Swiss Has Presented The CSeries

yenne09 · Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:19 am

Swiss has presented details of their future Cseries-100 like the cabin interior and the new seats in Zurich.

http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/ne...c-series-to-zurich-for-first-time/

adamblang · Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:44 am

The article talks about unveiling a cabin but doesn't actually show it. Here's the cabin, added to the database two weeks ago:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Markus Altmann
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Markus Altmann

[Edited 2015-06-29 20:47:14]

yyztpa · Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:48 am

"Swiss expects to take delivery of the first of its new C-Series aircraft – in the CS100 version – in mid-2016."

Mid 2016?? Is that sliding from previous estimates?

adamblang · Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:58 am

They've also got an interactive flythrough of the cabin on their website: http://www.world-of-swiss.com/en/cseries

ams747757 · Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:56 am

Great looking plane, and love the 2-3 seating, reminds me of the MD80s!

DALCE · Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:14 pm

The pics as shown above is the standard Bombardier-interior not the LX-interior.
The LX-cabin will feature brown leather seats and from a different model than the ones shown here.

The aircraft FTV5 which has the SWISS livery will also not be an aircraft which is set to operate for LX.
It only has the livery for marketing purposes.

spacecookie · Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:26 pm

This new aircraft make me happy
I made 4 flights with Swiss not long ago 2 short and 2 long haul flights
great service
The only thing is that there small planes are very old the 320 family and the jumbolinos

This will be an great improvement for all passengers!

DALCE · Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:55 pm

Quoting spacecookie (Reply 6):
I made 4 flights with Swiss not long ago 2 short and 2 long haul flights
great service
The only thing is that there small planes are very old the 320 family and the jumbolinos

Indeed the Avro's are old and will be replaced by the C-series as soon as they are delivered to LX.
LX already phased out a couple of them and replaced them by additional frames ( E190 ) from Helvetic.
Passengers still do like the Avro's since LX have only 5-abreast and not the more common 6-Abrest lay out.

The A320 and 321 fleet is being refurbished as we speak, and will have brandnew interior, even the youngest frames which are only a couple of years old. ( HB-JL* ). Most frames are done already.

Also the 319's will be phased out quite soon, so I'm not sure these will get refurbished.

kurtverbose · Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:05 pm

I like the Avro's but they do smell.

Be good when the A340's go also - those hair dryers make the planes too loud. Flew in an A346 and it was much quieter.

I like Swiss as an airline. Don't mind paying a bit more (although they're not unreasonable) for them vs Easyjet, and I'd rather walk than fly Ryanair.

YYZYYT · Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:29 pm

Here is another article about the event, good read, with some great pictures:

http://www.planepics.org/cms/cseries

Quoting dalce (Reply 5):
The LX-cabin will feature brown leather seats and from a different model than the ones shown here.

These were on display, and can be seen approx. 2/3 of the way down the article (they are described as "slimline seats from German Manufacturer ZIM")

adamblang · Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting dalce (Reply 5):
The pics as shown above is the standard Bombardier-interior not the LX-interior.
The LX-cabin will feature brown leather seats and from a different model than the ones shown here.

My bad. Lifted from YYZYYT's link:

And two screenshots from my link to Swiss's CSeries microsite:

caleb1 · Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:56 pm

I think the c-series is a great aircraft. Just curious as to why there aren't more orders for it. Does it have some horrible flaw that the rest of us are not aware of?

rbavfan · Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:49 am

Yeah the dreaded 787 long development delays due to new design & lots of tech. its fuel burn has turned out noticeable better that predicted as the range of the CS100 jumped from 2950nm to 3100nm during flight test.

Viscount724 · Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 11):
I think the c-series is a great aircraft. Just curious as to why there aren't more orders for it. Does it have some horrible flaw that the rest of us are not aware of?

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 12):
Yeah the dreaded 787 long development delays due to new design & lots of tech. its fuel burn has turned out noticeable better that predicted as the range of the CS100 jumped from 2950nm to 3100nm during flight test.

Excerpt from June 22 Aviation Week & Space Technology article on the C Series:

...an even more important factor that could be decisive is that the aircraft appears to be better than advertised. Bombardier came to Paris claiming the C Series will exceed performance guarantees by a significant margin. Based on the flight test campaign so far, both the CS100 and CS300 have about 10% more range than originally targeted, better payload and airfield performance and lower fuel burn.

Cromer says the CS100 and CS300 are now coming in at a maximum range of 3,300 nm, around 350 nm more than originally planned. A combination of factors are in play, according to Rob Dewar, vice president of C Series. The engine is burning 1% less fuel than predicted, and there is less drag in cruise. Bombardier is therefore able to raise the maximum takeoff weight and zero fuel weight by 5,000 lb. for both the CS100 and CS300. "Those guarantees will be improved," Dewar says. Both models are meeting noise performance targets.

hz747300 · Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:47 am

I assume planes in this category will be auto certified for London City operations. I'm glad I flew an Avro earlier this year then!!!

AirPacific747 · Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:53 pm

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 8):
and I'd rather walk than fly Ryanair.

Never flew with them, never will.

INNflight · Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:32 pm

There's now also a short film about the CSeries arrival that SWISS just published today.

Pretty cool footage from the cockpit, the cabin and from the water cannon salute.

CSeries first visit to Zurich - SWISS

Some more behind the scenes also on my site if you want:
JetVisuals
Instagram

planemaker · Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:04 pm

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 11):
Just curious as to why there aren't more orders for it.

Very, very, very short answer:

- CS100 is up against E190/195 large installed customer base (plus the commonality of the E-Jet family and the future E2 family)

- CS300 is up against A & B VERY large installed customer base (plus the commonality of the A & B's NB families)

phillyramp270 · Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:10 pm

I wonder... AA's E190 replacement

aviationaware · Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 11):
Just curious as to why there aren't more orders for it. Does it have some horrible flaw that the rest of us are not aware of?

It's too expensive. The Embraers are much more affordable, and on the other side of the scale the A320 and 737 are offered with gigantic discounts so the price difference is not all that big.

planemaker · Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 19):
It's too expensive.

Perhaps a better way to put it is that the economic proposition is not packaged as attractively as the others.

aviationaware · Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 20):
Perhaps a better way to put it is that the economic proposition is not packaged as attractively as the others.

Well that would be the nice way to put it

Here's a piece on it:
https://aviationawareness.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/why-the-cseries-doesnt-sell/

planemaker · Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 21):
Here's a piece on it:

Overall, that is a pretty good synopsis and it only has a few errors. Certainly one of the better articles I have seen on the CSeries.

thekorean · Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):

Aw why? You don't enjoy flying to Frankfurt Hahn?

neromancer · Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:01 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 21):
Well that would be the nice way to put it

Here's a piece on it:
https://aviationawareness.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/why-the-cseries-doesnt-sell/

While there is some good points in the article I also see a lot of mistakes in it. It also doesn't help that the article is around a year out of date (Edit: 13 months old). A lot has happened on the C-Series program in the last year.

[Edited 2015-07-05 15:35:20]

CRJ900 · Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:09 pm

Are SWISS planning on using their CS100 and especially the CS300 on longer flights? Bombardier touts that the CS300 can fly a whopping 6,112 km at MTOW, but is SWISS interested in flying such long routes with only 140 pax onboard?

At the same time, it sounds like a waste to use such long-legged aircraft only for 60-90-minute hops around Europe. Do their A319 fly both short and long flights now?

Joost · Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:29 pm

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 11):

I think the c-series is a great aircraft. Just curious as to why there aren't more orders for it. Does it have some horrible flaw that the rest of us are not aware of?

For many carriers, it's too big to be flown by their regional affiliates, and too small to be economically flown by the mainline pilots.

Swiss has been negotioting with their pilots and will have them flown by the regional affiliate (but well they'll also fly their 77Ws).

planemaker · Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 24):
While there is some good points in the article I also see a lot of mistakes in it.

Considering the short length of the article, how is it that there are "a lot of mistakes in it"?

ankaraflyjet · Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:12 am

Hope SWISS will reinstate ZRH-ESB-ZRH with this a/c

Viscount724 · Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 28):
Hope SWISS will reinstate ZRH-ESB-ZRH with this a/c

I don't think SWISS has ever operated to ESB. The defunct Swissair did.

miller22 · Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 21):
Here's a piece on it:
https://aviationawareness.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/why-the-cseries-doesnt-sell/

Wow, that was incredibly superficial and poorly written. It's interesting to hear how far the public view is from reality.

ankaraflyjet · Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:30 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):

Sure I never differentiate the two, to me it is the same thing, even if I liked SR more to admit...

neromancer · Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 27):
Considering the short length of the article, how is it that there are "a lot of mistakes in it"?

Well lets see the article claims:

Republic is about to pull the plug. Though now 13 months later Republic seems more committed than ever.
Leasing companies won't be interested. Yet their are three leasing companies as major customers. Though one has announced they are "reviewing their order".

The E 195 is sized between the CS100 and CS300. The E 195 is basically the same capacity of a CS100. The E 195 E2 is only slightly larger than the CS100 but carries a higher list price and a higher cost of ownership.

Airbus and Boeing have more capacity to discount. Which is likely very true. However the article claims the list on an A319neo is 94.4 million and the very comparable CS300 with lower CASM is 66.6 million.
So for Airbus to beat Bombardier on price they will need to sell for nearly half the list on a plane that hasn't even flown yet? Doesn't sound like a good money making strategy to me.

So even if it's a short article the fact that it's almost 90% garbage I think would constitute "a lot of mistakes".

Edit: I missed one. Air Canada hasn't order it. To early to tell. Air Canada is getting rid of some E195's and their new 737 MAX order to replace the A320 series doesn't include the -7 variant. That in my eyes leaves room for a possible C Series order.

Personally this is how I would answer the question of "Why isn't the C Series selling":

It's an all new aircraft from a company that hasn't done many many all new aircraft's in recent history. The company also happens to be cash strapped. So while the plane is awesome the company is a risk. The backlog isn't huge so theirs no rush to make an order and airlines want to see some stability from Bombardier before placing a big order.

[Edited 2015-07-05 20:46:17]

KD5MDK · Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:14 am

I wonder if SWISS has a number of longer, thinner routes that could really appreciate something like this. How much traffic is there LED-GVA, for example?

planemaker · Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:25 am

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 32):
Well lets see the article claims:

Republic is about to pull the plug.

The article doesn't say that... it says: "While the exact conditions are not known, the Indianapolis-based airline has dropped the plans for which the order was originally made, casting public doubt on the future of the order."

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 32):
Though now 13 months later Republic seems more committed than ever.

There is not a single article or statement from Republic stating "that it is more committed than ever."

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 32):
Leasing companies won't be interested.

The article does not say that... it says: "The plane is also not enjoying particular success with lessors, who have much more significant commitments for planes competing with the CSeries."

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 32):
The E 195 is sized between the CS100 and CS300. The E 195 is basically the same capacity of a CS100.

The article shows that.

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 32):
So even if it's a short article the fact that it's almost 90% garbage I think would constitute "a lot of mistakes".

Stating that article is "almost 90% garbage" it should be be very easy to directly quote the article and provide a link showing the counterpoint for 90% of the article. You didn't do that once.

zkncj · Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:57 am

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 11):
I think the c-series is a great aircraft. Just curious as to why there aren't more orders for it. Does it have some horrible flaw that the rest of us are not aware of?

Some airlines have worked out that there better replacing small jets with larger jets, e.g NZ replaced its 133 seat 733s with 171 seat A320s. The A320 operating worked out to be around the same cost as the 733, which allowed them to sell the extra 38 seats at LCC prices. Which helped them compete with the LCC's and prevent them from have an negative affect on profits.

Also the C-Series, like the E-Jet and other regional jets. Have extremely restricted cargo space, which means less potential reneve. Taking courier cargo on short-haul flights just keeps growing and will do, with more an more people shopping online.

With the market demanding more and more overnight deliveries from other counties, the more and more need there will be for pasenger flights to take some of it.

aviationaware · Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:00 am

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 32):
So even if it's a short article the fact that it's almost 90% garbage I think would constitute "a lot of mistakes".

I suggest you re-read without your Bombardier-employee-butthurt-glasses on. Denying a problem has never solved one.

Quoting miller22 (Reply 30):
It's interesting to hear how far the public view is from reality.

So where is it diverging from reality? I am really curious. So far, nothing I wrote a year ago has materially changed. Other than that, may I suggest the same remedy I prescribed Necromancer.

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 32):
and the very comparable CS300 with lower CASM is 66.6 million.

The problem is not the comparability of the CS300 with the A319neo, it much more is the fact that its CASM is not much lower than that of an A320neo. Take the A320neo accounting for virtually the same cost of capital as a CS300 combined with its much better ability to cover overhead and you have a clear winner.

The CS300 is not losing out on the A319 as which's replacement it was originally contemplated, but on the A320. The CS100 is losing out on the Embraer. That's the bottomline of the article and it remains as true as ever.

It's an extremely well engineered aircraft that's been just as poorly marketed. The entire market segment was chosen against any sensibility, seemingly without taking the US scope clauses into account.

flyingclrs727 · Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 36):

It's an extremely well engineered aircraft that's been just as poorly marketed. The entire market segment was chosen against any sensibility, seemingly without taking the US scope clauses into account.

As the smallest model in the C Series, the 100 won't have the lowest CASM, but it will have really good field performance and enough range for U.S. transcon flights. This will make it the smallest airliner capable of transcon flights. The field performance is probably one of the reasons Swiss wants the CS100 to replace the 4-engined Avro.

aviationaware · Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 37):
but it will have really good field performance

Field performance is a driver of sales in only a very limited market segment.

Polot · Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 37):

As the smallest model in the C Series, the 100 won't have the lowest CASM, but it will have really good field performance and enough range for U.S. transcon flights. This will make it the smallest airliner capable of transcon flights. The field performance is probably one of the reasons Swiss wants the CS100 to replace the 4-engined Avro.

The CS300 also has range for transcons flights at probably very similar trip costs. I don't see many selecting the CS100 for range reasons, in fact I think the CS300 is suppose to have more.

flyingclrs727 · Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 38):
Field performance is a driver of sales in only a very limited market segment.

Well it is in Switzerland! Also engine out performanceat altitude is important. Why do you think Swiss bought 4-engined Avros?

Polot · Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 40):
Well it is in Switzerland! Also engine out performanceat altitude is important. Why do you think Swiss bought 4-engined Avros?

Nobody said that field-performance is never important for any operator. But it is a niche market. Even LX has now converted some of their CS100s to 300s, and I wouldn't be surprise if they never order anymore CS100s.

ZRH · Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 40):
Well it is in Switzerland! Also engine out performanceat altitude is important. Why do you think Swiss bought 4-engined Avros?

Altitude? In Switzerland we do not have airports on high altitude: ZRH: 432 m = 1417 feet; GVA: 430 m = 1410 feet; BSL: 270 m = 885 feet.

neromancer · Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:10 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 36):
I suggest you re-read without your Bombardier-employee-butthurt-glasses on. Denying a problem has never solved one.

Just because my flag is Canadian doesn't mean I have anything to do with Bombardier. I have not denied there are problems with the program. Of course there have been problems. But the article does a very poor job of laying out a logical argument as to what those problems are and on here has merely served as a distraction of the real problems. Did you even read my full post or only the first few lines?

This article is long out of date. Bombardier needs to take several steps to get the C Series moving. They needed a new sales team and strategy (which they appear to be doing). And they need to get their financial house in order (yet to be seen).

Do you have any hard figures on the articles claims? Because based on the numbers quoted in the article C Series is the least expensive of the comparable aircraft and the most advanced.

Calling me a butt hurt employee just highlights how ignorant you are to others opinions. Just because as a customer I’m excited to see this aircraft doesn’t make me a Bombardier fan boy. Personally I cheer for the C Series because as a consumer it looks like a quiet and comfortable aircraft that for once will raise the bar on passenger comfort as opposed to the current trend of decreasing passenger comfort. But it doesn’t make me blind to its problems.

aviationaware · Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 43):
This article is long out of date.

No shit, I wrote it a year ago. And yet it's still mostly very valid. Which is not a good sign for the program at all. There is a reason why all management was switched out.

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 43):
Because based on the numbers quoted in the article C Series is the least expensive of the comparable aircraft and the most advanced.

Not really, no.

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 43):
Calling me a butt hurt employee just highlights how ignorant you are to others opinions.

Sorry, but weren't you the one calling my writing crap when in reality, you just didn't pay attention to its wording and read some weird claims I never made into it?

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 43):
I’m excited to see this aircraft

So am I. Doesn't mean I have to laud BBD on everything they do.

Viscount724 · Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 40):
Quoting AviationAware (Reply 38):
Field performance is a driver of sales in only a very limited market segment.

Well it is in Switzerland! Also engine out performance at altitude is important. Why do you think Swiss bought 4-engined Avros?

Switzerland has no high altitude airports with airline service. What are you referring to?

ytz · Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting Neromancer (Reply 43):
Personally I cheer for the C Series because as a consumer it looks like a quiet and comfortable aircraft that for once will raise the bar on passenger comfort as opposed to the current trend of decreasing passenger comfort. But it doesn’t make me blind to its problems.

Ditto here. I don't get the pooh-poohing of this airplane by many on here (their obvious biases aside). I like this airplane not because I share the flag, but because I detest 17" seats. And I detest the fact that the next-gen of narrowbodies from Airbus didn't bother at all with anything like larger windows, wider seats and higher capacity luggage bins. And five abreast Y means 80% chance of window or aisle. What's not to like?

Admittedly, Bombardier has its issues executing though. But it's sad that the most customer friendly airplane in recent memory draws such contempt on a.net.

Viscount724 · Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 46):
And five abreast Y means 80% chance of window or aisle. What's not to like?

The E190/195 means 100% chance of window or aisle, and wider seats and aisle than the 737.

neromancer · Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:15 am

I will just list some numbers (no opinion just published facts):

CS100: 2015 list price $62 million
Comparable aircraft - E-195 E2 2013 list price $60.4 million

CS300: 2015 list price $71 million

Comparable aircraft:
A319neo 2015 list $97.5 million
737 Max 7 2015 list $90.2 million

For information (2015 numbers)
A320neo $106.2 million
737 Max 8 $110.0 million

Cost comparison (2014):
http://airinsight.com/wp-content/upl...ardier-CSeries-Economics-Chart.jpg

[Edited 2015-07-06 17:15:55]

ytz · Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 47):
The E190/195 means 100% chance of window or aisle, and wider seats and aisle than the 737.

Indeed. But the seats still won't be as wide as the CS100. The luggage bins won't be as large, which is extremely important in this day and age where airlines are pushing more and more for passengers to go with carry-ons. And the windows won't be as large either.

The CSeries almost looks like a mini-787 without Boeing's enabling of bait-and-switch for passengers. All those original promises of the Dreamliner.....

My biggest complaint against the E-Jets is that airlines don't seem to consider replacing Airbus or Boeing narrowbodies with them (AC aside). There's a more realistic possibility of such a replacement with the CSeries (though I still think they really need the CS500 for this).

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