Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:43 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 91):
I don't think management actually does know they real reasons it was rejected yet. They read this stuff, but the post-mortem is a long way from being complete.

Folks smart enough to manage an airline are smart enough to know why this TA failed. Thinking that they don't know is just repeating the mind games DL plays with its employee groups. This time the management and MEC failed in outsmarting the pilots. They saw through the smokescreen and finally grew a backbone.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 99):
exactly. company wide profit sharing cuts not only paid for the TA it saved the company, IIRC, 200M.

Correct, this contract was an instant cost savings for DL on profit sharing alone. I remember it being at least $100m, so your $200m may be right.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3167
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:25 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 99):

Oh and finally, You pissed away your HIPA rights and now the company has complete control over your medical. Hope nothing happens to you, have fun under the bridge if you do.

I've been concerned about how much the company wants to know about my medical info. It seems every year that want to have more access to my stats. Do you smoke, have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, overweight. They do this by letting us earn money towards our medical deductible if we volunteer this info. They say it is to promote a healthier workforce that can lower the companies healthcare costs. I think it is a little intrusive.

I personally am one of the guys that are pretty healthy in the middle age bracket. I just don't think it is their business to know. I let them keep their deductible money.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:52 pm

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 101):

I've been concerned about how much the company wants to know about my medical info. It seems every year that want to have more access to my stats. Do you smoke, have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, overweight. They do this by letting us earn money towards our medical deductible if we volunteer this info. They say it is to promote a healthier workforce that can lower the companies healthcare costs. I think it is a little intrusive.

I personally am one of the guys that are pretty healthy in the middle age bracket. I just don't think it is their business to know. I let them keep their deductible money.

Excellent point that can be expanded to other employee groups as well.

HIPA offers some protection but the firm wants you to waive your legal protections. You can be assured it will be used against you at some point if they deem it advantageous. Many pilots that I have spoken with admit that they have an "off the books" MD they see before they go for the official FAA physical. Pay cash for the exam, drive a few extra miles away from home and keep your information private. There is just too much at stake to have a questionable lab result or EKG so no surprises is the way to go.

It is unquestionably intrusive. But more and more insurance companies are pressuring MD's to share your medical information via a system where all of your medical information, regardless of source, will be stored centrally--your right to privacy will be a memory. Punch in a name, DOB and the last four of the SSN and your entire life is open to them. This is already being done with prescriptions. No more going to one doc for an anti-depressant or sleeping aid and then going to another for a duplicate. The one exception to this was the Veterans Administration but IIRC I recently read that they will be sharing their information with others in the system.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:30 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 87):
not completely true. They took the 777s and parked them.
And wasn't it over the crew rest not the pay scale?

First of all there was no crew rest in he original 777 aircraft so you are spot on there. The crew rest issue was an MD11 problem that I don't believe was ever solved prior to the airplanes being sold. As for the 777 we started flying them right away on the N. Atlantic CDG and LGW along with ATL-MCO.
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:01 pm

What many of you don't know is that there is already a MASSIVE medical "data base" run by the insurance companies. It's been in place for YEARS: 25-30 to be sure. EVERY treatment you've had in this time is maintained in this system and provides a sort of "credit rating" for medical purposes. So, newsflash: this privacy issue isn't "coming," it's NOW.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 103):
First of all there was no crew rest in he original 777 aircraft so you are spot on there. The crew rest issue was an MD11 problem that I don't believe was ever solved prior to the airplanes being sold. As for the 777 we started flying them right away on the N. Atlantic CDG and LGW along with ATL-MCO.

DL's pilot and f/a crew rest are very comfortable and reasonably quiet. The A330 f/a and B767 have their crew rests below deck and you always seem to get someone thinking the door is a rest room or a screaming kid right above your head.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21570
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):

These orders were part of a strategy that is on hold. Like many others here, I consider the orders differed not cancelled.

I also see a shift in demand since DL first announced these orders. It could just be an excuse to retune the orders. I hope to see DL grow. If not, more NK, G4, and B6.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 102):

The trend to centrally managed medical information is a given. I personally do not want my employer knowing details other than what is required for work. But a visit or a prescription of 48 hours no work is OK. For example, I was late to work yesterday as I saw a doctor. I have no problem with them knowing that limited info. But is my business why I saw a 2nd doctor that day. They get to know I had a physical that meets or exceeds their guidelines. We will have to balance employee privacy versus abuse of sick time.

DL could do what my employer did: vacation and sick pay comes out of the same pool for each employee. We have our vacation, 3 added days for sick, and 2 for religious holidays not on the standard holiday schedule. We're allowed 5 days off without advance notice and another 5 without notice for dependent care (relatives only, includes in-laws) that just requires an email after the event saying it was for dependent care. We staff 24/7 with specialists that must be available.

But the above system results in a cut in days off as the sum of days is less. Senior employees who were using every sick day lost 2 weeks per year plus any religious holidays they tacked on. New hires who took no sick or special days off gained a few days as sick days became vacation. There are those that abuse the system. I took few sick days. About a third of coworkers took every one. The later is unfair unless truely ill. Generous systems are abused. It sounds like DL has that issue.



Lightsaber
4 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
surfdog75
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:39 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 97):
BTW...there really is no ill will. The folks I am referring to have a very high opinion of the pilot group in general and place great value on the relationship between the company and the pilots. I think they thought the MEC was in tune with the body. They were pretty surprised by the vote, but accept it and will work to find a deal that works for everyone.

That's good to hear. Almost everybody I work with is very appreciative of the management team we have in place. They have done a fantastic job with almost everything. I personally think Richard is a genius and I'm very happy he's at DL. That said, pilots are the only group on property that lost their pensions during bankruptcy. That was combined with massive pay cuts to help save the company. The expectation was that would be at least partially repaid when times were good. This TA resulted in about a 4.75% annual raise over the 3 years when profit sharing was reduced. Nothing to sneeze at for sure but when it was combined with contractual concessions in other areas it was sorely lacking. There is also a lot of unknown regarding the medical issues in my opinion which made it much easier to just say no.
 
User avatar
DL_Mech
Posts: 2604
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 7:48 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 103):
The crew rest issue was an MD11 problem that I don't believe was ever solved prior to the airplanes being sold.

I think the issue with the MD-11 was that there was no changing area next to the pull out bunks at the 1L door. Eventually retractable solid partitions were installed adjacent to the cockpit and 1L door, and the MD-11 ended its days at DL on the ATL-NRT run.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2265
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:03 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 97):
That said, they didn't WANT this to happen. They just can't believe the pilots turned down what what would have been hundreds of millions in extra pay over some of the issues it seems they did it for. Again, it a perspective thing. Management knows what the new contract would have cost them versus today. I think the MEC did as well. Not sure the general pilot population gets it, but oh well.

If they can't believe it they didn't understand what was most important to the pilots. Don't be too quick to dismiss the general pilot population; most of us are modestly bright and some of us have advanced degrees (I have two including one in management). It may be YOUR perspective that it was foolish to vote no, but clearly an overwhelming percentage of the people most affected by the TA disagree with you, and they are the only ones whose votes ultimately mean anything.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 97):
I think they thought the MEC was in tune with the body.

But clearly that was entirely incorrect.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 98):
That is generally the read that I am getting-- how the MEC behaves over the next couple weeks will determine a lot, in particular.

I agree with you: this is the MEC's failing to pass a deal so wholly unpopular with the membership shows how out of touch they are. If they take a professional course here and poll their membership honestly and reengage with the company with their new data, this can be fixed easily by the amendable date. If they try the hard line ALPA mentality this will take a while.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 98):
I have concerns that the ego driven lifers at DALPA will lash out at the pilots they are supposed to represent. There is already one kerfluffle started by one on facebook where some very high up players, including lee moak, liked. That needs to be reeled in, and yesterday.

I haven't seen what you're referring to XFSU, but it doesn't surprise me unfortunately. ALPA has a way of coming across as smug, arrogant, and claiming they know what's good for the line pilots more than the line pilots themselves. If they go that route I think all bets are off. Make no mistake: this is a HUGE blow to ALPA and a giant embarrassment to the Delta MEC, and they should feel body slammed. Whether they search for a scapegoat or gather themselves up an move forward tactfully is up to them, but I am sure the Delta pilots will be watching them like a hawk.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 99):
Not sure what to tell you other than i doubt that commoners understand the finances of this more than the people Im hearing from. Its that simple. Ah try not to look down on us commoners to much. Some of us are not quite as "common" as one would think. having said that, are you going to just go by what people tell you or do the right thing and compare the TA to c12 and do the math or not? Of course the company people are saying its a great deal. My guess is if you were a pilot and you were about to be hit by the changes you would be in the 65% that voted no too.

Thanks 1011man: agreed. Please jetlanta...you've said some wholly incorrect things in this thread; to now look down on us "commoners" who fly the line for any airline with the judgment that the pilots made an error here is unproductive at best. Like I said above, pilots may not all have MBA's (though some of us do), be we are VERY adept at doing basic math and visualizing how rule changes will be used with regard to our quality of life. Many of us have been doing this for many, many contracts, far longer than you've been a consultant. I honestly do appreciate your perspective, but I don't care who you've been talking to, the pilots decided this was not a good deal for them, and this wasn't an effort by Delta's pilots to turn down more money in any shape, form, or fashion. This was not a vote about dollars, as many have said, and whether management you know is telling you what a great deal it was (and that is what you'd expect them to say) and how foolish the pilot group was, it's irrelevant. The TA was WILDLY unpopular for a reason.

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 107):
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 97):BTW...there really is no ill will. The folks I am referring to have a very high opinion of the pilot group in general and place great value on the relationship between the company and the pilots. I think they thought the MEC was in tune with the body. They were pretty surprised by the vote, but accept it and will work to find a deal that works for everyone.That's good to hear. Almost everybody I work with is very appreciative of the management team we have in place. They have done a fantastic job with almost everything. I personally think Richard is a genius and I'm very happy he's at DL. That said, pilots are the only group on property that lost their pensions during bankruptcy. That was combined with massive pay cuts to help save the company. The expectation was that would be at least partially repaid when times were good. This TA resulted in about a 4.75% annual raise over the 3 years when profit sharing was reduced. Nothing to sneeze at for sure but when it was combined with contractual concessions in other areas it was sorely lacking. There is also a lot of unknown regarding the medical issues in my opinion which made it much easier to just say no.

VERY well put surfdog. Most Delta employees I know are very impressed with Anderson and management; the Delta pilots I know largely think the company outnegotiated the union, and the MEC bears the responsibility of this calamity far more than the company. I have no doubt that management at Delta has no ill will towards the pilot group in general, but I imagine they ARE shocked by the results of the TA vote because I would certainly think the negotiators for ALPA convinced them that it would pass by at least 50%+1 based on the rates despite the sick, scope, etc., concessions.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:47 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 109):
Thanks 1011man: agreed. Please jetlanta...you've said some wholly incorrect things in this thread; to now look down on us "commoners" who fly the line for any airline with the judgment that the pilots made an error here is unproductive at best.

I don't believe the "commoners" referred to are the rank and file of the pilots, but all the other workgroups at DL that are also affected by this. BTW, the pilots come across as the only ones that have ever given anything up or sacrificed for the company. The seem to forget about us "commoners" or at least they did when I was still working and it seems, from some of the statements on this thread, that this attitude is still out there.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2265
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:28 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 110):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 109):Thanks 1011man: agreed. Please jetlanta...you've said some wholly incorrect things in this thread; to now look down on us "commoners" who fly the line for any airline with the judgment that the pilots made an error here is unproductive at best.I don't believe the "commoners" referred to are the rank and file of the pilots, but all the other workgroups at DL that are also affected by this. BTW, the pilots come across as the only ones that have ever given anything up or sacrificed for the company. The seem to forget about us "commoners" or at least they did when I was still working and it seems, from some of the statements on this thread, that this attitude is still out there.

If that is the case, then I misread his intentions. I don't think I or anyone else has ever said that the pilots were the only ones who sacrificed at Delta or anywhere else, but they WERE the one Delta group that lost their pensions. Since this thread is about the PILOT'S TA it makes sense that the comments here are about the PILOTS.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:58 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:12 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 111):
If that is the case, then I misread his intentions. I don't think I or anyone else has ever said that the pilots were the only ones who sacrificed at Delta or anywhere else, but they WERE the one Delta group that lost their pensions.

Not by their own choice, they didn't. If they would have had a choice, would they, then? We don't know, do we? The other workgroups didn't have a choice, either, but since the Pension Protection Act was passed, they didn't have to worrry about it. Yes, the other workgroups had their pensions frozen, but it it STILL there, gaining no interest since that time, but still there for them to collect once they are eligible. It was all a bad situation for everyone involved. Kind of embarassing, actually, because DL always considered themselves financially responsible, so to file bankruptcy (which I never thought I would see) was rather shocking, even after a few years of losses, many never thought it would come to that. Perhaps a little naive, but that's the way it was.

Anyway, I'd like to apologize for accusing you of that, but I know I've read that about some of the pilots over the years.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
N1120A
Posts: 26650
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:48 am

Quoting raddek (Reply 28):
find a way to go Chapter 11 to wipe out these fat contracts that they will have on hand. Just my 0.02 cents.

WN doesn't have big defined benefit pensions to dump on the PBGC.

Quoting nwadeicer (Reply 70):
Don't agree with this contract? We'll show you!

Pilots are very different from mechanics. It takes a very long time to train a competent pilot, and there is a shortage anyway.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Prost
Posts: 2603
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:30 am

Mayor: Out on the line there doesn't seem to be any division with the pilots, at least not between FAs and Pilots. We don't have a union, obviously, but we know our wagon is hitched to the pilots. I haven't sensed animosity towards the pilots since the deal went down, and I haven't experienced any sanctimonious pilots pontificating. The silence on the line is actually kind of eerie.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:42 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 114):
Mayor: Out on the line there doesn't seem to be any division with the pilots, at least not between FAs and Pilots. We don't have a union, obviously, but we know our wagon is hitched to the pilots. I haven't sensed animosity towards the pilots since the deal went down, and I haven't experienced any sanctimonious pilots pontificating. The silence on the line is actually kind of eerie.

Prost is correct--there is no real discussion going on about the rejected TA--at least not outside the pilot group.

Pilot contracts are very complicated--their pay is determined by the equipment they fly but sick leave use/abuse is a very touchy subject at most every airline. I have a friend that retired with 900 hours of accrued time on the books and we get no payout for time not used if you retire so we all thought he was nuts. In all honesty I would say that most employees would not walk away with that kind of money left on the table. They would come up with some excuse to use it up in the year or two before retiring. It would not take a genius in payroll to figure out what was going on but as long as you provide medical evidence of a need to use it there is not much the company can do (except make your life miserable).

There is a substantial difference in the way different employee groups deal with contract issues. Pilots tend to deal with the arithmetic, flight attendants deal with emotion and a sense of what is "right" in their eyes. This will resolve eventually.

[Edited 2015-07-21 03:45:36]
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
DeltaMD95
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:37 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:54 pm

In the near-term, this appears to be good news for MD88 fans. Could delay the full retirement by a year or two, compared to if those orders, (including the rumored E190 follow up), were signed, sealed and delivered yesterday. Here's hoping that Boeing finds another suitor for those 20 frames they're sitting on.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2265
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 112):
Anyway, I'd like to apologize for accusing you of that, but I know I've read that about some of the pilots over the years.

Mayor:

Thank you for your words and viewpoint. I can never recall intentionally trying to pit any employee group against another, and have on numerous occasions praised mechanics, FAs, and agents specifically (I was an agent in college, BTW, and I am very sympathetic to their plight.) Prost's point seems to be the case from what I know of the situation, and the relative public quiet and calm demeanor between the management and the MEC hopefully signals that constructive and professional consultations are in progress and are proceeding in a levelheaded way.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2583
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:41 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 87):
exactly. Its a power struggle.
The company wanted to get this TA passed before Q2 numbers came in because they have been telling the union things are getting bad. That and the airplane order was the only leverage.

So achieving a $1 Billion in (quarterly) profit are things getting bad? Try again DL.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1664
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:01 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 109):
Please jetlanta...you've said some wholly incorrect things in this thread; to now look down on us "commoners" who fly the line for any airline with the judgment that the pilots made an error here is unproductive at best.

You did indeed misread me. I was using the term in response to a previous post (which was quoted in my post).

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 91):
This, on the other hand, did not come from me. It may not be 18 months in reality, but I can assure you there are people that matter who believe it likely will. The assumption is that a new MEC will need to be put in place. I think, by the way, that they are negotiating in good faith and believe that they have a good relationship with the pilots. They are a bit shocked that they won't be paying those raises they had budgeted for.
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 91):
Again, what i've heard is that some expect that a new MEC will likely need to be elected. That, along with the discovery process for what the issues are, getting the new MEC trained for negotiations, and the actual discussions, will all take longer than most of you seem to expect.

Now, if the current MEC survives, it may not take so long. Look, no one is panicking and no one seems to be too angry with pilots. There is a sense of cooperation here that is pretty deep. The deal was soundly rejected. Management wants to know why, then build a better mutually beneficial agreement. I don't get the sense that there is really any bad blood. The company actually save a lot of money over the next year or two because of the rejection. Go figure.

Anyone care to dispute the above now?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: a320fan, Alfons, aytdxb, B-HOP, Baidu [Spider], chiad, co38, deltacto, DL220MSP, EagleStar, Europecc, gift4tbone, Google Adsense [Bot], GoSharks, intotheair, JAmie2k9, Jarod, jrfspa320, Ndebele, openskies88, Singapore 777, SQ317, tommy1808, trinidadeG and 151 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos