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aerodog
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:35 pm

If the debris is from MH370, it would suggest to me the A/C contacted the water in a landing configuration and at a very low velocity. Others might argue the flaps were extended at high speed and then separated from the A/C.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:51 pm

Quoting aerodog (Reply 100):
If the debris is from MH370, it would suggest to me the A/C contacted the water in a landing configuration and at a very low velocity.

It would suggest something similar to me, possibly even a slow ditching attempt...

Quoting aerodog (Reply 100):
Others might argue the flaps were extended at high speed and then separated from the A/C.

Of course they will  

Other might argue that the part was from one of the other written off / wrecked 777s (MH17, Asiana, British, EgyptAir) and placed there by those in charge of the false flag operation!  
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questions
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:23 am

Is there a way to determine the aircraft part is from a specific aircraft? If so, how?
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:35 am

Quoting questions (Reply 104):
Is there a way to determine the aircraft part is from a specific aircraft? If so, how?

Yes. There seem to have been certain identifying plates that would have been visible on the outside of the piece, but individual components will have easily verifiable serial numbers. It looks like it will need to be disassembled to access these.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
lancelot07
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:20 am

Quoting questions (Reply 104):

Yes.
Serial numbers, measurements, analysis of materials used.
 
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Pohakuloa
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:01 am

So I have had what most would consider a conspiracy theory since May of 2014. It's considered conspiracy theory as there are holes in time gas that cannot yet be explained and likely would not be able to explained unless the wreckage is found and the reorders have survived enough to get any reasonable data from it. I have been worried of being flamed and tormented by those who I would call the "dummehs" or "dumdums" trolling the threads. As an enthusiast with no background or certifications in anything aviation related, I had been reading and mulling available information and with more (or less) information presented I kept my thoughts to myself as anything in my thoughts would not have helped eavesdropping investigators or "experts." With recent events covered on other thread(s), I figure it's time I share my thoughts from this tragedy/mystery. I also send a friendly apology to 777Jet as I said I would post this sooner.

So it is a very simple thought with little to no evidence. Quite frankly, my pure reasoning is speculative based on what I have observed of the pilot's possible thinking towards the Malaysia government, recent actions of the courts against someone he believed didn't deserve that treatment; his knowledge of radar systems in the area as well as the way they would and would not be operated at that time of day. All of these things could add up to the pilot choosing to do something unthinkable to most - to make a 777 temporarily disappear.

Yes, I said temporarily disappear with purpose. Though the end result now seems nefarious in nature, I really don't think the end result is one that the pilot had initially intended. No he wasn't initially scheduled for the flight (iirc), but it was a flight segment long enough with the potential for enough fuel (though with further information this is a gap in my thoughts as fuel starvation still would come in to play under even a good eastbound tailwind) to carry out his intention. I believe with the recent events before being put on the flight, it was an opportunity he probably played out in his mind in different situations on paper mathematically and in his home simulator (though not on his intended route).

I believe he purposely went dark at the atc hand off and turned back to toward KUL as a way to humiliate the Malay government and expose what he believed to be obvious to him deficiencies in their defense weaknesses in front of a global audience. Fly over Malay airspace and avoid known radar installations, around the western end of Indonesia make for Perth and request amnesty upon arrival.

Some will say he had no history of this type of behavior with so much to lose. Agreed, but it is never an issue in people who snap until it actually happens. Then suddenly all the warning signs are there. Somethings could have added up and triggered his willingness to carry out this intended plan. Whether he decided to do it pre-flight (very likely it was at least in his mind at that time) or at any point between then and disappearance is not for us to explain. We don't have to figure out how or why, only he needed to figure them out.

Passengers and crew - Again he likely would have figured out the most likely way to make the passengers and crew a non-factor. I agree that using cabin altitude carefully on a night flight would likely be the easiest way to get the passengers to be a non-factor. The crew, behind a locked cabin door gave him plenty of opportunity to leave them out of it. The only issue he would have is his co-pilot. Being a fill in pilot he could not of planned out who he got to work with on that night. I think this factor may have also contributed to him not being able to make it to WA.

Fuel - He knew the fuel would likely not get him all the way to Perth under power, but at the right altitude with a reasonable tailwind and fuel conservation efforts, he may be able to land safely RAT deployed... maybe... This is the biggest hole in my thinking because if everything did go right, it would still be a stretch, but still a possibility, as far fetched as it might seem.

My own thinking of where it went wrong was between loss of radar contact (secondary) and the Malacca Straight. Something happened which disrupted his intent. Whether it was the copilot's efforts to stop the unfolding situation or a bit of arrogance on the pilots behalf. Changes in altitude at lower less fuel efficient level and a moderate or normal climb would mean he would come far short from his destination.

When/if they find the aircraft, I don't think we will find many abnormalities in the flight itself. Sure there may be some telling things at key points that will confirm or bust the information gathered by third parties that will either show how good or how off their technologies to track really are, but if my "conspiracy theory" holds any merit at all, the voice recorder will be the most telling piece of information. If the pilot did act alone and did not intend to seriously harm anyone had he been successful, I believe he will have left a message on the recording stating why he did what he did. Before that there would be a whole lot of silence or complete silence. I am still torn on whether or not he would or did have contact with Malaysian authorities on the ground at any time.

Why I don't think the pilot intended to just fly it as far from anywhere and to as deep a part of the ocean as possible is the plane flying beyond fuel starvation and heading east. Why not just fly south after turning at the western end of Indonesia and point the plane straight down in deep ocean if his intent was to make the plane vanish forever. And, with recent debris found being highly likely from the missing aircraft washing up on Reunion, it is also a possibility that impact with the ocean was under pilot control. At that point in time, he may not have wanted to save himself, but in the event someone in back survived this entire ordeal, it may give them a slim yet fighting chance for survival.

Do I think the pilot was a hero? In my own eyes, no I do not. I think he was human. A man. A man who was tipped over the edge in his own mind at a point that many unlikely things happened to align and create opportunity. I am sorry that it was at the cost of the people on board this fateful flight. I cannot fathom the depths of sorrow that the families of those on board have had to endure because of the loss as well as the way it had been handled by the authorities in charge of the situation. In a way, the pilot indeed would have succeeded in not only showing the deficiencies in the areas defenses, but also the severe lack of so many things within the Malay government.

Finally, I want to say that we can never predict the actions of most humans, especially those with something to hide. To say it is not likely, though not false, still leaves us with those one in a hundred billion chances to happen. No matter how probable, still things are possible. I leave with this line...

When dealing with a singular human and their thoughts, everyone else is the last to know... Every time.

Respectfully,
Pohakuloa
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lancelot07
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:40 am

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 105):

Well yes, but then the public as a whole on this world does not care about malaysian air defence, and he could have taken a flight to Perth as a passenger.
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:07 pm

I hope this flaperon finding will prove to be a piece from the jet... at least that would bring some closure to the families (albeit sadly)... and put an end to the "the SIO theory is actually a coverup conspiracy", "it must have exploded when it disappeared" theory, "they deliberately not look further in SCS to coverup" theory, "it must have landed elsewhere and everyone taken hostage/killed" theory, etc, etc, etc...
Oh hang on... I may be too hopeful here...  
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 107):
I hope this flaperon finding will prove to be a piece from the jet... at least that would bring some closure to the families (albeit sadly)... and put an end to the "the SIO theory is actually a coverup conspiracy", "it must have exploded when it disappeared" theory, "they deliberately not look further in SCS to coverup" theory, "it must have landed elsewhere and everyone taken hostage/killed" theory, etc, etc, etc...
Oh hang on... I may be too hopeful here...  

Remind me again just who it was that 'floated' Inmarsat integrity testing spoofing, 2 Indonesian guys told me, the Israelis, Russians and Chinese all capable of these BFO spoofs etc???

Who said this garbage? Wait, it was you. Under the guise of 'for the greater good and aviation safety'.

Ah, the irony. Hilarious indeed.
 
747megatop
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:56 pm

Question folks - If ANY aircraft had lost a part (big or small) in flight; then would there be a database of such incidents against which a comparison can be made when other aircraft parts are found to determine/rule out the aircraft the part came from? I recollect that in the CDG concorde accident they tied a piece of metal back to a Continental aircraft (don't recollect how they did that though).
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 108):
Who said this garbage? Wait, it was you. Under the guise of 'for the greater good and aviation safety'.

Sorry, where in that article did I say I believe the jet was somewhere else and not in the Indian ocean? I am sorry that you failed to comprehend that article's main point was not where MH370 went but at the physical vulnerability of satcom control boxes. I pity your desire to continue to attack others.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
TXspotter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 109):
Question folks - If ANY aircraft had lost a part (big or small) in flight; then would there be a database of such incidents against which a comparison can be made when other aircraft parts are found to determine/rule out the aircraft the part came from?

Yes.
If you find a data plate of part assembly (ie flaperon), with a PART NUMBER (PN) and SERIAL NUMBER (SN) then you can track it. Simply finding a piece of a flaperon with "BB6XX" doesn't indicate which exact MSN the part came from. Therefore you could have some conspiracy theorist say the part was placed there on purpose - leaving no documented evidence to disprove him.

However, a data plate will allow accurate tracking of the part because it is documented every time the part is taken off the plane, repaired, and put back onto the aircraft. There is a paper trail that follows the parts with manufacture data plate.

The problem with the flaperon found (from what I can tell) is that the data plate has fallen off (very common) therefore the part found has just a leading edge panel with a "marking" on the inside "BB604?" (cant remember what was reported). See pictures below of where data plate should be on a working flaperon assembly.

Here is a picture of a data plate for a flaperon assembly that I took. the assembly makes up many subcomponent parts including the leading edge surfaces.






The only thing that can be 100% true is the part found was a B777 flaperon. Process of elimination tells us it is from MH370
 
David L
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 110):
I am sorry that you failed to comprehend that article's main point was not where MH370 went but at the physical vulnerability of satcom control boxes.

   I believe, at the time, we discussed the importance of reading your article in its entirety. Clearly, several months later, some "conveniently" continue to ignore the latter part.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 108):

Why don't you just buy a rag doll, call it mandala499, and spend your life sticking pins into it, instead of boring us all by repeatedly trolling the same tiresome and misplaced allegations.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
therealswede
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 108):

It doesnt matter how much you ever try dishonoring Mandala, your input will never have the slightest value compared to Mandala´s input.
You're just making a fool of yourself and you simply don't realize it. Get a grip.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:02 am

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 105):
So I have had what most would consider a conspiracy theory since May of 2014. It's considered conspiracy theory as there are holes in time gas that cannot yet be explained and likely would not be able to explained unless the wreckage is found and the reorders have survived enough to get any reasonable data from it. I have been worried of being flamed and tormented by those who I would call the "dummehs" or "dumdums" trolling the threads.

I would not call your theory a conspiracy theory. All the theories have some holes / gaps - some just have more / fewer than others. IMHO your theory is more probable than many other theories such as the data spoofing / sophisticated operation theories etc.

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 105):
I also send a friendly apology to 777Jet as I said I would post this sooner.

No need to apologize for anything, mate. I'm glad you finally shared your theory. I have been waiting to read it and it was well worth the wait!

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 105):
All of these things could add up to the pilot choosing to do something unthinkable to most - to make a 777 temporarily disappear.Yes, I said temporarily disappear with purpose. Though the end result now seems nefarious in nature, I really don't think the end result is one that the pilot had initially intended.

I like that suggestion. In fact, I have long entertained a similar idea about wanting to make the plane temporarily disappear. I thought that perhaps some kind of 'negotiation' was to take place, perhaps relating to Anwar, and that the negotiation failed and rather than return home to face the punishment Z took option B. All I'm saying is that I like the idea about making the plane disappear temporarily and I agree that the following could be possible: "I really don't think the end result is one that the pilot had initially intended".

Quoting Pohakuloa (Reply 105):
I think he was human. A man. A man who was tipped over the edge in his own mind at a point that many unlikely things happened to align and create opportunity.

Well said.

Thank you again for sharing your theory.

All the best!

[Edited 2015-07-30 17:08:52]
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mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:19 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 115):
All the theories have some holes / gaps - some just have more / fewer than others. IMHO your theory is more probable than many other theories such as the data spoofing / sophisticated operation theories etc.

Various accident theories can be put forward to match the "remaining airborne until fuel ran out", the "going dark and turn towards Penang", even why it overflew Penang to the northwest.. the dead satcom, missing flight data string after satcom relogon, etc... all can be explained by the accident theories... but.... The turn left past Sumatra is the one the accident theorists haven't tried to explain. The "pilot did it theory" can explain everything except the dead satcom and why it was switched on (as they said it was deliberate) as it contravenes the "go-dark" mindset... For someone to switch it back on "to make it look like an accident", in my mind, leads this mystery towards someone else pulling this off or the pilot doing it not on his own accord and planning (ie: there are other co-conspirators somewhere)...
Meanwhile... someone's obsessed with trying to put me as someone who advocated a theory that the aircraft went elsewhere? (An IRS realign while airborne could have made the AES send erroneous doppler pre-correction that made it look like it went south instead of north, but heck, that one's a longshot too at best despite best efforts to test it out). We've gone elsewhere in other places while waiting for evidence (and hoping that it did go down in SIO and not elsewhere) but we're stuck with dealing with someone's obsessions...
Data spoofing? For this flight? Yes it's possible... but heck, that's an even longer shot than the doppler pre-correction error due to IRS realign whilst airborne... But then... someone still thinks I'm advocating it! Every fool to himself I guess...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
abba
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:43 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 99):
Even if this turns out to be from 9M-MRO, IMHO it won't do much if anything at all to assist with the current search.

It certainly does. There will be a lot of life on the debris from the ocean that will tell a rather precise story about its whereabouts.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:37 am

Quoting abba (Reply 117):
There will be a lot of life on the debris from the ocean that will tell a rather precise story about its whereabouts.

Not so sure about that - it has a long voyage across the ocean behind it and will have acquired many forms of life. I guess the best that can be expected ist that it confirms or at least does not contradict the general search area.

But some theories are eliminated - no northern arc, e.g.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:25 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 116):
Meanwhile... someone's obsessed with trying to put me as someone who advocated a theory that the aircraft went elsewhere?

I wonder who that could be?  
Quoting abba (Reply 117):
There will be a lot of life on the debris from the ocean that will tell a rather precise story about its whereabouts.

"a lot" of life that tells "a rather precise story" - perhaps in your dreams, mate LOL.

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 118):
Not so sure about that - it has a long voyage across the ocean behind it and will have acquired many forms of life. I guess the best that can be expected ist that it confirms or at least does not contradict the general search area.But some theories are eliminated - no northern arc, e.g.

  
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WarrenPlatts
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 119):
Quoting abba (Reply 117):There will be a lot of life on the debris from the ocean that will tell a rather precise story about its whereabouts.


"a lot" of life that tells "a rather precise story" - perhaps in your dreams, mate LOL.

There potentially could be very useful information. For example, if the barnacles turned out to be Lepas australis rather than Lepas anatifera, that would indicate that the part was colonized down close to the Roaring 40's because the L. australis is a cold water species that spawns in the Antarctic circumpolar current. L. anatifera spawns in warmer water, so depending on the age of the barnacles, that also could give useful information. If the barnacles are much younger than 17 months, that would also indicate that the crash happened in cold water, and then the part drifted north into warmer waters before it was colonized; if the barnacles are a full 17 months old, then that would indicate a crash in warmer waters at the northern end of the search area. Then a bloke on the other thread said that while barnacle species have wide geographic distributions due to their pelagic lifestyle, they also tend to be infected by various viruses that have much smaller distributions, that could conceivably further constrain the search area.
 
oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 119):
Meanwhile... someone's obsessed with trying to put me as someone who advocated a theory that the aircraft went elsewhere?

I wonder who that could be?  

I would have had much less a problem with Mandala's spoof fiction if that same article had not led off with THIS:

"My viewpoint on MH370 is simple: if the aircraft went south, I don’t buy the view that this was a hijack or other forms of hostile takeover. The theory relies too much on damning the Captain who was a known sympathizer of Malaysia’s opposition. The circumstantial evidence were just too convenient. The so-called satcom logon and ping at 1825, in my opinion, invalidates this theory. There is little sense for someone to switch off the satcom and then switch it back on, if someone wants to disappear into the middle of the ocean. This was where I left MH370 last year".

Circumstantial evidence TOO convenient??

Good idea there. Let's just dismiss the circumstantial because it's too convenient. Pleeease.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 121):
Circumstantial evidence TOO convenient??

too convenient, but not at all convincing.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 116):
The turn left past Sumatra is the one the accident theorists haven't tried to explain.

Some accident theorists have theorized they were trying to set up another attempted emergency landing, this time at Banda Aceh. http://www.duncansteel.com/archives/1874
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 122):
Quoting oxymorph (Reply 121):Circumstantial evidence TOO convenient??

too convenient, but not at all convincing.

Yet it is ironic how such circumstantial evidence, Facebook posts in particular, have been used to get criminal convictions      

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 120):
that could conceivably further constrain the search area.

I really hope that you and others are correct and that is indeed what happens.

BTW - Welcome back! Your valuable insights have been missed by some of us  
Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 120):
down close to the Roaring 40's
Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 120):
the crash happened in cold water
Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 120):
crash in warmer waters at the northern end of the search area

That is still far from telling:

Quoting abba (Reply 117):
a rather precise story about its whereabouts.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:43 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 124):
Yet it is ironic how such circumstantial evidence, Facebook posts in particular, have been used to get criminal convictions      

But it's hardly just this. It's that the plane was obviously diverted by someone knowledgable about the t7 systems and avionics, waypoints, piloting skill, radar, Indo airspace etc...

The choice is really a very simple one. You either believe this was some unimaginable accident (LMAO...US intel now confirming someone in their estimation was at least flying the plane via waypoints to the FMT), OR that someone with all this knowledge about the t7 systems, hand off timing, regional FIR's and piloting skill was lurking among the pax or stowed away. Again, LMAO.

So we are left with two. Mr. Zaharie or Mr. Hamid.

Gee, I wonder.

What's truly sad is that this has never really been some 'mystery'. Dude tried to make the plane disappear and bring down the govt.

Pretty elementary at the end of the day. And guess what, he may succeed just yet.



  
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:04 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 125):
Dude tried to make the plane disappear and bring down the govt.

That government is doing its best to bring down itself  
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oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:12 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 126):
That government is doing its best to bring down itself  

Truer words have never been spoken. 370 will be the icing. That country will be in the midst of a true political maelstrom in the coming months.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:22 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 125):
It's that the plane was obviously diverted by someone knowledgable about the t7 systems and avionics, waypoints, piloting skill, radar, Indo airspace etc...

You'll find little disagreement with this among people who are open to the possibility of a major technical malfunction.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 125):
So we are left with two. Mr. Zaharie or Mr. Hamid.

Sure, there's not much controversy about that.

The only question is whether one or both of the cockpit crew were bloodthirsty mass murderers hell-bent on pulling off the disappearing act of the century, or simply trying their utmost (and ultimately failing) to bring all souls aboard back to safety. I think by now we all know where you stand on this question.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 125):
Pretty elementary at the end of the day.

If it were that elementary, we would no longer be searching for the wreckage, and this story would no longer be in the headlines around the world.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:29 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 127):
370 will be the icing.

Hopefully it will shortly be confirmed that the recently found flaperon is indeed from 9M-MRO.

And, could it be possible that the damage to the flaperon might be consistent with the flaperon being pulled backwards off of the wing upon contact with the water during a slow controlled ditching attempt by somebody who knew their stuff???

Regardless, what I really hope is that the search will go on, and that any new find will give the investigators the 'fuel' they need to keep working on the search and making progress...
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mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:45 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 123):
Some accident theorists have theorized they were trying to set up another attempted emergency landing, this time at Banda Aceh. http://www.duncansteel.com/archives/1874

Which is relatively new. I spoke to one of those participating in that article just a few days before that article (discussing non-SIO possibilities, despite all of us believing it's in the SIO).

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 121):
I would have had much less a problem with Mandala's spoof fiction if that same article had not led off with THIS:

How is that relevant to my belief where the airplane is?   Did I ever attack you in contravention to the rules here in A.net?

Despite believing that the evidence is "too convenient", I do work with others on how to build up a plausible "pilot did it" scenario. You are free to believe in it's simplicity, but don't attack others who disagree please. This place has its rules.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 127):
Truer words have never been spoken. 370 will be the icing. That country will be in the midst of a true political maelstrom in the coming months.

MH370 as icing will be the government's incompetence in dealing with it... It won't have anything to do with Zaharie's views of the government. Anyone who knows how coverups are done here (which Zaharie is certainly one), would know such an attempt without having his views known during his actions, would simply be swept under the carpet, rendering his act futile. Zaharie wanting to bring down the government without the ability for an effective cover up would be nowhere near to this scenario (apart from going dark and turning back... but not to go to oblivion... unless he had cold feet and decided to kill the others to save his own honour)).
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:11 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 131):
Despite believing that the evidence is "too convenient", I do work with others on how to build up a plausible "pilot did it" scenario. You are free to believe in it's simplicity, but don't attack others who disagree please. This place has its rules.

So wait, an honest question. Do you still believe the evidence is 'too convenient'? Or has your position softened slightly?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 131):
Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 123):Some accident theorists have theorized they were trying to set up another attempted emergency landing, this time at Banda Aceh. http://www.duncansteel.com/archives/1874

Which is relatively new.

I remember the idea that attempting an emergency landing at Banda Ache, after possible missed / failed emergency landing attempts elsewhere along the flight path, was suggested pretty early on in the MH370 threads.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 131):
(apart from going dark and turning back... but not to go to oblivion... unless he had cold feet and decided to kill the others to save his own honour)).

Regarding his own honour - Saving face is very important in that part of the world. Just saying...

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 131):
Quoting oxymorph (Reply 130):

I would love to moderate a debate on this topic between the both of you.

Let's organise it, shall we?

But there would need to be ground rules ie: No personal attacks. Okay, oxymorph?  

I would dedicate a full day for this.

Seriously, I hope the who said what in the past nonsense stops and scenarios can continue to develop (except for the conspiracy / sophisticated operation theories)  
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WingedMigrator
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:30 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 130):
an INTERNAL US intel assessment

The assessment that concluded that the airplane was deliberately steered off course did not, to my knowledge, state that there was a nefarious perpetrator on board. It simply concluded that the airplane was deliberately steered off course, a fact that nobody here disagrees with.

So the US intel assessment (at least to the extent that details were leaked to the press) does not support your theory as strongly as you wish it did.
 
oxymorph
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:44 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 134):
The assessment that concluded that the airplane was deliberately steered off course did not, to my knowledge, state that there was a nefarious perpetrator on board. It simply concluded that the airplane was deliberately steered off course, a fact that nobody here disagrees with.

It was steered 'deliberately' off course, BY WAYPOINTS PROGRAMMED INTO THE FMC. It was determined that the flight path and entry of these SPECIFIC waypoints were not compatible with any non-deliberate actions. It was determined that this was done by 'someone' in the cockpit.

The implication of the 'assessment' is clear. If you care to engage in semantics, find someone else.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:55 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 135):
It was determined that the flight path and entry of these SPECIFIC waypoints were not compatible with any non-deliberate actions. It was determined that this was done by 'someone' in the cockpit.

   you're preaching energetically to the choir

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 135):
The implication of the 'assessment' is clear.

Implications? So now we have to read between the lines of leaks to the press to understand how US intelligence agencies support your position?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:03 am

I'd love to hear updated versions of what gzm and YoungMans thinks happened to MH370 if the flaperon turns out to be from 9M-MRO.
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mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:46 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 132):
So wait, an honest question. Do you still believe the evidence is 'too convenient'? Or has your position softened slightly?

My position remains the same, in that "the pilot did it" is possible. There is at this present time, nothing that makes that theory as "conclusive" and "beyond reasonable doubt" as some have tried to assert. Both the accident theory and "pilot did it", each in whatever form there is, the evidence either way is still, with gaping holes to make it so bloody far out from "beyond reasonable doubt"...

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 135):
It was steered 'deliberately' off course, BY WAYPOINTS PROGRAMMED INTO THE FMC. It was determined that the flight path and entry of these SPECIFIC waypoints were not compatible with any non-deliberate actions. It was determined that this was done by 'someone' in the cockpit.

This, is not conclusive. Sorry. With the Flight Data string disappearing from the Satcom handshake, it's even possible that the aircraft have had an FMC reset, and other problems which may require even an IRS realign in the air... This can explain why the aircraft went north west after PEN in a straight line... and in the end, they gave up and tried to go somewhere (heck, they may even tried to go back to PEN) and ended up misguided... Maybe someone forgot to add the swing cards to the standby compass... :P Unlikely for them to have screwed up that badly though, but it could explain the NW straight line then a turn... which inadvertenly put them to fly into oblivion.
The "pilot did it" theories rely on the aircraft being fully functional and therefore "no other explanations for the turns where it happened other than being deliberate"...
This probably explain why those who advocate this theory, find the accident theory utterly irritating.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:02 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 137):

I'd love to hear updated versions of what gzm and YoungMans thinks happened to MH370 if the flaperon turns out to be from 9M-MRO.

I’m following with keen interest WarrenPlatts’ comments and information on the barnacles.
Careful studies on those can definitely provide useful information, like where exactly they may have latched onto the drifting part. And I sure hope the results from such studies will be made publicly available.

Considering the size of the washed-up component, it is surprising (to me anyway) that an item that big could not have been detected by satellite imagery. After all, how often do we hear it that they can even read number plates on cars. Then again, someone on the other thread reckons that it would not have been possible to see the floating part by satellite.

And yet, the flaperon would have floated horizontally (wouldn’t it?) so it would have provided a substantial area for detection. It would have stayed on the surface, after impact, or would have popped back up fairly soon after.
(It probably would not have gone down all the way because it would have been crushed and not come back.)
By the time the search in the general area started in earnest, the flaperon could not have travelled too far.
This leads one to ask if the satellite images were checked and inspected thoroughly enough.

Or else, could it be that, yes, flight MH370 did tragically end in the Indian Ocean but it happened in a substantially different area? Other then where they are looking for it now or where it is generally assumed to be; hence that area was not covered by satellite. So there are still solid questions at this stage.

On a different note ....
Yes, this single find is a strong indicator that MH370 ended in the Indian Ocean, if it is confirmed that the part they found is off 9M-MRO; as we all expect it will be.
But that still doesn’t make us any the wiser why and how the flight ended there or, indeed, where excatly.
On the other hand, is it really true that careful inspection of the satellite imagery would not and could not have shown a component that size?
 
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enzo011
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:16 am

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 135):
It was steered 'deliberately' off course, BY WAYPOINTS PROGRAMMED INTO THE FMC. It was determined that the flight path and entry of these SPECIFIC waypoints were not compatible with any non-deliberate actions. It was determined that this was done by 'someone' in the cockpit.

The implication of the 'assessment' is clear. If you care to engage in semantics, find someone else.

I don't think there are many people that think the aircraft changed direction on its own accord. It will be obvious that someone steered the aircraft off its course. What we are hoping to find out is why this was done and if there is anything to learn from it. If it is just someone intent on killing people because he has some political views it doesn't help us at all, which would be even more tragic than this currently is. No new safety mechanisms could then be implemented and those that lost their lives in this accident didn't lose it in vain.

At least with the Germanwings accident we can have a discussion about mental health and pilots. With this incident we will have nothing but a few posters shouting loud and proud how smart they were and everyone else were idiots.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 129):
And, could it be possible that the damage to the flaperon might be consistent with the flaperon being pulled backwards off of the wing upon contact with the water during a slow controlled ditching attempt by somebody who knew their stuff???

Only those with a clear scenario in their minds would want this to be proven by the piece of evidence. Most on here I believe (hope?) would just like to find out what happened and why and really doesn't care if they are proven right or wrong on these threads.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:19 am

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 141):
With this incident we will have nothing but a few posters shouting loud and proud how smart they were and everyone else were idiots.

Sounds just like what happened with the Air France 447 incident.

Heck, we still get reminded in these threads who the smart people who got that one correct were!

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 141):
Most on here I believe (hope?) would just like to find out what happened and why and really doesn't care if they are proven right or wrong on these threads.

I don't really care what is proven by any wreckage; I just hope that something, anything, can be learned.

The sooner that this mystery gets solved the better, especially for the family and friends of those that 9M-MRO was carrying.

This has gone on for far too long and, moreover, something like a state of the art plane carrying hundreds of people should never have been able to just vanish like this. That is what is unacceptable.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 141):
What we are hoping to find out is why this was done and if there is anything to learn from it. If it is just someone intent on killing people because he has some political views it doesn't help us at all, which would be even more tragic than this currently is. No new safety mechanisms could then be implemented and those that lost their lives in this accident didn't lose it in vain.

Not really.

If a pilot did this and managed to escape detection as a result of switching off various systems that can at least be looked in to. However, some pilots might have issues with changes to systems if it meant that they did not have the ability to switch the systems off in certain circumstances. Nonetheless, this can still be looked in to. Changes could be made.

Also, improved tracking can also be looked into so the whereabouts of aircraft are more frequently known. In fact, increased tracking intervals have already been announced by some countries, including Australia & Indonesia, in the aftermath of MH370.

It might be very difficult to stop a pilot from doing something bad, but if it turns out that MH370 vanished because a pilot was able to easily make the plane go silent then that can at least be looked in to in order to help prevent another plane full of people from vanishing for so long...
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747megatop
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:36 pm

A fascinating insight into the search for AF 447 wreckage -

http://www.metsci.com/Portals/0/Sear...%20Air%20France%20Flight%20447.pdf


This will probably give some insight into how the MH 370 underwater search is being planned and approached.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 137):
I'd love to hear updated versions of what gzm and YoungMans thinks happened to MH370 if the flaperon turns out to be from 9M-MRO.

Unfortunately, even identifying the flaperon as coming from MH370 won't say a lot about the accident, except maybe at what attitude it hit the water and perhaps the speed.

The who, why and how will still be a mystery until the plane is found.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 138):
My position remains the same, in that "the pilot did it" is possible. There is at this present time, nothing that makes that theory as "conclusive" and "beyond reasonable doubt" as some have tried to assert. Both the accident theory and "pilot did it", each in whatever form there is, the evidence either way is still, with gaping holes to make it so bloody far out from "beyond reasonable doubt"...

There are no absolutes in this, with the exception of knowing the plane went down in the Indian Ocean, if the flaperon is identified as coming from MH370. Odds are, a pilot controlled the plane throughout its flight, I think most likely with the flight control systems but until the plane is found, we just won't know for sure.

A very small possibility is still a possibility and long shots sometimes do pay off. I respect anybody who understands the difference between possible, plausible and definite.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 140):
I don't think there are many people that think the aircraft changed direction on its own accord. It will be obvious that someone steered the aircraft off its course. What we are hoping to find out is why this was done and if there is anything to learn from it.

To me, if it was pilot controlled, the how is mostly irrelevant. Whether it was using the flight control systems or hand flying, it would still have been under the direct control of the pilot...or pilots.

I suspect there are other identifiers more subtle than the information plate, to identify the piece coming from a Malaysian airliner. The paint itself may very well have some characteristics unique to Malaysian or to a specific batch of paint.

I have no doubts that the source of the flaperon will be 100% proven with forensic investigation having come from MH 370.

I believe the absolutely most important thing about finding this piece is it will force the search to keep going, perhaps much longer than it otherwise might have.
What the...?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 143):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 137):I'd love to hear updated versions of what gzm and YoungMans thinks happened to MH370 if the flaperon turns out to be from 9M-MRO.

Unfortunately, even identifying the flaperon as coming from MH370 won't say a lot about the accident, except maybe at what attitude it hit the water and perhaps the speed.

It will at least hopefully be enough for some to now believe that the plane did end up in the Indian Ocean somewhere and it would therefore follow that the data was not spoofed / there was no false flag operation / and the plane is not in a hanger somewhere  
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enilria
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:35 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 144):
It will at least hopefully be enough for some to now believe that the plane did end up in the Indian Ocean somewhere and it would therefore follow that the data was not spoofed / there was no false flag operation / and the plane is not in a hanger somewhere

We only know one additional thing; that the plane definitely crashed.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:20 pm

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 135):
It was steered 'deliberately' off course, BY WAYPOINTS PROGRAMMED INTO THE FMC.

Source?

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 130):
Given all that we know (including an INTERNAL US intel assessment)

Have you read it? At least one person on here has and it doesn't state unequivocally what you're asserting. It's an "assessment", a word which has a precise meaning in intel which is not the same as the "irrefutable conclusion" you're asserting.

Quoting oxymorph (Reply 121):
Circumstantial evidence TOO convenient??

Pretty much every case of wrongful conviction (resulting in many innocent people executed) has resulted from police tunnel vision based on initial circumstantial evidence.

I can't be bothered rehashing it again (and having my credentials, intelligence and legal experience called into question), but almost all of the stuff you cite as circumstantial evidence is inadmissible as circumstantial evidence in a court of law. If you want to learn why, visit some of the earlier threads where I laid out the evidentiary principles and case law in detail (which, of course got me called a nit-picking lawyer by someone who was finally banned after driving almost every knowledgeable professional off this thread).

Happily, we're able to advance the debate in an open-minded fashion in other fora.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:36 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 144):
It will at least hopefully be enough for some to now believe that the plane did end up in the Indian Ocean somewhere and it would therefore follow that the data was not spoofed / there was no false flag operation / and the plane is not in a hanger somewhere

Personally, I really don't care about outrageous and far fetched flights of fancy, who conjures them up or why. Of the possible answers, I tend to lean towards the ones most probable, but acknowledge and accept facts whether or not they agree with any speculation I may have offered.

What the flaperon with give us is pretty much one fact; that the plane crashed into the Indian Ocean. Analysis will undoubtedly offer some plausible answers to the attitude, speed and configuration of the plane as it entered the water. Qualified as the examiners of the flaperon undoubtedly will be, they will more than likely express their interpretations of the evidence given up by the flaperon, as possible, not definite answers to some questions being asked.

Regardless that the one fact derived from finding the flaperon, (again, that the plane crashed into the Indian ocean), conspiracy theories about secret landings, the flaperon being planted....along with luggage, the aircraft being hijacked by terrorists as the ultimate 9/11 style act, or it was whisked away by unicorns riding moonbeams, will continue unabated, and maybe even get more creative.

That's fine by me, free speech and such. I can choose not to deal with those. Scattered through that, if my mind can survive the white noise to find them, there are the ideas, information and questions from thoughtful, intelligent people ultimately seeking facts and presenting plausible possibilities together with well reasoned explanations as to how the ideas came to be.

On a slightly different note, I was very worried that the search would be pared back to the point of uselessness. Now, I believe that finding the flaperon will keep the search going until MH370 is found.

One thing about the search that bothers me, (and maybe I'm wrong about this), is that the bill is being footed primarily by Australia and Malaysia. This tragedy affects countries around the world, and if more of these countries coughed up some dough, there would not be any reason not to search until it's found.
What the...?
 
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Dalavia
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:22 pm

Wrong thread. Sorry.

[Edited 2015-08-02 05:23:51]
 
abba
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 119):
"a lot" of life that tells "a rather precise story" - perhaps in your dreams, mate LOL.

Combined with knowledge of currents and wind during the period they can get a pretty good idea. Barnacles is only one. There are many more such indicators. I am quoting accident experts from Denmark who unfortunately only have been quoted in Danish media.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 132):
Regarding his own honour - Saving face is very important in that part of the world. Just saying..

Certainly, culture explains it all!
Have we seen such theories before!? Cultures let people act without sense and beyond rationality because such qualities belong "to us" - eh? I guess you have next to no knowledge of the huge differences in Asian cultures and their complexities. What you write above is nothing but plain stupid and says more about you than anything else.

Now this again confirms that many of the people - apparently you inclusive - who support "the pilot did it theory" does so based on a strong faith in cultural supremacy of the withe man - from the West that is.  
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing KUL-PEK Part 81

Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:30 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 146):
Personally, I really don't care about outrageous and far fetched flights of fancy, who conjures them up or why.

You might not care what gets posted in here, but the moderators rightly do.

In case you forgot, this message appears at the beginning of each new MH370 thread:

Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):
SOME IMPORTANT REMINDERS FOR ALL OUR MEMBERS TO CONSIDER BEFORE POSTING IN THIS THREAD:

**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those on board MH370; please keep science fiction theories and content related to past / current movies or possible future movie rights out of these threads. ****

Some of the theories being discussed border on the above. I hope this find puts them to rest.

Quoting abba (Reply 148):
Combined with knowledge of currents and wind during the period they can get a pretty good idea. Barnacles is only one. There are many more such indicators. I am quoting accident experts from Denmark who unfortunately only have been quoted in Danish media.

I hope you are correct. I'll take your word for it about the article  
Quoting abba (Reply 148):
I guess you have next to no knowledge of the huge differences in Asian cultures and their complexities.

I guess I did not learn anything during the several years I spent in SE Asia, including Malaysia.


You know me so well you know everything about me.

Quoting abba (Reply 148):
What you write above is nothing but plain stupid and says more about you than anything else. Now this again confirms that many of the people - apparently you inclusive - who support "the pilot did it theory" does so based on a strong faith in cultural supremacy of the withe man - from the West that is.

Actually, what you just wrote tells a lot about you and your lack of intelligence as well as your own cultural prejudice.

Funny how you have a go at me yet my comment about 'face' was in reply to the following comment about 'honour' - the two concepts do have similarities but what do I know...

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 130):
unless he had cold feet and decided to kill the others to save his own honour)).

What did you mean my honour, Mandala?

I interpreted your "to save his own honour" comment as having a similar meaning to "saving face"...

But how dare I mention the term "saving face"!

I am a very bad person for even mentioning that according to the selective quote / troll brigade  
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