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PIEAvantiP180
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:04 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:35 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 85):
Maintenance should be well compensated but realistically the level of training and expense that goes into that training or the job's responsibility is not at the level of a pilot nor the dispatcher.

Your statement on level of training between dispatchers and mechanics is incorrect. It took me 14 months, 2000 hours, and 20k of student loans to get thru and graduate an A&P school. And as my instructors put it, all graduating from the school gives you is a license to learn how to fix planes when you get hired to an actual maintenance operation where you will actually learn how to fix the aircraft that facility maintains or that airlines operates. While you can go down to FLL Sheffield school of aeronautics and for 5k and 5weeks of instruction graduate from a dispatcher course ready to dispatch any aircraft on the planet.
 
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b727fa
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:13 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 81):
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 79):
lets just make this fair.... how about pilots and mechanics make the most money.

hundred thousand for you
hundred thousand for me

Dispatchers may have a few words to say about that arrangement what with their whole "sharing operational control" thing...   

No. FA's should make the most. They have to get everyone out of the mess when the s*** hits the fan! LOL! (just kidding!)
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5375
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:56 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 87):
And FYI there is a big difference between having a private pilot license and flying a transport category jet for a major airline.

I didn't say anything about a private pilot license
I said they fly privately.

I know a few who have the licenses to fly big jets and did so in the mill. QOL issue. IMHO i would much rather make what i make and be able to go home every night. (or mornings if your into that.)

Quoting par13del (Reply 95):

So the benefit of a union, if the other groups followed suit the situation would be much better, management would not be able to play one group off against the other.

didn't say that.
I said they have, in general done a better job. Plenty of MX unions suck.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 94):

So do outsourced maintenance shops overseas - and generally for a whole lot less.

a whole lot less for the same quality?

Ahem, prove it. Real data please.


(and remember your airline sends some of its work to another major US airline. I can promise you that isn't "for a whole lot less"


top of the line quality though.)

Quoting nwadeicer (Reply 96):

Airline management's wet dream.

EA CO AS is management at AS. Arguably one of the leaders in US airline outsourcing (if not the). If EA and CO mean he/she was at EA and CO even more outsourcing.

Hopefully the OP stays a very long, long way away from Delta.  
 
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northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 100):
Your statement on level of training between dispatchers and mechanics is incorrect. It took me 14 months, 2000 hours, and 20k of student loans to get thru and graduate an A&P school. And as my instructors put it, all graduating from the school gives you is a license to learn how to fix planes when you get hired to an actual maintenance operation where you will actually learn how to fix the aircraft that facility maintains or that airlines operates. While you can go down to FLL Sheffield school of aeronautics and for 5k and 5weeks of instruction graduate from a dispatcher course ready to dispatch any aircraft on the planet.

That's not true--the dispatch license is exactly the same, it's a license to learn and those graduating from Sheffield can't just walk into the job without any prior experience in the airline industry. It takes a similar amount of time to an A&P to get your own desk and be dispatching your own flights.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 88):
You literally can't fly a plane if its broken. You legally can't fly without FAs. You literally can't fly without pilots.
You can fly a plane without bags. If you need bags, as the world is showing us, you can pay pretty much anyone 8 bucks an hour to throw em on the plane for you. Or do like Delta and give them 8 bucks and let them fly for free.

Oh and FYI mechanics get to crawl into the hot ass bins all the time.

You can fly without bags but not successfully. Just like you can have people check-in online and bypass ticket counter/gate agents but that's not how things work. How do you plan on pushing back? Having power hooked up, etc?

I have done both maintenance and ramp jobs, both are equally important to the airline's success and safety. Just like pilots, dispatchers, gate agents, managers, maintenance, etc. Everyone does their part and unfortunately the disparity between group pay is pretty brutal.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
nwadeicer
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:17 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 102):
EA CO AS is management at AS. Arguably one of the leaders in US airline outsourcing (if not the). If EA and CO mean he/she was at EA and CO even more outsourcing.

EA CO AS EIEIO being management would love nothing more to have a workforce of minimum wage, part-time ramp, fleet service, flight attendants and pilots, Well pilots are next to Jeebus in stature so that wouldn't happen. But everyone else, minimal hours and crap pay! Middle management always cracks me up, sucking up desperately to make it to the next level, stepping on anybody to make it. You go middle management!!!
I miss the Red Tail
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15796
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 102):
a whole lot less for the same quality?

Ahem, prove it. Real data please.

What data would you use to define "quality," exactly? It's not particularly quantifiable data.

Cost-wise, just look at all the third party MRO businesses out there; clearly they exist because many companies find it less expensive to farm out some of that work.

Line maintenance, you keep in house. Heavy MRO is sometimes better outsourced; depends on the carrier.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 102):
EA CO AS is management at AS. Arguably one of the leaders in US airline outsourcing (if not the). If EA and CO mean he/she was at EA and CO even more outsourcing.

C'mon now, don't be petty and personal; I'd like to think you're better than that.

Yes, AS outsourced heavy MRO activity but line maintenance remains healthy, and those folks should be (and are!) compensated quite well.

My point was simply to the comment below, that yes there ARE others who can do the same things he or she does, and at lower cost, so arguing for huge pay increases can lead to senior leadership asking if that same work can be done elsewhere at a better cost.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 93):
I do things that very few people do
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
nwadeicer
Posts: 311
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:17 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 105):
My point was simply to the comment below, that yes there ARE others who can do the same things he or she does, and at lower cost

So tell me EA CO AS EIEIO, is there someone who could do your job, say a computer or intern, for less?
I miss the Red Tail
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15796
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:43 am

Quoting nwadeicer (Reply 106):
So tell me EA CO AS EIEIO, is there someone who could do your job, say a computer or intern, for less?

Computer? No.

Intern? Sure, but you'd lose a lot in the process; certainly more than you'd save by outsourcing my work. I won't say I'm irreplaceable though; AS was in business for 60 years before I joined the company.

However I also don't make a point of saying that no one can do what I do and "not happening, bud" to my employer for my pay increases not being industry-leading.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:34 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 98):
Quoting 737tdi (Reply 89):F/A's making more then me is sickening IMO. Everyone of them started as a civilian. I have 35 years of career invested. I am sorry but F/A's are below me but the company seems to think they aren't.
Lol. I'm sure you are just a pleasant person that would be a marvelous flight attendant. I mean, if you are better than flight attendants, you can do their job better than them too, right?

To be honest I am usually a very pleasant and agreeable person. There are just a few things that really touch a sore spot. F/As are one of those things. They apply for a job, get hired, trained and now they are F/As. Is this a job or a career. I would love to see some numbers on how many actually make it a career. Then compare that to mechanics who paid $20,000 and years to be able to work for the same airline. That is my greatest objection. Don't get me wrong, I love our F/As but to here them talk they should be compensated as if they were a highly educated bunch of folks.


I could live with a new contract that gives us a bit of a raise and things stay as they are. I make enough to live comfortably but inflation will catch up. As far as being able to do the job. Yes I could, since I can repair most anything on a 737 as most of my co workers can as well. We didn't learn this in a company school, it is from years of experience. Those years should count for something, I can tell you this, most of the mechanics at WN have worked for years on aircraft to get to where they are now. DL, AA, AW, Dalfort, DeeHoward, Timco, Pimco, BFG, and many other airlines and MROs. It was not a free ride getting to where we are. I hope our F/As get what they can but there has to be some kind of reason. A person making $100,000/yr. delivering drinks and ensuring? the safety of all of the passengers.
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:46 am

Quoting nwadeicer (Reply 106):
So tell me EA CO AS EIEIO, is there someone who could do your job, say a computer or intern, for less?

First of all, I love your username. I'm a big NWA nerd and an experienced deicer myself.

But looking at your profile and seeing the age of 13-15, I just want to suggest that you should probably tone it down a little bit with this kind of talk. I'm in my 20s and have had a couple of jobs now, and even I tend to stay away from confrontational talk about the work we do in this industry, it takes a lot to get to a point of having a real experiential authority to speak on most of these things.

Take the advice or don't, I'm not gonna harass you about it or anything, it's great that there are young people ready to learn about this industry and dive right in, don't get me wrong.
Now you're flying smart
 
B737900ER
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:49 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 105):

UA found out the hard way about cheap overhauls. In the long run it pays to actually fix things during an overhaul, not ship it off to a third party for paperwork compliance. UA has been insourcing more narrow body overhauls recently, and the reliability scores of those aircraft speak for themselves.

But if you believe an off the street Chinese worker making 4 dollars an hour with no experience is qualified to know what's right and what's wrong with an airplane…
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 725
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:57 am

737tdi, that is not the attitude I would expect to see from a LUV warrior. Every employee group at WN is EQUALLY important. Doesn't matter which skills, if ANY are required for their job. Point is- you work for an airline that has *consistently* scored very well in customer satisfaction surveys- LARGELY in part due to your very hardworking Flight Attendants- who up until one contract ago were some of the LOWEST paid FAs in the industry, even while WN was posting record profits. They continue to be some of the most productive mainline FAs in the U.S. (cleaning aircraft, low reserve staffing causing constant reroutes/finishing trips hours later/being stranded on days off, extended duty days, full service even on short hauls, etc). They have very little downtime compared to FAs at other airlines and are lucky to enjoy one decent meal in a work day. Judging by how many FAs actually leave WN compared to other majors, and also judging how many folks leave other majors with years of seniority (but still too young to retire at those airlines) to come to WN says many people see the FA position at WN as a career, not a job. And although degrees aren't required, you'd be surprised how large of a percentage of WN FAs have at least a Bachelor's degree, and how many have held or currently still hold very distinctive job titles in other fields. If you want the FA group to have your group's back during negs, your attitude certainly isn't very conducive to the "family" culture that is, or I guess supposedly was SOUTHWEST. Good day sir.

[Edited 2015-07-14 03:02:05]
 
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tlecam
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:42 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 17):

I'm happy to see that the pilots saw through it and voted down the multiple considerable concessions for modest pay gains.

Props - I remember you accurately predicting this result back when information about the deal first came out.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
flyfree727
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:11 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:39 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 109):
looking at your profile and seeing the age of 13-15, I just want to suggest that you should probably tone it down a little bit with this kind of talk.

Surely you're being sarcastic? If the poster is really between 13-15 years old, he is most likely not working on a ramp. He's been a member here for 7 years. I would bet his age info is incorrect.

AA ORD
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:29 am

Quoting airplaneboy (Reply 111):
Every employee group at WN is EQUALLY important. Doesn't matter which skills, if ANY are required for their job

But isn't that the point. Don't get me wrong my friend. I love our F/As. There is not a better work force in the airline industry. My problem is with the F/As attitudes towards the mechanics in the last few quarters. The cabins are hot??? I have been chastised due to this. It is not my fault. It is according to a lot of the new F/As. The Classic will NOT keep a cabin cool on the ground. Period. If it is 100 degrees it is going to be 90 degrees in the cabin. It is what it is. Quit blaming me!!!! These guys and gals are making close if not more then me. This is wrong. Bottom line, this is wrong. I keep them safe, I keep our airline safe, I fix everything they squawk.

I believe you are wrong about the career for F/A's. They get married and bail. They move on. As I said earlier I would love to see the actual numbers between AMTs and F/As. I would bet that 90 percent of AMTs stick with their job, I really wonder what the number is for F/As sticking with WN. I would bet that most leave after 7 to 10 years. Mechanics stay for life. At least for now. Don't count Sandra and Sandra.
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:40 am

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 113):
Surely you're being sarcastic? If the poster is really between 13-15 years old, he is most likely not working on a ramp. He's been a member here for 7 years. I would bet his age info is incorrect.

AA ORD

You're right I didn't investigate beyond a look at the profile. My fault, it's been a long week. I retract my post, I wasn't paying attention.

The age info simply threw me off and I didn't look to disprove it instead I just put my foot in my mouth. My bad.
Now you're flying smart

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