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KarelXWB
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DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:02 pm

About one month ago, DL intended to buy 40 737-900ER and 20 E-190 jets:

Delta To Buy 40 739ER And 20 E190 (by phxa340 Jun 10 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Richard Anderson now said the order will be canceled:

http://twitter.com/airkarp/status/621332458869497856

Quote:
CEO Richard Anderson: Delta's order for 40 new 737-900ERs & 20 used E-190s will be canceled owing to pilots' rejection of labor agreement.
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777X
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:04 pm

NO! I was really looking forward to seeing the E-190 in DL colors!

Is there any news on a cancellation of the 787 order?
 
nikeherc
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:08 pm

Bargaining ploy perhaps?
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
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Stitch
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting 777X (Reply 1):
Is there any news on a cancellation of the 787 order?
Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):
Bargaining ploy perhaps?

The 737 and E-190 order was an incentive by DL management to get the pilots to approve the agreement as those planes would have been flown by DL pilots, not affiliates. So when the pilots voted against the plan, DL removed the incentive. No other current orders DL has in place with Boeing (or Airbus) should be at risk at the moment.

That being said, Air Canada did the same thing with their 777-200LR and 777-300ER order when their pilots voted against a new contract. The pilots eventually did come to an agreement and AC renewed the order. So I would not be surprised that when DL's pilots come to an agreement, the 737s, at least, will be added back (and the E190s, if still available).

[Edited 2015-07-15 08:09:43]
 
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Matt6461
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:10 pm

Hmmm. AA announces order deferrals, DL announces order cancellation shortly thereafter. Maybe the cartel expects UA and WN to follow next? Honestly Anderson could have knowingly driven unacceptable terms to get this cancellation... Not saying that's definitely what happened, obviously, but I'm sure this will be on DOJ's radar.
 
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Polot
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:11 pm

Quoting 777X (Reply 1):
Is there any news on a cancellation of the 787 order?

No, and with the favorable pricing they know doubt have on the 787 from NW being an earlier customer, and likely lack of penalties from cancelling due to all the delays, albeit some that DL pushed back themselves, it is probably worth it for DL to keep it on the books until they fully decide what to do with them (take delivery or convert to something else).

Note that this order was never firmed, and even in the initial press release back in June the very first sentence says the order will come after "it ratifies a tentative agreement with its pilots."
 
jbs2886
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:12 pm

The order was never announced by Boeing and on their books, publicly. Unless someone figured out it was an undisclosed?
 
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Stitch
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:17 pm

Quoting matt6461 (Reply 4):
Hmmm. AA announces order deferrals, DL announces order cancellation shortly thereafter. Maybe the cartel expects UA and WN to follow next? Honestly Anderson could have knowingly driven unacceptable terms to get this cancellation... Not saying that's definitely what happened, obviously, but I'm sure this will be on DOJ's radar.

From what I have read, DL's offer to their pilots would have made them some of, if not the, most highly-paid in the US market, at least. The main hang-up seems to have been the reduction in profit-sharing, which the pilots (and other DL employees) have benefited quite well from recently with the record earnings DL has been posting as of late (equivalent to almost 17% of their base pay).


Quoting jbs2886 (Reply 6):
The order was never announced by Boeing and on their books, publicly.

Correct. If the pilots had approved the contract, Delta would have placed the order. So no reduction in the current 737NG order book, but an opportunity loss (at least for now) to increase it.

[Edited 2015-07-15 08:20:47]
 
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enilria
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:23 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):

Yuh think?  
Quoting matt6461 (Reply 4):

What with such lackluster earnings, it's definitely time to cancel orders.  
 
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chrisnh
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):
Bargaining ploy perhaps?

No one's opinion but my own, but THIS is why the ME3 are light-years ahead of the US3 in terms of re-equipping their fleets. THIS is why UA and AA and DL fly tired 757s across the ocean while the ME3 fly new metal. These 'bargaining ploys' gum up the works!
 
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enilria
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 9):

Keep in mind the E190s are far from new, so either way it does little to catch them up to the ME3, but it does show that fleet renewal has nothing to do with the customer.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:00 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):
Bargaining ploy perhaps?

The potential order was a rotten carrot dangled in front of the pilots. DL needs to start treating its employees like adults. They have a brain. DL could make this order today. It has nothing to do with a new pilot contract.
 
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Stitch
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:00 pm

Well it's not like Delta (or United or American) is (are) not renewing their fleets. Delta did order 100 737-900ERs in 2011, after all. And when they need those 40 new planes, Delta will place an order with Boeing (or Airbus).
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 9):
THIS is why UA and AA and DL fly tired 757s across the ocean while the ME3 fly new metal.

To be fair, the reason the US3 fly 757s on TATL routes is because customers prefer higher frequency.
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 13):
To be fair, the reason the US3 fly 757s on TATL routes is because customers prefer higher frequency.

on flights from the US to hubs such as LHR and CDG, yes. But as far as secondary European cities are concerned, it's either the 757 or no service at all. Nothing to do with frequency.

[Edited 2015-07-15 09:15:29]
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scbriml
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:14 pm

Thread title should probably say "DL delays placing orders".

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 13):
To be fair, the reason the US3 fly 757s on TATL routes is because customers prefer higher frequency.

Out of interest, on which TATL routes are US3 using 757s that also have other frequencies?

[Edited 2015-07-15 09:15:37]
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rta
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:20 pm

Well, I suppose thats good news regarding the 739.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 15):
Out of interest, on which TATL routes are US3 using 757s that also have other frequencies?

AA JFK-CDG (i think one 767 one 757)
UA EWR-CDG (previously one 767 one 757 future consolidated to single 777)
UA EWR-LHR (previously, now all widebody)

these are just some examples.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:24 pm

1970s Auto Industry negotiating tactic.....lame.
 
ScottB
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 15):
Out of interest, on which TATL routes are US3 using 757s that also have other frequencies?

EWR-DUB, EWR-CDG (from 1-Aug), BOS-CDG (when counting the alliance partner).
 
Andy33
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:44 pm

AA/US PHL-LHR 1 x 757, 1 x A333?
 
row44seatk
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:03 pm

AA/US PHL-AMS 1 x 757
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deltal1011man
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting 777X (Reply 1):
NO! I was really looking forward to seeing the E-190 in DL colors!

You will don't worry.

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):
Bargaining ploy perhaps?

it is literally the only thing Delta had to hold over the pilots heads. Anderson knows he isn't going to get concessions unless he has leverage. The company simply doesn't have any when they make 1.6 billion in a single QUARTER. They tried to create some.

simple facts. Delta ordered those 739s to replace higher paying jets (757) that isn't a loss for the pilots. Delta is going to have to hire a ton of pilots with or without the E90s as it is and the numbers are only going to go up as more and more pilots hit age 65. Finally the current contract is simply a better contract and the pilots are going to end up getting a "me too" raise anyways.
And as i have said before, the E90s (or as i said in the past 717) are coming anyways.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):

The 737 and E-190 order was an incentive by DL management to get the pilots to approve the agreement as those planes would have been flown by DL pilots, not affiliates.

they still can't be flown be affiliates FWIW.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):

From what I have read, DL's offer to their pilots would have made them some of, if not the, most highly-paid in the US market, at least.

this is true. Money doesn't mean as much when your QOL goes down the drain or Air France is doing your flying.....

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
The main hang-up seems to have been the reduction in profit-sharing, which the pilots (and other DL employees) have benefited quite well from recently with the record earnings DL has been posting as of late (equivalent to almost 17% of their base pay).

It was profit sharing, sick time, FO bidding and scope.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):

Correct. If the pilots had approved the contract, Delta would have placed the order. So no reduction in the current 737NG order book, but an opportunity loss (at least for now) to increase it.

as i said before, I'm not sure its an opportunity loss. Adding lower paying aircraft that will replace higher paying aircraft isn't a win for the pilots. Can't get the shinny jet syndrome. 757s pay more than 739s or 321s....

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 11):

The potential order was a rotten carrot dangled in front of the pilots. DL needs to start treating its employees like adults. They have a brain. DL could make this order today. It has nothing to do with a new pilot contract.

exactly.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):

1970s Auto Industry negotiating tactic.....lame.

2015 auto industry tactic. Notice Ford moving Focus and C-max production to Mexico right before negations start with the UAW.......
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
But as far as secondary European cities are concerned, it's either the 757 or no service at all. Nothing to do with frequency.

You're right. But this fact is even better when defending TATL 757 service: either you get it with the 757, or not at all. Personally, I'd rather sit on a narrow body for a TATL flight than add one more connection to my itinerary.
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ual777
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:46 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 9):

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):
Bargaining ploy perhaps?

No one's opinion but my own, but THIS is why the ME3 are light-years ahead of the US3 in terms of re-equipping their fleets. THIS is why UA and AA and DL fly tired 757s across the ocean while the ME3 fly new metal. These 'bargaining ploys' gum up the works!

This is a joke right?
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rojo
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
it is literally the only thing Delta had to hold over the pilots heads. Anderson knows he isn't going to get concessions unless he has leverage. The company simply doesn't have any when they make 1.6 billion in a single QUARTER. They tried to create some.

Making $1.6 billion in single quarter doesn't mean you have to give half to employees (and to one group specifically). During good times, unions want the moon and the stars... it happened in the 90's. In 10 years I predict all US big airlines to go back to Chapter 11 to get their costs in line. How can a pilot make $300K a year when I see analysts and managers who after 30 years working for one of the US Big 4 airlines don't make more than $75K (and they have an undergrad and grad degree). When people get greedy, they just want more and more... but wait until capacity in the US outpaces demand (yes NK and F9 will keep adding it until they become huge like FR and U2 in Europe), then airlines will start losing money thanks to insanely high labor costs. Competition will keep fares in line and airlines will not be able to increase fares in key route to keep paying those salaries... just my 0.02
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:11 pm

Quoting rojo (Reply 25):
Making $1.6 billion in single quarter doesn't mean you have to give half to employees (and to one group specifically).

who said anything about that at all? You clearly have no idea what your talking about just doing the typical anet shot in the dark at labor.

Keep up, the TA wasn't rejected due to money, it was due to the company expecting the pilots to take concessions, not even cost neutral, in times when the company is going to make 6B this year.

Quoting rojo (Reply 25):
During good times, unions want the moon and the stars... it happened in the 90's. In 10 years I predict all US big airlines to go back to Chapter 11 to get their costs in line.

The moon and the stars? again, refer back to the not knowing what you are talking about shot in the dark comment

Quoting rojo (Reply 25):
How can a pilot make $300K a year when I see analysts and managers who after 30 years working for one of the US Big 4 airlines don't make more than $75K (and they have an undergrad and grad degree)

could be because a pilot can have anywhere from 50 to 300+ lives literally in his/her hand. Managers don't generally save airplanes from crashing. Matter of fact they generally push to the point of just being unsafe to save a cent. Sometimes they past the point to save a cent. GIVE THEM A RAISE THOUGH!  
Quoting rojo (Reply 25):
When people get greedy, they just want more and more... but wait until capacity in the US outpaces demand (yes NK and F9 will keep adding it until they become huge like FR and U2 in Europe), then airlines will start losing money thanks to insanely high labor costs

Ah yes....it is always our worthless faults. Labor is nothing but greedy ass hats that run the company into the ground. Always our fault and your beloved managers and analysts have NOTHING to do with it. GMAFB

I should take a pay cut so you sleep better at night. Let me call Georgia power and see if your line here will pay my light bill.  
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:22 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 22):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):

1970s Auto Industry negotiating tactic.....lame.

2015 auto industry tactic. Notice Ford moving Focus and C-max production to Mexico right before negations start with the UAW.......

True - but unlike the 1970s both are basically idle threats in this era. Both with are relics of a archaic era in organized labor relations and negotiating.
 
raddek
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting rojo (Reply 25):
but wait until capacity in the US outpaces demand (yes NK and F9 will keep adding it until they
become huge like FR and U2 in Europe), then airlines will start losing money thanks to insanely high labor costs.
Competition will keep fares in line and airlines will not be able to increase fares in key route to keep paying those
salaries... just my 0.02

Hit the nail right on the head there! NK and F9 will grow and grow and their cost advantages will stay low, as the legacies
will all hit Chapter 11 again in 10 years.

This is a little left wing and out there, but I think with all the high labor that WN will be facing in the coming years, they may
find a way to go Chapter 11 to wipe out these fat contracts that they will have on hand. Just my 0.02 cents.

But for DL to go there and hang a plane order in front on their pilots, to me is a shady move to for a company that is making
hand over fist of cash these days.
 
ual777
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:49 pm

Quoting raddek (Reply 28):

And you don't think NK and especially F9's pilots won't want raises? The legacy pilot groups are getting younger in terms of pilot pay rates, not older. I think they will be ok.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:54 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 29):

And you don't think NK and especially F9's pilots won't want raises? The legacy pilot groups are getting younger in terms of pilot pay rates, not older. I think they will be ok.

hey you get that logic out of here!

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 27):

True - but unlike the 1970s both are basically idle threats in this era. Both with are relics of a archaic era in organized labor relations and negotiating.

agreed.

It is honestly this stuff that just annoys me about airline management and labor. Sit down and get a good deal, for both sides, done. Stop trying to put carrots out for one another.
 
rojo
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:29 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 26):
who said anything about that at all? You clearly have no idea what your talking about just doing the typical anet shot in the dark at labor.

Keep up, the TA wasn't rejected due to money, it was due to the company expecting the pilots to take concessions, not even cost neutral, in times when the company is going to make 6B this year.

I do have a perfect idea of what I'm talking about... the TA was rejected, that's what counts. And Profit Sharing is money, even if you don't want to consider it as money, but they want more based on the old formula combined with better pay rates. Not a trade off but everything has to be better.

It is not about taking concessions, it is about understanding that every time an airline goes into negotiations with its pilots, they think that everything has to go up and up and up until it is unsustainable... that sets the bar high and makes pilots at other airlines want more and more and more. The result is almost every major airline going into Chapter 11 and I'm sure it will happen again because supply and demand regulate fares but economics do not apply to labor costs (except for non-unionized labor).

And remember, airlines in other countries don't have to pay their pilots as much as in the US. And the US is signing open skies with many countries granting access to airlines with lower labor costs... these airlines will increase capacity to the US and gain market share through hub connectivity.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 26):
Ah yes....it is always our worthless faults. Labor is nothing but greedy ass hats that run the company into the ground. Always our fault and your beloved managers and analysts have NOTHING to do with it. GMAFB

I should take a pay cut so you sleep better at night. Let me call Georgia power and see if your line here will pay my light bill.  

You don't have to take a pay cut, you can go find a job in another industry... like most people do. Ohh wait, no, you don't want that, because it is a dream being paid by an airline that will be losing money and blame management for not increasing fares in a very competitive environment (like it happened in 2007-2010).

Quoting ual777 (Reply 29):
And you don't think NK and especially F9's pilots won't want raises? The legacy pilot groups are getting younger in terms of pilot pay rates, not older. I think they will be ok.

Then you will have new airlines like Eastern getting into the market and competing with a much lower cost structure thanks to 5 year locked contracts. Just like how NK did back when they started growing (they already went through small strike back in 2010)... why do you think Allegiant and Sun Country are having big problems with their pilots. Other airlines set the bar high and pilots want the same as their piers in the majors, not just a 5% salary increase (pay rate in this case) like most people in other industries.
 
PGNCS
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:57 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 26):
Quoting rojo (Reply 25):Making $1.6 billion in single quarter doesn't mean you have to give half to employees (and to one group specifically). who said anything about that at all? You clearly have no idea what your talking about just doing the typical anet shot in the dark at labor.

Yeah, rojo: who said ANYTHING about giving half of profits to pilots; that's one of the reasons the TA went down because people wanted to keep higher profit sharing rather than have the higher fixed pay rates.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 26):
Keep up, the TA wasn't rejected due to money,

Correct: absolutely everyone I have spoken to with inside knowledge completely agrees: the TA was not defeated due to compensation.

Quoting rojo (Reply 31):
You don't have to take a pay cut, you can go find a job in another industry... like most people do. Ohh wait, no, you don't want that, because it is a dream being paid by an airline that will be losing money and blame management for not increasing fares in a very competitive environment (like it happened in 2007-2010).

The airline is not losing money, nor are any of the major US airlines projected to lose money, this is entirely your speculation; employee groups have given up much in the name of the solvency of their parent corporations, in the case of the Delta pilots, they lost their pensions (unlike the other major labor groups). They obviously felt the new TA was not acceptable. This means they will continue to live under their current contract, which doesn't have the pay raises you so oppose baked into it. At any rate, you're the one ranting that profit sharing is money, so if there's no profits, Delta would be better off anyway as a major source of income for the pilots would have vanished.

Quoting rojo (Reply 31):
I do have a perfect idea of what I'm talking about... the TA was rejected, that's what counts. And Profit Sharing is money, even if you don't want to consider it as money,

It is money: it's part of the compensation package at many companies and it's an excellent way for companies to manage risks as their labor costs go down when profits go down.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:19 am

Quoting rojo (Reply 31):

I do have a perfect idea of what I'm talking about... the TA was rejected, that's what counts. And Profit Sharing is money, even if you don't want to consider it as money, but they want more based on the old formula combined with better pay rates. Not a trade off but everything has to be better.

Profit sharing was not the main reason the TA was voted down.
As i said you don't know what you are talking about.

The main causes were not compensation but changes to work rules and scope.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 32):

Correct: absolutely everyone I have spoken to with inside knowledge completely agrees: the TA was not defeated due to compensation.

exactly. In C12 the pilots traded profit sharing for pay and work rule changes.

Quoting rojo (Reply 31):

It is not about taking concessions, it is about understanding that every time an airline goes into negotiations with its pilots, they think that everything has to go up and up and up until it is unsustainable... that sets the bar high and makes pilots at other airlines want more and more and more. The result is almost every major airline going into Chapter 11 and I'm sure it will happen again because supply and demand regulate fares but economics do not apply to labor costs (except for non-unionized labor).

Again, you are making it painfully clear you do not have the smallest idea what you are talking about. You are taking labor in general and just assuming everything is the same.

How about this, prove your knowledge of the issue and give us a keep point that IS NOT profit sharing the company is trying to change.

Quoting rojo (Reply 31):

And remember, airlines in other countries don't have to pay their pilots as much as in the US. And the US is signing open skies with many countries granting access to airlines with lower labor costs... these airlines will increase capacity to the US and gain market share through hub connectivity.

I simply do not care what "other" countries do. It is officially not my problem and the US airlines and people like you are very happy to remind me of that when i talk about something EU carrier have that we don't at US airlines.

Of course it is very clear that you don't even want airline labor to have cake, much less eat it too.

Quoting rojo (Reply 31):

You don't have to take a pay cut, you can go find a job in another industry... like most people do. Ohh wait, no, you don't want that, because it is a dream being paid by an airline that will be losing money and blame management for not increasing fares in a very competitive environment (like it happened in 2007-2010).

uh.... take exactly what you said and tell that to the managers you were b**ching about earlier.

Oh and I seem to recall airline labor taking plenty of cuts when needed. The vast majority of which were agreed to not forced by a judge. Airline labor has always helped to bail management out after they, or the ones before them, did a piss poor job running the company.

and again, you are showing how little you know about the industry if you don't think some mis-management was going on in the 90s and 2000s. Its easy and lazy to blame everything on labor.
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:21 am

Quoting rojo (Reply 31):
It is not about taking concessions, it is about understanding that every time an airline goes into negotiations with its pilots, they think that everything has to go up and up and up until it is unsustainable.

Actually they do have to ask for more money, a wage needs to keep up with inflation. The value of a dollar goes down by 2% a year because the government prints more money. As a result you need to make 2% more a year to keep the same buying power.

In the US if you don't get a 2% raise it is actually a pay cut.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:30 am

Aw.... they aren't buying crappier, lower paying 757 replacements because the TA was voted down?

Darn.  
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Prost
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:47 am

Regardless of how the pilot contract talks go, DL will still be wanting or needing to replace aircraft. I may be mistaken, but these 40 737-900ERs were never specifically earmarked as 757-200 replacements. The speculation, at least here on ANet, was that they would replace older MD-88 aircraft. If that is the case, there would have been an increase in pilot wages.

Again, all speculative, as I don't believe management ever specified what planes would be parked. Delta will order planes, this is assured, and I wonder if Airbus is sharpening their pencils so that DL will pick up additional A321's? It'd be nice if the A321 fleet and 737-900ER fleet were equal in size, but I don't believe Airbus has many (any?) CEO slots left.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5400
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:47 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 35):

321/739 rate should be the same as the 757

and more 321s would not bother me.....

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 34):

Actually they do have to ask for more money, a wage needs to keep up with inflation. The value of a dollar goes down by 2% a year because the government prints more money. As a result you need to make 2% more a year to keep the same buying power.

In the US if you don't get a 2% raise it is actually a pay cut.

You also have to factor in cost of living.

and with the profit sharing cuts the pilots would have gotten a raise but it isn't much of one.
 
ual777
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Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:54 am

Quoting rojo (Reply 31):
Then you will have new airlines like Eastern getting into the market and competing with a much lower cost structure thanks to 5 year locked contracts. Just like how NK did back when they started growing (they already went through small strike back in 2010)... why do you think Allegiant and Sun Country are having big problems with their pilots. Other airlines set the bar high and pilots want the same as their piers in the majors, not just a 5% salary increase (pay rate in this case) like most people in other industries.

Negative. They want higher rates because their pay scales are terrible. I've been on both sides of the fence and most of my friends who are still at the regionals aren't even applying to Allegiant or Frontier. In fact, I know a guy who worked at Allegiant and he said it was terrible. What did he do? He left. Allegiant and Frontier can churn through pilots when they are small, but as they grow they must be able to retain pilots (which won't happen with the current compensation packages). I worked at the regionals for over 5 years and never cracked $40,000 dollars on my W2. If you include my first year ($18,500), then the average really comes down. Some guys go chase upgrades at other regionals, but I instead did everything in my power to go after my dream job and I was very fortunate to get it. My new-hire class was filled with extremely impressive resumes. Check airmen, chief pilots, military officers, etc, etc. everyone had a 4 year degree and many had masters degrees. Most impressive of all, every single one was extremely personable and absolutely great to be around. Why were they all there? Because the compensation is top notch, and it's a company that treats you right.

Only the top 20% of any major airline senority list can even sniff the top pay rates. Even then with the current and proposed pay rates will they ever sniff $300,000 per year. Those that can hold those positions usually do so at the end of their careers.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5400
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 36):
DL will still be wanting or needing to replace aircraft. I may be mistaken, but these 40 737-900ERs were never specifically earmarked as 757-200 replacements.

officially no

Quoting Prost (Reply 36):
The speculation, at least here on ANet, was that they would replace older MD-88 aircraft.

highly unlikely.

Delta still has 757-200s that will need to be replaced.

now the E90 replacing some of the 88 fleet was, IMO, highly likely.
 
UA444
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Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 35):

Seriously. The less 739s in the world the better.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:16 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):
321/739 rate should be the same as the 757

and more 321s would not bother me.....

A few years ago DL made 757s pay the same as 763s. 739s and 321s paying the same as 763s is a tough pill to swallow.

Should 180-seat 739s and ~192-seat 321s pay more than 160-seat 738s? That should be an easier argument to make.

If the union wanted straight longevity-based pay irrespective of size of aircraft flown that would take some work.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5400
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 41):
A few years ago DL made 757s pay the same as 763s. 739s and 321s paying the same as 763s is a tough pill to swallow.

how is it a tough pill to swallow?

Airplane A is replaced by airplane B.......but you are worried about the pay difference between airplane B and C.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 41):
That should be an easier argument to make.

they do already.
 
atct
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RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:43 am

Quoting rojo (Reply 31):
why do you think Allegiant and Sun Country are having big problems with their pilots.

Because Allegiant and Sun Country pay crap and your quality of life is non-existent. Why go to Sun Country, get paid peanuts, when you can make more flying an Embraer 145 and have better, but still poor, quality of life.
Trikes are for kids!
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5400
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting atct (Reply 43):

Because Allegiant and Sun Country pay crap and your quality of life is non-existent. Why go to Sun Country, get paid peanuts, when you can make more flying an Embraer 145 and have better, but still poor, quality of life.

and FWIW Sun County is a different animal because it is privately owned. Not comparable to Delta


oh and G4 is literally breaking the law and not following the RLA. But of course, because management isn't going by the law, its labors fault
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:47 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
About one month ago, DL intended to buy 40 737-900ER and 20 E-190 jets:

Why does the thread title say Delta cancelled an airplane order? Did they ever actually place an order? Or are they just announcing no order without a contract as part of the bargaining game?

It looks like the thread title is very misleading and needs to be changed. I could announce that I intend to order a custom BBJ outfitted to my exact specifications. Then next week, if I don't win the lottery, I could announce that I am cancelling my order. Will you report it as Boeing having an order cancelled? Because that would be really cool.
 
Prost
Posts: 2603
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:51 am

It'll be interesting to see how aggressively Boeing markets the E190s now.
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:50 am

Anderson should be fired. Clearly he is not making capital decisions based on return on investment considerations.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:08 am

He backed himself into a corner with the airplane order-- they thought the TA was a certain pass and that this would help it. Instead it just turned guys off even more with adding that to the sales job. This isn't a pilot group in the 1970's anymore and both mgmt and ALPA need to realize that.

Look for eventual backtracking somehow.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2583
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: DL To Cancel Airplane Order

Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:55 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 39):
now the E90 replacing some of the 88 fleet was, IMO, highly likely.

This may be an opportunity for BBD, they need to make a really good sales pitch to DL for some C-series. As well as Airbus to get more 321s in widgets. If I was either manufacture I would be hell bent on stopping Boeing from regaining this order.

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