DL Pilot TA Voted Down

n562wn · Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:40 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 49):
What incredible nonsense, how about giving us an example where ALPA has 'taken it all'

Pilots deserve every penny they make, you have no idea the sacrifices made to get to an Airline Pilot position and you better be grateful for their dedication next time you fly, their devotion to their profession is the reason we have such an outstanding safety record in this country.

Some people will never understand this and like to put our salary on trial. I've yet to see a pilot do the same to anyone else's salary.

deltal1011man · Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:57 am

Quoting n562wn (Reply 50):
I've yet to see a pilot do the same to anyone else's salary.

I have had plenty of pilots tell me how unimportant I am("oh they can just outsource MX to someone who makes 8 bucks an hour"). Most pilots are good people. Some think they are God's gift to earth though. (but you have the chance for that issue with everyone)

n562wn · Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:23 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 51):
I have had plenty of pilots tell me how unimportant I am("oh they can just outsource MX to someone who makes 8 bucks an hour"). Most pilots are good people. Some think they are God's gift to earth though. (but you have the chance for that issue with everyone)

That's unfortunate to say the least. It's hard for me to fathom a situation where a pilot would say such a thing to anyone, but as you said hinted at, there are 1%ers in any given profession.

Flighty · Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:58 am

Quoting n562wn (Reply 52):
That's unfortunate to say the least. It's hard for me to fathom a situation where a pilot would say such a thing to anyone, but as you said hinted at, there are 1%ers in any given profession.

Quoting n562wn (Reply 50):
Some people will never understand this and like to put our salary on trial. I've yet to see a pilot do the same to anyone else's salary.

Have you ever read the official communications of pilot's unions to the press and companies, during adversarial negotiations? These are salad days right now. There will be mission creep. Then, a crisis will happen. At that point, there will be a scramble for resources. Pilot wage premiums represent an above-market dividend for their power. They will argue to keep their pay, as we would expect, using all the tactics available, blaming the CEO for making over $1 million, etc.

Union negotiations are all the same, when the SHTF.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 49):
What incredible nonsense, how about giving us an example where ALPA has 'taken it all'

Ok, let's think about the bankruptcies. EA, NW, US, DL, CO, UA and AA just for starters. Apologies if they are not all ALPA. Maybe I am way off base here. My own experience was that ALPA wanted the corporations' money to fund pension expectations, work rules and layoff protections. Money that wasn't there. An amount greater than the companies had. This resulted in the companies all failing. In many cases, shareholders lost all equity.

[Edited 2015-07-11 04:59:36]

Web500sjc · Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 53):
My own experience was that ALPA wanted the corporations' money to fund pension expectations, work rules and layoff protections.

You mean provide the compensation the companies agreed too in the contract with the pilots?

You may call it greedy, but the pilots and the company had come to a mutual agreement under no strife.

Minor point AA is APA not ALPA, they left ALPA in the 60s.

wingnutmn · Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 53):
Ok, let's think about the bankruptcies. EA, NW, US, DL, CO, UA and AA just for starters. Apologies if they are not all ALPA. Maybe I am way off base here. My own experience was that ALPA wanted the corporations' money to fund pension expectations, work rules and layoff protections. Money that wasn't there. An amount greater than the companies had. This resulted in the companies all failing. In many cases, shareholders lost all equity.

So, as you have so eloquently stated above here, where is your anger in management for negotiating those contracts to the pilots that made the companies fail? Could it not have been due to terrible management? Or greedy executives? Maybe it was due to deregulation and the company couldn't compete? But blaming the failure of a company on the pilots is pure nonsense and shows your actual lack of business knowledge and possIby your frustration with losses to shareholders.

As a pilot, my first concern when at work is the safety of my passengers, not how this choice will affect Joe blow shareholder. When my union negotiates my contract, I expect them to get everything the company will pay for in it. The company knows their number, and I want to get every dollar of that number.

Wingnut

bobnwa · Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:19 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 47):
Don't be mad at them that executives treat workers like garbage.

Gross exaggeration. Exactly what employees are being treated as garbage by Delta? It certainly doesn't include any pilots

EMB170 · Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:52 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 40):
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 20):
Now DL has a choice. They have huge issues with fulfilling the JV terms under the existing pilot contract, they are running very lean from a staffing perspective in some categories and their "regional partners" can't find enough pilots to man their a/c. Does DL play tough? If so, the pilots can enjoy the current contract with the terms superior in many ways to that which was proposed. If DL is smart, they'll compromise on several key issues and likely win a fast approval.

This is what will happen. They'll throw a few bones (It won't be JV flying, I promise you) to ALPA to get the contract passed. Round 2 here we come.

What are the concerns with the JV, if I may ask? Is DL trying to give a larger percentage of transatlantic flying to AF/KL?

Was DL not required under the terms of the agreement to provide 50% of transatlantic capacity, and is DL attempting to change that? I thought that DL was more profitable than AF, in any event. Is this not the case?

delta2ual · Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:00 pm

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 57):
What are the concerns with the JV, if I may ask? Is DL trying to give a larger percentage of transatlantic flying to AF/KL?

Was DL not required under the terms of the agreement to provide 50% of transatlantic capacity, and is DL attempting to change that? I thought that DL was more profitable than AF, in any event. Is this not the case?

From what I understand, DL has not been compliant with the JV agreement.

usflyguy · Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 17):
I'm happy to see that the pilots saw through it and voted down the multiple considerable concessions for modest pay gains.

The WN flight attendants will be right behind the DL pilots in voting down a TA.

INFINITI329 · Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 40):
No doubt that ALPA is usually greedy but judging by this last TA, they didn't even try. We'll have to see what happens next.

Maybe is time for DL membership to dumb ALPA and form their own in house union.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 59):
The WN flight attendants will be right behind the DL pilots in voting down a TA.

For the rumblings I am hearing this might be very well the case.

Web500sjc · Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 57):

What are the concerns with the JV, if I may ask? Is DL trying to give a larger percentage of transatlantic flying to AF/KL?

Yes/No

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 57):
Was DL not required under the terms of the agreement to provide 50% of transatlantic capacity,

The TA would have changed how 50% capacity was defined. The current contract defines capacity as EASK; “EASK” means equivalent available seat kilometers. The TA defined capacity as Block Hours.

Since DL's average transatlantic aircraft is smaller than AF/KL, EASK would mean that DL has to fly either more flights or longer flights to make up the difference in Seat Kilometers (an 1xA380=2xA332=3xB757 on the same route). Block hours would just count the time a DL aircraft is flying transatlantic vs the time a AF/KL is flying transatlantic (A380=A332=B757 on the same route).

It all depends on what exactly 50% is measuring.

highflier92660 · Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:36 pm

Could someone familiar with the wording in the TA regarding the scope clause please post the specifics. Was there a raise in gross weight and passenger accommodation in essence to cover the upcoming Embraer 175-E2 series aircraft? If the regionals are permitted to fly an 88-passenger/ 97,731 lb. GTOW aircraft with close to a 2,000 nm rage, that is perilously close to the definition of "mission creep."

PGNCS · Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:13 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 53):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 49):What incredible nonsense, how about giving us an example where ALPA has 'taken it all'
Ok, let's think about the bankruptcies. EA, NW, US, DL, CO, UA and AA just for starters. Apologies if they are not all ALPA. Maybe I am way off base here. My own experience was that ALPA wanted the corporations' money to fund pension expectations, work rules and layoff protections.

What experience are you speaking of given that you list your occupation as "virtual harpist"?

Certainly poor management had much more to do with any of those bankruptcies than the compensation in any contract.

MIflyer12 · Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 62):
Was there a raise in gross weight and passenger accommodation in essence to cover the upcoming Embraer 175-E2 series aircraft? If the regionals are permitted to fly an 88-passenger/ 97,731 lb. GTOW aircraft with close to a 2,000 nm rage, that is perilously close to the definition of "mission creep."

The 76-seat max per DCI aircraft wasn't changed in the defeated agreement. That would likely leave the MRJ uneconomical, anyway; maybe not kill the 175-E2. I don't recall a MTOW change for DCI aircraft in the Negotiator's Notepad.

[Edited 2015-07-11 12:03:42]

flyDTW1992 · Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 64):
The 76-seat max per DCI aircraft wasn't changed in the defeated agreement. That would likely leave the MRJ uneconomical, anyway; maybe not kill the 175-E2. I don't recall a MTOW change for DCI aircraft in the Negotiator's Notepad.

Is management still interested in the E2 and/or MRJ with just 76 seats? Would they go for an MTOW increase without a seat increase? I know there are already orders on the books at Trans States and Skywest holdings, and Republic/Shuttle wouldn't mind getting their hands on some E2s.

Web500sjc · Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 65):
Is management still interested in the E2 and/or MRJ with just 76 seats? Would they go for an MTOW increase without a seat increase?

I am sure DLs management is interested in the E2 or MRJ, as long as the aircraft is operated at a regional. Currently Section 1.B.46 limits all commercial aircraft operated Under DL connection to 86,000 lbs. In the current climate it is unlikely that Mainline pilots would allow scope (seats or MTOW) to increase, its something that will can never be taken back.

flyDTW1992 · Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 66):
I am sure DLs management is interested in the E2 or MRJ, as long as the aircraft is operated at a regional. Currently Section 1.B.46 limits all commercial aircraft operated Under DL connection to 86,000 lbs. In the current climate it is unlikely that Mainline pilots would allow scope (seats or MTOW) to increase, its something that will can never be taken back.

I have to imagine it will have to change eventually, even if it's not for another 7-10 years when "classic" E-Jets start tiring out. At some point they'll have to buy the new jets if they want to continue regional service.

deltal1011man · Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:43 am

Quoting n562wn (Reply 52):

That's unfortunate to say the least. It's hard for me to fathom a situation where a pilot would say such a thing to anyone, but as you said hinted at, there are 1%ers in any given profession.

it happens. I'm sure you pilots deal with a-hole AMTs all the time too. Its the people, not the job, IMO.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 53):
My own experience was that ALPA wanted the corporations' money to fund pension expectations, work rules and layoff protections. Money that wasn't there. An amount greater than the companies had. This resulted in the companies all failing. In many cases, shareholders lost all equity.

So what you are telling me is the company doesn't have to follow the contract but the pilots do?

How is ALPA at fault for.....well understanding how a contract works?

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 57):
Is DL trying to give a larger percentage of transatlantic flying to AF/KL?

yes.

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 57):
Was DL not required under the terms of the agreement to provide 50% of transatlantic capacity, and is DL attempting to change that? I

yes they are. They are pretty far out of compliance and with the change to block hours as well as going from 50% share to, IIRC 48%, the company would have pencil whipped themselves into compliance. (costing employees more TATL capacity and more stagnation for the middle of the pilot group)

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 63):
Certainly poor management had much more to do with any of those bankruptcies than the compensation in any contract.

What? management was at fault?
PGNCS what are you doing?! its labors fault. Its always labors fault. Evil stupid labor.

Management should never be questioned!

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 62):
Was there a raise in gross weight and passenger accommodation in essence to cover the upcoming Embraer 175-E2 series aircraft?

no. The rejected TA kept DCI MTOW at 86K.

I imagine DALPA is waiting to give that scope concession on contact 2018.....

flyDTW1992 · Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:02 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 68):
I imagine DALPA is waiting to give that scope concession on contact 2018.....

That probably makes sense in relation to what I just mentioned above. Once the MRJs and E2s start becoming the go-to replacement for older CR7s/9s and E70/75s, I presume they'll likely have to budge on the MTOW, even if the 76 seat limit stays the same.

deltal1011man · Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:09 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 69):
That probably makes sense in relation to what I just mentioned above. Once the MRJs and E2s start becoming the go-to replacement for older CR7s/9s and E70/75s, I presume they'll likely have to budge on the MTOW, even if the 76 seat limit stays the same.

not if they are smart......

737tdi · Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:27 am

It is all BS IMO. The mechanics should make the most money (mechanic speaking here). Can a mechanic fly an airplane? Yes. Can a pilot troubleshoot or repair an airplane? Big maybe? Does not matter, let the pilots settle theirs and then the mechs.. Come on Delta, rock with upgrade.

Max Q · Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:46 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 51):
I have had plenty of pilots tell me how unimportant I am("oh they can just outsource MX to someone who makes 8 bucks an hour"). Most pilots are good people. Some think they are God's gift to earth though.

Yes, plenty of egotistical Pilots, Mechanics too !

Quoting Flighty (Reply 53):
Ok, let's think about the bankruptcies. EA, NW, US, DL, CO, UA and AA just for starters. Apologies if they are not all ALPA. Maybe I am way off base here. My own experience was that ALPA wanted the corporations' money to fund pension expectations, work rules and layoff protections. Money that wasn't there. An amount greater than the companies had. This resulted in the companies all failing. In many cases, shareholders lost all equity.

Those bankruptcies had nothing to do with ALPA, everything to do with poor management.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 71):
Can a mechanic fly an airplane? Yes.

I'd like to see that

XFSUgimpLB41X · Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:58 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 70):
not if they are smart......

Bingo... if they want them, they can be flown by mainline pilots.

northwestEWR · Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:00 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 73):

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 70):
not if they are smart......

Bingo... if they want them, they can be flown by mainline pilots.

They may not have a choice if the regional pilot shortage continues to grow. It wouldn't be that much of a stretch from the E2-175 to the E90/717.

DiamondFlyer · Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:07 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 74):
They may not have a choice if the regional pilot shortage continues to grow

If they would spend the money, the regional airlines would have zero problem attracting pilots.

-DiamondFlyer

flyDTW1992 · Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:08 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 74):
They may not have a choice if the regional pilot shortage continues to grow. It wouldn't be that much of a stretch from the E2-175 to the E90/717.

Is it at all possible to make money with mainline crews and 80 seats?

flyDTW1992 · Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:12 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 76):
If they would spend the money, the regional airlines would have zero problem attracting pilots.

I posted something along those lines somewhere above. Mainlines want a mini-mainline experience from their regionals? Stop paying the same kind of rates Saab 340 and Metroliner commuter flights got and give these E170/CR9 operators what they need to keep up.

If they don't want to do that? By all means, buy some E175-E2s or MRJs and fly them mainline. Just stop the madness one way or another.

XFSUgimpLB41X · Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:32 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 76):
Is it at all possible to make money with mainline crews and 80 seats?

They did for many many years- that only changed in the 2000's with the RJ bubble. Mainline crew labor costs now are not near the chunk of expense that it used to be.

deltal1011man · Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:37 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 72):

I'd like to see that

errr

Would you really? I know plenty of mechanics that are also private pilots.

(not saying that I agree, I also know plenty of pilots who have A&Ps)

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 71):

It is all BS IMO. The mechanics should make the most money (mechanic speaking here). Can a mechanic fly an airplane? Yes. Can a pilot troubleshoot or repair an airplane? Big maybe? Does not matter, let the pilots settle theirs and then the mechs.. Come on Delta, rock with upgrade.

lets just make this fair.... how about pilots and mechanics make the most money.

hundred thousand for you
hundred thousand for me

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 73):

Bingo... if they want them, they can be flown by mainline pilots.

exactly.

or they should at least be traded for a hell of a more than 8/6/3/3

flyDTW1992 · Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:42 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 78):
They did for many many years- that only changed in the 2000's with the RJ bubble. Mainline crew labor costs now are not near the chunk of expense that it used to be.

I guess that does makes sense; and of course an E2 would presumably be much more fuel efficient and easy to maintain than a DC-9-10.

flyDTW1992 · Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:44 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 79):
lets just make this fair.... how about pilots and mechanics make the most money.

hundred thousand for you
hundred thousand for me

Dispatchers may have a few words to say about that arrangement what with their whole "sharing operational control" thing...

DiamondFlyer · Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:11 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 80):
I guess that does makes sense; and of course an E2 would presumably be much more fuel efficient and easy to maintain than a DC-9-10.

Airlines are still able to make money flying the DC-9-15's, it just take the right market to make it happen.

-DiamondFlyer

KD5MDK · Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:28 am

There's always the option of buying new E175s too.

XFSUgimpLB41X · Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:40 am

Apparently management's threat was that they would not buy 737-900s and the ERJ-190s if this deal isn't signed and instead pour money into CRJ-200 refurbishment.

So let me get this straight, you're threatening the pilot group with not buying 737's that are 757 replacements (lower paying, too) as well as pouring money into an airplane that both your customers hate and you can't staff nor run reliably?

If that's a threat, I like this game!

[Edited 2015-07-11 21:41:20]

northwestEWR · Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 81):
Dispatchers may have a few words to say about that arrangement what with their whole "sharing operational control" thing...

By that logic.... Seeing as dispatchers usually share the operational authority of not just ONE flight at a time but dozens and dozens during a single shift.... They should be paid the very highest of all. But it doesn't work that way.

Maintenance should be well compensated but realistically the level of training and expense that goes into that training or the job's responsibility is not at the level of a pilot nor the dispatcher. Of course you could argue that without maintenance you couldn't fly planes but that argument also holds true for the poor rampers loading hundreds of bags in the 100' heat in ATL everyday.

737tdi · Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:33 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 72):
I'd like to see that

I never said I was good at it. LOL. I just said I could do it. I have a few thousand hours flying so don't be so quick to judge. I quit because of boredom. It wasn't fun any longer and I lost the desire.

Max Q · Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:33 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 79):
errr

Would you really? I know plenty of mechanics that are also private pilots.

I'm sure you do but that's not what was said, this is:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 71):
Can a mechanic fly an airplane? Yes.

No mention of any 'piloting qualifications' there ! In fact it'simplied that just being a mechanic will allow
you to fly an aircraft so try choosing your words a little more carefully !

And FYI there is a big difference between having a private pilot license and flying a transport category jet for a major airline.

I can change a tire on my car it doesn't mean I can change an RB211 on a 757 !

[Edited 2015-07-11 22:38:27]

deltal1011man · Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:37 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 84):
Apparently management's threat was that they would not buy 737-900s and the ERJ-190s if this deal isn't signed and instead pour money into CRJ-200 refurbishment.

ha. Okay.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 84):
So let me get this straight, you're threatening the pilot group with not buying 737's that are 757 replacements (lower paying, too) as well as pouring money into an airplane that both your customers hate and you can't staff nor run reliably?

again, management has very little leverage this time around. FUD is about it.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 85):
Of course you could argue that without maintenance you couldn't fly planes but that argument also holds true for the poor rampers loading hundreds of bags in the 100' heat in ATL everyday.

errr no it really doesn't though.

You literally can't fly a plane if its broken. You legally can't fly without FAs. You literally can't fly without pilots.
You can fly a plane without bags. If you need bags, as the world is showing us, you can pay pretty much anyone 8 bucks an hour to throw em on the plane for you. Or do like Delta and give them 8 bucks and let them fly for free.

Oh and FYI mechanics get to crawl into the hot ass bins all the time.

Of course the biggest reason why pilots get much better than the rest of the groups isn't importance, education or any of that. They have simply done a much much better job sticking together and being more militant than other labor groups.

Okay done with this my group is better than yours crap. Just playing managements game. We are all important.

737tdi · Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:43 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 79):
lets just make this fair.... how about pilots and mechanics make the most money.

hundred thousand for you
hundred thousand for me

I have no problem with that. The guys at the pointy end should make a little more but come on, we deserve a piece of the pie.. I am tired of being left out. I won't be this time. F/A's making more then me is sickening IMO. Everyone of them started as a civilian. I have 35 years of career invested. I am sorry but F/A's are below me but the company seems to think they aren't. Give me my industry leading contract. I will settle for less but don't lowball me. That is what is happening. 2% pay raise? Not happening bud.

flyDTW1992 · Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:44 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 88):
You literally can't fly a plane if its broken. You legally can't fly without FAs. You literally can't fly without pilots.
You can fly a plane without bags. If you need bags, as the world is showing us, you can pay pretty much anyone 8 bucks an hour to throw em on the plane for you. Or do like Delta and give them 8 bucks and let them fly for free.

True, true...That's why I've always enjoyed being on the deicing crew--basically a ramper, but doing one particular task far more important to safety, and that IS required to be done in order to fly. But as a young industry member I think it's at least a nice idea to remember that all of us have a role to play and without it all working together it'd fall apart. Even if not each and every job appears to be "vital."

737tdi · Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:59 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 87):
And FYI there is a big difference between having a private pilot license and flying a transport category jet for a major airline.

I can change a tire on my car it doesn't mean I can change an RB211 on a 757 !

I am going to kid you here. Do you have a license to change the tire on that car. No, you do not. Apples to apples my friend. It is no where near the same. I just changed a flap track on a 737 a few hours ago. Would you like to give that a try? All flaps off, measure the shims, treat with the proper solvents and primers, re-install a new one with the proper angle??? Don't take us for granted. I know what I am doing because of my experience and I take extreme pride in what I do. I have probably been flying as long as you, I just never wanted what you wanted. I obtained my PP in 1978 and moved up from there.

delta747tlv · Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:06 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 89):

So your better than everyone, eh. I'm sure your winning personality will keep the passengers coming back.

737tdi · Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:41 am

Quoting delta747tlv (Reply 92):
So your better than everyone, eh. I'm sure your winning personality will keep the passengers coming back.

Nope, not better then anybody. It is just reality. I do things that very few people do, I care.

EA CO AS · Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:28 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 93):
It is just reality. I do things that very few people do

So do outsourced maintenance shops overseas - and generally for a whole lot less.

Just sayin'.

par13del · Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:36 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 88):
Of course the biggest reason why pilots get much better than the rest of the groups isn't importance, education or any of that. They have simply done a much much better job sticking together and being more militant than other labor groups.

So the benefit of a union, if the other groups followed suit the situation would be much better, management would not be able to play one group off against the other.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 91):
Do you have a license to change the tire on that car. No, you do not.

The key to the point, mechanics have to be qualified just like pilots, meaning that they also have to go to school.
Indeed engineering schools can cost more than pilot schools, the big difference is the accumulation of flying / working hours to get hired with a decent wage.
Much more job options exist for mechanics / engineers to start working and gaining experience versus pilots, its the luck of the draw but the group has ensured that it is accounted for in their work environment.

nwadeicer · Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 94):

"outsourced"

Airline management's wet dream.

reltney · Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:54 pm

This is great and indisputable . Also, great job Delta pilots!

Things to remember about compensation in the airline. Btw I am an airline pilot and was a mechanic for a different airline.

Dispatchers and mechanics are vital. The airliner cannot leave the ground without them. FAs, same thing.

I have thousands of hours of flying with out mechanics and dispatchers on board. How many hours of flying do they have without a pilot on board?

If the plane cracks up, 100% chance the mechanic and dispatcher explain their role in the flight in person. Pilot might be 6 feet under and doesn't get that chance. The concord accident is a great example. The mechanic mistake left the metal on the runway. He could explain his actions in court. The engineer shut down a thrust producing engine. He is dead with the rest of the plane and pax.

With that said, remember the application you filled out when you applied for work with the company? I checked the box for pilot. If you wanted that pay, you could too.

I am a pilot, I envy no one . I LOVE what I do. I am not trying to offend anyone but don't care if I do. I will defend my profession. I work hard to be the best at what I do and I have fun. There is NO stress in the job. It is relaxing and I laugh and have a ball every moment I am in the cockpit. Delta pilots have the right to defend their profession and I voted no and proud of it.

Keep up the great dialogue.
Cheers

usflyguy · Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 89):
F/A's making more then me is sickening IMO. Everyone of them started as a civilian. I have 35 years of career invested. I am sorry but F/A's are below me but the company seems to think they aren't.

Lol. I'm sure you are just a pleasant person that would be a marvelous flight attendant. I mean, if you are better than flight attendants, you can do their job better than them too, right?

flyfree727 · Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:45 pm

delete delete delete

[Edited 2015-07-12 14:52:54]

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