to know more. Also, it strikes me that some deviations might take you over or near North Korea, and I am unclear how cooperative they are to commercial aviation. I know that some pugilistic dictatorships are suprisingly-cooperative to American commercial aviation (vis. Cuba), but somehow I doubt that North Korea is on the Good Guy list.

I'll have to ask the Int'l flight clearance department at work. I know my employer has planned North Korea trips in the past but I don't know if there are any recent examples of us flying there.
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atypical
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:23 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 57):
Some of these will definitely grab ATCs attention. Ultimately, the Captain is responsible for the aircraft and its occupants, and thus will do anything necessary for the safe operation of the flight.

The buck stops there. BTW, I also posted this on the thread about the flight...

http://code7700.com/weather_deviation.html

15.2.3.1.1 When the pilot initiates communications with ATC, a rapid response may be obtained by stating "WEATHER DEVIATION REQUIRED" to indicate that priority is desired on the frequency and for ATC response. When necessary, the pilot should initiate the communications using the urgency call "PAN PAN" (preferably spoken three times).

15.2.3.3. Actions to be taken if a revised ATC clearance cannot be obtained

Note.— The provisions of this section apply to situations where a pilot needs to exercise the authority of a pilot-in-command under the provisions of Annex 2, 2.3.1.

If the aircraft is required to deviate from track to avoid adverse meteorological conditions and prior clearance cannot be obtained, an ATC clearance shall be obtained at the earliest possible time. Until an ATC clearance is received, the pilot shall take the following actions...
 
wjcandee
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:54 am

The code7700 post appears to be about Oceanic airspace; I wonder if the procedures differ when over, say, China or North Korea, which is the issue here. Even if they are signatories to some ICAO agreement, it doesn't mean they follow them in reality.
 
audidudi
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:10 pm

Avherald finally got around to posting this incident yesterday!

http://avherald.com/h?article=48893f03&opt=0
 
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delta747tlv
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:47 pm

6311 flys again

If anyone happens to be on DL2047 MSP DTW or DL87 DTW MSP today (01JUL), you get to experience 6311's return to revenue service
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:48 pm

6311 / N671US as mentioned operated DL2047 MSP-DTW & DL87 DTW-MSP on Wed Jul 1st

Today, its showing its going to operate DL48 JFK-AMS tonight, then AMS-ATL tomorrow. Looks like they may be ferrying on MSP-JFK as some point today, not showing up as a revenue flight or operational sub though.

DL48 is normally a 763ER flight.
 
factsonly
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:33 pm

Return flight DL 49 AMS-JFK will also be operated by B744 iso B763:

- dep. 2015-07-03 AMS - JFK B744 - N663US dep. 11:25 AM CEST - 13:45 PM EDT

N663US arrives from ATL-AMS.
 
alfa164
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 54):
The ATC crew should get a reprimand. 7 minutes? What is that about? Pride? "We initially said no so going back on that will make us seem weak"

Large portions - if not the majority - of Chinese airspace is under military control, and civilian aircraft is denied passage in or near those areas. Confrontation between commercial pilots and Chinses Air Force planes or missiles would probably not be a pretty sight.
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32andBelow
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:40 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 66):
Large portions - if not the majority - of Chinese airspace is under military control, and civilian aircraft is denied passage in or near those areas. Confrontation between commercial pilots and Chinses Air Force planes or missiles would probably not be a pretty sight.

It would really not be a pretty sight for China if they shot a DL 744 out of the sky.
 
alfa164
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 67):
It would really not be a pretty sight for China if they shot a DL 744 out of the sky.

I am not sure China cares. Russia was rather unapologetic after shooting down the Korean Airliner a few years ago.
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32andBelow
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:14 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 68):
I am not sure China cares. Russia was rather unapologetic after shooting down the Korean Airliner a few years ago.

China is going to care a lot if they shoot an America airplane out of the sky. And that Korean plane was shot down in 1978 during the cold war.
 
UA444
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:15 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 69):

They were pretty unapologetic about the one they shot down last year.
 
32andBelow
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 70):
They were pretty unapologetic about the one they shot down last year.

Again that was Malayasia not America.
 
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NWAESC
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:47 pm

KAL 007 was shot down in 1983...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
32andBelow
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 72):

KAL 007 was shot down in 1983...

Sorry I looked it up and got the date for 902 which they also shot down.
 
beechnut
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:42 pm

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 41):
I would have to imagine that once the hail made it past the radome, it was pelting the forward pressure bulkhead. If that is damaged, it won't be flying to the US for any retirement ceremony. That must have been ridiculousy loud in row 1 and 2.

More worrying is that they probably had to continue flying through an area of storms with U/S Wx radar after hail penetrated the radome. The incident report will make for interesting reading, and hopefully some lessons learned.

Beech
 
factsonly
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:48 am

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 64):
Today, its showing its going to operate DL48 JFK-AMS tonight,
Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 64):
DL48 is normally a 763ER flight.
Quoting factsonly (Reply 65):
Return flight DL 49 AMS-JFK will also be operated by B744 iso B763:

On Friday/Saturday DL 48/49 JFK-AMS-JFK will operate with B744 again.

DL now operates 3x B744 on USA-AMS (also DTW-AMS and ATL-AMS).

Can anyone from Delta confirm whether this is temporary or summer seasonal?
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:56 am

Well kind of a sad way to see a 744 come out of the boneyard.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 55):
The Chinese should be held responsible but it'll never happen..

exactly.
I wish and hope the US gov./company is telling the pilots "never again, declare and emergency"

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 67):

It would really not be a pretty sight for China if they shot a DL 744 out of the sky.

lol....like the US would do anything. I don't think a single country is remotely scared of this administration.

We would get a strong speech, (movable) line in the sand drawn then wash, repeat.....

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 69):
And that Korean plane was shot down in 1978 during the cold war.

in the 80s and what does the cold war have to do with anything?

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 71):
Again that was Malayasia not America.

thats logical...  
 
jreuschl
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:53 pm

http://www.flightradar24.com/DAL73/6b30852

And now N671US is diverting because of smoke indication in cargo area per Flightradar24!

[Edited 2015-07-03 06:56:06]
 
factsonly
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 77):
And now N671US is diverting because of smoke indication in cargo area per Flightradar24!

Oh dear, N671US departed AMS with a 3 hour delay and now it has diverted to SNN.

- 2015-07-03 - AMS - ATL - B744 (N671US) STD 10:55 AM ATD 14:10 PM Diverted to SNN

Aircraft is supposed to operate AMS-ATL-AMS-DTW over the next 24 hours.


http://www.flightradar24.com/flight/dl73

http://www.flightradar24.com/reg/n671us
 
BigSaabowski
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 78):

Aircraft is supposed to operate AMS-ATL-AMS-DTW over the next 24 hours.

ATL-AMS-DTW was just downgraded to a 777-200LR (N701DN).
 
tristarcrazy
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:09 pm

On Delta.com, DL72 SNN-ATL is cancelled but showing tomorrow DL9856 SNN-ATL
717,722,732,733,737.738,739,742,744.752,753,762,763,764,772,L10,L15,DC3,DC6,DC8,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,MD90,CV880,A310,A332,A333,A319,A320
 
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:15 pm

Quoting tristarcrazy (Reply 80):
On Delta.com, DL72 SNN-ATL is cancelled but showing tomorrow DL9856 SNN-ATL

Looks like it has turned into a ferry flight. Must be having some teething problems.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
tristarcrazy
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:35 pm

Did 6304 ever leave ICN?
717,722,732,733,737.738,739,742,744.752,753,762,763,764,772,L10,L15,DC3,DC6,DC8,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,MD90,CV880,A310,A332,A333,A319,A320
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:36 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 81):
Looks like it has turned into a ferry flight. Must be having some teething problems.   

It's going to operate as a revenue flight--any passengers still in SNN by tomorrow's DL9856 departure will be put on that flight. A mostly empty 747 SNN-ATL would be pretty sweet. They might just put everyone in J and call it a day.

Quoting BigSaabowski (Reply 79):
ATL-AMS-DTW was just downgraded to a 777-200LR (N701DN).

Thank god it wasn't already full or that would've been a real mess.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
Flighty
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:43 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 83):
They might just put everyone in J and call it a day.

Maybe.

Is there any sense of hours? Is this bird fit for another year of service? I thought they retired them hard against maintenance limits. This one seemed to have some good cycles to go?
 
N126DL
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 69):
And that Korean plane was shot down in 1978 during the cold war.

KAL 007 was downed on September 1, 1983. I would be born six days later to a glorious fanfare heard 'round the world. That's how I remember it.
DH84 E135/145/175/190 CR2/7/9 A319/20/21 A332/3 D95 M80/83/88/90/95 73W/8/9 752/3 763/4 772/L
 
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Spacepope
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting N126DL (Reply 85):

KAL 007 was downed on September 1, 1983. I would be born six days later to a glorious fanfare heard 'round the world. That's how I remember it.

KAL 902 was shot down on April 20, 1978. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

Quoting Flighty (Reply 84):

Is there any sense of hours? Is this bird fit for another year of service? I thought they retired them hard against maintenance limits. This one seemed to have some good cycles to go?

N671US as of last August only had 68000 hours and 8572 cycles.

[Edited 2015-07-03 15:15:17]
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Flighty
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:42 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 86):
N671US as of last August only had 68000 hours and 8572 cycles.

Thanks. Am I right this is a 98-99 build... that is a young plane, as long as the checks are ok.
 
BigSaabowski
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:21 am

Quoting N126DL (Reply 85):
I would be born six days later to a glorious fanfare heard 'round the world. That's how I remember it.

Is that you Mr. Jong-Un?
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 87):
Thanks. Am I right this is a 98-99 build... that is a young plane, as long as the checks are ok.

It's next heavy check, an M check, is due in Q1 2018. I'm not sure why that one was parked when the older birds continued to fly.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 89):

Quoting Flighty (Reply 87):
Thanks. Am I right this is a 98-99 build... that is a young plane, as long as the checks are ok.

It's next heavy check, an M check, is due in Q1 2018. I'm not sure why that one was parked when the older birds continued to fly.

Most likely to run out the time on the older aircraft where a major check is needed. Then the newer aircraft can be returned to service if needed.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Flighty
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:53 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 90):
Most likely to run out the time on the older aircraft where a major check is needed. Then the newer aircraft can be returned to service if needed.

True it ended up being a clever move. The old bird got the hail.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 90):

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 89):

Quoting Flighty (Reply 87):
Thanks. Am I right this is a 98-99 build... that is a young plane, as long as the checks are ok.

It's next heavy check, an M check, is due in Q1 2018. I'm not sure why that one was parked when the older birds continued to fly.

Most likely to run out the time on the older aircraft where a major check is needed. Then the newer aircraft can be returned to service if needed.   

That does sound like something Delta would do. Looking at the fleet schedule.... That looks plausible. The 3 parked airplanes, 6316, 6311 (back in service), and 6312 all had some of the longest leases and next HMV due in Q1 2018. Many of the airplanes still flying either hit a HMV for get returned to the lessor prior to that.

6304--the airplane damaged was scheduled for retirement at the end of the year anyway. She has over 100,000 hours on the clock and more than 13,000 cycles.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:35 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 92):
6304--the airplane damaged was scheduled for retirement at the end of the year anyway. She has over 100,000 hours on the clock and more than 13,000 cycles.

My employer has a 747-200 in the 100,000 hr neighborhood and even it is about to be retired. So it could be worse.
Now you're flying smart
 
factsonly
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:07 am

Delta seems somewhat unlucky with its TATL operation during this early peak summer season.

- flight DL56 SLC-AMS has diverted to JFK;

2015-07-03 SLC-AMS B763 (N171DZ) Diverted to JFK

http://www.flightradar24.com/flight/dl56
 
bhmdiversion
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:20 pm

SLC/AMS DIVERTED BOTH AS A PLANNED FUEL STOP DUE TO HIGH TEMPS IN SLC, THEREFORE, REDUCING PAYLOAD CAPACITY OUT OF AMS.
 
diverted
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:23 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 92):
That does sound like something Delta would do. Looking at the fleet schedule.... That looks plausible. The 3 parked airplanes, 6316, 6311 (back in service), and 6312 all had some of the longest leases and next HMV due in Q1 2018. Many of the airplanes still flying either hit a HMV for get returned to the lessor prior to that.

That's just smart aircraft management. All airlines do (Or should) employ similar tactics. For example, we have an aircraft coming up on retirement this week. As of yesterday, it had 13 cycles remaining before HMV. It's out with some guys upgrading doing touch and goes before heading to the scrap man after it's stripped of usable parts.
 
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delta747tlv
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:29 pm

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...S/history/20150710/0853Z/RKSI/KMZJ

Heading to the desert, can any spotters catch her arrival?

[Edited 2015-07-10 10:30:12]
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:05 am

The fleet documents have been updated to reflect this as her final flight. She is now officially retired in Marana. Sad way to see her go. The odds of her flying again are SLIM. Final clock shows 107,804 hours and 13490 cycles.

The replacement airplane, 6311 will continue flying until the end of the year and then retire again. It's due for a C2 check in February, making continuing to fly it after December very expensive. She has 68,631 hours and 8630 cycles on the dial.

Interesting tid-bit, 6303, which will retire at the end of November when it's due for a C2 check, leads the fleet in flights/cycles with 108,966 hours and 14070 cycles! Wow!

6301, 6303, 6305, 6311 and 6315 will all be parked by the end of the year. Fly on the Delta 747s while you can!
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

RE: DL Returning A 744 To Service?

Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:19 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 98):
6301, 6303, 6305, 6311 and 6315 will all be parked by the end of the year. Fly on the Delta 747s while you can!

I'd really like to make that happen. Can't afford another int'l trip for another year or so (apart from MAYBE one or two on my employer's cargo aircraft) so I'll have to keep any eye out for any one off domestic hops.
Now you're flying smart

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