FedEx Purchases Additional 767 Freighters

KarelXWB · Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:02 am

Seems that FedEx is in the market for up to 50 additional 767-300F jets.

Quote:
According to Market Intelligence, FDX is likely to order as many as 50 more 767-300Fs and perhaps up to 10 777Fs, a plane it has previously deferred.

FedEx has a board meeting this month in Seattle.

Source:
http://leehamnews.com/2015/07/08/boe...in-line-for-large-freighter-order/

EPA001 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:10 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Seems that FedEx is in the market for up to 50 additional 767-300F jets.

Well, since they are helping to keep the B767 line open they might get very good pricing on these still fine aircraft. The B777-F would be a nice addition to the FedEx fleet too.

TC957 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:10 am

Whoa ! That'll keep the 767 line going for a good few more years yet, unless a production increase is planned.
The 77F's are presumably the ones previously ordered anyway, then deferred, now FX see fit to take them in something like the original timescale. I'm sure Boeing can slot them in.

Okcflyer · Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:47 am

The article states that MD-11 is ill-suited for domestic ops. Why is that?

behramjee · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:00 am

wont it be best for them (from a capital expense point of view) to buy some used B763Fs or pax versions and then convert them into freighters rather than purchase brand new outright?

KarelXWB · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:02 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
since they are helping to keep the B767 line open

Quoting TC957 (Reply 2):
That'll keep the 767 line going for a good few more years yet

With 170 tankers in backlog the line will be running for the next 10 years or so.

b747400erf · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:34 am

Quoting OKCFlyer (Reply 3):
The article states that MD-11 is ill-suited for domestic ops. Why is that?

Fuel and mx costs is my guess.

na · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:47 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 6):
Fuel and mx costs is my guess.

Should still be better than the MD-10 they replace.

EPA001 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:52 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
With 170 tankers in backlog the line will be running for the next 10 years or so.

Has the production of the tanker fleet already started?

b747400erf · Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:30 am

Quoting na (Reply 7):

Should still be better than the MD-10 they replace.

But not by much. According to some pilots over there, they are penny pinching with tight schedules and little extra fuel, this must be the reason for a push to a modern fleet. Competing with 5X and their more efficient fleet will require 2 engine airplanes that are not hanger queens.

GCT64 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:35 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 8):
Has the production of the tanker fleet already started?

The first few have come off the line, here's a couple of examples:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bastian Ding

EPA001 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:33 am

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 10):
The first few have come off the line, here's a couple of examples:

Thanks for the info and the picture.

Revelation · Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:37 pm

Very good news that FX is planning to turn over some of the older frames sooner rather than later.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
since they are helping to keep the B767 line open they might get very good pricing

As above they are past the gap filling period but I think they'll get good pricing because Boeing can make them pretty cheaply given all the infrastructure is in place.

Quoting OKCFlyer (Reply 3):
The article states that MD-11 is ill-suited for domestic ops. Why is that?

It's built for long range. That means it has all the support structure needed to lift fuel and pax for a 7000 nm journey. FedEx loads are more about volume than weight so they don't need all that capacity for domestic runs.

INFINITI329 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:42 pm

I wonder if Boeing will offer the 787-style cockpit on these 767s for FX

Stitch · Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:51 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Seems that FedEx is in the market for up to 50 additional 767-300F jets.

Not surprised at all as it will be the perfect replacement for the A300F, A310F and MD-10F fleets. I expect they'll eventually take another 50 beyond this once the A300-600F fleet starts to come up for replacement (I know they're all relatively new builds, so it will be awhile).

Quoting behramjee (Reply 4):
Wont it be best for them (from a capital expense point of view) to buy some used B763Fs or pax versions and then convert them into freighters rather than purchase brand new outright?

Assuming FedEx will be operating these frames for many decades, the savings in maintenance and fuel (new builds will incorporate all the weight and performance improvements Boeing has been able to design in over the program's life) should more then compensate for the higher capital costs.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 13):
I wonder if Boeing will offer the 787-style cockpit on these 767s for FX

FedEx has teamed with Rockwell Collins and Boeing to update their existing 757 and 767 cockpits to a "787-style" and their new-build 767s were expected to be equipped with the cockpit at the FAL starting this year.

Revelation · Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Not surprised at all as it will be the perfect replacement for the A300F, A310F and MD-10F fleets.

And domestic MD-11s too, apparently.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Assuming FedEx will be operating these frames for many decades, the savings in maintenance and fuel (new builds will incorporate all the weight and performance improvements Boeing has been able to design in over the program's life) should more then compensate for the higher capital costs.

In particular the floor is a new design with new materials.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
FedEx has teamed with Rockwell Collins and Boeing to update their existing 757 and 767 cockpits to a "787-style" and their new-build 767s were expected to be equipped with the cockpit at the FAL starting this year.

Yup:

Spacepope · Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
Yup:

Why is that FX 767 tanking an F-15?

It'll be interesting to see the retirement of much of the older FX fleet in the next few years. The new build A300s will soldier on I'm sure, but the Pratt-engined conversions will probably hit the desert soon, as will the A310s. I've noticed on the MD-10 SDRs I've checked have a pretty high number (relatively) of skin crack repairs lately.

wingman · Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:27 pm

Better question: why is the Earth upside down? That's some crazy tanker capability right there.

Revelation · Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 16):
Why is that FX 767 tanking an F-15?

It gives it something profitable to do with its time between sorts!

In turn FX is using F-15s for a new uber-high priority service!

rotating14 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:38 pm

So what's going to replace the flying spares?

queb · Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
FedEx has teamed with Rockwell Collins and Boeing to update their existing 757 and 767 cockpits to a "787-style" and their new-build 767s were expected to be equipped with the cockpit at the FAL starting this year.

Yup:

Don't think so, the new cockpit is for the 767-2C only

Revelation · Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 20):
Don't think so, the new cockpit is for the 767-2C only

http://cargofacts.com/first-767-300f-for-fedex/ says:

Quote:

Although they’ll be identical in terms of capacity and performance to previous 767 Freighters, the FedEx fleet will be getting a cockpit upgrade designed by Boeing and Rockwell-Collins. The new flight deck will incorporate some 787-related innovations and be derived from that being developed for the KC-46 Tanker. The flight deck exchanges the classic six relatively small CRT displays for three giant LCD panels that incorporate far more information. There will also be a heads-up display system.

Rumor has it that the first three FedEx 767s will be delivered with the classic cockpit and upgraded later, as the system is set for flight testing beginning in Q4 2013. The upgrade will also be available as a retrofit for the 757 – which uses many of the same systems.

So it is "a" new cockpit, no?

Stitch · Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 20):
Don't think so, the new cockpit is for the 767-2C only.

The cockpit Revelation posted is the one going into the KC-46A. Assuming a civilian 767-2C is ever produced, I imagine it would have the same cockpit.

The cockpit that Rockwell-Collins and Boeing have developed for FedEx's 757s and 767s is different. This is a CG rendering of it from Rockwell-Collins press site:

And here is a picture of the actual cockpit:

[Edited 2015-07-08 09:17:10]

mffoda · Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 2):
The 77F's are presumably the ones previously ordered anyway, then deferred, now FX see fit to take them in something like the original timescale. I'm sure Boeing can slot them in.

I believe they have 13-15 options remaining in addition to the deferred A/C.

Revelation · Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
The cockpit that Rockwell-Collins and Boeing have developed for FedEx's 757s and 767s is different. This is a CG rendering of it from Rockwell-Collins press site:

Excellent info - thanks!

queb · Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:56 pm

The RC/Boeing cockpit upgrade is a retrofit for aftermarket aircraft only.

https://www.rockwellcollins.com/Data/News/2014_Cal_Year/CS/FY14CSNR44-767LDS.aspx

Quote:
Rockwell Collins has received an initial Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) supplemental type certificate (STC) for its Boeing 757/767 large-format display flight deck retrofit. The STC is a result of the collaboration between Rockwell Collins and Boeing.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...-developing-757767-nextgen-cockpit

Quote:
Supplemental type certification of the manufactured-backed retrofit is expected in the second quarter of 2014, the avionics manufacturer says.

The upgrade will offer operators of more than 1,600 757s and 767s still flying increased efficiency, reliability and enhanced crew situational awareness, says Jeff Standerski, Rockwell Collins vice president and general manager for air transport systems.

kaitak744 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:00 pm

With all of the improvements over the years, does anyone know what the fuel burn improvement % is of the current 767F deliveries to FedEx, vs. 767F deliveries from the 90s?

Also, I know the ex-LAN 767s have winglets, but the newly purchased fleet does not. Is there a reason behind this?

seabosdca · Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 26):
Also, I know the ex-LAN 767s have winglets, but the newly purchased fleet does not. Is there a reason behind this?

Short trips (cruise fuel savings matter less, increased weight matters more) and gate spacing.

Stitch · Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 26):
Also, I know the ex-LAN 767s have winglets, but the newly purchased fleet does not. Is there a reason behind this?

As I have heard from FX personnel on this site, the winglets make the span too wide to effectively slot into MD-10 / MD-11 positions.

wingflex744 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:07 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
And here is a picture of the actual cockpit:

Great picture from my friend Angelo

So far only the FX new built 767 get this new cockpit, however those 3 frames leased from Lan (with winglets) will maintain the standard 767 cockpit

readytotaxi · Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:12 pm

FedEx clearly see the cargo market as a growth area going forward, perhaps I need to buy some shares

747classic · Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting wingflex744 (Reply 29):
So far only the FX new built 767 get this new cockpit

Also both 767-300F aircraft purchased from Silk Way West (N297FE and N298FE) will be upgraded with the new flight deck, like the first 3 new built 767-32SF aircraft.

tortugamon · Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:13 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
Well, since they are helping to keep the B767 line open they might get very good pricing on these still fine aircraft.

The 767 line will be open for 10 years regardless of this FedEx order happens or not.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
The B777-F would be a nice addition to the FedEx fleet too.

FedEx is already the largest operator of the type in the World.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Not surprised at all as it will be the perfect replacement for the A300F, A310F and MD-10F fleets

Not only are you not surprised, you have been calling for this exact thing for years now.

tortugamon

Western727 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:24 pm

I love that the article mentions that UA is making moves to keep its 767 fleet operating for quite a while more; we know from other threads that other airlines (i.e., AA, DL) are making similar moves.

Go, 767! As has often been said on a.net, the 767 offers outstanding 2/7 window seat odds in Y.

JAAlbert · Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:33 pm

How much does it cost to retrofit a new cockpit into an existing 767 or 757?

boeingfixer · Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:15 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
The cockpit that Rockwell-Collins and Boeing have developed for FedEx's 757s and 767s is different. This is a CG rendering of it from Rockwell-Collins press site:

This flight deck upgrade is not just specifically for FedEx. It is being marketed to all operators of the 2 types. The STC will be for both the 757 and 767.

FedEx has no plans to use the Rockwell-Collins STC on their B757 fleet as they have already done an upgrade with the IS&S flat panel system.

Cheers,

John

trnswrld · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:20 pm

Man, those 767's are beasts and just do not stop.

b747400erf · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:29 pm

FX already upgraded their 757 cockpits, now they are going to upgrade them again?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

HPRamper · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 19):
So what's going to replace the flying spares?

FX has not used the flying spares in many years. It's just not economical. Now, they have certain regional routes that leave later and do a sort of zigzag close to other markets on their way to the hub in case they need to drop in for a recovery.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
As I have heard from FX personnel on this site, the winglets make the span too wide to effectively slot into MD-10 / MD-11 positions.

They require a MD11 spot - they will not fit in a MD10 spot. Problem is...FX still has to fit the MD11s in the MD11 spots

Stitch · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:43 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 37):
FX already upgraded their 757 cockpits, now they are going to upgrade them again?

No. The article I was referring to said they were working on them for the 757 and 767, however only 767s will get them at FedEx as:

Quoting boeingfixer (Reply 35):
FedEx has no plans to use the Rockwell-Collins STC on their B757 fleet as they have already done an upgrade with the IS&S flat panel system.

VC10er · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:48 pm

While not my #1 favorite aircraft, the 767 holds a very special place in my heart. 15+ years ago a United 767 was my home away from home. She is an amazing aircraft with an amazing history and track record.

Also, I absolutely LOVE the Landor FedEx livery on the 767. When I fly over them parked at EWR, the proportions are perfect and the livery makes them look new, not 30 years old.

Congratulations to Boeing and FedEx.

(the 747-8i is my #1 favorite thing to look at...almost)

ThReaTeN · Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
The B777-F would be a nice addition to the FedEx fleet too.

They already have 25 777F frames in their fleet. The phrasing in the article is a bit misleading.

Amazing by the way if FedEx takes on 50 more 767F. That would bring the total up to 100 - all ordered in the last few years - and thereby making up a significant part of sales through the entire 767 program. And a few years ago I thought of the 767 as more or less dead (aside from the tanker program), and probably wasn't the only one.

[Edited 2015-07-08 14:55:05]

EPA001 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:08 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 32):
The 767 line will be open for 10 years regardless of this FedEx order happens or not.

Yes, I know now since GTC84 posted that the tanker production had already begun. I was under the false impression that the building of new tanker aircraft based on the B767 still had to start.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 32):
FedEx is already the largest operator of the type in the World.

I had UPS in mind for some reason. Thanks for pointing this out.

seabosdca · Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:16 pm

This makes total sense. The big problem with the 767 as a passenger aircraft was the inefficient cross-section. It just couldn't carry enough passengers for its weight. That doesn't affect cargo, and the 767 has proven to be an excellent and still very competitive cargo hauler. I think we'll keep seeing sales as long as there are cargo MDs and A300s/A310s out there needing replacement.

strfyr51 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 4):
wont it be best for them (from a capital expense point of view) to buy some used B763Fs or pax versions and then convert them into freighters rather than purchase brand new outright?

there are not a lot of B767-300er's on the market, in the USA American, Delta and United are all still flying theirs and I hear not in any hurry to put them on the market or to park them.

Venus6971 · Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:48 pm

Sounds like that Boeing will keep upgrading the 767 to go along with 737 Max.

VC10er · Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 43):

It may have had an inefficient cross section, but economy at 2 3 2 is great!

slightly off topic, but does the 767-400 have better economics e.g.: pax to weight?

I know: they don't offer the 400 any longer

A few weeks ago there was a thread speculating if United would order any new 767's to expand. Everybody seemed to poo-poo that idea and said that UA would rather order more 787's. If I was to go back to that thread, is a 767 built today, with better economics, now not be viable for a pax airline because (IF THEY DID WANT MORE 767's) there would be an equal backlog, vs before the FedEx order?

dbo861 · Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:13 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 46):
It may have had an inefficient cross section, but economy at 2 3 2 is great!

I totally agree. I'd take an updated Delta 763ER across the Atlantic any day over a 777.

Spacepope · Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:45 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 44):
there are not a lot of B767-300er's on the market, in the USA American, Delta and United are all still flying theirs and I hear not in any hurry to put them on the market or to park them.

The problem is that partly due to the 787 delays, the feedstock for good 767 freighters with low-ish hours is pretty darn low. The ones sent to the desert either have over 100,000 hours, or have crazy high cycles from flying domestic runs in Japan.

ssteve · Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 45):

Sounds like that Boeing will keep upgrading the 767 to go along with 737 Max.

Not exactly that much.

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