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Miami
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Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:44 pm

Title says it all. Short and simple.


I've been hearing from a couple of people that work with Korean Air that KE is looking to expanding its US route network soon. Possibly with the upcoming 787s.



Where do you think Korean Air is looking at in the US?



-Miami   
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757usairways
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:48 pm

Not being biased but I can see PHL being a canadit because of the large Korean population in PHL and I've read articles on PHL trying to court Korean into the airport.
 
migair54
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:51 pm

I am sure Miami is high in the list.

What about SLC or DEN??
I think PHL could work also, but If I have to decide 1 I will go for MIA.

[Edited 2015-07-21 09:52:58]
 
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tlecam
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:56 pm

BOS. Based on nothing other than everyone else seems to be doing it.   

In all seriousness, KE used to serve this market and although there has been a lot of Far East growth out of BOS to Hong Kong, Japan and China, Seoul may be able to support traffic. BOS also has a sizeable DL presence, although the relationship between DL and KE seems to be frigid.
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:58 pm

KE served both BOS and DEN in the past, so those can't be ruled out.
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 2):
I am sure Miami is high in the list.

In the minds of a.netters anyway. This could go two ways in reality, I mean, it's a huge market but I think AA have it pretty much sown up. Wouldn't be much connecting traffic for KE, it would have to be O&D -- is that enough?

Quoting migair54 (Reply 2):
What about SLC or DEN??

God, no. Well maybe a bit of Delta connecting traffic at SLC but I don't see it tbh. There has to be a reasonably decent O&D market to sustain a daily transpacific flight. SLC itself is a tiny city. Denver isn't much bigger.

Philadelphia is just about possible, due to the size of the market -- it's a big city, and includes other well-populated areas such as NJ and around DC -- and lack of Asia flights. I can definitely see Philly getting a Tokyo flight at some stage if Koreanair don't step in.
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:07 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5):
I mean, it's a huge market but I think AA have it pretty much sown up.

There are about 40 or so scheduled passenger airlines flying to Miami; only LAX and JFK have more. I fail to see how AA has it "sown up."
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:09 pm

Quoting tlecam (Reply 3):

BOS makes all the sense in the world. TONS of rich Korean students in Boston.

Aside from BOS, MIA makes sense too, exploiting market thats not being served at the moment.

PHL? No, not enough Koreans to justify serving and its too close to JFK.

I can see San Jose.
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting 757usairways (Reply 1):

While I know (and have seen) Korean Air Executives at PHL meeting with DGS to be their diversion handler at PHL, I can't see them operating regularly. Not nearly enough connections as they are SkyTeam and PHL is a OneWorld hub.

You never know though, maybe they will try it. PHL will probably cut them a sweet deal in order to operate.
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 7):
PHL? No, not enough Koreans to justify serving and its too close to JFK.

There are a lot more Koreans in Philadelphia than Miami.

Both PHL and MIA make sense on some level. But, if I were KE, I would be more interested in BOS than either.
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SFOA380
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:13 pm

SJC is surely on their radar...
 
FSDan
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:17 pm

I could see BOS although that option probably isn't as attrictive as it would have been a year ago before HU and CX started up service.

MSP could also be a contender if KE were to codeshare with DL. Perhaps PDX, SAN, or SJC as dark horses, especially if the 787 is involved.
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SCQ83
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:19 pm

Obviously BOS. It is the remaining carrier and destination.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 7):
BOS makes all the sense in the world. TONS of rich Korean students in Boston.

You took the words out of my mouth. There are trillions of South Koreans in Boston and as you say they tend to be (very) well-off.

At a well-known university in Cambridge, Koreans are the 3rd largest international contingence after Chinese and Canadians. Many of them also end up living there.
 
migair54
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:23 pm

Starting MIA will give them the advantage of being the first one to the Far East, I think KE currently have cargo flights so they can uplift some cargo also, maybe not many Koreans in the region, but lot of potential for pax to China, Japan, Korea and SE Asia, plus cruise pax, I think it´s a good market.

BOS is good market but maybe it´s too late now, plenty of capacity in the last years.

Lately AUS with BA and now Condon, I know it´s very close to DFW and IAH, but it could be the wildcard.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 7):
PHL? No, not enough Koreans to justify serving and its too close to JFK.

Maybe too close to JFK and IAD.

Is EWR a possibility???
 
32andBelow
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:26 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 12):
There are trillions of South Koreans in Boston

This statement has me absolutely cracking up.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 11):

They will need a JV for MSP to work, not mere code share.
 
rj777
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:31 pm

Maybe MKE? They'd have to either enlarge the IAB or have customs maybe move over to E, but I think it could happen!
 
ANA787
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:33 pm

PDX-SEL ran for nearly 10-years with very high load factors back in the day with DL. Throw in connection opportunities from ICN and the cargo between PDX and Asia(Korean Air cargo used to fly to PDX daily for nearly 10-years) I wouldn't be surprised to see PDX-ICN. Partner AS from PDX would also help fill the flight. Sounds like a win win.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting ana787 (Reply 17):

Again, will need JV with DL to make that work.
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:50 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 14):
This statement has me absolutely cracking up.

Considering that the total number of human inhabitants on Terra Firma is somewhere just a bit over 7bil, had me snickering as well...
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RemoFlyer
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:58 pm

EWR DTW MSP BOS and PDX would be my guesses

EWR: A sizeable portion of the NYC metro area lives closer to EWR relative to JFK.
DTW: Skyteam Hub
MSP: *ditto*
BOS and PDX: O&D

PHL and MIA are OneWorld hubs- maybe some One World airline should at least show some interest in starting a NS Asia service ?
 
travelin man
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:59 pm

Just some ideas (especially with the 787), aside from BOS which seems likely:
SAN
PDX
DEN

I don't think any of these would necessitate a JV with DL (which seems like a long way from happening anyway).
 
TWA85
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:06 pm

What's the possibility of a DL/KE JV? Although there has been some bad relations in the past between the two, there could be some big opportunities for both if they worked together.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 21):

Yes, PDX, JV is needed. Its beyond small. Its tiny.

Only city on that size that KE flies to is Vegas and thats a special case. Portland lacks Korean population. It adds nothing.
 
chanyxp
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:17 pm

KE, Please come to SAN!
 
IAHflyer97
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:17 pm

If they keep the codeshare with AA, then I'd hope CLT would be on that list.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:19 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 7):
I can see San Jose.

This was rumored in the past. I'm wondering if HU has prevented that. As much as I'd like to see it, I'd question if SJC could yet support three daily Asia flights.

I could see SLC and MSP as they are DL hubs and SLC has no Asia service now.
 
Thomaas
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:22 pm

SJC, PDX, and DTW are my guesses. KE would do well in MIA but I doubt they'd be able to hold on to the market once AA/JL launches MIA-NRT.
 
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STT757
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:33 pm

KE previously flew to EWR, New Jersey would be the place with the largest Korean population not currently served.
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:39 pm

Why do people keep bringing up PDX? Because of a subsidized DL flight to NRT?

There is NO market between PDX and ICN. There isn't enough Koreans nor Korean businesses. Maybe China.

AUS has more of a case.
 
travelin man
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:45 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 23):
Yes, PDX, JV is needed. Its beyond small. Its tiny.

Only city on that size that KE flies to is Vegas and thats a special case. Portland lacks Korean population. It adds nothing.

HNL is much smaller than PDX or LAS, but that's more of a tourist thing.

PDX is a metro area of 2.2 million people, a shipping port, and very "Asia-focused" (as are most US West Coast cities). It's hardly "tiny" but to your point probably doesn't have a large enough Korean population to support that flight plus the DL NRT flight.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:48 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 30):

Is Portland Hawaii? No. Is it a popular tourist destination like Hawaii and Vegas? No.

The market is tiny for KE. Not that Portland is tiny city, period.

[Edited 2015-07-21 11:48:58]
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 30):
HNL is much smaller than PDX or LAS, but that's more of a tourist thing.

But HNL-ICN is many times larger than PDX-ICN.

You cant look at the size of the city or Metro area. Otherwise, Vegas and Orlando wouldnt have any international demand.
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travelin man
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:50 pm

O&D data might be helpful in this discussion rather than blanket statements.

Also, ICN is a hub, so maybe looking at the beyond traffic would help too. It's not just about people beginning or ending their journey in South Korea.

[Edited 2015-07-21 11:52:02]
 
lhpdx
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:51 pm

Portland's Delta to Narita flight is not subsidized..........
 
travelin man
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 32):
But HNL-ICN is many times larger than PDX-ICN.

You cant look at the size of the city or Metro area. Otherwise, Vegas and Orlando wouldnt have any international demand.

I realize that which is why I said "it's more of a tourist thing".... jeez.
 
ANA787
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 29):

PDX-NRT is not subsidized. It was subsidized for a 1-year period 6 years ago. It has ran since then without subsidy.
 
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5):
SLC itself is a tiny city.

SLC serves more than Salt Lake City, proper. 3/4 of the population of the state is along the Wasatch Front, which IS served by SLC. Utah has a population of 2.9 million and 80% of those live along the Wasatch Front.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5):
Denver isn't much bigger.

As for DEN, I'll let you decide for yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:55 pm

KE used to fly to DEN and there are some Koreans.

But yea, KE is better off feeding DEN passengers to DL.
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:56 pm

SJC (bay area is huge o&d) or EWR make sense to me lots of korean companies like samsung in Bergen County NJ

SLC might work with a 787 if they see alot of connecting traffic but seems like a long shot. The 787 is the plane you need to operate that route. Still seems unlikely but i could see them trying you have hubs on both sides to connect people so everyone in SLC headed to anywhere in asia, and people in Korea headed to anywhere in the West it could work and be considered if SLC offered a subsidy. They wouldnt be flying empty seats you have skyteam hubs on both ends.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 33):
O&D data might be helpful in this discussion rather than blanket statements.

You got it. Of all the markets discussed, this is the PDEW data to ICN:

HNL-ICN - 550 PDEW
BOS-ICN - 80 PDEW
MCO-ICN - 45 PDEW
PDX-ICN - 30 PDEW
DEN-ICN - 30 PDEW
MSP-ICN - 28 PDEW
MIA-ICN - 25 PDEW
PHL-ICN - 25 PDEW
PHX-ICN - 20 PDEW

So, yes. HNL-ICN is many, many times larger than any other market in question.
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travelin man
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:04 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 40):
You got it. Of all the markets discussed, this is the PDEW data to ICN:

HNL-ICN - 550 PDEW
BOS-ICN - 80 PDEW
MCO-ICN - 45 PDEW
PDX-ICN - 30 PDEW
DEN-ICN - 30 PDEW
MSP-ICN - 28 PDEW
MIA-ICN - 25 PDEW
PHL-ICN - 25 PDEW
PHX-ICN - 20 PDEW

So, yes. HNL-ICN is many, many times larger than any other market in question.

So basically, with HNL already served and everyone agreeing BOS should be on the list, PDX would be right after MCO based on a purely O&D basis as a candidate for expansion. Same as DEN, higher than MIA.

What about SAN?
 
behramjee
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:13 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 33):
O&D data might be helpful in this discussion rather than blanket statements.

Also, ICN is a hub, so maybe looking at the beyond traffic would help too. It's not just about people beginning or ending their journey in South Korea.

100% correct so lets have a look at the data for their offline stations for 2014 (round trip pax):

BOS-ICN...39,000
MIA-ICN...9,000
MCO-ICN...15,000
EWR-ICN...28,000
PHL-ICN...11,000
DEN-ICN...17,000

MIA-ICN nonstop on a B787-900 is 14 hours 50 minutes nonstop hence do able on this aircraft type.

So I guess from the above point to point data, Boston wins hands down and can easily handle an initial 4 weekly nonstop service, increasing to 5 in year 2 and then daily by Year 4. Plus via ICN, KE will also be attracting a lot of China, HKG, BKK, SIN, SGN, MNL, KUL and CGK bound traffic hence ideal.

KE have ordered 10 B789s and I hope they dont install a first class cabin on board as that will take up a lot of real estate as this aircraft is supposed to be used to serve markets that are too large for their B777s to operate into or are they planning to phase out 7-8 of their oldest B772ERs to be replaced by the more cost efficient B789???
 
us330
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:16 pm

What about San Diego?
 
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Miami
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 42):
MIA-ICN nonstop on a B787-900 is 14 hours 50 minutes nonstop hence do able on this aircraft type.

Shouldn't be a problem on a 789.

[Edited 2015-07-21 12:41:31]
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 29):
Why do people keep bringing up PDX? Because of a subsidized DL flight to NRT?

People responded to you in a previous threat too that PDX-NRT isn't subsidized. What part of that still doesn't make sense?

Quoting thekorean (Reply 23):
Yes, PDX, JV is needed. Its beyond small. Its tiny.

Newark is a tiny city too. So is San Francisco. Those are both major airports. What's your point? Perhaps a lesson in US and urban demographics might be in order?
 
kwbl
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:42 pm

ICN-PDX is small with o&d but KE would have connectivity on both ends. I am not saying that PDX should get that route but to sayit is not even a possibility seems to overlook connection possibilities. The pdx nrt route is mostly o&d so a flight to ICN could serve the bulk of Asia for pdx pax.
 
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Miami
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:46 pm

My bet is on BOS, but I'm not all in. I think if they were to enter the market earlier, it would've been a much smoother ride.


MIA, meh, makes sense in a way. I believe it has a better chance than MCO because of its new friend, AA
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 45):

Newark serves NYC, what big major city is PDX next to?

Portland metropolitan area is 2 million, far less people in the actual city.

That is not big for an American city.
 
a380787
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 40):
MSP-ICN - 28 PDEW

According to those in favor of a DL-KE JV, this is one of the top routes they want to see launched upon JV. It's still a very marginal route even if stimulation can bring that PDEW up to 56.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 45):
Quoting thekorean (Reply 23):
Yes, PDX, JV is needed. Its beyond small. Its tiny.

Newark is a tiny city too. So is San Francisco. Those are both major airports. What's your point? Perhaps a lesson in US and urban demographics might be in order?

Portland metro, being 19th largest in the nation, is 3.06M population, give or take. By population the ranking is DEN-SAN-PDX-MCO-TPA. DEN SAN PDX each has a single NRT flight (by UA JL DL respectively). No offense to Portland, but a PDX-ICN simply doesn't sound like a good business decision anytime in the next 5 years.

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