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nickflightx
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Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:57 pm

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/...campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix

"Emirates CEO Tim Clark makes it clear that he finds Delta to be the most problematic of the big three U.S. carriers.

Clark doesn’t like American or United much either, but he singled out Delta during his talk Tuesday at the National Press Club."

Well more drama...
 
billreid
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:23 pm

The funny thing is he is right on many counts.
Its the stove calling the kettle black.

IF DL, AA, and UA chose to be the worlds best airlines then the argument would be hollow. But the US3 have made a clear decision "We live in a Walmart world, and Americans don't appreciate quality and won"t pay for it. So lets deliver to them what they want. Garbage!"
The prices keep increasing, with no added value at all for the higher fares.
Service on board is intentionally terrible. no food, old seats/planes, poor on-time performance, excessive lost baggage.
And this doesn't include the yearly disasters with loss of Unaccompanied minors and pets.

The thing is the US3 could be the best airlines in the word. But they chose not to be.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 1):
IF DL, AA, and UA chose to be the worlds best airlines then the argument would be hollow. But the US3 have made a clear decision "We live in a Walmart world, and Americans don't appreciate quality and won"t pay for it. So lets deliver to them what they want. Garbage!"
The prices keep increasing, with no added value at all for the higher fares.
Service on board is intentionally terrible. no food, old seats/planes, poor on-time performance, excessive lost baggage.
And this doesn't include the yearly disasters with loss of Unaccompanied minors and pets.

Sorry, this is just the dumbest argument, and I'm totally pro open skies. If the ME3 had to operate in the same environment with the same history of the US3 they'd evaporate in the blink of an eye. On the other hand, if the ME3 were getting US3 yields on the ME3 cost base, they'd be screaming about their huge profits from a mountaintop, not releasing squirrely PRs how they were "profitable no further questions thx" (at least 2 of the ME3).
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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thekorean
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:38 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 1):

Considering the obstacles they have compared to ME3 or even East Asia airlines, no they couldn't.

Ol Timmy should focus on EK and take his own damn advice.

He does understand US3 has to make as much money as possible for their investors? They aren't owned by some despots.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 1):
Americans don't appreciate quality and won"t pay for it. So lets deliver to them what they want.

What would you suggest they --public corporations accountable solely to their private investors-- do?

Deliver a product that their basic market (in your own words) "won't pay for?"
Explain to me how, in their market, that makes sense please.


Quoting billreid (Reply 1):
with no added value at all for the higher fares

Plot US fares and US GDP together, and you'll see a remarkably similar correlation. Just saying.


Quoting billreid (Reply 1):
no food

There's plenty of food, you just have to choose to pay for it.


Quoting billreid (Reply 1):
old seats

All of the US majors have/will completely refresh their seating within the last 2-3 years.


Quoting billreid (Reply 1):
planes

What would you suggest they --public corporations accountable solely to their private investors-- do?

Devote capital to replacing a depreciating asset before an accumulation of opportunity costs makes it a necessary transaction?
Explain to me how, in their market, that makes sense please.


Quoting billreid (Reply 1):
excessive lost baggage

 
US airlines last year [2014] mishandled 21.8 million bags, or 6.96 per 1,000 passengers, according to SITA, an aviation communications and technology company that tracks baggage performance each year. That's well less than half the rate in 2007, when airlines world-wide mishandled 46.9 million bags, or 18.88 per 1,000 passengers, SITA said.
Hmm, wanna try that one again?


Quoting billreid (Reply 1):
And this doesn't include the yearly disasters with loss of Unaccompanied minors and pets.

I'll take that over, say, fatal plane crashes. Last time one occurred to a US mainline aircraft: 14yrs ago.

[Edited 2015-07-04 10:47:53]
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
upwardfacing
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:54 pm

Do we need another one of these threads?

Is this a perverse way to celebrate US Independence Day?
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 5):
Do we need another one of these threads?

Nope.

But apparently any time these Anderson and Clark divas open their mouth, we're going to have to hear about it. They're becoming the Kardashians of the aviation industry.   
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
9w748capt
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:34 pm

Certainly the ME3 are run by governments with bottomless pockets and little regard for the human lives that have built their utopian estates, but the US3 sure don't help themselves. The US3 cartel are making money hand over fist yet continue to degrade and downgrade their service. Pathetic.
 
afriwing
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:44 pm

There's another thread on this forum discussing this same issue. I think, for completeness, we should continue this at

EK Submits Full Rebuttal To USA, Speaks To Press (by enilria Jun 30 2015 in Civil Aviation)

But just to answer one of your queries:

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 4):
Deliver a product that their basic market (in your own words) "won't pay for?" Explain to me how, in their market, that makes sense please.

Obviously the market is willing to pay for such services, hence EK A380s and 77Ws are not flying empty to/from US.

It's a new world order, a new breed of travellers, that requires new fresh marketing and planning approaches. As Mr Clark put it "The US legacy airlines just don't get it".
Afriwings
 
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thekorean
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting afriwing (Reply 8):

US3 get it, as evident in them making boat load of money, not just short haul.

I live in US and I understand it. People want cheapest possible travel. EK does offer that, great service is just cherry on the top.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting afriwing (Reply 8):
Obviously the market is willing to pay for such services

Correction: a fraction of the market is willing to pay for such, such that a carrier serving only ten cities (most of which have only a single daily flight) can effectively exploit it.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 9):
US3 get it, as evident in them making boat load of money, not just short haul.

  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting afriwing (Reply 8):
It's a new world order, a new breed of travellers, that requires new fresh marketing and planning approaches. As Mr Clark put it "The US legacy airlines just don't get it".

Please. No airline in the history of mankind has panicked because "errmagerrd these new airlines are too FABULOUS". The premise is laughable--never mind not supported by any data. Airlines want protectionism because the competition is low cost, and in some cases outright subsidized.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting afriwing (Reply 8):

Obviously the market is willing to pay for such services, hence EK A380s and 77Ws are not flying empty to/from US.

It's a new world order, a new breed of travellers, that requires new fresh marketing and planning approaches. As Mr Clark put it "The US legacy airlines just don't get it".

You do realize that EK is usually cheaper and much cheaper than on most one-stop connecting itineraries from the U.S.?
People aren't paying more to fly them, they are buying the cheaper fare.
The argument from the US3 is not that they can't compete because ME3 have a better product, but that they can't compete with carriers that don't have to price their product to make a profit (because of government assistance).
Mr. Clark publicly saying that EK doesn't haven't to return profits to investors (government) would be making the case for the US3.

Try pricing a trip from LAX to Mumbai and see who offers the lowest fares on one-stop itineraries. If EK & EY have a better product, they certainly aren't getting anybody to pay for it. In fact, they aren't even charging the same as US3 for their superior product, they are charging less. Considering economics, explain how that works?
Then look at ME3 non-stop pricing to Dubai and AUH. They know how to charge premium where they have an advantage. But that advantage is non-stop service not product, at least that is what their pricing says and apparently the service they offer that people are willing to pay for.


All the public comments on either side is nothing more than rhetoric.
If there is a violation of the treaty as has been asserted, there will be recourse in due time by
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
No airline in the history of mankind has panicked because "errmagerrd these new airlines are too FABULOUS".

    

Then again, I wonder if AA vs Legend, might be the closest example thereof?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
The premise is laughable--never mind not supported by any data.

^THIS!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
9w748capt
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 9):
US3 get it, as evident in them making boat load of money, not just short haul.

But do they? Or are they just riding a high of sorts? Especially given the current climate of heavy reliance on air travel in the US, the vast size of our country, the improved economy (unemployment now lowest of any point during the Obama tenure IIRC) - and now half the competition of just a few years ago? Overall the service on US airlines sucks, it's just that simple. Look at the "new AA" and the significant cuts they made the instant they had the chance. Of course backtracking now after the backlash, but still lipstick on a pig. I would say only a few US carriers get it - maybe B6 when it comes to Mint is an exception. WN still appears to offer consistently good (if no-frills) service. But compare the catering and premium service (hell even the economy service) on most any foreign carrier - not just the ME3 but pretty much any European or Asian flag carrier offers far superior service to anything the US cartel can offer.
 
afriwing
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:29 pm

For completeness, let's continue on the main thread of this subject please.

EK Submits Full Rebuttal To USA, Speaks To Press (by enilria Jun 30 2015 in Civil Aviation)
Afriwings
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 13):
Then again, I wonder if AA vs Legend, might be the closest example thereof?

The focus on service is the reason Legend, Muse, Midwest, Virgin Atlantic *and* America, Silverjet, Kingfisher, Eos, MGM Grand Air, and many others are the HUGE profitable success stories they are today, while airlines like Spirit, Ryanair, Air Asia, Southwest, Air Arabia, Allegiant, Easyjet are circling the drain--the latter just don't listen to customers' demands!
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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sassiciai
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:38 pm

On the thread topic, I watched the entire interview with Sir Tim. I wonder, before you respond, if you can state categorically that you watched all 1 hour and 20 minutes or so!

I take my hat off to him, a very astute performance, both in his own bit that was probably rehearsed and polished, but also in his handling of the questions (some will no doubt claim that the questions were pre-ordained!)

Most of the arguments in the above posts are laughable, and in serious denial of the facts. The US3 dont even really try to compete internationally across the board, and are focused mostly on domestic service and a few sure international routes.

Now they are crying "foul" at the ME3 (ME1 in particular) because it is/will eat the US3's breakfast/lunch/dinner wherever they compete since yesterday, and today, and for the foreseeable future until one or all of the US3 gets its head out of its an*s and reacts like any market-driven organisation should!

[Edited 2015-07-04 12:41:05]
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 14):
Or are they just riding a high of sorts?

You mean following the economy? Yeah, imagine that.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 14):
and now half the competition of just a few years ago?

Except that RPMs are higher now and fares in 2014 are 13% lower (adjusted for inflation) than they were 20yrs ago, when we had 6 legacies.

So please explain how we have "half the competition of just a few years ago" in any meaningful terms other than name-on-a-tail.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 14):
Overall the service on US airlines sucks

Not for those willing to pay for exactly what they want.

You want a $199 transcon? ...then you get what comes for that price.

But you're not going to hear most people on AA's Flagship or B6's Mint whining about "service." Why? Because they PAID FOR IT.


Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
The focus on service is the reason Legend, Muse, Midwest, Virgin Atlantic *and* America, Silverjet, Kingfisher, Eos, MGM Grand Air, and many others are the HUGE profitable success stories they are today, while airlines like Spirit, Ryanair, Air Asia, Southwest, Air Arabia, Allegiant, Easyjet are circling the drain--the latter just don't listen to customers' demands!

This really needs to be played on repeat, every time the word "service" is written in this forum.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:18 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 17):
On the thread topic, I watched the entire interview with Sir Tim. I wonder, before you respond, if you can state categorically that you watched all 1 hour and 20 minutes or so!

Ain't nobody got time fuh dat. I could not care less what either side rambles on for hours at a time because both sides have long left any reasonable level of data far behind. The fact that he said this:

"“Delta is returning $7 billion to its shareholders,” he said. “Why couldn’t they spend that improving what they do – investing in product, making the consumer enjoy their product?"

...just shows how dumb this conversation has gotten. Now why on earth would a publicly traded company owned by shareholders return money to its shareholders? Hrmmmmm.    Shareholders are just the worst when they aren't the government!  
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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sassiciai
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
Ain't nobody got time fuh dat. I could not care less what either side rambles on for hours at a time because both sides have long left any reasonable level of data far behind. The fact that he said this:

"“Delta is returning $7 billion to its shareholders,” he said. “Why couldn’t they spend that improving what they do – investing in product, making the consumer enjoy their product?"

...just shows how dumb this conversation has gotten. Now why on earth would a publicly traded company owned by shareholders return money to its shareholders? Hrmmmmm.    Shareholders are just the worst when they aren't the government!  

Seems that your definition of a service company that has only customers to provide income differs radically from Sir Tim's!

Customer focus V shareholder focus! They are not mutually exclusive, they are linked. But in a way that the US3 has forgotten! Cart before horses, anyone?
 
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res77W
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:36 pm

Another one of these threads...

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 6):

Precisely. Waiting on the reality tv show special.

Yes, the ME3 all have glitzy cabins and fancy airports compared to the US3. But the US3 by no means are trash. DL and soon AA will offer all aisle access in business class, as well as international WiFi.

Just my two cents.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:42 pm

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 14):

American travelers pretend they care about service when all it matters is price. Spirit is so popular because of it.

Good service is again just a cherry on top.
 
Mortyman
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:57 pm

Moderators, please Close this thread. There is no reason for this second one when there is already one here:

EK Submits Full Rebuttal To USA, Speaks To Press (by enilria Jun 30 2015 in Civil Aviation)
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:38 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 20):
Customer focus V shareholder focus! They are not mutually exclusive, they are linked. But in a way that the US3 has forgotten! Cart before horses, anyone?

And whooooooo are EK's shareholders?  
I don't take responsibility at all
 
YYZflyboy
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:58 pm

At various times on the board, all of the above posts are exactly the reason why I've always asked why Americans refuse take the higher prices. Is the travelling public THAT strapped for cash that they need a cheap, no-frills experience? Compare that with the travelling public in Asia and Middle-East, where they WILLINGLY pay a bit more to get a higher level quality of service.
 
rbavfan
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:22 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 4):
US airlines last year [2014] mishandled 21.8 million bags, or 6.96 per 1,000 passengers, according to SITA, an aviation communications and technology company that tracks baggage performance each year. That's well less than half the rate in 2007, when airlines world-wide mishandled 46.9 million bags, or 18.88 per 1,000 passengers, SITA said.
Hmm, wanna try that one again?

In 2007 they checked a lot more bags per person. I've seen comments on a.net that bag check is down around 50% vs 2007. So as such the numbed would be lower due to carry on bags, not due to less displacement vs 2007.
 
rbavfan
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:23 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 6):
But apparently any time these Anderson and Clark divas open their mouth, we're going to have to hear about it. They're becoming the Kardashians of the aviation industry.   

Please god do not allow them to start wearing skimpy clothes.
 
rbavfan
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:31 am

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 12):
Try pricing a trip from LAX to Mumbai and see who offers the lowest fares on one-stop itineraries. If EK & EY have a better product, they certainly aren't getting anybody to pay for it. In fact, they aren't even charging the same as US3 for their superior product, they are charging less. Considering economics, explain how that works?
Then look at ME3 non-stop pricing to Dubai and AUH. They know how to charge premium where they have an advantage. But that advantage is non-stop service not product, at least that is what their pricing says and apparently the service they offer that people are willing to pay for.

Lets see:
Cheap labor to clean & service the planes.
Cheap labor to provide other services at DBX.
Exim bank financing that US carriers do not qualify for, but the US government makes banks swallow for foreign airlines.
-Note this is going away finally. An A380 with half the interest rate or less is much cheaper to fly.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:06 am

Quoting YYZflyboy (Reply 25):

At various times on the board, all of the above posts are exactly the reason why I've always asked why Americans refuse take the higher prices. Is the travelling public THAT strapped for cash that they need a cheap, no-frills experience? Compare that with the travelling public in Asia and Middle-East, where they WILLINGLY pay a bit more to get a higher level quality of service.


Totally false. Air Asia, Air Arabia, and even FlyDubai are generally much more profitable than the ME3. People demand cheap airfare--over everything else other than schedule--the world over
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Mortyman
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:15 am

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 28):
Exim bank financing that US carriers do not qualify for, but the US government makes banks swallow for foreign airlines.

There is a European bank of the same type that US carriers use wen they buy Airbus aircraft.
 
coolian2
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:27 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
Totally false. Air Asia, Air Arabia, and even FlyDubai are generally much more profitable than the ME3. People demand cheap airfare--over everything else other than schedule--the world over

That completely argues against yourself. Yes the low cost airlines are there, how come the premium airlines still have a market?
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
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maxter
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 17):
On the thread topic, I watched the entire interview with Sir Tim. I wonder, before you respond, if you can state categorically that you watched all 1 hour and 20 minutes or so!

I take my hat off to him, a very astute performance, both in his own bit that was probably rehearsed and polished, but also in his handling of the questions (some will no doubt claim that the questions were pre-ordained!)

Most of the arguments in the above posts are laughable, and in serious denial of the facts. The US3 dont even really try to compete internationally across the board, and are focused mostly on domestic service and a few sure international routes.

Now they are crying "foul" at the ME3 (ME1 in particular) because it is/will eat the US3's breakfast/lunch/dinner wherever they compete since yesterday, and today, and for the foreseeable future until one or all of the US3 gets its head out of its an*s and reacts like any market-driven organisation should!

This is the best post of the thread... Respect to you mate. I too watched the entire interview as well as the Q&A at the end and Sir Tim was polite at all times. Why is it that the same old diatribe of subsidized EK surfaces on these threads. What does EK have to do to convince some of the posters above that that is not the case...
maxter
 
maxter
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:07 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
...just shows how dumb this conversation has gotten. Now why on earth would a publicly traded company owned by shareholders return money to its shareholders? Hrmmmmm. Shareholders are just the worst when they aren't the government!

So why does returning money to shareholders have to be binary, all or nothing...

What is dumb is returning maximum profits to shareholders and not spending enough to maintain your core source of income to develop and improve so profits can be grown and be sustainable, and not go running to the Govt for bankruptcy protection every time things get a little tough... That's dumb.
maxter
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:15 am

I've flown Delta a lot lately. They've definitely invested a lot in their product. It's a good experience, not the ghastly experience people are portraying here. In fact , most airlines in the US are investing more in the onboard experience.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting maxter (Reply 32):

The man should let the fact speak for itself. Guy comes out as very insecure.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 12):
You do realize that EK is usually cheaper and much cheaper than on most one-stop connecting itineraries from the U.S.?

They are?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 12):

People aren't paying more to fly them, they are buying the cheaper fare.

They are?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 12):
Try pricing a trip from LAX to Mumbai and see who offers the lowest fares on one-stop itineraries.

I did for two week trip every month of 2015 (August 2015 up to and including December 2015) and not once did EK come out the cheapest. EY came out the cheapest only once during August 2015. *

Interestingly enough, the European carriers or some combo of US/European/Asian carriers came out the cheapest practically all of the time.

*-using kayak.com as my test engine.
"Up the Irons!"
 
coolian2
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:53 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 35):
The man should let the fact speak for itself. Guy comes out as very insecure.

I know you're aware of the context of the presentation, so this is a cheap, weak shot.
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777ER
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RE: Tim Clark Blasts Big 3 U.S. Airlines

Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:37 am

This thread is now archived as there is already another thread discussing the same topic. All discussions can continue there

EK Submits Full Rebuttal To USA, Speaks To Press (by enilria Jun 30 2015 in Civil Aviation)
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

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Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

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Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos