speedbird128
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:53 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 50):
would have terrible results.

It does.
A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:00 pm

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 44):
So please tell me what her condition was when she checked in? Her father is quoted as saying she was "hot and bothered" and was "cuddling into her mom" at the check in line. I will be honest, if I was flying I would want the airline to check on any passenger that looks a little unwell for a flight. I do not want to be stuck for 8 hours in a tube where someone is sick when they should have been stopped at check-in

In that case I would hope they would not only sue the hell out of the airline but the hell out of you.

If medical AMATEURS imagine they can tell other people what they are aloud to do or not to do on medical grounds they should get a clear message that that is not there business.
If their is a clear case of a virulent infection and/or a physician declares a person unfit to fly, not the other way round, it is an acceptable decision. Medical AMATEURS and there I include the ground personal of airlines should not decide who is fit to fly and who is not.
Here the airline even disregards the opinion of an medical professional. How far is it possible to stretch stupidity.

Otherwise everybody should need to carry a certificate regarding his ability to fly and that includes YOU.
 
flyboy_se
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 39):
After they refused to accept the diagnosis of the on site health professional and demanded the family doctor fax a letter they crossed the line. I hope the family sues and everyone involved is fired.

In many airports, the airport does not have a doctor. They usually have nurses. They are not authorised to issue fit to fly certificate. This can be done only by the doctor. This could explain the need to contact the doctor of the family. He has the records at hand, and can issue a certificate based on the observation from the nurse at the airport who examined the girl.

I think this story needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
AA94
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:27 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 51):

By that logic, ground staff shouldn't be able to deny boarding to inebriated passengers without drawing blood for a BAC reading.

The airline has the discretion to make visual assessments of everyone. Did they overreact in this case? Perhaps. But reading passengers is part of the job.
 
Armodeen
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:54 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 45):
Etihad were not satisfied and, with a duty of care for both her and there rest of the full B77W, they requested a GP's medical assessment of her fitness to fly.

Except they didn't get that, no GP examined the patient at any time. Basically what the staff wanted was a piece of paper to cover their own backs with should anything go wrong.
 
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enzo011
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 51):
In that case I would hope they would not only sue the hell out of the airline but the hell out of you.

If medical AMATEURS imagine they can tell other people what they are aloud to do or not to do on medical grounds they should get a clear message that that is not there business.
If their is a clear case of a virulent infection and/or a physician declares a person unfit to fly, not the other way round, it is an acceptable decision. Medical AMATEURS and there I include the ground personal of airlines should not decide who is fit to fly and who is not.
Here the airline even disregards the opinion of an medical professional. How far is it possible to stretch stupidity.

Otherwise everybody should need to carry a certificate regarding his ability to fly and that includes YOU.

So you want them to sue me for thinking airline staff should do their job? Once again I ask, are you certain that the passenger looked fine to fly at check in? If you are not sure, we have to take quotes from the father. What do you think 'hot and bothered' means. I am thinking she may have been ill on the way to the airport and wasn't feeling well. Not a reason to deny boarding, but something a medical professional should check out. This happened in this case, not sure what else anyone is expecting.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:11 pm

Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 52):
In many airports, the airport does not have a doctor. They usually have nurses. They are not authorised to issue fit to fly certificate. This can be done only by the doctor. This could explain the need to contact the doctor of the family. He has the records at hand, and can issue a certificate based on the observation from the nurse at the airport who examined the girl.

Correct. A Paramedic does not have the authority to certify someone fit to fly, certainly not with any company I've flown for. It has always required the assessment of a GP.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 35):
(More likely, the real purpose was to try to deny boarding for cause to as many folks as possible to avoid paying the European overbooking penalties.)

EY22 went out with 341 on board. Etihad 2-class B77Ws seat 412. More likely you're blowing hot air.

Quoting Armodeen (Reply 54):
Except they didn't get that, no GP examined the patient at any time. Basically what the staff wanted was a piece of paper to cover their own backs with should anything go wrong.

What they got was an assurance that, as far as their own GP was aware, she had no current health condition which would prevent her from flying or have an effect on the rest of the passengers travelling on the flight. In the litigious world we live in, someone was clearly being cautious.

Had they not done so and she had caused an inflight interruption and divert due to a pre-existing condition, a.net would be all over them for not taking all necessary steps to find out. ::shrug::

Rgds
Flying around India
 
richierich
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 37):
It is getting ridiculous. Some posters are even defending the behavior of that airline. Next stop is that every passenger has to bring an attest from physician that he or she is able to fly.

And that really sums up this thread...at the same time, we should all understand that we may not be seeing the whole story here. At face value (no pun intended), if the events happened the way they were described in the media, then it amounts to racism, pure and simple. A very slippery slope but at the very least we should all expect better customer service from an airline, especially one that happens to fly to many different regions all around the world.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 47):
Isn't the term ginger itself a slur and an insult?


Yes, a very mild one, and it probably depends on how it is used. In front of "beer" and "ale", that's perfectly fine.

If all ultra pale-skinned people are to be stopped for appearing ill, no wonder scientists are predicting redhair (gingers) will be all gone by the end of this century.
None shall pass!!!!
 
offloaded
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:21 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 38):
Perhaps they should have flown from Edinburgh instead?

I thought the same, but then looked at the connex:

EY 28 Y 08AUG EDIAUH HS1 0910 1940

EY 22 Y 08AUG MANAUH HS1 2025 #0645

EY 278 Y 09AUG AUHMLE HS1 0910 1440

(8 aug was just a random date but the timetable is the same daily)

Flying from EDI would've meant an overnight in AUH.

I'm guessing EK was more expensive, but the connections from GLA are good
EK 28 Y 08AUG GLADXB HS1 1415 #0040
EK 656 Y 09AUG DXBMLE HS1 0230 0740

EK 26 Y 08AUG GLADXB HS1 2135 #0755
EK 652 Y 09AUG DXBMLE HS1 0950 1505
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
Andy33
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 57):
At face value (no pun intended), if the events happened the way they were described in the media, then it amounts to racism, pure and simple

Now hang on a minute. I disagree with the way this was handled, but are you seriously suggesting that British check-in staff working for a ground handling contractor at a British airport showed racism against a British girl because she had ginger hair? Not even the UK tabloid papers who blew the story up suggested that, because nobody in the UK would believe it. Or were they being racist because she came from Scotland? Nobody would believe that either.
Racism exists in the UK, certainly, just not in this direction.
 
Planeflyer
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:44 pm

Good looking kid. Something more must be going on or else somebody need retraining.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting adamblang (Reply 3):
Could be manipulating their pushover parents. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Quoting SSTeve (Reply 11):
"hot and bothered" must mean something less amusing in the UK.

Maybe the parents would rather their daughter cling to them when "hot and bothered" than to a young man with less than honorable intentions...

  

Quoting Max Q (Reply 30):
Pretty ridiculous and almost a bit funny until you consider the poor little girls feelings.

I would never give my business to such a bunch of idiots again.

Poor little girl, is she 7 now ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anjin
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:15 pm

Upgrade on way back me thinks. How to dent a youngsters confidence in one easy go.
Hope they have a great holiday and flight back
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 55):
So you want them to sue me for thinking airline staff should do their job? Once again I ask, are you certain that the passenger looked fine to fly at check in? If you are not sure, we have to take quotes from the father. What do you think 'hot and bothered' means. I am thinking she may have been ill on the way to the airport and wasn't feeling well. Not a reason to deny boarding, but something a medical professional should check out. This happened in this case, not sure what else anyone is expecting.

And what if the girl was hot and bothered? It does not matter. Airline staff does not have the medical knowledge. They are amateurs regarding medical decisions. Next it will be an old person looking frail or anybody using a walking stick or whatever strange ideas this airline staff seems to develop. You seem to be very fond of amateurs making decisions. I would put it the other way round, if an airline wants to ban people from boarding they should supply the physician to make the decision. I do not see in the rules that every passenger needs a medical attest to fly. Who would get the idea that your normal fourteen year child will be banned from boarding? Does everybody being perfectly healthy needs now an medical attest to fly? Why not pick on the obese, clearly a risk factor, or a girl looking too thin?

Why did the airline not trust the paramedic, because he declared the girl was fine? When the airline phones their famous medical hotline, they seem to trust the nurse answering there, or is that only an burocratic exercise and only accepted by the airline when the nurse supplies the no?

The physician clearly decided that the girl was fit to fly, so the airline staff were clearly barking up the wrong tree making noise for nothing, only the very early arrival of this passengers helped to resolve the situation.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Thread starter):
Anyway, good for a chuckle.

I don't find it very funny. It's not any better than if a Northern European airline started flights to Nigera, then refused a black man from flying because he was "sickly black". Dark as coal. Surely something must be wrong with him?

And the girl in the article doesn't look pale at all compared to a lot of people I know.

From the article:

"Paul Wain (girl's father) suspects the holdup had nothing to do with whether his daughter was healthy enough to fly but believes Etihad was trying to ground certain passengers due to an oversold cabin.

But the family’s ordeal did not end when they arrived in the Maldives. Etihad lost both parents’ luggage — and couldn’t deliver it for three days."

It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. And that they started offloading these people's baggage due to being over MTOW.

Quoting solnabo (Reply 29):

If I was Etihadian I would bar "sickly-looking" Pippi Longstocking family

You really made my day (coffee all over desk)

Priceless!      

And ruin the whole family's vacation? Why on earth would you do that unless you were a hateful racist?
 
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gatibosgru
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:34 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 1):
I'm not that old but I never remember ANY of my 14 year old female friends back in the 80s clinging to their Mommies and Daddies like toddlers. But I see it today with my nieces and their friends when there is even a hint of "not feeling good" or simply being tired. It's really pitiful how baby-like some of these kids are. That the EY staff misinterpreted this behavior for an illness isn't that far afield.

Really?
@DadCelo
 
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enzo011
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
And what if the girl was hot and bothered? It does not matter. Airline staff does not have the medical knowledge. They are amateurs regarding medical decisions. Next it will be an old person looking frail or anybody using a walking stick or whatever strange ideas this airline staff seems to develop. You seem to be very fond of amateurs making decisions. I would put it the other way round, if an airline wants to ban people from boarding they should supply the physician to make the decision. I do not see in the rules that every passenger needs a medical attest to fly. Who would get the idea that your normal fourteen year child will be banned from boarding? Does everybody being perfectly healthy needs now an medical attest to fly? Why not pick on the obese, clearly a risk factor, or a girl looking too thin?

Why did the airline not trust the paramedic, because he declared the girl was fine? When the airline phones their famous medical hotline, they seem to trust the nurse answering there, or is that only an burocratic exercise and only accepted by the airline when the nurse supplies the no?

The physician clearly decided that the girl was fit to fly, so the airline staff were clearly barking up the wrong tree making noise for nothing, only the very early arrival of this passengers helped to resolve the situation.

You are correct, the check-in staff doesn't have the medical knowledge to know if she was fit to travel. That is why they asked for the medical advice of the paramedics at the airport. It seems as if the paramedic requested that a doctor certify she is fit to travel. If you can find the passage or quotes from the family that contradicts this information please share it. Nowhere did the check-in staff make their own assessment on her health. They sought the advice from medical personnel. It seems as though this medically trained person advised the airline that a certificate is required.

Quote from the story: "An Etihad spokeswoman said: “Staff were concerned about the wellbeing of a young passenger ahead of a lengthy flight.

“The team called for a medic who examined the child and requested a ‘fit to fly’ letter from a doctor, allowing the family to board. Our team on the ground continued to provide support ahead of the flight.”"

Or are you questioning the medical proficiency of the paramedics at MAN?

I was under the impression that when a medical emergency occurs in flight that the crew are in contact with medical doctors and not just nurses. If this is incorrect please let me know.

Story here, http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...re-ginger-fly-teenage-scot-6044956
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 66):

Q

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 66):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
And what if the girl was hot and bothered? It does not matter. Airline staff does not have the medical knowledge. They are amateurs regarding medical decisions. Next it will be an old person looking frail or anybody using a walking stick or whatever strange ideas this airline staff seems to develop. You seem to be very fond of amateurs making decisions. I would put it the other way round, if an airline wants to ban people from boarding they should supply the physician to make the decision. I do not see in the rules that every passenger needs a medical attest to fly. Who would get the idea that your normal fourteen year child will be banned from boarding? Does everybody being perfectly healthy needs now an medical attest to fly? Why not pick on the obese, clearly a risk factor, or a girl looking too thin?

Why did the airline not trust the paramedic, because he declared the girl was fine? When the airline phones their famous medical hotline, they seem to trust the nurse answering there, or is that only an burocratic exercise and only accepted by the airline when the nurse supplies the no?

The physician clearly decided that the girl was fit to fly, so the airline staff were clearly barking up the wrong tree making noise for nothing, only the very early arrival of this passengers helped to resolve the situation.

You are correct, the check-in staff doesn't have the medical knowledge to know if she was fit to travel. That is why they asked for the medical advice of the paramedics at the airport. It seems as if the paramedic requested that a doctor certify she is fit to travel. If you can find the passage or quotes from the family that contradicts this information please share it. Nowhere did the check-in staff make their own assessment on her health. They sought the advice from medical personnel. It seems as though this medically trained person advised the airline that a certificate is required.

Quote from the story: "An Etihad spokeswoman said: “Staff were concerned about the wellbeing of a young passenger ahead of a lengthy flight.

“The team called for a medic who examined the child and requested a ‘fit to fly’ letter from a doctor, allowing the family to board. Our team on the ground continued to provide support ahead of the flight.”"

Or are you questioning the medical proficiency of the paramedics at MAN?

I was under the impression that when a medical emergency occurs in flight that the crew are in contact with medical doctors and not just nurses. If this is incorrect please let me know.

Story here, http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...re-ginger-fly-teenage-scot-6044956


Quote from the article you are referencing: The Etihad staff insisted on written confirmation from a doctor that Grace was fit to fly – even after an airport paramedic gave her a check-up and told them she was fine.

The article the thread starter supplied: http://nypost.com/2015/07/14/airline...boarding-due-to-white-sickly-skin/

Quote: After an airport paramedic performed a check-up and deemed Grace fit to fly, the Etihad staff still demanded that the Wains produce a doctor’s letter to confirm that Grace was well enough for the trip to Abu Dhabi.
 
aircatalonia
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 64):
I don't find it very funny. It's not any better than if a Northern European airline started flights to Nigera, then refused a black man from flying because he was "sickly black". Dark as coal. Surely something must be wrong with him?

Pale people tend to have a more sickly appearance than tan or black. Nothing racist about that. Also their skin seems to age more slowly and they tend to look younger. These are just facts.

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 64):
"Paul Wain (girl's father) suspects the holdup had nothing to do with whether his daughter was healthy enough to fly but believes Etihad was trying to ground certain passengers due to an oversold cabin.

That's more like it.
 
bennett123
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:22 pm

Did you read reply 56?.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 56):
Correct. A Paramedic does not have the authority to certify someone fit to fly, certainly not with any company I've flown for. It has always required the assessment of a GP.

So the MedAir advisory service were a nurse answers and makes the assement is a hoax by the airlines?

Quote from MedAir: "At the Airport: Passenger Fit-to-Fly Assessments

Airline personnel are encouraged to call MedAire for an assessment of a passenger’s medical fitness to fly. Adequately assessing a potentially infirmed passenger may prevent an in-flight medical event and a resulting diversion, reducing the risks associated with an unplanned landing.

The assessment is quick and easy, and starts with a phone call. Trained on delivering quality, sensitive customer care, and aware of airline regulations, our dedicated nurses may ask the questions crew members may not feel comfortable or permitted to ask a passenger.

Recommendations on whether a passenger is fit for travel are based on MedAire’s Medical Guidelines for Air Travel in conjunction with an airline’s protocols. This method provides a consistent experience for all passengers, no matter where the flight is originating or which gate agents are on duty.

To assist with identifying passengers that may be medically unfit to travel, MedAire provides tools and training for airport personnel."

None of the companies you have flown for has used MedAid? Really? Or is the answering nurse just to explain the refusal?

But the worst point you are not getting is:

Perfectly healthy persons have now to bring a medical attest to be able to travel if the airline staff gets a bee in the bonnet.

[Edited 2015-07-15 16:12:33]
 
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enzo011
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:50 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 70):
Perfectly healthy persons have now to bring a medical attest to be able to travel if the airline staff gets a bee in the bonnet.

And yet the father didn't state his daughter was perfectly healthy. Do you not get that she was "hot and bothered"? This can mean a lot of things, but perfectly healthy is probably not one of them. It usually means in some discomfort. We do not know if either the airline or the father is exaggerating or understating what happened.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 69):
Did you read reply 56?.

Agreed.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:21 am

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 66):
It seems as if the paramedic requested that a doctor certify she is fit to travel. If you can find the passage or quotes from the family that contradicts this information please share it. Nowhere did the check-in staff make their own assessment on her health. They sought the advice from medical personnel. It seems as though this medically trained person advised the airline that a certificate is required.

You have just plain made this up.

From the article: "After an airport paramedic performed a check-up and deemed Grace fit to fly, the Etihad staff still demanded that the Wains produce a doctor’s letter to confirm that Grace was well enough for the trip to Abu Dhabi."

and

"One of the Etihad check-in girls then made the decision that she wasn’t fit to fly based on the fact she was pale in color and was leaning against her mum."

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2015/0...rom-boarding-etihad-flight-due-to/
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:25 am

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 56):
EY22 went out with 341 on board. Etihad 2-class B77Ws seat 412

I know that you know better than this. That statistic tells us exactly zero about how many pax could be carried on that flight that day. The witnesses said they were trying to find people to DBC. They ended up leaving luggage behind. That should tell you something.

[Edited 2015-07-15 17:26:03]
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 72):

"One of the Etihad check-in girls then made the decision that she wasn’t fit to fly based on the fact she was pale in color and was leaning against her mum."

me thinks the check-in girl was over-inflating her role. I don't know how someone could make a medical judgement without having medical background.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:27 am

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 71):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 70):
Perfectly healthy persons have now to bring a medical attest to be able to travel if the airline staff gets a bee in the bonnet.

And yet the father didn't state his daughter was perfectly healthy. Do you not get that she was "hot and bothered"? This can mean a lot of things, but perfectly healthy is probably not one of them. It usually means in some discomfort. We do not know if either the airline or the father is exaggerating or understating what happened.

And nowhere it was stated that she was sick.

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 71):
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 69):
Did you read reply 56?.

Agreed.

And jet airlines consult AirMed were a nurse answers in connection with fit to fly problems.
 
b747400erf
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:30 am

Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 52):
In many airports, the airport does not have a doctor. They usually have nurses. They are not authorised to issue fit to fly certificate. This can be done only by the doctor. This could explain the need to contact the doctor of the family. He has the records at hand, and can issue a certificate based on the observation from the nurse at the airport who examined the girl.

A paramedic is not capable of checking vital signs and finding someone is not suffering any condition and is healthy?

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 56):
Correct. A Paramedic does not have the authority to certify someone fit to fly, certainly not with any company I've flown for. It has always required the assessment of a GP.

The GP did not perform an assessment, why do you keep misrepresenting the story? The GP only faxed over information from her past visits. That does nothing to assess her current condition, which the paramedic found to be normal.
 
PhilBy
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:54 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 37):
Next stop is that every passenger has to bring an attest from physician that he or she is able to fly.

I'm surprised that that is not already required at French airports. You need medical certificates for everything else.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 76):
A paramedic is not capable of checking vital signs and finding someone is not suffering any condition and is healthy?

Legally (in the UK) a paramedic cannot declare a state of health (or death). They can provide details to a doctor who can make a determination based on the information provided by the paramedic without need to personally inspect the subject.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:27 am

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 77):
Legally (in the UK) a paramedic cannot declare a state of health (or death). They can provide details to a doctor who can make a determination based on the information provided by the paramedic without need to personally inspect the subject.

But an airline staff can? How can airline legally ban a passenger to fly on medical grounds without the consultation and approval of a physician?
 
PhilBy
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:15 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 78):
How can airline legally ban a passenger to fly on medical grounds without the consultation and approval of a physician?

They cannot. They can however express reservations about a passenger and request medical confirmation that the passenger is fit to fly should the passenger show any of the typical indicators of certain illnesses. They could be legally liable if they failed to do so given some of the recent epidemics. Things to watch for would probably include pale skin, sweating, signs of tiredness as these are all key signs of many diseases and medical conditions.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:49 am

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 79):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 78):
How can airline legally ban a passenger to fly on medical grounds without the consultation and approval of a physician?

They cannot. They can however express reservations about a passenger and request medical confirmation that the passenger is fit to fly should the passenger show any of the typical indicators of certain illnesses. They could be legally liable if they failed to do so given some of the recent epidemics. Things to watch for would probably include pale skin, sweating, signs of tiredness as these are all key signs of many diseases and medical conditions

That is a nice play with words. Who does the decision that the passenger shows the typical indicators of certain illnesses?
A medical amateur on the airline staff?

They could also legally liable denying a healthy person from boarding.
 
b747400erf
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:12 am

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 77):
Legally (in the UK) a paramedic cannot declare a state of health (or death). They can provide details to a doctor who can make a determination based on the information provided by the paramedic without need to personally inspect the subject.
Quoting PhilBy (Reply 79):

They cannot. They can however express reservations about a passenger and request medical confirmation that the passenger is fit to fly should the passenger show any of the typical indicators of certain illnesses. They could be legally liable if they failed to do so given some of the recent epidemics. Things to watch for would probably include pale skin, sweating, signs of tiredness as these are all key signs of many diseases and medical conditions.

You and others arguing this same point in the topic are missing the story, it was described in detail in the first post.

The paramedic found nothing wrong, and no doctor actually examined the girl. The girls' family doctor only faxed over a letter saying she had no poor health in previous visits. That does not constitute an examination of her current state. The paramedic is quite able to examine an individual and make a recommendation that the airline could follow. The workers there chose instead to continue pursuing it and ignored the medics advice and wanted a note from the doctor who had no way of actually examining her. In other words, the doctor was not able to ascertain her current condition and in no way was that letter proof of her health. The family should sue this airline and all the workers involved should be fired.

It was quite clearly racism as if this was a minority treated in this fashion, the outrage would have been quite huge.
 
PhilBy
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:07 am

Just to add a little reality to some peoples understanding of UK law.....

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 81):
The family should sue this airline

As this occurred in the UK the family can sue the airline only for actual fiscal damage. Starting a civil law suit to reclaim the cost of a phone call to the doctor seems to me to be disproportionate. I doubt if it would even qualify for the small claims court.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 81):
It was quite clearly racism

In this case the family would have to report the event to the police who, if they felt there were sufficient grounds, would start an enquiry. It would be the responsibility of the police to prosecute if they felt that there was any racist bias.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:26 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 73):
I know that you know better than this. That statistic tells us exactly zero about how many pax could be carried on that flight that day. The witnesses said they were trying to find people to DBC. They ended up leaving luggage behind. That should tell you something.

You're intimating the possibility that a B77W might have been weight restricted on a 6 hour segment..? I had no idea the frame was so compromised. No one was left behind on July 6th, not one. I wonder who these witnesses were who saw the medical assessment in the privacy of an assessment room also.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 76):
The GP did not perform an assessment, why do you keep misrepresenting the story? The GP only faxed over information from her past visits. That does nothing to assess her current condition, which the paramedic found to be normal.

It is perfectly acceptable for an airline to request from a GP information confirming or otherwise whether or not a passenger has presented recently for medical care. It is quite possible the Paramedic may have reviewed the patient and commented that the symptoms were synonymous with condition A, B or C but that he or she was unable to confirm. Equally, he or she is not qualified to sign off a passenger as fit to fly. He or she has zero jurisdiction to do so. You are clinging to comments made in a highly subjective tabloid newspaper report when first hand feedback has been filtered down for balance, yet people choose to ignore it.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 77):
Legally (in the UK) a paramedic cannot declare a state of health (or death). They can provide details to a doctor who can make a determination based on the information provided by the paramedic without need to personally inspect the subject.

"She seems ok to me, but she needs a Doctor's authorisation as fit to fly" is most likely what was said. They've latched on to it as the Paramedic claiming she was fit to fly and this has led to the story ending up in the press.

There have been two outbreaks of avian flu in the UK in just the past 2 weeks. I wonder, had she boarded without any health screening, carrying the disease, what those baying for the blood and sacking of everyone involved would have said had she contaminated a full B77W.

Rgds
Flying around India
 
bennett123
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:36 am

The statement from the airline, (OP) says that the medic said that the doctor needed to be contacted.

As for racism, what evidence is there of that?.
 
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enzo011
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:36 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 72):
You have just plain made this up.

From the article: "After an airport paramedic performed a check-up and deemed Grace fit to fly, the Etihad staff still demanded that the Wains produce a doctor’s letter to confirm that Grace was well enough for the trip to Abu Dhabi."

and

"One of the Etihad check-in girls then made the decision that she wasn’t fit to fly based on the fact she was pale in color and was leaning against her mum."

You are right. It appears the airline asked for further confirmation that she was fit to travel. Whether this was done trying to offload the passengers or as part of a legal requirement I don't know.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 75):
And nowhere it was stated that she was sick.

So what was she then? She was either healthy or she was not well. We know she was at best tired and a little paler than normal from the father. This is not perfect health is it.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 76):
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 56):
Correct. A Paramedic does not have the authority to certify someone fit to fly, certainly not with any company I've flown for. It has always required the assessment of a GP.

The GP did not perform an assessment, why do you keep misrepresenting the story? The GP only faxed over information from her past visits. That does nothing to assess her current condition, which the paramedic found to be normal.

I think BlueShamu330s was only making a general point, not just regarding this case. If she had fallen ill on the flight and there had to be a divert, I wonder who would have been liable then?

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 78):
Quoting PhilBy (Reply 77):
Legally (in the UK) a paramedic cannot declare a state of health (or death). They can provide details to a doctor who can make a determination based on the information provided by the paramedic without need to personally inspect the subject.

But an airline staff can? How can airline legally ban a passenger to fly on medical grounds without the consultation and approval of a physician?
Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 74):
me thinks the check-in girl was over-inflating her role. I don't know how someone could make a medical judgement without having medical background.

So let me get this straight, because I don't have medical training I cannot assess the old man straining to breath and complaining of chest pain and call an ambulance? That is what you guys are saying, because the airline check in staff aren't medically trained they are not allowed to visibly look for passengers that may cause a diversion due to illness. Remember this isn't just to stop the other 300 odd passengers being inconvenienced, it is for the safety of the person on board as well. If you are in dire need of medical attention, being up 35000ft in a metal/CRFP tube is not the place to be.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 81):
It was quite clearly racism as if this was a minority treated in this fashion, the outrage would have been quite huge.

I agree, those British employed staff needs some to get their attitudes checked.
 
b747400erf
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:48 am

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 83):
You are clinging to comments made in a highly subjective tabloid newspaper report when first hand feedback has been filtered down for balance, yet people choose to ignore it.

Who could miss those highly important first hand accounts of you explaining the reason people are upset is all because we hate the middle east and their people.

Whether they received treatment in the past or not means nothing, a doctor unable to check out a patient has no way of knowing their health status. The crew refused the professional perfectly capable of taking general vitals to show they were not sick.

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 85):
If she had fallen ill on the flight and there had to be a divert, I wonder who would have been liable then?

You can sue an airline for allowing you to board an airplane while sick?

[Edited 2015-07-16 04:48:39]
 
PhilBy
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:53 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 86):
You can sue an airline for allowing you to board an airplane while sick?

In some less-developed civilisations you can sue anyone for anything.

Allowing a passenger suspected of having a contageous disease on-board without a doctors note might qualify as breach of duty of care which would allow the HSE (the only plaintif in the UK allowed to demand punitive damages) to sue.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 86):
Whether they received treatment in the past or not means nothing, a doctor unable to check out a patient has no way of knowing their health status.

When I dive or run a half-marathon I have to have a doctors note less than 12 months old. If I do a full-marathon ot triathlon it must be less than 3 months old. Neither of those guarantees that I'm fit on the day.

None of the above affirms or denies that the paramedic spoke to the doctor over the phone. If the doctor is told that the patient has been checked by a paramedic and has temp xxx BP xxx etc, has had recent contact with the patient and has the patients medical history he can make almost as informed a judgement as if the patient were present. It is common practice for doctors to work in this manner.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:05 pm

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 85):
So let me get this straight, because I don't have medical training I cannot assess the old man straining to breath and complaining of chest pain and call an ambulance? That is what you guys are saying, because the airline check in staff aren't medically trained they are not allowed to visibly look for passengers that may cause a diversion due to illness. Remember this isn't just to stop the other 300 odd passengers being inconvenienced, it is for the safety of the person on board as well. If you are in dire need of medical attention, being up 35000ft in a metal/CRFP tube is not the place to be.

We are talking about a redheaded girl looking pale. Not a person in the process of dying. Not somebody fainting or having difficulties to breath, not somebody having chest pains.

And yes until you show a medical qualification/training you are not qualified to make a decision based on your amateurish view of medical emergencies.

We talk about a paramedic declaring the girl looks fine.

So where are the clear symptoms spelling out to complete amateurs that this is clearly a sick person?

I am tired of people producing this overdrawn situation to explain why a airline tries to keep a healthy normal 14 year old girl from boarding a plane.

Apart from all this as many people spent as many hours on board of airplanes it is reasonable to assume that once in a while somebody will have an medical emergency or die on board an airplane. And usually this will happen without anybody expecting it.
And in many instances people traveling or living in remote areas are further away from medical help than aboard an airplane. Do we need steady anxiety attacks about those people too?

[Edited 2015-07-16 06:45:52]
 
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enzo011
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 86):
You can sue an airline for allowing you to board an airplane while sick?

If it was called for me to be sued I guess anyone can sue for anything. I was more thinking medically, if the GP cleared her to travel and she fell ill, he would surely be held accountable. But he didn't really clear her for travel, he only stated he knows of no reason that she couldn't travel. If he was sure she was okay he would have stated, "She is fit to travel on this flight."
 
PhilBy
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 88):
We talk about a paramedic declaring the girl looks fine.
Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 89):
I was more thinking medically, if the GP cleared her to travel and she fell ill, he would surely be held accountable.

Generally, in the UK a paramedic is not qualified to make an official statment that the patient is well. Normally a paramedic (for example at sporting events and shows) will take observations ( BP, pulse, temp etc) and then pass these to a doctor, often by phone, who will make the judgement. I would find it unrealistic to postulate that the observations of the paramedic were not passed to the doctor who signed the note when he was contacted by the family. I suspect (but obviously cannot know) that the observations of the paramedic are now stored in the NHS database next to the justification to issue the medical note.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:30 pm

You're all ignoring the fact that, had this got to the gate, the Captain would have had the final decision and, no matter how much you want to bleat racism, lack of medical knowledge or anything else, his decision is final.

Perhaps we should instead appreciate that the system worked and she was permitted to travel.

Rgds

[Edited 2015-07-16 10:31:52]
Flying around India
 
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enzo011
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 88):
We are talking about a redheaded girl looking pale. Not a person in the process of dying. Not somebody fainting or having difficulties to breath, not somebody having chest pains.

And yes until you show a medical qualification/training you are not qualified to make a decision based on your amateurish view of medical emergencies.

We talk about a paramedic declaring the girl looks fine.

So where are the clear symptoms spelling out to complete amateurs that this is clearly a sick person?

I am tired of people producing this overdrawn situation to explain why a airline tries to keep a healthy normal 14 year old girl from boarding a plane.

Apart from all this as many people spent as many hours on board of airplanes it is reasonable to assume that once in a while somebody will have an medical emergency or die on board an airplane. And usually this will happen without anybody expecting it.
And in many instances people traveling or living in remote areas are further away from medical help than aboard an airplane. Do we need steady anxiety attacks about those people too?

She was pale and looking tired and clutching her mom. She wasn't just pale and standing in line. Stop falling for the headline and read the story. While I think Etihad may have been a little strict in requesting the GP letter, I have no problem with any airline asking check in staff to check if passengers are fit to travel. They are supposed to do this for passengers that have had too much to drink as well.

Do you think we have less on-board emergencies because there is screening done at airports? What are your thoughts on check-in staff making sure passengers that have casts are fit to travel? Or are they not allowed to do even that?
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 85):
So what was she then? She was either healthy or she was not well. We know she was at best tired and a little paler than normal from the father. This is not perfect health is it.

So the amateur doc keeps on going. Being sick and perhaps being tired are worlds apart. Nobody stated she was paler than normally. She is normally very pale.

I find it astonishing how people in an industry build on knowledge

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 90):
Generally, in the UK a paramedic is not qualified to make an official statment that the patient is well. Normally a paramedic (for example at sporting events and shows) will take observations ( BP, pulse, temp etc) and then pass these to a doctor, often by phone, who will make the judgement. I would find it unrealistic to postulate that the observations of the paramedic were not passed to the doctor who signed the note when he was contacted by the family. I suspect (but obviously cannot know) that the observations of the paramedic are now stored in the NHS database next to the justification to issue the medical note.


But it is not about a decision if an sick person is able to fly. Of course you need the physician to give the attest and declare the terminal cancer patient fit to fly.

But that it is not the question here, it is rather does a healthy person need a doctors attest to be able to fly? Or, was there any serious indication that the girl was sick? The Paramedic called, did not see any indication that the girl was sick, but airline staff do know of course better.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 91):
You're all ignoring the fact that, had this got to the gate, the Captain would have had the final decision and, no matter how much you want to bleat racism, lack of medical knowledge or anything else, his decision is final.

Perhaps we should instead appreciate that the system worked and she was permitted to travel.

Rgds

And also the Captain would hypothetical decide to keep a perfect healthy person from flying. Why, because he would never overrule the staff? Or would he have thought a little bit further and stoped the nonsense.

The "system", if you want to call a farce a system, worked only because the family was very early and somebody could contact their GP. Think about this farce on a weekend.

Most here forget the main point, the girl was not sick!

And I am pretty sure the airline would have been in a spot of bother for not transporting a healthy person.

Law number one the airline staff is always right.
Law number two if the airline staff should have it wrong, see law number one.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 86):
The crew refused the professional perfectly capable of taking general vitals to show they were not sick.

It has not been stated the exact reason why Etihad contacted the family GP and for confidentiality, they will be bound not to be able to comment and therefore defend themselves directly. The letter from the family GP is certainly not a certification of fitness to fly which one would normally expect to see, suggesting It may have been disclosed by the parents or the girl that she had been ill in the days or weeks prior to travelling. Just a hunch...

It would make sense therefore for Etihad to make contact with the family GP and for him to reply in the manner he did. Just another hunch...

That aside, on the matter of "the professional perfectly capable of taking general vitals to show they were not sick." If that "evidence" were ever to have been presented to me at any of my 4 past UK employers, it would still have required GP certification as fit to fly before allowing her on board, without exception.

As a point of order, it was not "the crew" who refused, but the ground staff and Station Manager who instigated the health and safety protocol after seeing a girl pale, sweating and clinging to her mother.
Flying around India
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 92):
She was pale and looking tired and clutching her mom. She wasn't just pale and standing in line. Stop falling for the headline and read the story. While I think Etihad may have been a little strict in requesting the GP letter, I have no problem with any airline asking check in staff to check if passengers are fit to travel. They are supposed to do this for passengers that have had too much to drink as well.

I perfectly understand that you have no problem with airline staff claiming from healthy persons a physicians attest to be able to travel, you made that perfectly clear.
I read the story, and I am baffled that you defend this behavior. What did the girl do wrong, looking pale and leaning into her mom? Perfect reasons to prevent her from boarding. Big medical emergency.
And you have to compare that with picking out drunks, how comparable.

The Etihad staff was either paranoid or completely bonkers.
 
ThReaTeN
Posts: 219
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:59 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 12):
Tip top old chap, you didn't see that sort of nonsense in my day. Send them to Boarding school - a few games of soggy biscuit with their chums and a stiff beating off Master should render them sufficiently devoid of emotional weakness to make it through an airport terminal unmolested by gentlemen of the commonwealth.
Major Redvers Wilberry-Smythe.

Usually not a fan of your posts of the more sarcastic variety, but that was FRACKin' golden.            
 
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enzo011
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:22 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 93):
So the amateur doc keeps on going. Being sick and perhaps being tired are worlds apart. Nobody stated she was paler than normally. She is normally very pale.

Well according to the story she was tired. Not perhaps tired, she was tired. So you are saying that check-in staff should have ignored her completely and not asked questions about how she felt because she is naturally pale?

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 95):
I perfectly understand that you have no problem with airline staff claiming from healthy persons a physicians attest to be able to travel, you made that perfectly clear.
I read the story, and I am baffled that you defend this behavior. What did the girl do wrong, looking pale and leaning into her mom? Perfect reasons to prevent her from boarding. Big medical emergency.
And you have to compare that with picking out drunks, how comparable.

The Etihad staff was either paranoid or completely bonkers.

She didn't do anything wrong. This doesn't mean the check-in staff was wrong though. Being sick is not anybody's fault. But I feel the strong reaction has more to do with the airline than the incident. You referring to "that airline" and people jumping on the airline for contract staff following procedures makes it seem it is more about the airline than what happened.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting Enzo011 (Reply 97):
She didn't do anything wrong. This doesn't mean the check-in staff was wrong though. Being sick is not anybody's fault. But I feel the strong reaction has more to do with the airline than the incident. You referring to "that airline" and people jumping on the airline for contract staff following procedures makes it seem it is more about the airline than what happened.

When will it fit into your brain, that she was not sick. It was an amateurish wrong diagnosis by the airline staff.
I am talking about the "airline" exactly because I want to be neutral regarding the airline.

And let us compare it to the drunks, like yo want to do it. Let us say you are offered at the end of the meal at the airport restaurant a praline having a little amount of cherry liquor, after having been drinking coffee and water only. You want to board and you are denied, being drunk, because it is possible to smell the alcohol on your breath. A breathalyzer test would be discounted. You only get to board if you bring a medical attest that your alcohol blood level is below 0.5 per mille. You would of course agree that the staff was only vigilant.
 
ODwyerPW
Posts: 1624
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RE: Eithad Bars "Sickly-Looking" Ginger From Boarding

Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:01 pm

The Newspaper article headlines and this thread's topic are both sensationalistic...

The young girl did in fact board the flight, and did in fact have a very nice vacation in the Maldives.

Yes luggage was lost.. It happens...
(Took a 'once in a lifetime' fishing trip to Alaska on NorthWest Airlines... A 13 day vacation.... Airline lost all of our luggage and gear for the first 9 of those days... No reimbursement...Of course each of us purchased hundreds of dollars in replacement gear and clothing to get on with the Salmon fishing adventure. Even more insulting was paying the baggage fees for the extra luggage we had on the return due to additional purchased gear and clothing. That's my definition of a vacation disaster...)
learning never stops.

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