uta999
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Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:52 am

Airports Commission

Heathrow to be named as preferred option, according to Sky News.

But no final decision, or go ahead for years yet.
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tortugamon
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:57 am

Preferred for new runway vs other LON airports?

tortugamon
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:04 am

Quoting uta999 (Thread starter):
Heathrow to be named as preferred option

for what????
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blueflyer
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:09 am

Key details of the proposal for LHR
-Third runway
-Promise of no fourth runway
-No flights from 2330 to 0600 daily
-Strict, binding limits on daytime noise level

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/1dd2c860-1fb3-11e5-ab0f-6bb9974f25d0.html

[Edited 2015-06-30 23:48:19]
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ba6590
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:09 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 1):
Preferred for new runway vs other LON airports?

The commission was set up to consider airport expansion in the south east of England.

Three options were short listed. A third runway at Heathrow, a second at Gatwick, or lengthening one of Heathrow runways.

Looks like they are recommending a third runway at Heathrow as the best option.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:12 am

BBC also chiming in with a report: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33340565
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:13 am

Quoting ba6590 (Reply 4):
The commission was set up to consider airport expansion in the south east of England.

Were they expected to emit an opinion beyond where to locate additional capacity? I was quite surprised to read they also made recommendations regarding noise levels and a ban on night-time flying. I thought capacity was their sole concern.
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:32 am

Quoting ba6590 (Reply 4):
The commission was set up to consider airport expansion in the south east of England.

Thank you!

And so the biggest no-brainer of commercial aviation history has been solved!  

Anyone want to take odds on when they break ground? I'll take 2021. I'll give the same odds as 'never'.

Hope I am wrong as it is long overdue and the political will gives me a tiny flicker of optimism.

tortugamon
 
Armodeen
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:34 am

No take offs before 6am or no landings either?

Anyway hopefully this will be the beginning of he end for this frankly boring and mostly political saga. Any idiot can see heathrow needs new runways, and gatwick too. I see they are planning to screw heathrow again in the future by blocking any plans for a fourth runway now.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:43 am

I have always wondered about the distribution of slots created by a new LHR runway. Will UK carriers get first choice?
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:49 am

Quoting Armodeen (Reply 8):
No take offs before 6am or no landings either?

The article I read said no flights, without further details.
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:00 am

The report says that it will not become operational until at least 10yrs from now, a lot can change by then.   
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:09 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 10):
The article I read said no flights, without further details.

Well thanks a magnificent number 18 slots to give up !- for potential maximum of 684 per day extra of the proposed (never happen in the rest of my life time) third strip of concrete.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:13 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
-Promise of no fourth runway

How long is that promise for? Surely, no one knows what the aviation industry is like in 50 years+?

Anyway, a good step forward, but still a huge way to go.

-CXfirst
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:17 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
No flights from 2330 to 0600 daily

This will certainly screw up the wave of flights coming in from Asia starting at 4.45am. Maybe UK needs to change the clock times to be inline with Mainland Europe now otherwise the residents of BKK, SIN etc will have to put up with the noise of fully laden take offs at 2am just so the residents around Heathrow can get their sleep!
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:24 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 11):
The report says that it will not become operational until at least 10yrs from now, a lot can change by then.   

Is that what is says? I read it as it will take 10 years to build. That is two different things to me. The latter meaning 10 years from when they start and it doesn't seem like they have started.

Is there another source that is more clear?

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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:12 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 15):
Is that what is says? I read it as it will take 10 years to build. That is two different things to me. The latter meaning 10 years from when they start and it doesn't seem like they have started.

Is there another source that is more clear?

John Holland Kaye of LHR said this morning on Sky News that "shovels could be in the ground by 2020 with the runway operational by 2025."

I interpret that to mean it is going to take 5 years to receive all the requisite permissions and 5 years to build.

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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:53 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
Were they expected to emit an opinion beyond where to locate additional capacity? I was quite surprised to read they also made recommendations regarding noise levels and a ban on night-time flying. I thought capacity was their sole concern.

If the commissions sole concern was capacity, it wouldn't have taken very long to reach a conclusion ! No planning decision, large or small can be taken in the UK without reference to the effect on the local environment, on that basis the commission had got to take these other factors into consideration, otherwise it would be an immediate refusal when the runway reaches the formal planning stage.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
-Promise of no fourth runway

Across the World there are so many examples of promises being broken that there can be no one who pays this any attention at all. Indeed in 2010 David Cameron categorically stated "no new runway at LHR"
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:16 am

With three runways, two for landing and one for departures (at peak times), there would be a near 50% reduction in noise and pollution over the current West London approach area.

Some noise would move north, but the benefits to Barnes, Kew, Putney & Richmond compared to now is enormous.
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:24 am

While the obvious and logical choice, it is but a recommendation - which the government will quickly ignore.
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:34 am

Quoting MAN2SIN2BKK (Reply 14):
This will certainly screw up the wave of flights coming in from Asia starting at 4.45am

I believe these restrictions only apply to the new runway. They can continue to use the other 2 runways for early morning arrivals.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:41 am

How hard can it be to build a runway?

Shouldn't take so many years.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:52 am

Heathrow was always going to get more runways. Here is the plan for runways 4 - 9

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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:54 am

Quoting finnishway (Reply 21):
How hard can it be to build a runway?

Britain has not built a new, full-size runway since the 1940s!  Wow!   
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:56 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 23):

Showing your London bias there, remind me when the 2nd runway at MAN was built  
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:59 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 15):
Is there another source that is more clear?

tortugamon
http://www.gov.uk/government/publica...s/airports-commission-final-report

Here you go, happy reading.  
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:06 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 23):
Britain has not built a new, full-size runway since the 1940s!

True for the London area, but what about MAN?
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:27 am

Quoting finnishway (Reply 21):

How hard can it be to build a runway?

Shouldn't take so many years.

The first hurdle is getting permission to build it, due to the scale of the project it will require a public enquiry, this will be an opportunity for all sorts of objectors to come forward, everyone from Friends of the Earth to LGW who will object on the basis that they should have the runway. After they have all had their say, the inspector will forward his report to his Government minister, who will then make an entirely political decision and totally ignore all the evidence from the enquiry.
On the basis that the LHR T5 enquiry took 4 years, this will be a long process.

We then come to the build, this presents two major challenges:
Once permission is granted LHR will need to purchase somewhere in the region of 950 homes in Harmsworth (they may well already own quite a number of them). Owners who are not willing to sell will then have to be removed via a compulsory purchase order. There are also a number of businesses that will need to relocate, including BA whose Waterside HQ will disappear.

The new runway will pass over the M25, the UK's busiest road, the point where it will be bridged is close to the junction with the M4, including slip roads it is 12 lanes wide at this point. To bridge this over whilst maintaining traffic flow is going to be a major undertaking.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:35 am

Quoting gkirk (Reply 24):
Showing your London bias there, remind me when the 2nd runway at MAN was built

And Liverpool (1966) and Edinburgh (1977) Manchester (2001) !
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:38 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 23):

I thought their was a runway built at MAN since then, was there not?
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:39 am

Quoting gkirk (Reply 24):
Showing your London bias there, remind me when the 2nd runway at MAN was built
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 28):
And Liverpool (1966) and Edinburgh (1977) Manchester (2001) !

Well, the topic is LONDON airport capacity. * shrug *
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:43 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 9):
I have always wondered about the distribution of slots created by a new LHR runway. Will UK carriers get first choice? [/quote

EU regulations require that new operators to a particular airport be given preference for the allocation of 50 per cent of newly created slots. However here we are talking ab out so many new slots being created that there are likely to be available spare LHR slots for many years.

Consider what happened when Lufthansa Group put BD up for sale along with its 54 daily slot pairs. The end result was IAG buying bmi, bmi regional and bmibaby as well as those 54 slot pairs for a net cost of around.

[quote=blueflyer,reply=10]The article I read said no flights, without further details.

A complete night-time curfew between 23:30 and 06:00. This would cause problems on routes from the Far East. For example BA's first HKG departure of the day is at 23:05. This flight is the first one scheduled to arrive at LHR in the morning at 04:45. It is followed by the other BA HKG departure that is scheduled to leave at 23:45.

So for HKG there would be two options. One would be a departure at around 01:00 or later. The other would be a day time flight.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 23):
Britain has not built a new, full-size runway since the 1940s!

At the end of the 1940s Gatwick had a grass airstrip.

Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip flew into LGW on 9 June 1958 to officially open the new 2,133m metalled runway. In 1964 the southern runway was extended to 2,499 m. Later (date?) it was further extended to its present length of 3,048m.

Here is a link to the full report:

http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads...rports-commission-final-report.pdf

To me one of the more surprising paragraphs was 10.5 on page 214. It reads:


"All of the three schemes would result in a loss of homes in the local community due
to the land take required to construct the expanded airport, as set out in the Place
module. These impacts would be largest for the Heathrow Airport Northwest
Runway scheme, which would require the loss of 783 homes, including the entire
community of Longford and much of Harmondsworth. The loss of housing required
for the other two schemes would be smaller, though still significant, with 242
houses estimated to be lost as a result of the Heathrow Airport Extended Northern
Runway scheme’s land-take and 167 lost due to the Gatwick Airport Second
Runway scheme."


This is significantly less than the couple of thousand homes I thought were involved and much less than the figure of 4,000 that I have seen quoted on a-net.

One of the positive features the report identifies is employment. It recommends that special training should be locally provided as local unemployment is on the high side. Here is paragraph 6.71 from page 127:


"Adding runway capacity at Heathrow is forecast to deliver significant growth in local
employment through additional direct, indirect and induced jobs, totalling around
64,000-66,000 (Extended Northern Runway scheme) or 75,000-78,000 (Northwest
Runway scheme) in 2050. A number of nearby local authorities, notably Ealing and
Slough, have current unemployment rates above the London average (and close to
or above the national average); employment created through expansion would offer
a local source of jobs."


This suggests to me that there may be a silent majority living in the area who would welcome the building of the northwest runway.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:46 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 30):
Well, the topic is LONDON airport capacity. * shrug *

Your statement is proven completely inaccurate !

And as for the south east - The area has a completely new airport admittedly rather specialised in the City , has had runway extensions at both Stansted and Southend.

Closed the cross wind runway for operational reasons at LHR and built a taxiway at Gatwick to be an effective second (emergency/maintenance) runway without telling anyone !
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:03 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 31):
A complete night-time curfew between 23:30 and 06:00. This would cause problems on routes from the Far East. For example BA's first HKG departure of the day is at 23:05. This flight is the first one scheduled to arrive at LHR in the morning at 04:45. It is followed by the other BA HKG departure that is scheduled to leave at 23:45.

So for HKG there would be two options. One would be a departure at around 01:00 or later. The other would be a day time flight.

3rd option: UK adopted Mainland European time, LOL
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:11 am

[Quote from flightglobal]:
While acknowledging the UK government will need to review its analysis carefully, Davies urges it "not to prolong this process" and to "move as quickly as it can" to a decision. "Further delay will be increasingly costly and will be seen, nationally and internationally, as a sign that the UK is unwilling or unable to take the steps needed to maintain its position as a well-connected, open trading economy in the 21st century," he says.

Now that's possibly the understatement of the year  
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:16 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 32):
has had runway extensions at both Stansted and Southend.

The runway at STN was extended by the USAF in the early 1950's. I'm not aware that there has been any extension for civil use.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:21 am

Prime Minister David Cameron has just said @ PMQ's in the House of Commons, that a 'decision' on LHR will be announced by the government 'before the end of the year'.

Unfortunately, he didn't state which year.......


(PS; PMQ's = Prime Ministers Questions. A weekly meeting in the UK House of Commoms, where the PM answers numerous and varied questions of the day; a scenario that I understand is unusual in many democracies around the world).
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:30 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 7):
And so the biggest no-brainer of commercial aviation history has been solved!

Anyone want to take odds on when they break ground? I'll take 2021. I'll give the same odds as 'never'.

Hope I am wrong as it is long overdue and the political will gives me a tiny flicker of optimism.

  
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:39 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 31):
.........the building of the northwest runway

Question for the engineers and pilots amongst us.

I understand flights currently approach LHR largely from the east to assist landing by flying into prevailing winds.

If the new 3rd runway is longer, will it allow more flights to approach LHR from the Windsor Great Park (westerly) direction, rather than over leafy Putney, Wimbledon and Richmond; and reduce noise and emmissions over heavily populated areas.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:12 pm

This is a very good point.

Around 70% of the time, the wind is westerly at less than 5 knots.

Most aircraft can land on a long runway, with a tailwind of less than 10 knots.

Heathrow & NATS could do a lot more easterly operations than they currently do.
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 21):
How hard can it be to build a runway?

The BBC's report says:

Quote:

The new runway would cost £17.6bn to deliver. Road and rail links around the airport would also have to be substantially changed, which could cost up to £5bn.

By contrast, a second runway at Gatwick would cost just over £7bn.

That should give you some idea of the scale of the project.
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:24 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 38):
If the new 3rd runway is longer, will it allow more flights to approach LHR from the Windsor Great Park (westerly) direction, rather than over leafy Putney, Wimbledon and Richmond; and reduce noise and emmissions over heavily populated areas.

On the contrary, Western approaches result in Eastern departures. The result being that Central London gets the pollution and noise resulting from the engines being at high power settings.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 36):
PS; PMQ's = Prime Ministers Questions. A weekly meeting in the UK House of Commoms, where the PM answers numerous and varied questions of the day; a scenario that I understand is unusual in many democracies around the world

We have this in NZ as well.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 23):
Britain has not built a new, full-size runway since the 1940s! Wow!

That's in the South East according to the Beeb!
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:27 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 32):
The area has a completely new airport admittedly rather specialised in the City , has had runway extensions at both Stansted and Southend.

None of which were new, full-sized runways.   
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 44):
None of which were new, full-sized runways

Semantics or no Britain is so much more than just one city region !
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:47 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 38):
I understand flights currently approach LHR largely from the east to assist landing by flying into prevailing winds.
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 41):
On the contrary, Western approaches result in Eastern departures. The result being that Central London gets the pollution and noise resulting from the engines being at high power settings.

Here is a statement from the Heathrow web site at:

http://www.heathrowairport.com/noise...heathrow-operations/wind-direction

"During the day, a ‘westerly preference’ is operated at Heathrow. It means that during periods of light easterly winds (up to 5 knots), planes will continue to land in a westerly direction making their final approach over London. The westerly preference was introduced in the 1960s to reduce the numbers of aircraft taking off in an easterly direction over London, i.e. over the most heavily populated side of the airport. This was when departures were considered to be more disruptive than arrivals to local communities."

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 13):
How long is that promise for?

As long as there is a good reason for them to remain in place.

A good example is the Cranford Agreement. This was an oral - not even written - agreement given by the then British government on 31 July 1952. It allowed landings but no take-offs on LHR 09L. The ban was to prevent aircraft taking off over Cranford village located just to the northeast of the airport.

On 15 January 2009 the then British government announced that it was terminating this agreement. This was reaffirmed in September 2010 by the coalition government elected in May 2010. However there were insufficient taxiways to implement the abrogation of the agreement and Heathrow Airport Ltd are reported to be reviewing the return it could obtain on the necessary investment to provide those taxiways. In the meantime the abrogation was welcomed by the Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead over which all landings occur during the 30 per cent of the time that there are easterly operations at LHR. Here I am guessing that one reason HAL have done nothing about the required new taxiways is that they have been waiting on the publication of today's report that obviously has, one way or the other, implications on the future development of LHR.

Note that although the government made a verbal assurance it became written into the airport operating procedures that require the approval of the CAA.

For the more youthful a-netters it is here worth pointing out that take-offs of piston engine aircraft were phenomenally noisy, much, much noisier and disturbing than any modern aircraft. I can attest to that as I lived only a few miles from LHR in the early to mid 1960s and windows and ornaments rattled when a Skyways cargo configured Avro York - the last piston-engine type to regularly use LHR - clawed its way into the air.

Finally another interesting recommendation. The report suggests that with the construction of the third northwest runway the government should look at implementing Public Service Obligation routes like LPL-LHR to improve the connections between LHR and the British provinces.
 
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:07 pm

Interesting, the PM has just said that the government "WILL" act on the "recommendations" of the report by the end of the year, a few people were thinking he would hold off until after London Mayoral elections in the spring so as not to upset Boris.
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:11 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 45):
Semantics or no Britain is so much more than just one city region !

Indeed, and I appreciate now my error was in saying "Britain", rather than "London" in my original post. But regardless, since the topic is a new runway for London, I'm still right!   
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fcogafa
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 46):
Here I am guessing that one reason HAL have done nothing about the required new taxiways is that they have been waiting on the publication of today's report that obviously has, one way or the other, implications on the future development of LHR.

HAL was refused planning permission for a new 09L runway entrance and associated noise barriers by Hillingdon council who are against easterly alternation, whereas Windsor are in favour. HAL have appealed and there is currently an appeal process being heard which should be decided later in the year

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