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apodino
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DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:02 pm

Sounds like the delta MEC says the pilot TA failed 35 percent yes to 65 percent no. What now?
 
apodino
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:10 pm

 
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enilria
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:12 pm

That's a big deal. That throw a lot of things into chaos. Looks like it went down fairly easily too. Wasn't the MEC supporting it?
 
BDL757
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:14 pm

97% percent of those eligible voted...that's great!
 
commavia
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:15 pm

Based on the chatter elsewhere on the net, it never seemed like this was going to be a "slam dunk" by any stretch, as the unhappiness and dissatisfaction with what this TA contained, let alone things currently going on at Delta (scope, JVs, etc.) sounded pretty intense.

This sounds like a pretty telling mandate from Delta's pilot group which is, to say the least, notable given that Delta's pilot group has been pretty much at the forefront of the "let's all get along with management" movement among major U.S. airline unions.

As was already mentioned by analysts, this really doesn't change much in the near-term for the company as the contract isn't even amendable yet, but still the precedent this sets - for the industry in general and particularly at Delta - is certainly significant.
 
Prost
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:18 pm

I thought it was submitted to the membership without recommendation. This is the first time that the pilots of Delta have rejected a TA. There will not be any near term chaos, as the current contract doesn't become ammendable until Dec. 31 of this year.

I imagine the next steps are the union will poll the membership to see what sections were unacceptable. The union and company will then have negotiations on limited sections of the contract. It's important for both sides to have good relations, and I don't see this as the beginning of an acrimonious relationship. Or at least it doesn't need to be. The press releases we will read in the next few hours will be telling.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:32 pm

What is crazy is the fact that it even made it to vote, indicating out how of touch union leadership is with its general members.
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
What is crazy is the fact that it even made it to vote, indicating out how of touch union leadership is with its general members.

Agreed...Scope was the big issue?
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting apodino (Thread starter):
Sounds like the delta MEC says the pilot TA failed 35 percent yes to 65 percent no

whoa not only a no but a pretty good hell no.

I figured it would pass be the skin of DALPA's teeth.

Quoting apodino (Thread starter):
What now?

Hopefully recalls, recalls for everyone. (errr at least the yes voters on the MEC and negotiators)

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
That throw a lot of things into chaos

no it doesn't. Everyone will go back to the table.
1) a better deal will be reached, IMO, only with a big shake up in DALPA leadership.
2) same turd will be put out with a small increase in pay (8/6/4/4) with the same leadership.

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
Wasn't the MEC supporting it?

no. They voted to send it to membership but did not have a yes or no recommendation. Some on the MEC believe that it should always be voted on by membership no matter how big of a turd it is. They don't understand that does more bad than good.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
What is crazy is the fact that it even made it to vote, indicating out how of touch union leadership is with its general members.

           
 
Flighty
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:45 pm

This is why I divested airline stocks ASAP. Sure it's a great time for airlines. But ALPA will try to take it all. Just like they did before. Never underestimate pilot belief that they deserve 400-500k. They do believe it.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
Agreed...Scope was the big issue?

a big issue. Profit sharing changes, scope, the screwing over of basically every FO, sick time changes are all some of the biggest issues.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):

This is why I divested airline stocks ASAP. Sure it's a great time for airlines. But ALPA will try to take it all. Just like they did before. Never underestimate pilot belief that they deserve 400-500k. They do believe it.

ah good to see it took 9 posts before the old "I don't know what I am talking about, but whatever it is.....unions are evil"
Good work  
 
Prost
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:12 pm

....or all airline employees who make more than minimum wage are greedy.

A lot of non union DL employees have a lot riding on the pilot contract, because some of their formulas for profit sharing, etc. would trickle down to us. And so far, the texts are flying, and I'd say most are pretty pleased with the pilot right now.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 11):
A lot of non union DL employees have a lot riding on the pilot contract, because some of their formulas for profit sharing, etc. would trickle down to us. And so far, the texts are flying, and I'd say most are pretty pleased with the pilot right now.

and i can promise non-union employees damn sure weren't going to get 8/6/3/3 in the PS change. Probably more like 5/2/2/2. (not to mention the 16% DC (Up 1%) the pilots got)

I haven't talked to anyone who was educated on the matter who is upset. Of course the big question is does Delta go ahead and pull down everyone else profit sharing anyway or make another run at a TA with DALPA first.....

Quoting Prost (Reply 11):

....or all airline employees who make more than minimum wage are greedy.

trying to live life above the poverty line is stupid. Only those who have airline stock should be able to do so.      
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:47 pm

I didn't have an issue with the money- the key was that almost 6% of the pay bumps were paid for in profit sharing reduction, a new sick policy that was a complete can of worms, and significant work rules give backs.

Sorry, giving that up is not worth it for a modest pay bump.
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PGNCS
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:07 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
What is crazy is the fact that it even made it to vote, indicating out how of touch union leadership is with its general members.

That is a very good point: if they elected to pass along something so obviously unacceptable given this vote, the MEC clearly did not understand the priorities of the membership. They are the ones with the polling to know, and they totally misread the line pilots.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
This is why I divested airline stocks ASAP. Sure it's a great time for airlines. But ALPA will try to take it all. Just like they did before. Never underestimate pilot belief that they deserve 400-500k. They do believe it.

You have some evidence to support your claim that the big issue was pay rates I presume, because that hasn't been close to the top of the objections I have heard from people who are intimately familiar with the deal, as XFSUgimpLB41X (who is in a position to know) summarizes better than I would even try to below.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 13):
I didn't have an issue with the money- the key was that almost 6% of the pay bumps were paid for in profit sharing reduction, a new sick policy that was a complete can of worms, and significant work rules give backs.

Sorry, giving that up is not worth it for a modest pay bump.

I have heard more negativity on the sick leave piece than anything, but relatively little issue with the rates per se despite some gross generalizations from people on this site to the contrary. Rates are temporary, but work rule givebacks are forever, and the negotiators obviously misread the balance required to get 50%+1 to vote yes. It seems to me the Delta pilots were unhappy with the details of the agreement that most people are unaware of, or are certainly unaware of the significance of. They made their choice and now they will move forward.
 
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tb727
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:16 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 14):
That is a very good point: if they elected to pass along something so obviously unacceptable given this vote, the MEC clearly did not understand the priorities of the membership. They are the ones with the polling to know, and they totally misread the line pilots.

Yeah, I was surprised it was it even put out there so early before the amendable date after seeing a vote like that.
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Rdh3e
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 14):
That is a very good point: if they elected to pass along something so obviously unacceptable given this vote, the MEC clearly did not understand the priorities of the membership. They are the ones with the polling to know, and they totally misread the line pilots.

Or DL management believed the MEC had a weak mandate and the MEC put it to a vote to gain a better negotiating posture.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:44 pm

I'm happy to see that the pilots saw through it and voted down the multiple considerable concessions for modest pay gains.
 
wingnutmn
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:49 pm

This vote will be good for both the pilots and managment. Pilots showed they have a backbone and won't sell out for just a pay increase and worse work rules, and managment now has an understanding of what it will take to get to the 50%+1 for their bottom numbers. Excellent job on the pilots!

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reltney
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:02 pm

It was not pay. The big no in my cockpits were for scope and big reduction in profit sharing . Sick time really struck most as unacceptable as the whole section was adjusted for the top 20 abusing the system. Those who think it is for pay are not pilots or work for an airline.

ALPA is for the most part, the reason for (to name a few) standard lighting on runways, duty times, standard instrument placements in cockpits. So when the word union is used, it is not your garbage collectors union we are talking about.

Good on you Delta pilots. Let's get these things fixed and move forward..
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

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SonomaFlyer
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
This is why I divested airline stocks ASAP. Sure it's a great time for airlines. But ALPA will try to take it all. Just like they did before. Never underestimate pilot belief that they deserve 400-500k. They do believe it.

ALPA rolled over and played dead on this TA, its why it was slammed in the vote. Keep in mind that pilots are retiring at an increasing rate and not being replaced at the same rate. This means the professional pilot has move leverage than at any point in a generation.

Show me a profession where a couple of people are put in charge of hundreds of folks at at a time and may be called up on to make a split second decision that could save or doom those folks? Many here seem to think that pilots have a glamor job but look at the time zones they cross, the overnight flights done by international pilots plus the above risk management means they deserve whatever they can get out of the airlines.

DL is performing better than any other airlines. Their profits for the year will likely be around $6 billion. Management had no leverage so tried to use industrial psychologists, public relations and the old FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) to get a contract which in many ways was a big step back in terms of SCOPE, their joint venture metrics, sick leave verification etc. The pilots would be fools to have approved such a contract.

Now DL has a choice. They have huge issues with fulfilling the JV terms under the existing pilot contract, they are running very lean from a staffing perspective in some categories and their "regional partners" can't find enough pilots to man their a/c. Does DL play tough? If so, the pilots can enjoy the current contract with the terms superior in many ways to that which was proposed. If DL is smart, they'll compromise on several key issues and likely win a fast approval.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:40 pm

What DL really needs to worry about rather than messing around with scope is paying its regionals better...If they want the "mini mainline" product out of their CR9 and E175 operators, they need to ensure the carriers have the money to pay their crews a reasonable wage (and in turn employ enough pilots in the first place) and maintain and equip their aircraft and cabins to mainline standards.

Anyway, that's my one somewhat off topic rant, no more, I promise. Carry on.
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flyDTW1992
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:46 pm

Also, what's the word on the airplane orders that were predicated on the pilot contract? Likely to be thrown out the window or immediately worked into negotiations again?
Now you're flying smart
 
Flighty
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 20):
DL is performing better than any other airlines. Their profits for the year will likely be around $6 billion. Management had no leverage so tried to use industrial psychologists, public relations and the old FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) to get a contract which in many ways was a big step back in terms of SCOPE, their joint venture metrics, sick leave verification etc. The pilots would be fools to have approved such a contract.

I accept that. I am probably off base on the pay comment with regard to the current TA, just wanted to make a soapbox comment.



Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 20):

Show me a profession where a couple of people are put in charge of hundreds of folks at at a time and may be called up on to make a split second decision that could save or doom those folks?

Who are moving at 600 miles per hour. This is what I mean, though, you can be dazzled and start thinking pilots deserve high pay guarantees and scope clauses (against whom... other professional pilots). In a crisis, this acts like a noose for the companies involved. But hey, unionization is a human right so more power to them.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 22):

Also, what's the word on the airplane orders that were predicated on the pilot contract? Likely to be thrown out the window or immediately worked into negotiations again?

no union orders airplanes.

It was a carrot for sure, but if a bean counter really believed the aircraft were needed they will come. FWIW if Delta brings in the E90 without a TA the pilots flying them will be doing so cheaply compared to B6 and AA.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:26 pm

The 190s are coming anyway folks. The 50 seat regionals will retire anyway (no pilots to fly them). There were a ton of misdirection plays in the negotiation and wording of the TA. It's business and this is how things are done.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
But hey, unionization is a human right so more power to them.

If they didn't have a union, what do you think would happen to pay, scope, joint ventures, reroute pay, vacation, sick leave and all the other things that make up a pilot's contract?
 
PGNCS
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:47 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
you can be dazzled and start thinking pilots deserve high pay guarantees and scope clauses (against whom... other professional pilots).

Of COURSE scope clauses protect pilots from other professional pilots; that is entirely the point. They protect one airline's pilots from being undercut by pilots working at other airlines. For those of us working in the industry long enough, we remember the glory days of RJ expansion, mainline career stagnation, and furloughs while other professional pilots queued up to take our jobs. It is informed and experienced self-interest to seek not to repeat that cycle. Fortunately now most regional pilots will have the opportunity to fly for mainline operators should they wish to. Like I said, pay rates were not the big issue here from what I do know, and as always the Devil is in the details, and people who don't grasp the details can't grasp the entirety of the situation.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:51 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 25):
The 190s are coming anyway folks. The 50 seat regionals will retire anyway (no pilots to fly them). There were a ton of misdirection plays in the negotiation and wording of the TA. It's business and this is how things are done.

What likely won't happen now are the additional Embraer orders that DL was planning. DL was supposed to order additional new E-190s on top of those being leased from Boeing, as well as some E-175s for Connection carriers.
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:37 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 10):
the screwing over of basically every FO,

Please elaborate
 
airtechy
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:56 am

Somehow...as an outsider.. I gather from the rather mild comments that most here see the agreement being modified and evidentially passing. Two to one is definitely a failure, but I have seen a lot more lopsided failures.

Jim
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:17 am

Quoting airtechy (Reply 29):
Somehow...as an outsider.. I gather from the rather mild comments that most here see the agreement being modified and evidentially passing. Two to one is definitely a failure, but I have seen a lot more lopsided failures.

Jim

Please show us a pilot contract vote that failed by a larger margin? I can't recall one.

DL will hold off on more large regional jet orders but they have to sort out smaller main line capacity and eventual MD 88 replacement.
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:48 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 28):
Please elaborate



Normally all the pilots (check airmen and line pilots) place their bids together, and then are awarded. Later when the company decides to use a check airman, the FO that was originally assigned to that trip is removed (while keeping the pay from the trip) so that the check airman can do training. The TA would have allowed Delta to withold the trips that check airmen bid from the FOs, so those trips could be filled with all the people doing who the check airmen need to train or reserves. Seeing that US airlines are going to be hiring a lot for the foreseeable future, the company will be paying a lot of FOs to not be flying when they are assigned the check airman's trips.

This screws FOs because there are less "available" trips to be bid for, meaning more people on reserve making the monthly garuntee of 65 hours instead of a line credit around 80-90 hours. Then the kicker, if the company doesn't need to use the check airman for training, the trip would be filled with a reserve (who would be at the bottom of the seniority list as opposed to the person who's seniority could normally hold the trip).

As a result of all this the company doesn't need as many FOs and FOs get blocked from bidding for a percentage of the available trips.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:05 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 31):
This screws FOs because there are less "available" trips to be bid for, meaning more people on reserve making the monthly garuntee of 65 hours instead of a line credit around 80-90 hours. Then the kicker, if the company doesn't need to use the check airman for training, the trip would be filled with a reserve (who would be at the bottom of the seniority list as opposed to the person who's seniority could normally hold the trip).

Very close- however our reserve guarantee is variable between 72-78 hours, depending on the average line value that month.

It would cost us all a lot of money with more rsvs, thus fewer premium trips available, as well as completely changing the way FO's bid.

We are fairly close to the top in the industry in that area now (but not industry leading by a good margin), and this would have shifted us to near the bottom of the industry...worse than most regionals.

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 21):

What DL really needs to worry about rather than messing around with scope is paying its regionals better...If they want the "mini mainline" product out of their CR9 and E175 operators, they need to ensure the carriers have the money to pay their crews a reasonable wage (and in turn employ enough pilots in the first place) and maintain and equip their aircraft and cabins to mainline standards.

As the regional staffing gets tighter and tighter, they will eventually be forced to move that flying to mainline. I'd rather have that flying be real mainline rather than mini mainline, wouldn't you?
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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:10 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 30):

Please show us a pilot contract vote that failed by a larger margin? I can't recall one.

ASA turned theirs down a while back by something like 85%. This one is even more impactful though, because DL pilots have never in their history turned down a TA.

What is really astounding about this one is the union was selling it HARD. It was really bad, actually. They ignored the pilot group's desires in this, and this margin and participation level can certainly be considered a mandate.

Relations with mgmt are still fine, for those of you wondering... just they under delivered and we're going to have to give it another go to bring it up to something that is acceptable to a group that played a big roll in delivering the airline from the brink of going out of business to the most profitable and smooth running airline around.

The next few weeks are going to be interesting as the regrouping takes place.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 32):
As the regional staffing gets tighter and tighter, they will eventually be forced to move that flying to mainline. I'd rather have that flying be real mainline rather than mini mainline, wouldn't you?

Well from a personal perspective I'm torn, I have many many friends who are regional FOs, and my first experience as an airline employee (quite recently) was an internship at a certain large ERJ operator. So I could lean either way on any given day.
Now you're flying smart
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 34):
Well from a personal perspective I'm torn, I have many many friends who are regional FOs, and my first experience as an airline employee (quite recently) was an internship at a certain large ERJ operator. So I could lean either way on any given day.

Really? Regional FOs make 35,000 dollars or so and are abused terribly with poorly run operations.

Mainline FOs make between 100 and 200,000 (I'll be above 200 this year) with great quality of life in a well run operation.

Which would you choose?
Chicks dig winglets.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:33 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 32):

As the regional staffing gets tighter and tighter, they will eventually be forced to move that flying to mainline. I'd rather have that flying be real mainline rather than mini mainline, wouldn't you?

exactly.
and more importantly, DALPA has nothing to do with it. It would be stupid and irresponsible for DALPA to focus on that issue. The regional have unions for that kind of stuff. (and as mainline carriers have the age 65 bobble bust most people, IMO, wont be staying at the regional level for long anyways.)

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 27):

What likely won't happen now are the additional Embraer orders that DL was planning. DL was supposed to order additional new E-190s on top of those being leased from Boeing, as well as some E-175s for Connection carriers.

Nothing stopping them from doing this now. DL still have room for ~25 more big RJs as it is.

Again, TAs have nothing to do with airplane orders.

Quoting enilria (Reply 28):
Please elaborate

Along with what web500 said
it will take FOs who are just holding a line and probably send them to reserve. Or someone who just holds off a holiday to work on said holiday.

The union said it would only have an impact on 2% of FOs, they didn't ever realize (or did but knew it would hurt the sell job) that s*** rolls down hill. So it would effect the bottom (IIRC) 75% of FOs.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 33):

The next few weeks are going to be interesting as the regrouping takes place.

very. Hopefully some new leadership

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 33):

Relations with mgmt are still fine, for those of you wondering... just they under delivered and we're going to have to give it another go to bring it up to something that is acceptable to a group that played a big roll in delivering the airline from the brink of going out of business to the most profitable and smooth running airline around.

exactly. IMHO Anderson and DALPA saying they would park the union is just FUD. Wall street is going to be pushing to get a contract done, keep the good relationship the company has with the pilots and get the company wide profit sharing levels down. I think this idea that Anderson is going to go hard core Lorenzo is just people pushing fear.



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 26):

Of COURSE scope clauses protect pilots from other professional pilots; that is entirely the point. They protect one airline's pilots from being undercut by pilots working at other airlines. For those of us working in the industry long enough, we remember the glory days of RJ expansion, mainline career stagnation, and furloughs while other professional pilots queued up to take our jobs. It is informed and experienced self-interest to seek not to repeat that cycle. Fortunately now most regional pilots will have the opportunity to fly for mainline operators should they wish to. Like I said, pay rates were not the big issue here from what I do know, and as always the Devil is in the details, and people who don't grasp the details can't grasp the entirety of the situation.

PGNCS hits the mark as always

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
This is what I mean, though, you can be dazzled and start thinking pilots deserve high pay guarantees and scope clauses (against whom... other professional pilots).

uh... so I should be begging the company to fire me and outsource as much work to "other professionals"? Let me call Georgia power and see if that, not money, will pay my light bill.

DALPA's job as a union is to keep as many DALPA jobs around as they can. Whats the point of paying dues if the union wants to give your job to ASA or Air France?
 
futureualpilot
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:58 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 34):
Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 32):
As the regional staffing gets tighter and tighter, they will eventually be forced to move that flying to mainline. I'd rather have that flying be real mainline rather than mini mainline, wouldn't you?

Well from a personal perspective I'm torn, I have many many friends who are regional FOs, and my first experience as an airline employee (quite recently) was an internship at a certain large ERJ operator. So I could lean either way on any given day.

I'm a regional pilot, and I would much, MUCH rather see the flying I do and that all regionals do flown by mainline pilots on a mainline seniority list. The two jobs aren't even close in terms of overall quality of life.
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flyDTW1992
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RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 37):
I'm a regional pilot, and I would much, MUCH rather see the flying I do and that all regionals do flown by mainline pilots on a mainline seniority list. The two jobs aren't even close in terms of overall quality of life.

I understand that, I've had discussions about it with pilots on both sides; but as a young aviation professional with friends across the country who need pilot jobs and obviously can't walk into a 737 or A320 cockpit as soon as they hit ATP minimums, I see a need for both. And of course, as a management major, I see a business case for both, though of course that's not to say I think the current setup is ideal.
Now you're flying smart
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 26):
Of COURSE scope clauses protect pilots from other professional pilots; that is entirely the point. They protect one airline's pilots from being undercut by pilots working at other airlines. For those of us working in the industry long enough, we remember the glory days of RJ expansion, mainline career stagnation, and furloughs while other professional pilots queued up to take our jobs. It is informed and experienced self-interest to seek not to repeat that cycle. Fortunately now most regional pilots will have the opportunity to fly for mainline operators should they wish to. Like I said, pay rates were not the big issue here from what I do know, and as always the Devil is in the details, and people who don't grasp the details can't grasp the entirety of the situation.

Well said as always!
Chicks dig winglets.
 
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northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
This is why I divested airline stocks ASAP. Sure it's a great time for airlines. But ALPA will try to take it all. Just like they did before.

No doubt that ALPA is usually greedy but judging by this last TA, they didn't even try. We'll have to see what happens next.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 20):
Now DL has a choice. They have huge issues with fulfilling the JV terms under the existing pilot contract, they are running very lean from a staffing perspective in some categories and their "regional partners" can't find enough pilots to man their a/c. Does DL play tough? If so, the pilots can enjoy the current contract with the terms superior in many ways to that which was proposed. If DL is smart, they'll compromise on several key issues and likely win a fast approval.

This is what will happen. They'll throw a few bones (It won't be JV flying, I promise you) to ALPA to get the contract passed. Round 2 here we come.

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 21):
What DL really needs to worry about rather than messing around with scope is paying its regionals better...If they want the "mini mainline" product out of their CR9 and E175 operators, they need to ensure the carriers have the money to pay their crews a reasonable wage (and in turn employ enough pilots in the first place) and maintain and equip their aircraft and cabins to mainline standards.

   They can't keep paying for a Geo and expecting a Mercedes. The ExpressJet operation especially is a joke.

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 22):
Also, what's the word on the airplane orders that were predicated on the pilot contract? Likely to be thrown out the window or immediately worked into negotiations again?

Oh they're still coming.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 25):
The 190s are coming anyway folks. The 50 seat regionals will retire anyway (no pilots to fly them). There were a ton of misdirection plays in the negotiation and wording of the TA. It's business and this is how things are done.

  

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 27):
What likely won't happen now are the additional Embraer orders that DL was planning. DL was supposed to order additional new E-190s on top of those being leased from Boeing, as well as some E-175s for Connection carriers.

Either they don't take any E190s at all or we take the 25 Air Canada birds and then order more. It wouldn't be cost effective to only operate 25.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 29):
Somehow...as an outsider.. I gather from the rather mild comments that most here see the agreement being modified and evidentially passing. Two to one is definitely a failure, but I have seen a lot more lopsided failures.

   This is how you negotiate. Delta will throw a few bones towards ALPA and it'll pass.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 32):
As the regional staffing gets tighter and tighter, they will eventually be forced to move that flying to mainline. I'd rather have that flying be real mainline rather than mini mainline, wouldn't you?

Absolutely.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 37):
I'm a regional pilot, and I would much, MUCH rather see the flying I do and that all regionals do flown by mainline pilots on a mainline seniority list. The two jobs aren't even close in terms of overall quality of life.

Ouch. Straight from a regional pilot.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 33):
a group that played a big roll in delivering the airline from the brink of going out of business to the most profitable and smooth running airline around.

Oh, yeah......I remember that.......during bankruptcy, many of the more militant pilots were willing to throw some of the other, un-unionized work groups under the bus, if they didn't get what they wanted out of the BK.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5400
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:59 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 41):

Oh, yeah......I remember that.......during bankruptcy, many of the more militant pilots were willing to throw some of the other, un-unionized work groups under the bus, if they didn't get what they wanted out of the BK.

pretty to say that when you still have your pension....





and they don't. Just sayin....
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:03 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 41):

Oh, yeah......I remember that.......during bankruptcy, many of the more militant pilots were willing to throw some of the other, un-unionized work groups under the bus, if they didn't get what they wanted out of the BK.

why should union groups put your welfare before theirs? You don't pay dues but you demand they represent your interests?
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1063
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:25 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 43):
why should union groups put your welfare before theirs? You don't pay dues but you demand they represent your interests?

As a non-union airline employee (and admitted newbie to the industry), I don't think anyone's asking them to put our welfare before theirs, but treating other employees who are also vital to the success of your organization like garbage just because they aren't in your union is a pretty sad thing to do. Now, I'm not familiar with any real life scenarios where this occurred, but it certainly sounds ugly.
Now you're flying smart
 
sxf24
Posts: 1099
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:36 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 27):

What likely won't happen now are the additional Embraer orders that DL was planning. DL was supposed to order additional new E-190s on top of those being leased from Boeing, as well as some E-175s for Connection carriers.

I think the Boeing deal is off. I heard Delta put a condition of a new TA by July. Boeing can probably place the aircraft elsewhere now and Delta may not want them if a new TA makes them less economical.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:39 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 41):
Oh, yeah......I remember that.......during bankruptcy, many of the more militant pilots were willing to throw some of the other, un-unionized work groups under the bus, if they didn't get what they wanted out of the BK.

I get the emotional response- remember that negotiations under pressure like that, they will present the most extreme case possible to set themselves up for the best possible outcome. It didn't really work, but it did tick you off... move on from that. The pilots active at that time are still not to not pre bankruptcy payrates and no longer have pensions. Work rules, healthcare, and so on are way below and not even close to recovered on this TA.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:50 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 44):

As a non-union airline employee (and admitted newbie to the industry), I don't think anyone's asking them to put our welfare before theirs, but treating other employees who are also vital to the success of your organization like garbage just because they aren't in your union is a pretty sad thing to do. Now, I'm not familiar with any real life scenarios where this occurred, but it certainly sounds ugly.

It is not treating non union employees like garbage, it is simply making sure union employees are all they are caring about. It is what they are paid for. To represent the union. Don't be mad at them that executives treat workers like garbage.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5400
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:52 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 45):

I think the Boeing deal is off. I heard Delta put a condition of a new TA by July. Boeing can probably place the aircraft elsewhere now and Delta may not want them if a new TA makes them less economical.

always remember with rumors like this.....

sometimes they are true but most of the time its pushing fear. Again, Delta didn't agree to take the E90 if they couldn't operate them economically. Same deal with the 717.




and if they did agree to that, then some bean counter should be looking for a new job, IMO.
 
Max Q
Posts: 8748
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: DL Pilot TA Voted Down

Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:42 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
This is why I divested airline stocks ASAP. Sure it's a great time for airlines. But ALPA will try to take it all. Just like they did before. Never underestimate pilot belief that they deserve 400-500k. They do believe it.

What incredible nonsense, how about giving us an example where ALPA has 'taken it all'


Pilots deserve every penny they make, you have no idea the sacrifices made to get to an Airline Pilot position and you better be grateful for their dedication next time you fly, their devotion to their profession is the reason we have such an outstanding safety record in this country.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg

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