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jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4325
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 47):

The question is not why there is so little ORD-HNL, the question is will it last? Hawaii can be reached from the west coast with 737s now but ORD-HNL ties up a couple of 772s. UA dropped it for a time after the DC-10 retirement because only their 772s and 744s had the range and they did not want to have to commit aircraft that are potentially more valuable on international long haul routes. Since ORD was PMUA's largest hub they eventually reversed their decision but now that there are flights to HNL from PMCO hubs that are larger (IAH) or in bigger cities (EWR), ORD is not as important as it once was. It could go the way of the short lived IAD-HNL route.

Yes, of course it will last. That route has been continuously operated by someone for ages and will continue to be. It only ties up a single 777, of which UA now has 9 for this purpose, and soon to be 19 domestically configured. Also, it could have easily been operated by a 767 over the years with plenty of range. As said, IAD has remained for years.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
ripcordd
Posts: 1082
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RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:32 am

AA has 3x DFW-HNL on Sat's and 2 DFW-HNL every other day and 2X DFW-OGG and nothing on ORD-HNL both routes only tie up 1 plane and DFW- is only 450 miles shorter with a large base of customers in ORD I see them missing the boat here I prefer AA but I do take UA because of the non-stop
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4325
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RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:49 am

It was probably smart of them to move the ORD-HNL flight to DFW if they didn't want to add another 767 to Hawaii service. 1 daily 767 was simply too small for DFW without any competition. ORD would've worked just fine, but beefing up DFW was the better option.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
afcjets
Posts: 3561
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RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting adamblang (Reply 5):
I reject the premise of the question. With 344 nonstop seats every day plus

What do you interpret the premise of his question to be? At one time both UA and AA each had two daily nonstop DC10s ORD-HNL, approximately 1200 daily nonstop seats. Before AA entered, UA alone had 2 747s and one DC10, approximately 1000 daily seats. At least domestically speaking, I think asking if a market can support a nonstop flight or more of them is rarely based on the premise that not enough connection opportunities exist.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:02 pm

Just to add to this discussion... Hawaii is so much more than just another beach destination. Those who haven't been just can't understand. The climate is different from the Caribbean. The culture is different. The ethos and feel of just about everything is so much better in Hawaii IMO.
Great Lakes, great life.
 
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compensateme
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RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 54):
Just to add to this discussion... Hawaii is so much more than just another beach destination. Those who haven't been just can't understand. The climate is different from the Caribbean. The culture is different. The ethos and feel of just about everything is so much better in Hawaii IMO.

This forum is notorious for attempting to make Hawaii something it's not. Hawaii IS a beach market destination. Yes, Hawaii has a unique culture, but so do each of the beach markets in Mexico & the Caribbean. Yes, Hawaii has oodles of activities outside the beach, but so do each of the beach markets in Mexico & the Caribbean. Yes, Hawaii has its own unique/exclusive activities, but so do each of the beach markets in Mexico & the Caribbean.

The fantasy resorts within Hawaii are beautiful but are manufactured, man-made resorts comprised of plants, animals and scenery not native to the islands... and even if you get a decent room rate, they're horrendously expensive. Resort fees, parking fees, in-room amenity fees, etc. Want to eat? Expect to pay at least $30 for a breakfast buffet, $25 for a hamburger, $14-$18 per cocktail/frozen drink, $30 for a pizza, $3-$4 for a soda, etc. Dinner for two will often run well over $100 with drinks, for very mediocre food. The Na Pali Coast is one of the most beautiful places on Earth, but seeing it requires a boat -- you can't easily rent one, so you'll have to do a tour that will cost at least $100 per person.

Alternatively, from the East, flights to Mexico & the Caribbean are half the price as those to Hawaii and the lesser travel time yields an extra days' vacation. Booked in advance, mid-upper range all-inclusive like Dreams can be had for less than $400/night all-in for a family of four (and less than $200 during the shoulder season).

Hawaii is best enjoyed if you stay at a condohotel, cook most of your own meals, and spend your time sightseeing. You'll still pay a vacation premium, of course. But the reality is... these types of vacations appeal only to a small niche market. Hence why Mexico/Caribbean continues to soar in popularity particularly among Gen Y.

IMO, Hawaii is simply a poor value. Until the past decade, many hotels (especially on Oahu) hadn't been renovated in over 20 years but still charged a premium. This is because of high land cost (rent) compounded with the fact that beach markets are still price sensitive destinations... look how many luxury properties throughout the islands experienced financial problems in the past few years. Hilton bought the Waikoli Village for pennies on the dollar, but most of the rooms still have original carpet & furnishings from when the property first opened in 1988.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2589
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:28 pm

Quoting COMPENSATEME (Reply 55):
Quoting COMPENSATEME (Reply 55):
This forum is notorious for attempting to make Hawaii something it's not. Hawaii IS a beach market destination. Yes, Hawaii has a unique culture, but so do each of the beach markets in Mexico & the Caribbean. Yes, Hawaii has oodles of activities outside the beach, but so do each of the beach markets in Mexico & the Caribbean. Yes, Hawaii has its own unique/exclusive activities, but so do each of the beach markets in Mexico & the Caribbean.

The fantasy resorts within Hawaii are beautiful but are manufactured, man-made resorts comprised of plants, animals and scenery not native to the islands... and even if you get a decent room rate, they're horrendously expensive. Resort fees, parking fees, in-room amenity fees, etc. Want to eat? Expect to pay at least $30 for a breakfast buffet, $25 for a hamburger, $14-$18 per cocktail/frozen drink, $30 for a pizza, $3-$4 for a soda, etc. Dinner for two will often run well over $100 with drinks, for very mediocre food. The Na Pali Coast is one of the most beautiful places on Earth, but seeing it requires a boat -- you can't easily rent one, so you'll have to do a tour that will cost at least $100 per person.

Alternatively, from the East, flights to Mexico & the Caribbean are half the price as those to Hawaii and the lesser travel time yields an extra days' vacation. Booked in advance, mid-upper range all-inclusive like Dreams can be had for less than $400/night all-in for a family of four (and less than $200 during the shoulder season).

Hawaii is best enjoyed if you stay at a condohotel, cook most of your own meals, and spend your time sightseeing. You'll still pay a vacation premium, of course. But the reality is... these types of vacations appeal only to a small niche market. Hence why Mexico/Caribbean continues to soar in popularity particularly among Gen Y.

IMO, Hawaii is simply a poor value. Until the past decade, many hotels (especially on Oahu) hadn't been renovated in over 20 years but still charged a premium. This is because of high land cost (rent) compounded with the fact that beach markets are still price sensitive destinations... look how many luxury properties throughout the islands experienced financial problems in the past few years. Hilton bought the Waikoli Village for pennies on the dollar, but most of the rooms still have original carpet & furnishings from when the property first opened in 1988.

I've been to Hawaii (all over Oahu) and several Caribbean islands. There is just simply no comparison. But YMMV...
Great Lakes, great life.
 
S75752
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:32 pm

Worth noting, ORD-HNL and much east coast to HNL (or other Hawaii routes) overfly the dense SFO and LAX - Hawaii routes anyways, so there's not a whole lot lost by stopping there.
 
chicawgo
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 47):
The question is not why there is so little ORD-HNL, the question is will it last? Hawaii can be reached from the west coast with 737s now but ORD-HNL ties up a couple of 772s. UA dropped it for a time after the DC-10 retirement because only their 772s and 744s had the range and they did not want to have to commit aircraft that are potentially more valuable on international long haul routes. Since ORD was PMUA's largest hub they eventually reversed their decision but now that there are flights to HNL from PMCO hubs that are larger (IAH) or in bigger cities (EWR), ORD is not as important as it once was. It could go the way of the short lived IAD-HNL route.

Hahaha. Thanks for the laughs! A perfect example of a.net at its worst. Blatantly false facts intermingled with purely subjective assertions culminating in completely false answers.

-As has been mentioned, ORD-HNL does NOT take up 2 planes.
-IAH is smaller than ORD in some metrics and very close to even in the others
-What does NY being bigger than Chicago have to do with anything? ORD will still always be a better connection point to HI than EWR.
-As has been mentioned, your reports of IAD-HNL's death are greatly exaggerated...
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 58):
-What does NY being bigger than Chicago have to do with anything? ORD will still always be a better connection point to HI than EWR.

The NYC-HNL flights were never about connections to begin with. UA's service departs at 9:15am, meaning very few connections will make it on time. The HA one is slightly better at 10am (for whatever B6 and AA interline it can garner)
 
chicawgo
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 59):
The NYC-HNL flights were never about connections to begin with. UA's service departs at 9:15am, meaning very few connections will make it on time. The HA one is slightly better at 10am (for whatever B6 and AA interline it can garner)

Good point. But I still don't understand what point poster was making about saying that EWR is bigger than ORD.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 60):
Good point. But I still don't understand what point poster was making about saying that EWR is bigger than ORD.

It's not a false statement though. HA+UA combined offer more seats on NYC-HNL than ORD-HNL, regardless of how large ORD is as a connection point.
 
chicawgo
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:36 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 61):
It's not a false statement though. HA+UA combined offer more seats on NYC-HNL than ORD-HNL, regardless of how large ORD is as a connection point.

No, the poster was discussing the size of the "city," that NY is a bigger city than Chicago. Which of course is true. I'm just saying I don't get the relevance.

Also, don't forget about ORD-OGG. Many of the NYC-HNL are connecting to other islands at HNL.
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 5757
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

RE: Why So Little ORD-HNL?

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 58):
-As has been mentioned, ORD-HNL does NOT take up 2 planes.

AA used to fly ORD-HNL-OGG-HNL-ORD with a single DC-10-30 frame for years.

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 56):
I've been to Hawaii (all over Oahu) and several Caribbean islands. There is just simply no comparison. But YMMV...

This subject comes up constantly & there is always a point where someone feels the need to compare Hawaii to the Caribbean & closer beach destinations, then someone else says Hawaii is much more than that, then the thread derails & we wait until the next thread on the subject comes along.

Hawaii isn't a cheap beach destination, but I was also lucky enough to live there for a few years & worked at the largest retail travel agency in the State.

I booked lots & lots of business travel, Dr's & Nurses to Guam & Saipan weekly, Lawyers to Mexico City, Zurich & Seoul, Bank Execs to Australia & Canada, it's a business center for the entire Pacific & it has the traffic to support the flights that exist.

As far as fake resorts etc... those are in the Caribbean & Mexico as well & if one has the opportunity to rent a house when you visit Hawaii for a one, two or three week stay, you can avoid the expensive resort trappings if you desire.

While in a few Caribbean nations you can't safely leave your all inclusive resort because of criminal activity, which is the reason these resorts have proliferated in Jamaica.

While in Hawaii you are in this country which means no passports & exchange fees for US residents, that is quite a draw in itself. Last I read, US passports are held by less than 20% of Americans, while our European counterparts are at nearly 90%.

For those who don't know, it's become quite expensive to get a US passport, if you have a family of 4 or 5, that's a chunk of the vacation budget to get passports alone, just stay in the USA & use that money for your $15 hamburger if you wish.

The USVI isn't Hawaii, I've been to both, no comparison at all.
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