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777222LR
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United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:41 pm

I was just looking at schedules for Mid-September, and it looks like United is sending a 787-8 to ANC from IAH. I get that this is a 9hr flight, but seems overkill on the route. Has anyone else picked up on this yet?

[Edited 2015-07-16 05:46:35]
 
nikeherc
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:15 pm

Does it do a turn around back to IAH or go on to Asia?
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
FSDan
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:20 pm

I checked the week of 9/14 and didn't see any non-stops. There is a same-flight-number-but-you-have-to-change-planes flight through DEN where the IAH-DEN leg is on the 788 and the DEN-ANC leg is on the 738.

I never have understood the point of marketing something like that as one flight when you basically have to connect anyway...
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christao17
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 1):
I never have understood the point of marketing something like that as one flight when you basically have to connect anyway...

If I'm not mistaken, a 1-stop with the same flight number will appear higher in the reservation searches than a connection, no?
More than a dozen years flying in and around Asia...
 
FSDan
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting christao17 (Reply 3):
If I'm not mistaken, a 1-stop with the same flight number will appear higher in the reservation searches than a connection, no?

Depends on the airline website... There are some that don't even necessarily show the nonstops at the top if there are cheaper 1-stop options.
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iahcsr
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:03 pm

Many airlines do these 'Change of gauge' flights thou hubs. The same capacity aircraft is not always needed for the whole route. Plus it saves on using up available flight numbers.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
modesto2
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 2):
I never have understood the point of marketing something like that as one flight when you basically have to connect anyway...

It allows airlines to market "direct" service, not to be confused with non-stop service.
 
A346Dude
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 6):
It allows airlines to market "direct" service, not to be confused with non-stop service.

What a joke. Why not just give every flight the same number and offer direct service to everywhere?
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 7):
Quoting modesto2 (Reply 6):
It allows airlines to market "direct" service, not to be confused with non-stop service.

What a joke. Why not just give every flight the same number and offer direct service to everywhere?

I agree. For me, if a flight were marketed as "direct", it should mean (1) same plane service, and (2) guaranteed to make the connection. SQ's JFK-FRA-SIN is marketed as direct because that's exactly how it works. Same for CX's JFK-YVR-HKG.

UA is absolutely horrible in this regard - tons of "direct" flights involve plane change, gate change, terminal change, and connection times that barely hover above MCT with no guarantee that you or your bags will make it. That's a very major flaw in their strategy. Anyone who has tried making a 32-min connection from gate 88 to 77 at LAX know that even Usain Bolt would misconnect.

[Edited 2015-07-16 09:14:23]
 
panova98
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:21 pm

UA is absoluletly an abomination with its "change-of-gauge," 1-stop, direct flights, and "with stops" flight marketing shenanigans. I've complained about this to UA and DOT for years. No other airline does this like UA and it should be ashamed of itself.

Half of all 1-stop UA flights wind up with plane-changes en route! Shame!

UA is the "king" of foisting change-of-gauge (direct flight, no less) marketing on the American public. Check your OAG. Full of UA flights for these crazy jokes. All under the heading of "direct" flights in the OAG and "with stops" in UA's web site.

Waiting at LAS gate (D56), to go nonstop to IAD the other week, the destination signs toggled between IAD and LAX. Same departure time, same flight number. "So are we stopping at LAX first? No, it goes to IAD first then continues to LAX--plane doesn't, but the flight number does--change-of-gauge!" "Are you serious?"

Yes, one flight number, one flight coupon, so you don't get charged a second Sept. 11 security fee and PFC. A joke!

Change-of-gauge service is and always will be the same thing as a connecting flight service, which is not a "direct" flight or simply a flight "with stops." It's a sham of the hightest degree and I've insisted that DOT find this marketing as an unfair and deceptive practice and an unfair method of competition. You can imagine how far I've gotten with my letter-a-year complaint on this. But, I will not give up!
 
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airzim
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 6):
Quoting FSDan (Reply 2):I never have understood the point of marketing something like that as one flight when you basically have to connect anyway...
It allows airlines to market "direct" service, not to be confused with non-stop service.

Historically it was for higher RES display in the GDS'. Nonstops and directs will be at the top of the screen over connections. A travel agent was more likely to book one of the first few options rather than scroll through screens of connections.

However, in today's world I'm sure it's less of a priority given most of the sales channels today are web based with their own sorting display logic.

The challenge with many of these very large airlines, is they are out of available flight numbers. Taking out their own metal, express, superstitious, retired numbers (crashes) and the world of code share, there are not enough numbers left to allocate for every unique flight.

I believe 4 characters is a max limit in the RES systems as well.
 
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adamblang
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:34 pm

Change of gauge with same flight number irritates me as well but...

Does UA ever actually market anything as "direct?" I don't see that verbiage used anywhere in the web booking engine or reservation management tools. Fight numbers are re-used but there's no apparent promise of a direct flight because of it.

I constantly hear non-avgeeks referring to nonstop flights as direct flight. I think offering John Q Public a direct flight would include an expectation it be nonstop. Southwest doesn't even use the word "direct" – they say "1 stop no change of planes" on their website.
 
32andBelow
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:37 pm

It makes it 100 times easier to book a through flight on a single flight number in the res system on the backend. It will show up as the best option and not treated like a connection.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:47 pm

Quoting panova98 (Reply 9):
I've complained about this.. ..to DOT for years

Ah, so you're THAT guy...  
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
jetblue1965
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting adamblang (Reply 11):

Does UA ever actually market anything as "direct?" I don't see that verbiage used anywhere in the web booking engine or reservation management tools. Fight numbers are re-used but there's no apparent promise of a direct flight because of it.

UA shows it as a single flight number with a tiny note on the bottom, like this :

"1 Stop. Time on the ground in Los Angeles, CA, US (LAX) is 32 minutes."

or

"1 Stop. Time on the ground in San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) is 1 hour 16 minutes. Change Planes. Equipment changes in San Francisco, CA, US (SFO) to a Airbus A320. "

The major trap is that in the LAX scenario, both legs can be A320 so the booking engine thinks it's same plane, but it can frequently involve gate change since it's 2 different birds completely, one in T7 and one in T8.
 
panova98
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 10):
The challenge with many of these very large airlines, is they are out of available flight numbers.

Yes, this is what UA tells you. Truth is, UA by its own decision, has assigned so many 4-position flight numbers because of contracting out--"operated-by" regionals--such that so many 4-position flight numbers are used up.

I'm not going to tell UA to stop using "operating by" regionals, just start using the carrier code of the "operated by" instead of the code UA. Bingo, problem solved! (Like UA is ever going to do htis, sure! No, they want you to believe it's really, really, really a UA flight even if UA is only the marketing entity.) But, what sense does this make?

When ATC controls a UA "operated by" flight, ATC doesn't give a hoot that UA is the marketing carrier. They call it by the carrier name that is actually operating the flight. If it works for ATC, why not for the travelling public?

No, I have nothing personally against UA. If you live next to IAD, you're pretty well invested in the carrier. But, come on, let's be honest with the people who are paying the freight!
 
panova98
Posts: 73
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
Ah, so you're THAT guy...

Cover blown!
 
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airzim
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting panova98 (Reply 15):
Yes, this is what UA tells you. Truth is, UA by its own decision, has assigned so many 4-position flight numbers because of contracting out--"operated-by" regionals--such that so many 4-position flight numbers are used up.

It would make absolutely no difference if United was flying the plane or one of their regionals. Given the number of flights per day and including the items I listed above, there are just not enough 4 digit numbers left to allocate.

Quoting panova98 (Reply 15):
I'm not going to tell UA to stop using "operating by" regionals, just start using the carrier code of the "operated by" instead of the code UA. Bingo, problem solved! (Like UA is ever going to do htis, sure! No, they want you to believe it's really, really, really a UA flight even if UA is only the marketing entity.) But, what sense does this make?

Problem not solved. There's a host of reason on the back end (IATA, fare proration, traffic rights, etc.) that this can't happen.

I guess I really don't get why this is a big deal. I've been flying for nearly 20 years and can't say that through flight numbers have ever caused a problem or confusion. Its pretty easy to determine at booking whether a flight option is a nonstop or a connections/direct flight.
 
AT
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 6):
It allows airlines to market "direct" service, not to be confused with non-stop service.

yes but if you have to change planes, how is it direct service? I see the points about running out of flight numbers, but assigning the same flight number to two connecting flight doesn't suddenly make it direct.

I can understand if there's a stop and then passengers continue on in the same aircraft but once there's a plane change or a gate change,
 
diesel33
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Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:28 am

RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 8):
UA is absolutely horrible in this regard - tons of "direct" flights involve plane change, gate change, terminal change, and connection times that barely hover above MCT with no guarantee that you or your bags will make it. That's a very major flaw in their strategy. Anyone who has tried making a 32-min connection from gate 88 to 77 at LAX know that even Usain Bolt would misconnect.

Especially considering a flight is considered to be on-time within 15 minutes of scheduled arrival time and that they close the boarding door ten minutes prior to departure time to ensure an on-time departure.

If your flight arrives 14 minutes late and your seat is in the back, you're pretty much out of luck even though the flight arrived "on-time."

[Edited 2015-07-16 11:24:46]
 
panova98
Posts: 73
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting adamblang (Reply 11):
Does UA ever actually market anything as "direct?"

In the printed version of the OAG, flights listed are either "direct" or "connecting." All change-of-gauge and 1-stop flights are listed under the heading of "direct." OAG says "Connections are displayed at each carrier's request." In fact, UA doesn't have any (with minor exceptions) "connections" listed. Now, I'm talking about DOMESTIC flights.

If you look at the electronic version (real-time) of the OAG, the primary list of flights are "direct" and include the 1-stops and change-of-gauge. If you look at the "details" for the change of gauge flights you will NOT find anything that they involve a plane-change. A stop, yes, but nothing about plane-change. This is clearly in violation of DOT's "disclosure" regulation at 14 CFR 257, which goes back to 1999 when there were very, very few such flights. Now, just about every UA flight number is both a non-stop (first and last leg) and a "change-of-gauge," something far different from 1999 AND UA the carrier that makes by far the most use of this type of flight.

In UA's Web site, it categorizes flights as either nonstop or "with stops." It doesn't segregate flight by whether or not they make a plan-change. If you filter all of the other than non-stop flights by "price," change of gauge flights come up first because they are not assessed a second Sept. 11 security fee or a second PFC, because, according to DOT, they only have one flight coupon. That is, if you have regular connecting flight listing and a change of gauge listing, each with the same fare code, the change of gauge listing comes up first because of the way fees are charged.

UA doesn't use the phrase "direct' flights except in its Web site where it shows the weekly list of flights under its 170 or so page timetable. UA says: "This timetable highlights information about United's non-stop and select direct flight schedule." It doesn't define the word "direct" anywhere but I would guess that it includes 1-stops. I've never seen a change-of-gauge flight listed in this timetable.

Jetblue1965 accurately shows UA's web site as to how change of gauge flights are listed. The always show "1 Stop" first, then "Change Plane" much later. Interesting, I think, after you buy a UA change-of-gauge ticket, the intinerary is changed to read the same as you find for a common, ordinary connecting flight itinerary.

As adamblang points out, other airlines don't handle all of this the same way UA does. Southwest calls a "direct' flights as one with "no change of plane."

To beat a dead horse a little farther, I guess, when I called UA reservations about my change-of-gauge flight and whether this was a "direct" flight, the answer was no, we wouldn't call it "direct" because it involves a plane-change. At the IAD customer service people (3) adjacent to the flight I was taking, they all said it was a "direct" flight even though it involved a plane-change! Heaven help us!

Sorry, more than anyone wants to know, but...!

[Edited 2015-07-16 11:54:35]
 
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cathay747
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:41 pm

Ahem...back on topic...

In checking in the GDS, there is NO nonstop flight
on UA between IAH & ANC. For any dates. Ever.

There is a daily 738 from DEN and a daily 752 from ORD
and a daily 739 from SFO. That's it.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
Rdh3e
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting panova98 (Reply 15):
such that so many 4-position flight numbers are used up.

I'll bite, what's a 4-position flight number?

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 21):
In checking in the GDS, there is NO nonstop flight
on UA between IAH & ANC. For any dates. Ever.

Actually there is during the summer. Non-stop 757-300:

UA1291 IAHANC 318P 739P
UA1291 ANCIAH 844P 634A
 
panova98
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:54 pm

RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 22):
I'll bite, what's a 4-position flight number?

Thanks, I guess 4-digit would be a little better--UA1234!
 
as739x
Posts: 5224
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:09 pm

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):

1126 IAH-ORD-ANC with a change to 738 from ORD (sept 15th)

IAH-ANC is 7hr 21mins and done by a mix of 757's and 737's routinely
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
johnclipper
Posts: 537
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:53 pm

AA and DL just as guilty.

AA 137 - DCA-HKG "DIRECT" with B737-800 (DCA-DFW and DFW-HKG)
AA 280 - MIA-ICN "DIRECT" with a B757-200 (MIA-DFW and DFW-ICN)

DL 167 - SEA-SIN "DIRECT" with a change of B777s in NRT (not same aircraft)
DL 282 - HKG-DTW "DIRESCT" with an A330 (HKG-SEA with an A330 and SEA-DTW with a domestic B763)

All airlines do this...
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
panova98
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:54 pm

RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting jOHNcLIPPER (Reply 25):
All airlines do this...

Intl, OK, you kinda know that if the first aircraft is a ERJ, you're probably pretty sure there'll be a plane-change somethwere en route. But, with UA. it's the DOMESTIC change-of-gauge flights to which I object. Call them connections and I'm OK with you.

Anyway, 777222LR, I hope you got your 787-8 to ANC question answered. I apologize for my rant at your post's expense.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting jOHNcLIPPER (Reply 25):
All airlines do this...

WN only changes planes if there's an issue with the aircraft   Of course, they don't fly overseas international, either...(they do fly international, but only to points south of the USA on the North American continent at this point...)
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
rbavfan
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:46 am

Most airlines mark flights with the same number but not the same plane as "Direct", "1 stop" flights use the same plane but make a stop & "non-stop" is just that one long flight.
 
rbavfan
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RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting panova98 (Reply 9):
Yes, one flight number, one flight coupon, so you don't get charged a second Sept. 11 security fee and PFC. A joke!

You get charged a "PFC" at every airport you stop at en route if that airport has a fee. Its based on each passenger on the plane that lands at the airport, not just those staying. Thats why the US government is making airlines bundle those fees into a single charge. They don't want passengers knowing what all the federal fees are. Been a sticking point from several airlines when the Gov says they have to show all their fees itemized, but hid that info for gov fees. Not fair to airlines or the customers but Unkle Sam could care less.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:08 am

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 1):
Does it do a turn around back to IAH or go on to Asia?

UA doesn't operate ANC-Asia and never has.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3518
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

RE: United 787-8 To ANC

Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:56 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 10):
The challenge with many of these very large airlines, is they are out of available flight numbers
AA is handling differently. They are keeping the same flight number in both directions of the same market which is confusing, but not misleading. (I.e. DFW-SJC-DFW)

Thru flights are great and almost aircraft immediately continue on to another destination (unless arriving late night). UA should conserve flight numbers by keeping the same flight number on the route the aircraft is actually making. Problem solved.

Quoting jOHNcLIPPER (Reply 25):
AA and DL just as guilty.

It is more common and strategic to do that internationally. UA does it domestically too. It actually makes sense in this example of IAH-ANC as it allows single connections to be displayed via IAH, even though in reality they would be double connections. Most of the time though UA markets single flight numbers where a plane change is required is only thru a hub, not originating from one too.

[Edited 2015-07-18 10:11:01]

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