rutankrd
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 49):
HAL was refused planning permission for a new 09L runway entrance and associated noise barriers by Hillingdon council who are against easterly alternation, whereas Windsor are in favour. HAL have appealed and there is currently an appeal process being heard which should be decided later in the year

Will go to the secretary of state for adjudication then - So probably two/three years to completion (ff favoured) for these relatively small works then.
 
jumpjet
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:54 pm

Perhaps I'd better tread carefully here, but it does annoy me when people who live near to Heathrow complain about the noise. There's no doubt it's so much better than it used to be. When I lived in West Drayton to the north in the mid 70's the row and the very obvious pollution from the smoky Boeings, BAC 111s and Tridents was far worse than it is today.

I also lived in Richmond and I didn't worry about it, I got used to the noise. In fact it fired my enthusiasm for airliners and aviation...

The thing is that the airport's been there far longer than these folks have lived in the area. How can they complain when they knew what they were taking on? I presume that they don't work at Heathrow or ever fly from there themselves?

In reality, it's a no-brainer, it needs to expand and quickly!
 
tortugamon
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:28 pm

Quoting TeamintheSky (Reply 16):
I interpret that to mean it is going to take 5 years to receive all the requisite permissions and 5 years to build.

Got it. Its probably moot anyway.

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 25):
Here you go, happy reading.  

Thanks!

tortugamon
 
uta999
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:53 pm

NATS UK Airspace

Quite a useful site with figures for UK airspace for today and yesterday.

UK flights handled

Departed today 2,296
Landed today 1,905
Currently airborne 620
Handled yesterday 7,303

Updated today at 16:50 (Updated every ten minutes)


http://www.nats.aero/services/airspace/

This compares to the 30+ million cars on UK roads. Who says the environment argument cannot be won in favour of Heathrow?

[Edited 2015-07-01 08:57:16]
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Bongodog1964
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 47):

Interesting, the PM has just said that the government "WILL" act on the "recommendations" of the report by the end of the year, a few people were thinking he would hold off until after London Mayoral elections in the spring so as not to upset Boris.

Boris isn't standing again for London Mayor, having just returned to parliament as the MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip.

One of the current Conservative hopefuls for the Mayoral nomination is Zak Goldsmith presently MP for Richmond, who is making as much noise as Boris about opposing a 3rd runway at LHR.
 
brilondon
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 7):
Anyone want to take odds on when they break ground? I'll take 2021. I'll give the same odds as 'never'.

I will take the over on that one and also take you up on never. I believe we will see a new runway built at LHR, it is just when would be my question. 2025; 2035; 2045; Maybe next century.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 10):
The article I read said no flights, without further details
Quoting VV701 (Reply 31):
A complete night-time curfew between 23:30 and 06:00. This would cause problems on routes from the Far East. For example BA's first HKG departure of the day is at 23:05. This flight is the first one scheduled to arrive at LHR in the morning at 04:45. It is followed by the other BA HKG departure that is scheduled to leave at 23:45.

So for HKG there would be two options. One would be a departure at around 01:00 or later. The other would be a day time flight.

There is going to have to be compromise here. It could be argued that you could allow landing after 2330 and before 0600 in order to accommodate the early flights to and from the Far East on the least disruptive path.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 31):
"All of the three schemes would result in a loss of homes in the local community due
to the land take required to construct the expanded airport, as set out in the Place
module. These impacts would be largest for the Heathrow Airport Northwest
Runway scheme, which would require the loss of 783 homes, including the entire
community of Longford and much of Harmondsworth. The loss of housing required
for the other two schemes would be smaller, though still significant, with 242
houses estimated to be lost as a result of the Heathrow Airport Extended Northern
Runway scheme’s land-take and 167 lost due to the Gatwick Airport Second
Runway scheme."

Throw enough money at them and they will give up their homes. How much that would take is anybody's guess.
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vv701
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 55):
Throw enough money at them and they will give up their homes. How much that would take is anybody's guess.

HAL already have a generous scheme in place. Here it is as described in paragraph 14.43 on page 286 of the report:

"Those closest to the airport boundary and whose homes or businesses would need
to be compulsorily purchased to enable development should be appropriately
compensated. In law, a developer must purchase property for its full unblighted
value (that is the full value of the property without any negative impact from the
proposed development). Heathrow Airport Ltd has proposed that it would purchase
residential property at a higher level (full unblighted market value plus an additional
25% and reasonable costs). This is significantly above the statutory minimum and
also exceeds the offer made by the Government for those who face losing homes
to HS2."

Since the purchases would be under a Compulsory Purchase Order I think the terms are generous. This is particularly true if HAL includes the costs of curtaining and carpeting the new home under "reasonable costs".
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:51 pm

And all this as Heathrow records the Highest UK July temperature EVER according to the Met Office.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/londo...-as-capital-swelters-10358549.html
Plus a bit of bother at Wimbledon.
http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/tenn...ratures-soar-at-sw19-10358341.html
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Revelation
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:07 pm

Quoting jumpjet (Reply 51):
Perhaps I'd better tread carefully here, but it does annoy me when people who live near to Heathrow complain about the noise. There's no doubt it's so much better than it used to be.

It's so much better than it used to be to a fair degree because people complained about the noise...

While some noise and pollution improvements come for other reasons, others happened because people complained loudly enough for the various noise and pollutions regulations to be enacted.
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AirbusA6
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:10 pm

Pollution these days seems to be as much of an issue as noise, the area around Heathrow is very polluted, the combination of the airport and incredibly busy M4 and M25 being bad for Nox
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EPA001
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:13 pm

Heathrow needs an expansion badly. But it needs more than just a new runway to get better connected to the rest of the UK. Since the "main" and best hub for most UK-residents is actually AMS.

See: http://www.citymetric.com/transport/...athrow-its-amsterdam-schiphol-1190
 
BD338
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:27 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 7):
Anyone want to take odds on when they break ground? I'll take 2021. I'll give the same odds as 'never'.

what odds will you give me on AMS building their 6th runway before LHR builds its 3rd?


This one has a long way to go, there's enough caveats in the decision around environmental impacts to make delays, lawsuits, fudgings and indecision a continuation of the art form perfected over the past 50 years of this debate. I still don't think we'll see this in the next 20 years, and I think IAG realized the same and are buying their 3rd runway at DUB.

From project experience I can say the environmental impacts and decisions are frequently driven by opinion rather than scientific data or facts, which just spins out the whole timeline even longer.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:34 pm

Quoting BD338 (Reply 61):
what odds will you give me on AMS building their 6th runway before LHR builds its 3rd

No one will give odd for that -There are already 6 runways .
 
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ro1960
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting afriwing (Reply 34):
[Quote from flightglobal]:
While acknowledging the UK government will need to review its analysis carefully, Davies urges it "not to prolong this process" and to "move as quickly as it can" to a decision. "Further delay will be increasingly costly and will be seen, nationally and internationally, as a sign that the UK is unwilling or unable to take the steps needed to maintain its position as a well-connected, open trading economy in the 21st century," he says.

Now that's possibly the understatement of the year

What are the odds that the two mainland competitors (CDG and AMS) get way ahead in the meantime? Could this divert some of LHR's restricted traffic towards them?
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rutankrd
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting ro1960 (Reply 63):
What are the odds that the two mainland competitors (CDG and AMS) get way ahead in the meantime? Could this divert some of LHR's restricted traffic towards them?

Both still have some way to go on raw passenger numbers and like it or not the London network of airports continue to provide many of those lost minor routes on a point to point basis.

Whilst the number of mainly European routes from Heathrow have declined , the number and variety of non-stop destinations served across the London airports has never been higher.

Thanks in the main to Ryanair/Wizz/Norwegian and Easy the legacies are becoming less of a factor short haul.

The longer term effects of this should not be under estimated.
 
fcogafa
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:58 pm

Some interesting stats on a record day for Heathrow last week:

LHR 1390 moves on 2 runways
AMS 1411 on 5 runways
FRA 1435 on 4 runways
CDG 1465 on 4 runways

Not a bad average rate, especially as LHR does not have the overnight freighters that CDG does.
 
SelseyBill
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 60):
Heathrow needs an expansion badly. But it needs more than just a new runway to get better connected to the rest of the UK. Since the "main" and best hub for most UK-residents is actually AMS

Completely agree.

That was primarily why I was very much a 'fan' of a BA/KLM tie-up; I very much doubt the ME3 would have had the success they have had in the UK market, if BA could have still been able to sell UK regions to the world via AMS, but that's just conjecture on my part.

Having formerly resided in East Anglia and been a regular NWI-AMS KLM customer; I can personally express a preference for AMS over LHR, fantastic service IMO. Not least of course, because of the wide and wonderful rail connections from Schipols' rail station to all parts of The Netherlands and near Europe.

In terms of 'LHR domestic connectivity' it is a planning disaster and IMO a very expensive national disgrace. Only in the UK could we plan our High Speed rail network BEFORE we've decided where to focus our main inter-continental aviation hub.

Hopefully; (now we have The Davies reports recommendations); we can finally get on with a substantive wider UK transport plan; but I'm not holding my breath......
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 60):
Heathrow needs an expansion badly. But it needs more than just a new runway to get better connected to the rest of the UK. Since the "main" and best hub for most UK-residents is actually AMS.

See: http://www.citymetric.com/transport/...athrow-its-amsterdam-schiphol-1190

A quick read shows a level of research and knowledge appropriate to someone of around 14.
  
 
BD338
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting ro1960 (Reply 63):
Quoting BD338 (Reply 61):
what odds will you give me on AMS building their 6th runway before LHR builds its 3rd

No one will give odd for that -There are already 6 runways .

D'oh....forgot about "Oostabaan" ..which rarely (ever?) sees commercial traffic. So I guess the question is either 6 commercial or 7 total.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 67):
A quick read shows a level of research and knowledge appropriate to someone of around 14.

Well, it is an opinion of the writer who is based in Leeds. Not all the "facts" might be correct but I have been a traveller to the UK from AMS and back on a weekly basis for quite some time. By chance my project was also based in Leeds. And many of the colleagues I spoke to about such issues travelled through AMS if they wanted to go abroad. So there is certainly quite a lot of truth of what the writer is stating if I compare that to my own experience.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 60):
Since the "main" and best hub for most UK-residents is actually AMS.

Very interesting article. As an aviation+computer geek, I have to love any aviation article that includes a perl script!

Seems the UK should send the £17.6bn + £5bn given in #40 above to AMS

[Edited 2015-07-01 12:56:23]
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TedToToe
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:16 pm

Given the overwhelming support that LHR has had from the business community and the regions, in particular, Cameron will find it very hard to go against the commission's recommendation. In keeping a lid on any Tory dissent, Davies' proposed curfew will be Important. I count 14 flights due to arrive before 6am tomorrow, and 3 of those are scheduled for 05:55! So, in operational terms, not so bad. In popliteal terms, however, possibly quite crucial.

[Edited 2015-07-01 14:18:24]
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:28 pm

No offense to your country, but Britain seems to have politics and fickle-mindedness of the citizens as bad as some of the much worse levels of the same in the developing world.

And the oppression to the third runway at LHR is a massive testament to that.

Its just plain and simple stupidity written over all their foreheads. People want everything, live near the airport but don't want sound, rave about green earth but drive cars all day, will eat fries and coke but complain about healthcare. Jesus!
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ckfred
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:16 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
Key details of the proposal for LHR
-Third runway
-Promise of no fourth runway
-No flights from 2330 to 0600 daily
-Strict, binding limits on daytime noise level

Let me ask a couple of questions. First, which airports handles the overnight cargo flights. If you look at the large airports in the U.S., there are often several Fed Ex and UPS departures between 10:30 pm and 1:00 am, and then the arrivals come in between 3:30 and 6:30 am.

Second, what happens, when the weather goes south, causing a lot of afternoon and evening operations to get delayed? It certainly isn't unusual for ORD to have a number of arrivals and departures after 10pm, lasting until 1am, if bad weather (fog, severe thunderstorms, snow) has started to wreak operations from late afternoon onward
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 73):
Let me ask a couple of questions. First, which airports handles the overnight cargo flights. If you look at the large airports in the U.S., there are often several Fed Ex and UPS departures between 10:30 pm and 1:00 am, and then the arrivals come in between 3:30 and 6:30 am.

Both Fed Ex and UPS have their base at STN, I doubt they have any intention of moving
 
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thekorean
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:34 pm

Doesn't STN handle a lot of cargo flights?

Do they have curfews?
 
rutankrd
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 73):
First, which airports handles the overnight cargo flights. If you look at the large airports in the U.S., there are often several Fed Ex and UPS departures between 10:30 pm and 1:00 am, and then the arrivals come in between 3:30 and 6:30 am

Primarily Stansted and East Midlands.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 73):
Second, what happens, when the weather goes south, causing a lot of afternoon and evening operations to get delayed? It certainly isn't unusual for ORD to have a number of arrivals and departures after 10pm, lasting until 1a

Heathrow flow control measures are enforced with increased spacing and reduced slots - Enforced cancellations result usually to the limited domestic and near EU services by BA in particular.

Fog in the UK tends to be in the mornings .

Snow (relatively rare) causes huge disruption when it happens . Many departure flights cancelled and inbound arrivals diverted all over the UK and near Europe.

[Edited 2015-07-01 14:36:48]
 
frostyj
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:48 pm

Whats the point in telling us that they are doing this in 5 years time?
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Bongodog1964
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 77):

Whats the point in telling us that they are doing this in 5 years time?

This is probably the most significant UK civil aviation announcement in the last 50 years, and you don't think its worth them telling us
  
 
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Revelation
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 77):
Whats the point in telling us that they are doing this in 5 years time?

It'll take them five years to get the necessary permits etc.
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par13del
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:49 pm

Well one can just get an idea of where things are heading, and this is just the Guardian, I'll leave the Mail alone
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-on-expanding-heathrow-just-say-no
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...athrow-report-cameron-off-the-hook
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...ening-londons-air-pollution-crisis

...they keep on coming, delivering the report was easy.
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting ba6590 (Reply 4):

The commission was set up to consider airport expansion in the south east of England.

Three options were short listed. A third runway at Heathrow, a second at Gatwick, or lengthening one of Heathrow runways.

Looks like they are recommending a third runway at Heathrow as the best option.

At least as long as they have committees meeting and putting out recomendations it will look like progress is being made.
 
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PA727
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:45 am

Seems to me the biggest threat to air quality in London are the condescending gasbags with the tabloids.
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:22 am

What idiots!

Heathrow needs 4 runways now, and Gatwick should get at least 1 new runway too. More runways would greatly decrease the holding patterns around London while reducing fuel consumption and make it easier to recover from weather disruptions to schedules.
 
vv701
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:08 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 73):
what happens, when the weather goes south, causing a lot of afternoon and evening operations to get delayed?

Probably what happens currently at LCY.

The weekend curfew at LCY is strictly enforced. So, as a single example, BA CityFlyer E-190 G-LCYU operating MAH-LCY as BA8750 on Saturday 30 May with a scheduled arrival at 10:50 hrs departed MAH 2 hrs 57 mins late. There is a weekend curfew operating at LCY on Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning. It operates from 13:00 hrs on Saturday until 11:00 hrs on Sunday. So this particular flight could not reach LCY before the curfew started. As a result it diverted to SEN. Late on Sunday morning the aircraft positioned SEN-LCY as BA9751P where it re-entered service.

Likely diversionary airports for LHR are LGW and STN.

As an adjunct to this what currently happens at LHR early in the morning is not completely irrelevant . A number of flights are scheduled to arrive between 04:45 and 06:00 hrs. These are not simply limited to a fixed number of landing slots. Rather they are limited by a formula based on total cumulative noise. Hence the substitution of more modern, quieter aircraft on some of these flights could result in an increased actual number of arrivals in this period. Then from 06:00 to 06:20 there are no assigned landing slots. However these twenty minutes are used to land primarily trans-Atlantic flights that arrive early when the jet stream is particularly strong. This avoids the necessity to stack the aircraft which would result in higher fuel burn and greater levels of atmospheric pollution.
 
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winterlight
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:11 pm

Anti-expansion activists have recently been protesting in the entrance tunnel. Expect delays in the area. Photos on Twitter show a van covered in a banner blocking both lanes.
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RayChuang
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:27 pm

I think in the end, building the third runway at LHR will be the final choice.

Remember, with most planes flying in and out of LHR already meeting Quota Count 2 regulations, that means jet engine noise is not as much an issue as it used to be. And will be even less so over the next decade as even quieter planes like the A320neo Family, A330neo, A350XWB, A380, 737MAX, 777 and 787 are essentially all the planes that in and out of this airport.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 86):
Remember, with most planes flying in and out of LHR already meeting Quota Count 2 regulations, that means jet engine noise is not as much an issue as it used to be. And will be even less so over the next decade as even quieter planes like the A320neo Family, A330neo, A350XWB, A380, 737MAX, 777 and 787 are essentially all the planes that in and out of this airport.

This effect is already built in to the reports assessment
 
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winterlight
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:32 pm

A380s are not quite! Especially on departure.
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vv701
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 88):
A380s are not quite! Especially on departure.

The Quota Count system is used at LHR to minimise aircraft landing noise in the 04:45 to 06:00 period. Aircraft using LHR during this period have the following assigned QC values:

A 380: 0.5

A 340, B 772 and 763: 1.0

B 744: 2.0

When applied this means that two 380s can replace a single 340, 772 or 763 and four 380s can replace one 744 arrival in the restricted period.

This system has been in use at LHR since 1993 when it replaced a simple restriction on the number of arrival slots. It is also used to control all night time movements at both LGW and STN. Other airports that use it include BRU and MAD.

The Airports Commission report, of course, recommends no arrivals in this period or, indeed, any other night-time movements.

More detail on the system itself here:

http://web.archive.org/web/200707170...hrowg/nightnoisequotasprintversion
 
gulfstream650
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:50 pm

GET ON WITH IT!!!!!!!
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Egerton
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:16 am

Writing a 4,500 word response in February 2015 to the Airports Commission (AC) invitation to consult, I suggested:

1. Concentrate London airport expansion on LHR: AC have agreed.

2. Schedule runways at only 75% of Summer and Winter theoretical capacity for better punctuality, resilience and a step change in the passenger experience. AC have failed.

3. Thus making LHR more sustainable with near zero aircraft in holding stacks and near zero queuing to take off. AC have failed.

4. Set aside LHR slots exclusively for additional smaller domestic destinations than those currently served, enabling new direct air services to the UK's four constituent nations and their regions. AC have agreed.

5. Choose the LHR Extended Northern Runway. AC have failed, but with extenuating circumstances

6. Follow up with an LHR Extended Southern Runway (4th LHR runway). AC have failed disastrously.

In my view, Parliament has serious work to do on this AC Final Report.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:36 am

Quoting winterlight (Reply 88):
A380s are not quite! Especially on departure.

Let's see some empirical evidence to support this claim, because what I hear with my own ears disagrees with what you're suggesting.
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winterlight
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:46 pm

I lived under the 09R north easterly departure track, I must say that A380s make a hell of a rattling sound, especially in overcast conditions. RR powered examples are worse.
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rutankrd
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting Egerton (Reply 91):
4. Set aside LHR slots exclusively for additional smaller domestic destinations than those currently served, enabling new direct air services to the UK's four constituent nations and their regions. AC have agreed.

This whilst ideologically a good idea , really needs caveats attached.

Fact is many of those previous and now lost routes simply couldn't even cover operating cost let alone make a profit.

And almost certainly won't even with available slots if ever tried again.

The best evidence of the conundrum must surely be bmi and the Glasgow route.

Carried significant passenger number however far to much being Codeshare connects.

The allocated costs from those codeshares was to put it simply trash.

The only way the BA shuttles survive is actually via a balance of full fare point to point traffic - This makes the money to cover costs.

So unless sufficient passengers in say Liverpool Newquay or Tees-side can be persuaded to pay the requisite commuter fares - Someone is going to have to subsidise these routes.

As for the many comments largely from the US that they should go straight to a 4 runway operation why and on what economical case ?

It's not as if there is any case for comparing LHR to the US mega hubs dominated by 100s of regional jets to a thousand little communities.

That domestic client base is better served via rail and road here.

Another thing probably cultural but you just wouldn't persuade many/anyone to consider say NCL-LHR-MAN where mileage wise something similar across a US mega hub happens all the time.
 
vv701
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 94):
So unless sufficient passengers in say Liverpool Newquay or Tees-side can be persuaded to pay the requisite commuter fares - Someone is going to have to subsidise these routes.

The Airport Commision Report has made a recommendation on subsidy in this area as I detailed earlier:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 46):
Finally another interesting recommendation. The report suggests that with the construction of the third northwest runway the government should look at implementing Public Service Obligation routes like LPL-LHR to improve the connections between LHR and the British provinces.

Here is paragraph 15.16 extracted from p. 315 of the report:


'The UK has in the last 12 months established two PSOs, one from Newquay Airport
to London Gatwick and the other from Dundee Airport to London Stansted. Both
routes were subsidised out of the Government’s Regional Air Connectivity Fund
(RACF), a £20 million fund set aside by the coalition Government to safeguard
routes to and from the London airport system and the UK regions.'


There is significantly more comment on this subject in adjacent paragraphs to the above (see pp. 315-16 of report)
 
Egerton
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 94):

Thanks.
On my point 4. (Set aside LHR slots exclusively for additional smaller domestic destinations than those currently served, enabling new direct air services to the UK's four constituent nations and their regions. AC have agreed.)

AC have agreed, so not much to debate.

But £billions have been spent and wasted in a search dating back to the 1960's for a regional policy fix to deal with wealth inequalities across the UK. The 1978 Joel Barnett Formula quick fix which sought to equalise wealth across the UK's four nations is still in use nearly 40 years later and is expected to continue in use into the future. This testifies to the continuing relative lack of success of regional policies.

Yet the air transport arm of the UK Government has watched silently their very effective destruction of regional policy resulting from the unexpected by-product of their slot allocation system, which is otherwise a good system.

It is time to ensure that LHR works better for the whole of the UK. No other London airport has the potential, it can only be done at an expanded LHR hub which could and should be conceived and planned to do so.

On my 4 runway at LHR point, if the 75% rule was applied (see my point 2) the effect on movements would be the same as having 3 runways operating at 100%.

Hope this helps?

[Edited 2015-07-03 07:17:01]

[Edited 2015-07-03 07:17:59]
 
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TedToToe
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:36 pm

Quoting Egerton (Reply 91):
2. Schedule runways at only 75% of Summer and Winter theoretical capacity for better punctuality, resilience and a step change in the passenger experience.

5. Choose the LHR Extended Northern Runway.


These two statements conflict with each other from a resilience point of view. With three runways, there will be periods when two are used for landing, and periods when two will be used for takeoff. Imagine, now, that the southern runway is closed. With an extended Northern runway, one end can be used for landing and the other end for takeoff; meaning that either arrivals or departures will back-up. Under the Northwestern plan, one runway can be used in mixed mode; meaning that neither arrivals or departures should back-up. As for the fourth runway, this was even less likely than the AC recommending an additional runway at both LHR and LGW.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:42 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 92):
Let's see some empirical evidence to support this claim, because what I hear with my own ears disagrees with what you're suggesting.

My ears are also telling me that the A380 is very quiet all around. As a passenger but also as someone who is on the outside standing by a runway to see and hear her taking off.  
 
Egerton
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RE: Heathrow To Be Named As Preferred Option

Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting TedToToe (Reply 97):

Thanks.
May I venture to suggest that my 6 suggestions to the AC should be read and considered together.

It is hot here and maybe my little grey cells are on strike. I am not sure about your logic for the Northern Runway in the event of a resilience issue. In either case for a three runway LHR, (NR or ENR) and a blocked existing Southern Runway, perhaps the outcome would be the same - but I do not propose to get into an argument about this.

On the resilient point more widely, we see daily the issues arising from the absence of 'spare' runway capacity. If a 75% rule was introduced, the airlines would get better utilisation from their aeroplanes which would not be sitting around in a queue on the ground or in the air, consuming fuel. So also a sustainability benefit.

On the 75% rule and the 4 runway suggestions, the fact that spare runway capacity exits does not mean it should be used. It exists for the reasons given above, the main one is a step change in the passenger experience. I am not taking about shopping experience, but about the passenger (and meet and greeter) experience of a new level of reliability for departures and arrivals being on time.

Hope this helps.

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