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Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:53 am

Part 80 was getting too long with over 200 replies so I made a new thread to continue the discussion:

Malaysia Airlines B772 KUL-PEK Missing - Part 80 (by American 767 May 15 2015 in Civil Aviation)

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mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:16 am

Quoting 777jet (Reply 199):
Media attention to this incident has been on the decline and the average person is probably forgetting about MH370.

No, they still ask me and a couple of others if something new has come out or if a new theory has come out.
But no, they don't go on a drivel trying to bash the public's head with a theory and getting people to lambast another.

Quoting 777jet (Reply 199):
Still less elaborate / complex than some of the 9/11 conspiracy theories

Some people need to understand airmanship and flight safety is elaborate and simple at the same time...  
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:53 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 1):
No, they still ask me and a couple of others if something new has come out or if a new theory has come out.

Just you and a couple of others?

Would I be correct if I guessed that there are fewer different media entities enquiring about MH370 now and those that do enquire less often?

When I said that "Media attention to this incident has been on the decline" I never meant that it was virtually non-existent at all...  
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 1):
Quoting 777jet (Reply 199):Still less elaborate / complex than some of the 9/11 conspiracy theories

Some people need to understand airmanship and flight safety is elaborate and simple at the same time...

The original "elaborate" comment was made in regards to the idea / scenario that the plane might have been taken for its cargo / contents, and that that specific Captain was picked to operate that flight to divert attention, which would require others to be in on it.

If something along those lines occurred it would have been an elaborate / complex operation.  
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abba
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:55 am

Quoting 777Jet from Part 80 : "That the MH370 Captain, or both pilots for that matter, have no juicy medical history is irrelevant if one of them acted for a reason with no relevance to medical issues at all - such as a political reason"

Crashing a plane for political reasons?

If Z wanted to make a statement, he failed. And most likely he would have done something entirely different and much more spectacular. At least he would have left some kind of statement.

If he was just depressed because of the Anwar Ibrahim trail? Well, Z was an astute atheist and Anwar a strong believing Muslim politician who wanted to make Malaysia a Muslim country governed by (soft) sharia.... I consider this entire theory less than likely.
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:07 pm

This Associated Press article notes some questions as to the company that has been leading the underwater search for this plane as to their competency and missing possible debris in their process:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/...flight-370/ar-AAcvltD?ocid=DELLDHP
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:52 pm

The Maldives sighting should not be considered as resolved.
Instead, it seems, the recent Le Monde article serves as a tick in one of the boxes on the list of loose ends to be tied up. Probably to give the impression, in the eyes of the public, that everything in regard to MH370 was done and checked and that it is now time to let go, let it rest. Forget it ….
Unless there were technical reasons for the disappearance of MH370, the perpetrator or perpetrators will have got away with it (again).

Shortly after the MH370 mishap, last year, the message was loud and clear; the Maldives authorities are adamant that there were no such aircraft movements at the time of the sighting.

An article in The Weekend Australian, a few months ago, seemed to strongly contradict that, reporting that the islanders did see a big aircraft flying low, if not MH370.
The Australian had this to say:
“A senior source familiar with the police probe confirmed the witness accounts were regarded as truthful and consistent.”
“These people were not seeking attention and they did not go to the police about it, the police went to them after hearing about this,’’ the source says. “They are not dishonest and they have no motive to lie. They all told the police it was big, low and noisy. If it was not the missing plane, then which plane was it? We do not see planes close and low to Kuda ¬Huvadhoo. Nobody knows what has really happened.”

In stark contrast, Le Monde quotes this:
"The witness statements were highly inconsistent", was all that the spokesman for the Maldivian police was prepared to say.

Le Monde is also reporting that the aircraft was a DHC-8, a much smaller aircraft than a big airliner that the islanders described in other reports.
And yet, a superficial internet search seems to indicate that the Maldivian airline doesn’t even operate DHC-8’s, only float planes.

The messages we are getting don’t tally; ergo, the issue(s) surrounding that sighting cannot be considered as resolved.

On a totally different note:
I have it on good (and first hand) authority that the station personnel at Macquarie Island did not find any debris that might have originated from MH370.
Whilst the station has continuous programs of regularly collecting flotsam on the West Coast, the crew there did not set out to specifically look for any such debris nor was the station officially asked to do so.

Edit: Better choice of word

[Edited 2015-07-03 06:08:39]
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:05 pm

Already the search has cost Australia and Malaysia $45 million. Australia expects it will cost another $80 million in the fiscal year that started Wednesday, and hopes Malaysia will again pay half.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/2015...ysia-missing-plane-078a89179d.html


Why is the country of Australia spending millions on this search??? Shouldn't the country of Malaysia foot the search bill??? If running an airline is too expensive for Malaysia, then maybe they should just use ships for transport...

[Edited 2015-07-03 07:16:50]
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:24 am

Quoting abba (Reply 3):
Crashing a plane for political reasons?

If Z wanted to make a statement, he failed.

Not necessarily. Not if it was his intention to somehow, even in the slightest way, undermine the Government that he passionately protested against.

The Malaysian ruling party who had to handle MH370 made themselves look like incompetent liars.

Also, if making the plane hard to find was how he was going to do it -(how could Malaysia loose a 777 with 239 SOB?)- then he achieved one objective and partly achieved the other because:

1) Over 1 year later the plane is still missing - If Z did it then perhaps not even he thought that he could pull this off so well that the plane would still be missing over 1 year later, and;

2) As I previously said, the Malaysian Government has ended up looking like incompetent liars because of the way they handled, and are still handling, MH370.

Quoting abba (Reply 3):
And most likely he would have done something entirely different and much more spectacular.

Not necessarily. Perhaps somebody more careless would do it that way.

Why tarnish your family name and a possible insurance payout for your family by doing something spectacular in which more fingers would be pointed at you when you can make it look like a possible accident?

Quoting abba (Reply 3):
At least he would have left some kind of statement.

Again, not necessarily.

Why tarnish your family name and a possible insurance payout for your family by leaving an admission of guilt?

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 6):
Why is the country of Australia spending millions on this search???

Because the Government is partly stupid like most Governments.

Nonetheless, there are worse things that that money could be spent on.

As an aviation enthusiast and as somebody who wants answers I don't mind my tax being spent on the search for MH370 despite my feeling that Malaysia should foot the entire bill.

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 6):
Shouldn't the country of Malaysia foot the search bill???

IMHO Yes.

It is their lost property that is being searched for.

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 6):
If running an airline is too expensive for Malaysia, then maybe they should just use ships for transport...

They'd probably loose a ship too and then get others to pay for the search  

[Edited 2015-07-03 18:31:32]
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:25 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 7):
Not necessarily. Perhaps somebody more careless would do it that way.

Why tarnish your family name and a possible insurance payout for your family by doing something spectacular in which more fingers would be pointed at you when you can make it look like a possible accident?

Well - this is not impossible, but IMHO not very likely. It illustrates the problem of "the pilot did it" theory, namely that it can explain almost anything.
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:40 am

I know alot of people in MH, not one has a bad word to say about the captain, Mr Z, instead everyone praises him no matter what race they are.
The new co pilot though is known for temper oisues, known for threatening that his connectiobs will sort oeople out etc.

Why on earth would a stable, highly qualified captain be suspect?
When second pilot has bad temper, known to be pissed off with MH staff who questions his competency, who were against his too rapid promotion to 777...
A man whose job is only there due to family links to yhe ruling party?

Cant understand yhe reasoning.
Captain being an opposition supporter, absolutely, together with 90% of all flying MH staff...
Would be more strange ifche weren't.
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mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 9):
I know alot of people in MH, not one has a bad word to say about the captain, Mr Z, instead everyone praises him no matter what race they are.
The new co pilot though is known for temper oisues, known for threatening that his connectiobs will sort oeople out etc.

Despite experiencing the same remarks from a lot of people at MH, I guess for some, such facts/views are unacceptable and shall be deemed as obfuscation or stonewalling or diverting from the real issue... based on past experience on this topic...
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:18 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 9):
I know alot of people in MH, not one has a bad word to say about the captain, Mr Z, instead everyone praises him no matter what race they are.
The new co pilot though is known for temper oisues, known for threatening that his connectiobs will sort oeople out etc.

Why on earth would a stable, highly qualified captain be suspect?
When second pilot has bad temper, known to be pissed off with MH staff who questions his competency, who were against his too rapid promotion to 777...
A man whose job is only there due to family links to yhe ruling party?

Cant understand yhe reasoning.
Captain being an opposition supporter, absolutely, together with 90% of all flying MH staff...
Would be more strange ifche weren't.

The differences between the two pilots you describe are one reason I would not rule out MH370 being the tragic consequence of a possible altercation in the cockpit.

Given the FO's family ties to the ruling party, the Captain's interest in the opposition, and the political 'Anwar Verdict' just hours earlier, I just wonder if something was said and then words escalated.

Perhaps F made a comment about Anwar that turned up the heat?

Perhaps things reached boiling point just before or after the ATC hand-off?

The eventual survivor then made a decision not to return and face the music.

Many threads ago one member suggested that F might have taken out Z in this scenario and then decided not to return.

Who really knows, but such a scenario is possible, and it is one of the scenarios towards the top of my list of most probable.
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 11):
Given the FO's family ties to the ruling party, the Captain's interest in the opposition, and the political 'Anwar Verdict' just hours earlier, I just wonder if something was said and then words escalated.

Perhaps F made a comment about Anwar that turned up the heat?

Perhaps things reached boiling point just before or after the ATC hand-off?

The eventual survivor then made a decision not to return and face the music.

IMHO, there are several (many) problems with such a scenario: That it was in fact pre-meditated by Zaharie is much more likely given how events appear to have transpired.

Here is why:

1) Zaharie's stare into the camera at the security checkpoint. IMO this is deliberate.

2) Zaharie's constant imploring of Malaysians to act in the face of repression, not sit idly by. This is evidenced throughout his social media postings.

3) He was the last voice heard. He indicated no problem whatsoever to KLATCC at the hand-off (he had every opportunity to do so), and then mysteriously failed to read back the HCM frequency. Shortly thereafter the a/c goes dark.

4) Zaharie was THE man in charge. Surely Fariq would have known all to well about Z's political views. I personally can't imagine an FO on his first flight with Z ,just hours after the Anwar verdict, pushing Z's buttons.

5) The supposed attempted phone call from Fariq. IF this event occurred, it makes NO sense if Fariq was the nefarious actor.

6) Again, the flight path appears to be premeditated. The perfect timing at IGARI suggests something other than a skirmish on the flight deck and an impromptu rash decision.

7) Their respective stations in life. Z was beyond doubt disenchanted, angry and determined to take some sort of action. Mr. Hamid, on the other hand, had every reason to believe in a bright and prosperous future. He was also very much in love.

8) Zaharie's state of mind that evening. There is no doubt that he would not have been in a pleasant mood du to the appeals court ruling that morning. This is in every way a reasonable inference. Fariq, on the other hand, would have been approving of the courts verdict according to his political affiliations.

9) Reports that Zaharie had no future plans or commitments. Again, this is demonstrative of premeditation, not an altercation that provoked.

I could go on, and on and on and on.

Of course, Fariq could have snapped...I wopuld put the chance of this being the case somewhere close to zero.

[Edited 2015-07-05 13:30:28]
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 7):
The Malaysian ruling party who had to handle MH370 made themselves look like incompetent liars.

I think for the most world this looks like a mystery, an unresolved terror attack possibly but not necessarily by the crew. Stuff for the TV shows to speculate.

I think the Malaysians-look-incompetent things isn't really registering on the richter scale, except maybe in this thread for some members.

If you think they are incompetent... take a look at some other governments. While accident investigations are usually performed reasonably well, there's plenty of other silliness all over the place.
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:17 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
1) Zaharie's stare into the camera at the security checkpoint. IMO this is deliberate.

Oh please.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
2) Zaharie's constant imploring of Malaysians to act in the face of repression, not sit idly by. This is evidenced throughout his social media postings.

Those posts ended 9 months before the disappearance of MH370.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
3) He was the last voice heard.

So?

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
4) Zaharie was THE man in charge.

So?

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
5) The supposed attempted phone call from Fariq. IF this event occurred,

Which the accident report doesn't mention. Hence, we must assume that it didn't happen.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
6) Again, the flight path appears to be premeditated.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
7) Their respective stations in life.Z was beyond doubt disenchanted, angry and determined to take some sort of action.

Not what is written in the accident report.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
8) Zaharie's state of mind that evening. There is no doubt that he would not have been in a pleasant mood du to the appeals court ruling that morning.

Not what is written in the accident report.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
9) Reports that Zaharie had no future plans or commitments.

Not what is written in the accident report.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
I could go on, and on and on and on.

We know.

[Edited 2015-07-05 15:32:27]
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
Their respective stations in life. Z was beyond doubt disenchanted, angry and determined to take some sort of action. Mr. Hamid, on the other hand, had every reason to believe in a bright and prosperous future. He was also very much in love.

When someone can evaluate another person life, outcomes and relationship love just after an accident I know reality is either fixed to someone agenda or simply put crazy.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
I could go on, and on and on and on.

You have, you are, and you will.... but that won't make it conclusive.

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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:21 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 12):
Of course, Fariq could have snapped...I wopuld put the chance of this being the case somewhere close to zero.

I don't think that F snapped, and that is not what my previous post intended to imply.

I just wouldn't rule out F having made a political comment that might have upset Z.

Who knows where things could have headed from that point if something was said and then things escalated.

I just don't by the idea that this had to have been a premeditated incident if one of the crew were responsible.

FWIW I don't see anything unusual regarding the security checkpoint camera footage.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 13):
I think the Malaysians-look-incompetent things isn't really registering on the richter scale, except maybe in this thread for some members.

That doesn't surprise me.

I'm not surprised that the lies told by the authorities in Malaysia handling MH370, as well as their overall incompetence in the handling of MH370, don't register for most folk nowadays who walk around with their eyes closed and are focused on more important things such as playing Candy Crush Saga  

Hishammuddin alone deserves a gold medal in the category of telling lies and demonstrating incompetence (at least he was appropriately dressed whilst earning it)  
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 13):
If you think they are incompetent... take a look at some other governments. While accident investigations are usually performed reasonably well, there's plenty of other silliness all over the place.

I agree with that point.

Having said that, the Malaysian authorities did at pretty good job at turning MH370 into a cover-up from day one  
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YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:44 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 16):
Having said that, the Malaysian authorities did at pretty good job at turning MH370 into a cover-up from day one

The gist of that just one sentence is probably the best indicator that in the case of MH370 we are not dealing with suicide by either the Captain or First Officer. Had it been that, it would have played right into the hands of the authorities, albeit with a bit of feigned reluctance at first.
Eventually the public would have got over it and the mystery would have been solved.

Instead, as you point out correctly, we have seen cover-ups, obfuscation right from (or especially in) the beginning and bungling of the early response stages.

Authorities will not oblige with the truth if they don't want the public to know what really happened; not only the public, the personnel in the greater aviation industry is probably not meant to know either.

And yet, there are probably quite a few people, from that very industry, who do know exactly what happened to MH370. But they can't tell because of real and serious threats to their person or livelihood.
It is this, in a nutshell, that's been my suspicion from very early on.
 
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:46 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 9):
I know alot of people in MH, not one has a bad word to say about the captain, Mr Z, instead everyone praises him no matter what race they are.
The new co pilot though is known for temper oisues, known for threatening that his connectiobs will sort oeople out etc.

Why on earth would a stable, highly qualified captain be suspect?
When second pilot has bad temper, known to be pissed off with MH staff who questions his competency, who were against his too rapid promotion to 777...
A man whose job is only there due to family links to yhe ruling party?

Cant understand yhe reasoning.
Captain being an opposition supporter, absolutely, together with 90% of all flying MH staff...
Would be more strange ifche weren't.
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 10):
Despite experiencing the same remarks from a lot of people at MH, I guess for some, such facts/views are unacceptable and shall be deemed as obfuscation or stonewalling or diverting from the real issue... based on past experience on this topic...


Considering the quite widespread questions as to Fariq's flying competency, it does make it rather incredible to even consider he had the ability and prowess, on his own and without assistance, to disable systems so comprehensively, avoid ATC agencies and navigate a B772 to a mystery destination without a single soul seeing or suspecting a thing.

I just don't think he was capable, though this does not in any way put me in the camp of believing the only option is that Zahari did it.

Rgds
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mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 18):
it does make it rather incredible to even consider he had the ability and prowess, on his own and without assistance, to disable systems so comprehensively,

It's not incredible. He just finished his 777 type rating course and examination. Anyway, if a non-type rated person like me and some other participants of this forum can figure out what to and what not to switch off, why not him?
People tend to "underestimate the newbie" without realizing what "the newbie" can know.
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 19):

It's not incredible. He just finished his 777 type rating course and examination. Anyway, if a non-type rated person like me and some other participants of this forum can figure out what to and what not to switch off, why not him?
People tend to "underestimate the newbie" without realizing what "the newbie" can know.

I've heard two people describe his flying abilities as "clumsy."

I don't see how a pilot with clumsy flying skills could adeptly navigate a triple 7 to a mystery location of doom without a single soul spotting and tracking it all on his own; To me, it's less convincing than the extremely dubious argument that Zahari did it.

Neither, to my mind, have any credibility whatsoever.

Rgds
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FltAdmiralRitt
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:17 am

With regards to a cover-up by the authorities. it is possible a foreign government put pressure on
them to distract and keep the nature of the motivation to bring down the airliner secret. I don't think any domestic embarassment short of a military accident is motivation enough to cover things up, the risk is too high.

It would have to be a powerfull goverment that threatens the Ruling elite with financial loss (or
even targeted sanctions on the cream at the top) This is the one the few plausible alternate possibilites
which along with EE bay/cockpit EVENT, both very small in chance, that could have resulted in the loss of the AC
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:37 am

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 20):
I've heard two people describe his flying abilities as "clumsy."

I don't see how a pilot with clumsy flying skills could adeptly navigate a triple 7 to a mystery location of doom without a single soul spotting and tracking it all on his own; To me, it's less convincing than the extremely dubious argument that Zahari did it.

From what I heard from ppl in MH. F's hand flying skills were clumsy but he can fire away on the MCP and FMC no problems... one of those "auto-moto" types.
And the sad thing about this mystery, if deliberate, is actually pretty easily done. No need for amazing skills. People tend to forget that. And because it's easy, it's extremely important that we know for a fact (by finding it and pulling the black boxes out), that this was deliberate or not.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 20):
Neither, to my mind, have any credibility whatsoever.

They're both equally credible or equally lack credibility.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
abba
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:34 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 11):
Given the FO's family ties to the ruling party, the Captain's interest in the opposition, and the political 'Anwar Verdict' just hours earlier, I just wonder if something was said and then words escalated

p

It is though important to remember the extreemy different outlooks between Z and Anwar. While Z were an atheist Anwar is a muslim politician who wants to turn Malaysia into a Muslim country. Now Z might have prefered Anwar as the lesser evil compared to the present roulers. Much more do not make much sense.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:10 pm

What is the progress on the search so far.......
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:26 am

Quoting abba (Reply 23):
It is though important to remember the extreemy different outlooks between Z and Anwar. While Z were an atheist Anwar is a muslim politician who wants to turn Malaysia into a Muslim country. Now Z might have prefered Anwar as the lesser evil compared to the present roulers. Much more do not make much sense.

That's funny, because his family and friends all say what a good muslim he was. So who's correct, them or you??

[Edited 2015-07-10 20:38:40]
 
huxrules
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 4):
This Associated Press article notes some questions as to the company that has been leading the underwater search for this plane as to their competency and missing possible debris in their process:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/...flight-370/ar-AAcvltD?ocid=DELLDHP

This article gets it all wrong. There were two teams searching for the plane. One headed by Fugro (using an AUV) and one headed by Go Phoenix/SL Hydrospheric (Towed SAS). Fugro is the largest underwater survey company in the world and is very competent. The SL Htydrospheric team has one of the most advanced fishes in the world (thats the fish set to scan 2000m). This article is just a hit piece as I think Australia is rebidding the search.

Releasing the data (especially the bluefin data from the first days of the search) is an excellent idea. I'm not sure if the Australians have used a third party to keep the survey companies in line. That is par for the course in oil and gas.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:45 am

Quoting huxrules (Reply 26):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 4):This Associated Press article notes some questions as to the company that has been leading the underwater search for this plane as to their competency and missing possible debris in their process:http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/...flight-370/ar-AAcvltD?ocid=DELLDHP

This article gets it all wrong. There were two teams searching for the plane. One headed by Fugro (using an AUV) and one headed by Go Phoenix/SL Hydrospheric (Towed SAS). Fugro is the largest underwater survey company in the world and is very competent. The SL Htydrospheric team has one of the most advanced fishes in the world (thats the fish set to scan 2000m). This article is just a hit piece as I think Australia is rebidding the search. Releasing the data (especially the bluefin data from the first days of the search) is an excellent idea. I'm not sure if the Australians have used a third party to keep the survey companies in line. That is par for the course in oil and gas.

That article is from the US MSN website.

I am wondering why Australia keeps paying some of the bill for the search for MH370 given that the Search and Rescue phase ended some months ago.

As far as I'm aware, Australia's obligations ended after the Search and Recuse phase ended.

Why isn't the US contributing more towards the search for the missing US manufactured airplane?

Shouldn't the US be contributing more towards the search and finding out what caused a US manufactured airplane to disappear for so long in the interest of improving aviation safety and trying to prevent a similar occurrence from happening again?

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 22):
From what I heard from ppl in MH. F's hand flying skills were clumsy but he can fire away on the MCP and FMC no problems... one of those "auto-moto" types.

Sad to learn that this connected young FO with possible clumsy hand flying skills got type rated on one of the biggest commercial airplanes around  

I hope, for the sake of all passengers, that the computers never fail on a plane that has pilots with clumsy hand flying skills up front  

At least F had Z there to help him out if needed  
Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 21):
With regards to a cover-up by the authorities. it is possible a foreign government put pressure on
them to distract and keep the nature of the motivation to bring down the airliner secret. I don't think any domestic embarassment short of a military accident is motivation enough to cover things up, the risk is too high.

It would have to be a powerfull goverment that threatens the Ruling elite with financial loss (or
even targeted sanctions on the cream at the top) This is the one the few plausible alternate possibilites
which along with EE bay/cockpit EVENT, both very small in chance, that could have resulted in the loss of the AC

On the topic of cover-ups, just look at the way Egypt handled Egypt Air 990 - "It must have been mechanical because an Egyptian would never do something like that"

For those who say that if the MH370 Captain did it, the Malaysian ruling party would have been quick to point the blame at the Anwar / Opposition supporting Captain to gain some political points: You are wrong.

Egypt Air 990 is the perfect example of why.

The Egyptian Government was more interested in protecting the image of Egyptians as a whole instead of recognising what actually happened - that an Egyptian pilot committed suicide / mass murder.

I believe the Malaysian Government would do something similar if they believed, or even knew, that the Captain did it.

I believe the Malaysian Government would be more interested in protecting the image of all of their own people by forgoing the opportunity to score a few political points by discrediting the *Malaysian* opposition.

That is why they have never really pointed the finger at the Captain who, despite political differences, is one of their own.

They might very well have worked out that by pointing the finger at Z they would have lost more face than they would have gained  

  
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oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 27):
They might very well have worked out that by pointing the finger at Z they would have lost more face than they would have gained  

Yeah, like WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD HE HAVE DONE THIS. Don't think Hishammuddin and Najib would publicly want to confront this question.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 27):
Why isn't the US contributing more towards the search for the missing US manufactured airplane?

Shouldn't the US be contributing more towards the search and finding out what caused a US manufactured airplane to disappear for so long in the interest of improving aviation safety and trying to prevent a similar occurrence from happening again?

I strongly believe that when the US called off their commitment to the search, its is likely because they found the plane and sent a commando team and took care of it.

This airplane was hijacked likely by one of the pilots, went incognito by turning off its transponders, and flown somewhere to be later used to cause a terrorist attack. He most likely depressurized the cabin until the passenger and cabin oxygen systems ran out as explainable when he climbed to much higher altitudes. He had a much greater length of oxygen time in the cockpit.

If this airplane had flown into the ocean, no matter how, some pieces would have been found by now. That is why it is most likely it landed somewhere and the US special forces located it shortly after.

That's my theory.
Only the paranoid survive
 
abba
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 25):
That's funny, because his family and friends all say what a good muslim he was. So who's correct, them or you??

Well - this is usually what you would expect his friends and family to say AFTER he is dead. Before, though, he himself were rather clear about his views on religion according to all reports.
 
kurtjeter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:10 pm

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 29):
If this airplane had flown into the ocean, no matter how, some pieces would have been found by now. That is why it is most likely it landed somewhere and the US special forces located it shortly after.

That's my theory.

And you really think that, 16 months later, this would still be a secret kept? NO word leaking out? Given the number of people (at various levels of government) who would have to be involved, I don't find this plausible.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:07 am

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 31):
And you really think that, 16 months later, this would still be a secret kept? NO word leaking out? Given the number of people (at various levels of government) who would have to be involved, I don't find this plausible.

There would be only one level involved, a small special forces unit, and that's pretty much it.

Sorry but after 16 months, and the information we know about the details of the flight, nothing else seems as more likely. .
Only the paranoid survive
 
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enzo011
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:47 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 32):
There would be only one level involved, a small special forces unit, and that's pretty much it.

Sorry but after 16 months, and the information we know about the details of the flight, nothing else seems as more likely. .

In your scenario, why would the USA keep quiet about such a well known case? Surely they would announce to the world that they stopped a terror attack?
 
David L
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:01 am

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 33):
why would the USA keep quiet about such a well known case? Surely they would announce to the world that they stopped a terror attack?

   Not to mention the fact that it would have required Inmarsat's involvement to have been less than honest when they could have simply said nothing, as everyone would have expected, leaving us all clueless about the aircraft's whereabouts.
 
bond007
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:50 pm

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 32):
There would be only one level involved, a small special forces unit, and that's pretty much it.

..and their superiors, and their superior's superiors, and everyone else at the landing site, and Inmarsat...and ....yes, that's pretty much it  
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
bourbon
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:15 pm

What was Malaysians jump seat policy prior to 370? Perhaps one of the crew had a friend up in the cockpit that had malicious intent that either incapacitated both pilots or helped overtake the other crew member.

I am absolutely still baffled by the disappearance of MH 370.
 
kurtjeter
Posts: 142
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:51 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 35):
Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 32):There would be only one level involved, a small special forces unit, and that's pretty much it.
..and their superiors, and their superior's superiors, and everyone else at the landing site, and Inmarsat...and ....yes, that's pretty much it

Andl let's not forget a few dozen investigative journalists and their teams, who would dig, dig, dig, for this sad and tragic but inevitable award-winning story. All those people--superiors support staff--they would KNOW they are sitting on a story worth a lot. Human nature being what it is, it's not unlikely at least one would have cashed out for the riches, don't you think? Again, I just have a lot of trouble believing a plot of this magnitude could be kept secret for so long.
 
oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 30):
Well - this is usually what you would expect his friends and family to say AFTER he is dead. Before, though, he himself were rather clear about his views on religion according to all reports.

Yeah, you are right. Family and friends are not the most objective reporters.   
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:06 am

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 33):
In your scenario, why would the USA keep quiet about such a well known case?

Because it would not sit well with the families that the plane was blown up and gotten rid of, even with dead passengers inside.

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 33):
Surely they would announce to the world that they stopped a terror attack?

Not if the plane was hijacked to a country whose population do not see the US favorably (like one of the stan countries). Best keep a tight lid with high level officvials on both sides.

Quoting David L (Reply 34):
Not to mention the fact that it would have required Inmarsat's involvement to have been less than honest when they could have simply said nothing, as everyone would have expected

Not at all. Inmarsat gave an arc which the plane flew inside of. No precise location. So nothing to do with Inmarsat

Quoting David L (Reply 34):
leaving us all clueless about the aircraft's whereabouts.

Like I said, if that plane went into the Ocean or a sea, some pieces would have been discovered by now.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 35):
..and their superiors, and their superior's superiors, and everyone else at the landing site, and Inmarsat...and ....yes, that's pretty much it

Hogwash. You should know better than that 007.
Only the paranoid survive
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:43 am

Quoting bourbon (Reply 36):
What was Malaysians jump seat policy prior to 370? Perhaps one of the crew had a friend up in the cockpit that had malicious intent that either incapacitated both pilots or helped overtake the other crew member.

Regardless, people don't always follow paper policy in the real world.

We all know about the two blondes who were entertained by another MH Captain and FO Fariq on a 737 flight from HKT-KUL - from gate to gate...

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 37):
Again, I just have a lot of trouble believing a plot of this magnitude could be kept secret for so long.

If just one of the pilots did this, or one passenger, then there would be nothing to keep secret as only those responsible might have known.

Similarly, if this was an accident, nobody on the ground would have known so there is really nothing to keep secret.

The lack of leaks or new info suggests to me that either somebody on the plane was responsible and nobody on the ground knew anything or an accident happened   

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 39):
Like I said, if that plane went into the Ocean or a sea, some pieces would have been discovered by now.

Not really.

The current search area was not reached for quite some time after the accident.

Some bits that didn't sink straight away would have eventually sunk or drifted away by the time aircraft / ships reached the current area.

And if most of the floating bits drifted very far South they might never be found given the lack of eyes in that area...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:07 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 40):
We all know about the two blondes who were entertained by another MH Captain and FO Fariq on a 737 flight from HKT-KUL - from gate to gate...

I suppose it can't be completely ruled out (although I am perfectly comfortable doing so considering it was the FO's first unsupervised flight on type with a very senior PIC).

And the FI would have indicated if anyone authorized other than Z and Fariq were on the flight deck.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 39):
Because it would not sit well with the families that the plane was blown up and gotten rid of, even with dead passengers inside.

Accept the plane is in the SIO.   
 
kevin
Posts: 1036
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:24 am

How about this? The plane was shot down by Chinese military carrying out exercises in the South China Sea or whatnot. They put pressure on Malaysia to cover up the deed in order not to loose face and avoid escalation in the Soth China Sea conflict
 
rwessel
Posts: 2448
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:08 am

Quoting kevin (Reply 42):
The plane was shot down by Chinese military carrying out exercises in the South China Sea or whatnot. They put pressure on Malaysia to cover up the deed in order not to loose face and avoid escalation in the Soth China Sea conflict

Seriously? We're just making stuff up now?

The South China Sea is not very big and chock full of ship traffic. Somebody would have found some debris. Lots of debris. And you're assuming that a conspiracy of dozens or hundreds in the Malaysian government and military could actually keep something like that a secret. And then how did the Chinese convince Inmarsat to play along? If this was an accident during an exercise, I'm pretty sure their magic satcom spoofer would not have been ready to go on a few minute's notice.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:47 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 43):
Seriously? We're just making stuff up now?

That's largely been the case for the last 80 threads.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
SoJo
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:29 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 44):
That's largely been the case for the last 80 threads.

There ladies and gentlemen, is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Well said sir, well said
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
abba
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 38):
Yeah, you are right. Family and friends are not the most objective reporters

In particular not when the person has just passed away. This sad fact can make even the most asture atheist a saint of faith over neight. What family and friends say in such a situation says more about them than about the person not being among us...
 
David L
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 39):
Not at all. Inmarsat gave an arc which the plane flew inside of. No precise location. So nothing to do with Inmarsat

   I'm not sure what your point is. Without Inmarsat's contribution, we'd be looking at a huge area of the earth's surface within the 777's range of the last "known" position. Inmarsat narrowed it down to a tiny, tiny fraction of that area. I'm sure they're disappointed they couldn't narrow it down to the nearest hundred metres but I think "no precise location" is stretching it a bit.

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 39):
if that plane went into the Ocean or a sea, some pieces would have been discovered by now.

How much wreckage from AF447 was found floating on the surface more than a couple of weeks after the accident? It took two years to find the wreckage on the seabed even though they had a pretty good idea where it went in.
 
Tangowhisky
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:26 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:20 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 41):
Accept the plane is in the SIO

I am trying to keep an open mind based on what we know so far and what we can rule out. Yes it is possible that the plane crashed somewhere in the SIO but it is more a likely theory now (IMO) that the plane never crashed in to the ocean. This deliberate commandeering of this plane from its flight plan, turning off its transponders as it had reached Vitenam ATC (from handover of Malaysian ATC), the left turn and sudden climb to FL390 FOR 20 MINUTES are not indicative of someone who wants to crash a sophisticated long haul jetliner in to the SIO. To me, it was a well planned hijacking. The only mistake he made was not killing the power to the SATCOM. Hence Inmarsat was still receiving a ping.

He very likely depressurized the plane as soon as he went incognito to incapacitate the passengers and cabin crew as quickly as possible to limit any chances they can storm down the cockpit door.

Quoting David L (Reply 47):
I'm not sure what your point is. Without Inmarsat's contribution, we'd be looking at a huge area of the earth's surface within the 777's range of the last "known" position. Inmarsat narrowed it down to a tiny, tiny fraction of that area

I was replying to your reference that you said Inmarsat would have been involved in such a conspiracy. My point is not at all. They have no idea where the plane is. Just a vast region. And no, Inmarsat did not narrow it down to a tiny region.

Quoting David L (Reply 47):
How much wreckage from AF447 was found floating on the surface more than a couple of weeks after the accident? It took two years to find the wreckage on the seabed even though they had a pretty good idea where it went in.

The Brazilian navy spotted the debris 2 days after the crash of AF447 (June 3). We have no debris from MH370 for an aircraft that was equipped with 4 ELTs.

[Edited 2015-07-14 17:22:26]
Only the paranoid survive
 
oxymorph
Posts: 177
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:57 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 48):
the left turn and sudden climb to FL390 FOR 20 MINUTES

If you can produce factual evidence of this occurring, I would be much obliged. There were early reports of such a climb, and I DO believe it took place, but the proof of such maneuver escapes me.


[quote=Tangowhisky,reply=48]He very likely depressurized the plane as soon as he went incognito to incapacitate the passengers and cabin crew as quickly as possible to limit any chances they can storm down the cockpit door.

Agreed. However, you don't murder 238 pax and then land the plane somewhere if you are trying to bring down a despotic and loathed regime.

You and your cause wouldn't come away looking to good.

[Edited 2015-07-14 17:28:43]

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