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ams747757
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:52 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5):
Philadelphia is just about possible, due to the size of the market -- it's a big city, and includes other well-populated areas such as NJ and around DC -- and lack of Asia flights. I can definitely see Philly getting a Tokyo flight at some stage if Koreanair don't step in.

I'd love to see KE in Philly, but the fact that PHL doesn't have Asia flights right now might say something about the viability.... although the 787 could change that. Only thing is with KE being SkyTeam, AA could always start a PHL-ICN with their 787s (as more come online) and probably have much better loads since PHL is a OneWorld Hub.
 
crazytoaster
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 40):
You got it. Of all the markets discussed, this is the PDEW data to ICN:

HNL-ICN - 550 PDEW
BOS-ICN - 80 PDEW
MCO-ICN - 45 PDEW
PDX-ICN - 30 PDEW
DEN-ICN - 30 PDEW
MSP-ICN - 28 PDEW
MIA-ICN - 25 PDEW
PHL-ICN - 25 PDEW
PHX-ICN - 20 PDEW

So, yes. HNL-ICN is many, many times larger than any other market in question.

Where did you pull the PDEW data for international flights?

Also curious how SLC stands for PDEW, makes the most sense for connections but I doubt O&D is there.
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 40):

How many PDEW is necessary to make such flights viable? Obviously there must be enough total passengers with decent yields to make a flight profitable; however there must be a healthy balance between O&D and connecting traffic.
 
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting crazytoaster (Reply 51):

Also curious how SLC stands for PDEW, makes the most sense for connections but I doubt O&D is there.

The O&D is probably pretty good in winter months with traffic to and from the ski resorts. They've always had to work to build up that traffic the rest of the year.
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 49):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 40):
MSP-ICN - 28 PDEW

According to those in favor of a DL-KE JV, this is one of the top routes they want to see launched upon JV. It's still a very marginal route even if stimulation can bring that PDEW up to 56.

For both MSP and PDX, you realize this isn't just about O/D traffic to ICN, right? KE has connections to all over Asia.
 
a380787
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 54):
Quoting a380787 (Reply 49):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 40):
MSP-ICN - 28 PDEW

According to those in favor of a DL-KE JV, this is one of the top routes they want to see launched upon JV. It's still a very marginal route even if stimulation can bring that PDEW up to 56.

For both MSP and PDX, you realize this isn't just about O/D traffic to ICN, right? KE has connections to all over Asia.

You have to also look what yields you're carrying these passengers at. Even if they can find a 250-seater plane, that's only 11.2% of the plane filled with local O&D, which is a very low percentage (with the hugely unrealistic assumption that 100% of that O&D will actually take advantage of such a service)

An airline needs TK / ME3 level of CASM to make this work. I'm not sure if KE's cost base is really that low at all.
 
eal
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:36 pm

I suspect BOS because of the massive medical/student traffic and plus they've been in the buisness of attracting major players recently. Besides that I think it might be MSP on a new 787 to connect with Delta. I think Miami will get its Asia flight eventually, but to Tokyo, on AA or JL metal, with convinient connections to Brazil. Doesn't make any sense to fly a very long flight into a no hub market, regardless of you being the first in the game.
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 5):
God, no. Well maybe a bit of Delta connecting traffic at SLC but I don't see it tbh. There has to be a reasonably decent O&D market to sustain a daily transpacific flight. SLC itself is a tiny city. Denver isn't much bigger.

KE served DEN in the past, so there's obviously something there that piqued their interest for a time. Perhaps they'll be back at some point, though I'm guessing BOS has the inside track.


Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 20):
PHL and MIA are OneWorld hubs- maybe some One World airline should at least show some interest in starting a NS Asia service ?

You're a little too hung up on the whole "alliance hub" thing... KE has never been afraid to enter a competitor alliance's hub, if the market is there. They'll even codeshare with that competitor if they must.


Quoting thekorean (Reply 48):
far less people in the actual city

Which in itself, means nothing.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:51 pm

Perhaps we're looking at it a bit one-sided here - expansion does not solely mean new destinations. We could see certain routes go [back to] daily with smaller 787 equipment - LAS, DFW, and the like - as well as new destinations.

I personally would say that EWR and BOS make the most sense right out of the gate. Denver seems to be willing to put money where its mouth is these days, so a DEN-ICN even 3 or 4 weekly wouldn't surprise me. PDX is also possible due to AS' mass there to supplement the [rather weak, admittedly] O&D there.

Speaking of less-than-daily flights, I'd also say that MCO could happen a few times a week at most. They just bagged EK, have no current Asian service, and like Denver, will put up money. Whether it sticks long term is a whole different conversation, but I would bet money MCO will appear on their route map sometime in the next decade.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting crazytoaster (Reply 51):
Also curious how SLC stands for PDEW, makes the most sense for connections but I doubt O&D is there.

SLC-ICN 18 PDEW.

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 52):
How many PDEW is necessary to make such flights viable? Obviously there must be enough total passengers with decent yields to make a flight profitable; however there must be a healthy balance between O&D and connecting traffic.

It really is measured on a case-by-case basis and also varies by airline.

For instance, BOS-YVR is a 54 PDEW market, but is not serviced by an airline.

Whereas, BOS-IST is a 8 PDEW market, and sees a daily 330/340 on TK.
 
coreyrust
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting panam330 (Reply 58):
PDX is also possible due to AS' mass there to supplement the [rather weak, admittedly] O&D there.

Not necessarily. According to a recent interview in the Columbian Newspaper in Vancouver, WA, a Port of Portland official was quoted saying that "about 85 percent of departing passengers coming from the Oregon-Washington service area..."

http://www.columbian.com/news/2015/j...ng-portland-international-airport/

Out of 15,916,512 passengers last year, that's 13,529,035 O&D if in fact that percentage is accurate. So, maybe compared to other markets, yes, it's a weak O&D market, but I'd say 85% is pretty good.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting panam330 (Reply 58):

MCO is never happening. No one is flying that distance to go to Mickey Land, when there's one in LA.

And HNL is THE US beach destination from Asia.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:08 pm

KE can get feed from both DL and B6 in BOS too.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 59):

Whereas, BOS-IST is a 8 PDEW market, and sees a daily 330/340 on TK.

No way BOS-IST is much bigger than that. It was 40 PDEW in 2011 and in the 30's in TK presentations in one the Turkish Aviation Thread
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2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:08 pm

Boston is clearly the most important market in the United States that KE does not already serve. The question will be if they want to battle it out with CX, JL and HU? Boston currently has essentially 3 daily flights to Eastern Asia - JL daily to NRT, HU daily to PEK and 3 weekly to PVG and CX 4 weekly to HKG. A non-stop to ICN is really the only missing for Boston, but can the market handle the additonal capacity?
 
global1
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:15 pm

I believe this could well signal that KE and DL may in fact start nudging closer to each other. DL , on their end, has stated that they are looking to forge alliances in Asia.
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 62):
MCO is never happening. No one is flying that distance to go to Mickey Land, when there's one in LA.

Except people already go that far to Mickeyland. Disney World sees a huge number of Asian tourists - mostly from Japan - and likely far more than Disneyland does.
a.
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:38 pm

KOA

filler filler
HNL - There's no place like it!
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 66):

Except those tourists always make a stop elsewhere for tourist reason before they go to Orlando.

MCO doesn't need Asian service, at least not from the East.
 
chanyxp
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:58 pm

I'm surprised no one's bringing up San Diego. Huge Asian population here (other than Korean) and we would be thrilled to have another non-stop Asian city destination (other than NRT with JL).
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting chanyxp (Reply 69):

Significant Asian pop. percentage wise but its still a small metro area. It an support nonstop Asian flight unlike PDX, but it will be limited. Still a room for one more though.
 
lhpdx
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:12 pm

Damn you are truly anti-Portland!
 
Thomaas
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:05 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 70):
Significant Asian pop. percentage wise but its still a small metro area. It an support nonstop Asian flight unlike PDX, but it will be limited. Still a room for one more though.

But PDX does support an Asian flight WITHOUT subsidy. There's no need to keep trolling the site ...
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:59 pm

What about routes outside of ICN, like Pusan (or Busan)?
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:24 am

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 71):

I am not anti-Portland.

I just think people are overestimating the demands between Portland and Asia, when Seattle is just a short hop away. And SFO too.
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:31 am

Quoting Miami (Thread starter):

Title says it all. Short and simple.


I've been hearing from a couple of people that work with Korean Air that KE is looking to expanding its US route network soon. Possibly with the upcoming 787s.



Where do you think Korean Air is looking at in the US?



-Miami   

Did you start the thread to see if people again jumps for BOS or not and you can roll eyes?   

Quoting behramjee (Reply 42):
100% correct so lets have a look at the data for their offline stations for 2014 (round trip pax):

BOS-ICN...39,000
MIA-ICN...9,000
MCO-ICN...15,000
EWR-ICN...28,000
PHL-ICN...11,000
DEN-ICN...17,000

MIA-ICN nonstop on a B787-900 is 14 hours 50 minutes nonstop hence do able on this aircraft type.

So I guess from the above point to point data, Boston wins hands down and can easily handle an initial 4 weekly nonstop service, increasing to 5 in year 2 and then daily by Year 4. Plus via ICN, KE will also be attracting a lot of China, HKG, BKK, SIN, SGN, MNL, KUL and CGK bound traffic hence ideal.

  

I guess this pretty much answered it for us. Let's see how quickly this happens!
Can't wait ... we haven't seen any new tails in BOS lately ... 
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:38 am

Quoting us330 (Reply 43):

What about San Diego?

Seoul was SAN's 12th most popular international destination way back in 2011 according to this site:
http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/aviation


I know the Korean population is huge here in San Diego, and I may be biased, but my money is that we'll see KE here eventually.

[Edited 2015-07-21 17:39:36]

[Edited 2015-07-21 17:40:14]
My name is Scott, and I am addicted to writing obnoxiously-detailed trip reports.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting Scooter (Reply 76):

I think so too.

But that runway at SAN though.....
 
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bigfoot0503
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:07 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 48):
Portland metropolitan area is 2 million, far less people in the actual city.

Wrong...where do you get your facts? The Portland metro area is 2.5 million and encompasses area into the state of Washington.

I cringe everytime I read your postings...as quite honestly you demonstrate a huge lack of factual knowledge.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting bigfoot0503 (Reply 78):

2 million, 2.5 million, its not that far off the mark. Its not like I mistaked 4 million for 2 million.
 
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mayor
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:16 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 79):
2 million, 2.5 million, its not that far off the mark. Its not like I mistaked 4 million for 2 million.

I'd say that 500K is quite a large amount to be off on.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 80):

I agree its not nothing, but its in the ballpark I would say.
 
ANA787
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting bigfoot0503 (Reply 78):

Quoting thekorean (Reply 48):
Portland metropolitan area is 2 million, far less people in the actual city.

Wrong...where do you get your facts? The Portland metro area is 2.5 million and encompasses area into the state of Washington.

I cringe everytime I read your postings...as quite honestly you demonstrate a huge lack of factual knowledge.

Don't look at metro area population...look at capture area population instead. Portland(PDX) capture area population is about 4 million. The capture area stretches through southern washington, south down the willamette valley, the oregon coast.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:40 am

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 82):

Even assuming that is there a significant Asian pop.? Any heavy business ties? Only one I can think of is Nike to China.
 
uberflieger
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:41 am

Of course MIA    expanding the American Airlines codeshare to the Caribbean, Central & South America, and giving Anderson something to huff & and puff about  
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 84):

Which would probably mean they are switching ships to OneWorld I reckon.

Which would leave a huge void for Skyteam in East Asia. Yea there are Chinese carriers but they are severely restricted via Chinese regulation.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:52 am

With the 744s going away I could easily see Delta being at least open to the prospect of something like 1 daily DL A332 and 1 daily KE 787 out of DTW. I could see it making pretty good sense and it would certainly make us happy here in the DTW area to have another int'l/Skyteam player enter the game.
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 86):

Without JV I think thats an overkill.

With JV KE can just feed at SEA.
 
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:54 am

Anyone else think SJC is a possibility? I was thinking of the tech industry in both South Korea and Silicon Valley. FWIW, Samsung Mobile has their U.S. headquarters in San Jose.

BOS looks to be a leading candidate. Perhaps EWR if they want to grab more traffic from New Jersey?

MSP and SLC could work, but would be heavily reliant on domestic feed from DL. I would rule out DTW, as DL already serves DTW-ICN.

PHL, CLT, and MIA probably wouldn't work. If it was AA or a fellow OW carrier, maybe, but not KE. They just don't have the domestic feed. PDX and SAN are likely too small, and combined with the lack of a significant domestic feed at either one, I would rule them out. ICN-MCO would be awfully far for a leisure-minded route.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:56 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 87):
Without JV I think thats an overkill.

With JV KE can just feed at SEA.

Perhaps, but if they want a well established Skyteam Asia gateway hub, DTW has to be high on the list. I guess we'll see what happens.
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:58 am

Quoting GSPFlyer (Reply 88):

SJC is a good candidate. Its not like EWR where it is right next to SF, its a legit business base on its own right. ICN and SJC areas are both high tech industry heavy. Heck, Samsung produces hardwares for Apple, ironically. Samsung and Apple gotta be great potential corporate customers. KE can connect Apple employees with TONS of Chinese destinations.

SLC? I honestly can't see any reason even with JV. DTW would be more likely, but I reckon DL will handle all Asian flights out of there.

MIA could work even if KE is not part of OW. It is a significant market in terms of size and they would have the monopoly.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting GSPFlyer (Reply 88):
I would rule out DTW, as DL already serves DTW-ICN.

You may have a point, but for our sake here at DTW I hope you're wrong on that one! Maybe it is just wishful thinking that DL will invite more Skyteam activity here.
Now you're flying smart
 
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thekorean
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:02 am

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 91):

Any Korean car makers doing business in Michigan? There are good sized Korean students in Ann Arbor.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:21 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 92):
Any Korean car makers doing business in Michigan? There are good sized Korean students in Ann Arbor.

Hyundai has a large technical center just down the road from DTW, about halfway between the airport and Ann Arbor. Beyond that I'm not certain of what else is around.
Now you're flying smart
 
toltommy
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 92):
There are good sized Korean students in Ann Arbor.

The ones I've seen around Ann Arbor seem normal sized.....   
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alphaomega
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:28 am

Quoting tlecam (Reply 3):

BOS. Based on nothing other than everyone else seems to be doing it.   

In all seriousness, KE used to serve this market and although there has been a lot of Far East growth out of BOS to Hong Kong, Japan and China, Seoul may be able to support traffic. BOS also has a sizeable DL presence, although the relationship between DL and KE seems to be frigid.

This is it - they have been rumored around BOS since JAL started service, just waiting to have the right aircraft available for the market. Look for a spring start.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:33 am

Korean to expand into any market here would rely on connections to other markets throughout Asia. Those connections will boost the numbers especially if they pick a city with no flights to Asia. Plus they might get some connections on the US side depending on what city they pick.
 
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Miami
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 84):
Of course MIA expanding the American Airlines codeshare to the Caribbean, Central & South America, and giving Anderson something to huff & and puff about

This reminds me. Korean Air and Delta are not very close friends anymore. And there were and I believe there still is rumors of Korean Air joining OneWorld ever since they began a partnership with American. Though, it seems unlikely that they will leave SkyTeam because they are a founding member. But anything is possible.


We shall see.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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PA727
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 84):
Of course MIA expanding the American Airlines codeshare to the Caribbean, Central & South America, and giving Anderson something to huff & and puff about
Quoting thekorean (Reply 85):
Which would probably mean they are switching ships to OneWorld I reckon.

Probably not going to happen on CX or JL's watch, but I would do cartwheels over a KE switch to OneWorld.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 92):
There are good sized Korean students in Ann Arbor.

Are the Korean students in Michigan actually bigger than Korean students elsewhere?  
  
 
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nickflightx
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:12 am

SJC I think will be a good contender. Samsung is creating a big headquarters here and I bet they would want that link. I have heard they were looking at SJC anyway. Wouldn't really surprise me.
 
KD5MDK
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RE: Rumor: Korean Air Looking To Expand Into The US

Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:49 am

Is AUS-ICN less than 10PDEW? I suppose as long as AA has the Samsung contract it effectively is.

[Edited 2015-07-21 20:49:31]

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