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n797mx
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Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:56 am

Aaib Releases BA762 Accident Report (by Armodeen Jul 14 2015 in Civil Aviation)

After reading this thread, 26/75 passengers took belongings with them for the evacuation. Is there a rule forbidding this? already? I for one think that their should be a rule in the safety announcement about leaving your stuff and maybe a $1000 fine or so if you do take your things. Not staggering, but enough to get the point across. If I'm ever in an emergency I would rather get out right away than wait for the guy to get his backpack of dirty clothes out of the overhead bins.
Clear skies and strong tail winds.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:58 am

Even fining passengers won't do anything IMO. It isn't the monetary value that gets people, it's the emotional attachment to things. People seem to be attached to their phones/tablets/laptops like people were to pictures 30 years ago.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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aerolimani
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:13 am

Perhaps too many stories of theft are out there.
http://nickbradbury.com/2013/07/28/the-crash-landing-of-southwest-345/
I'm not saying it's a good excuse, but it's a plausible explanation for people taking their things with them. These days, many people's computers contain a fair amount of valuable information. Identity theft is a legitimate concern.
 
Passedv1
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:15 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
Even fining passengers won't do anything IMO. It isn't the monetary value that gets people, it's the emotional attachment to things. People seem to be attached to their phones/tablets/laptops like people were to pictures 30 years ago.
Pat

For some passengers at least, I think it might also be out of habbit. If you were sitting in the seat and all of a sudden you had to go...I think it would be difficult for me to NOT reach under the seat in front of me and grab my laptop bag. Once in hand, would I then dump it? Now, people stopping to get stuff out of the overhead bin...now I think that's a different story...I don't think anyone should feel guilty about knocking anyone stopping to get their stuff face down into the seats.
 
aklrno
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:28 am

Quoting Passedv1 (Reply 3):
.I don't think anyone should feel guilty about knocking anyone stopping to get their stuff face down into the seats.

Thanks for that. I was starting to feel guilty about doing that on a normal arrival.  
 
bennett123
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:32 am

Clearly getting something out of the lockers is a no no.

However, I would already have my camera to hand.

No point in leaving it behind.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting n797mx (Thread starter):
After reading this thread, 26/75 passengers took belongings with them for the evacuation. Is there a rule forbidding this? already? I for one think that their should be a rule in the safety announcement about leaving your stuff and maybe a $1000 fine or so if you do take your things. Not staggering, but enough to get the point across. If I'm ever in an emergency I would rather get out right away than wait for the guy to get his backpack of dirty clothes out of the overhead bins.

It is a really hard problem to try and solve. It would take the evacuation even longer if you were to try and enforce the rule during a evac.
Fining is not really an option either, imagine an airline trying to fine a passenger for surviving a accident in their aircraft. Not going to happen.
What should happen though is that certification bodies take account of this when they are certifying new aeroplanes to include a percentage who ignore rules for evacuation purposes.
Another recent behavior change in the last decade or two is the massive increase in cabin baggage compared to the previous decades, driven by the LCC checked bag fee. People's default behavior is now to bring as much as possible into the cabin, whereas back in the 70's the first thing you thought of when you go to the airport was to check in as much luggage as possible.
 
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speedbird707
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:41 pm

IMO the laptop bags or purses are not as much of an issue as a full on piece of carry on luggage. We have seen many examples, and even commented on, over the years of evacuations with people lugging their possessions. Air France in Toronto could have turned out to be a tragedy if the evacuation had not worked...but it did, bags an all.

The no shoes and bags rule was from the 60 or 70's before the advent of laptops, tablets, or video players. There is the sense of possession of stuff too. The thoughts go through your head of "if i leave it (i.e. passport, wallet, computer etc) when or how would I ever get it back.

In today's world of material possessions, I do not think there is any practical way to prevent the small bags from leaving with the pax...

So now the ludicrous...why not design a locking mechanism that prevents the opening of the overhead bins in the event of an emergency...I said ludicrous, because of the weight, and cost of it, but it could cause the big bags to remain behind...
 
G-CIVP
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:48 pm

Quoting n797mx (Thread starter):
maybe a $1000 fine

Where an earth do you get these ideas from? Suffice to say, if an aircraft is going up in smoke, with fire and smoke in the cabin, I suspect passengers wouldn't be as reticent to leave personal belongings behind!
 
rwessel
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:18 pm

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 8):
Suffice to say, if an aircraft is going up in smoke, with fire and smoke in the cabin, I suspect passengers wouldn't be as reticent to leave personal belongings behind!

Check out the photo of the Asiana 214 evacuation at the top of:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/09/world/asia/asiana-flight-attendant/
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:23 pm

I can see people who have medicine in their bags making a life-saving (in their mind) effort to retrieve the bag. Who wants to be stuck in a city away from home with no medicine and no doctor to get more. I can also see mothers grabbing the diaper bag with baby formula, etc. The uncertainty of what amenities will be made available to the pax is a big factor driving this bahavior.

We've all heard the horror stories of people who walk away from a crash only to end up in the hopital later because the crash investation prevented them from getting the medicine/medical device they left behind during the evacuation. (probably just another urban legend)

One other thing to keep in mind is many people in that situation are in shock and not thinking clearly.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
G-CIVP
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 9):
Check out the photo of the Asiana 214 evacuation at the top of:

Two comments in reply. British Airtours crash at Manchester 1985; the nature of the accidents was such that a number of passengers and crew died within the first ninety seconds of the incident. In the analysis of the accidents post-event, there was a scramble for the available exits. It was completely unlike the Asiana accident at SFO.

Second, using BA762 as an example, to fine passengers when they can litigate for damages, e.g. compensation for injuries caused during the exvacuation, it would be unethical (under the law in England & Wales) to then fine them for carrying off hand luggage while exiting the aircraft in an emergency.
 
DualQual
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:35 pm

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 8):

Never underestimate the stupidity of people.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
ubeema
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:44 pm

We cannot expect the best from humans in situation like this unfortunately.

When panic and fear set in we stop thinking rationally and become selfish or worst reckless!
 
G-CIVP
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting DualQual (Reply 12):
Never underestimate the stupidity of people.

Quite. Different people react differently in different situations. You can't expect people to act uniformly in an aircraft accident.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting DualQual (Reply 12):
Never underestimate the stupidity of people.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/passengers-...idaho-fuel-spill/story?id=31739301


My absolute favorite evacuation photo. Where did these passengers think they were going to go with their rollerbags?
 
bennett123
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:49 pm

If the smell of fuel was that strong, perhaps the crew should have started talking to the passengers, and explaining the situation.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:11 pm

On the Titanic and other liners of the day, something not widely communicated was the equipment issued to pursers and stewards for when they man the lifeboats if the ship should be sinking. In a panic, many passengers in the water may approach in desperation an already fully laden lifeboat. If the lifeboat should be in dire threat due to this, the steward caries a revolver to, as a last resort, shoot the passenger posing mortal risk to the lives of the many on the boat, knowing there is no reasoning with someone who is in a self-absorbed panic.

In the same way, airlines are only certified to allow 90sec for a full evacuation in case of a fire. This DOES NOT allow for passengers to take their cabin luggage with them. For that you can count about 10mins or more. Do the math: a self centred passenger going for their luggage in a fire evacuation will probably cause the death of many other passengers.

Is that any less dangerous than the lifeboat example; probably a lot more...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:35 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 15):

If the smell of fuel was that strong, perhaps the crew should have started talking to the passengers, and explaining the situation.

No one disagrees with that. That question being asked is:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 15):
Where did these passengers think they were going to go with their rollerbags?

And the answer is nowhere
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:01 pm

Evacuation commands shouted by Flight Attendants at HA include the command to, "STAND BACK, LEAVE EVERYTHING," while the door is opened & slide inflates. I would assume every airline has something similar.

As a crew, your goal has to be to get everyone out ASAP once evacuation is initiated. If a passenger is standing at the door with a bag, its time for them to jump (or you to push them if needed)...not for you to fight with them about the bag.

-Aloha!

[Edited 2015-07-15 14:05:17]
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
2175301
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:24 pm

In a truly nasty situation I suspect few, if any, people will take belongings. They will pack themselves to the exists as fast as possible.

In a less than truly nasty situation... people believe (usually correctly) that they have a few minutes. In the later case I am taking my rollerbag that is full of medical equipment and medicines. Even if the insurance company immediately authorized replacement (which is doubtful), and even if I could get prescriptions transferred immediately (ha ha ha) or replaced by a local Dr. (not going to happen for certain things without access to specific medical records); it would likely take days to reassemble key things that are in that bag.

I would leave behind the computer briefcase bag. Its quickly replaceable in almost any city, and routinely backed up. I can replace or recreate any business materials I am carrying.


Have a great day,
 
bwaflyer
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:25 pm

One of the arguments against locking overhead bins is the issue of the lock jamming with a fire inside. With the exponential increase in lithium batteries carried on board, many of which will be sitting in the overhead, we crew want easy access to the locker in an emergency. You can't legislate for stupidity - it's hard enough getting people to wear a bloody seatbelt for take off!
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:04 pm

Let's try this post again without the minor swearing. :p

I know the briefings in NZ clearly state to leave your stuff behind and get out of the plane in such a situation.

However as mentioned earlier, in a nasty crash people are going to panic and when you panic you do stupid stuff. So I'm not surprised people are doing this in the more violent crashes. You just switch to autopilot with a dose of flight adrenaline so grab your bag. Hell, I'm pretty sure I'd have to fight down the urge to grab my backpack under the seat and that has a first aid kit in it which could be useful.

The idea of locking the overhead lockers is interesting though I can't easily see how you could do it properly.
 
Wingtips56
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:24 am

Your stuff doesn't do you any good if you don't get out. So how does one make a split decision on whether this is no big deal and you can take all your stuff out with you, or if you all depend on each other to keep the aisle and door clear so you can all get out in just the few seconds you may have? Answer.... get off the airplane now, and worry about questions and belongings later.

So you have to wait hours or days to get your stuff back? Oh, boo hoo.... you survived. Hopefully your family did too, not stuck behind a bunch of luggage in the aisle or a tray table down and seat back left in full recline.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
NickLAX
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RE: Emergency Evacuations And Pax Taking Belongings

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:24 am

I've come off aircraft twice in the last 25 years on the slides or on a CRJ on the runway with the door stairs. BOTH times I left all my items. I have a habit now of phone and passport in my pocket on departure and shoes on until at least wheels up (a lot of people in biz/first on intl have shoes off before pushback)... Do the same on arrival.

The rest of the stuff in my bag is "nice to have" but it can all be replaced. No reason to risk trying to grab it in a true emergency. In the CRJ issue - engine fire prior to departure crew had us off QUICK on the main door as engine #2 had a fire/smoke issue. A pax tried to grab items from the overhead - the FA (think it was Comair DL crew - long time ago) VERY loudly told him to STOP and get off...

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