Aircraft Flap Found In La Réunion (RUN)

747megatop · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting Titania (Reply 133):
It was found floating near the shore and was lifted out of the water

Again, asking the same question again...does anyone know how long this part could float in salt water? Days..months..years?

PieterBoth · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting Western727 (Reply 140):

Quoting Miami (Reply 135):
- A debris from the crash of a twin-engine occurred May 4, 2006 close to the southern coast of the island.

Anyone know what aircraft was involved?

It was a Piper Aztec flying from Pierrefonds (ZSE) to St. Denis (RUN). it crashed into the sea shortly after take off from Pierrefonds which is located on the south coast of Réunion.

TXspotter · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 147):

incorrect. The flaperon will have a PN of 113W6100-XX if it ends in an odd number then it is the left hand flaperon. even number is right hand flaperon.

NZ107 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 148):

Indeed, unless there are some sort of perception of depth differences, I'd say the 777 one posted in 138 looks far more streamlined than the one which was found on Reunion.

rwessel · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 107):
That is not impossible. An object in water will eventully flow t the speed the water does and currents can be considerably stronger than that.

I just wanted to say that for a unpowered floating object this small, "eventually" is a matter of seconds. An extremely large object will have enough inertia relative to the surface area in the water that it can take some more time, but even large ships that lose power will be drifting with the current in minutes.

External forces can change the path, of course. Obviously if some part were hitting the seafloor (unlikely here) that would change the speed. Much more important is just how much sail area the object has. What's above the water will feel the force of the wind, and that will impact the direction and speed. The object in question is being carried by four men who don't appear to be straining much, so that puts an upper limit on its mass, perhaps 300lbs (and likely rather less than that). The volume of the object is pretty obviously more than the ~3.5 cubic feet needed to make a 300lb object float, so it *could* have had a substantial amount of area out of the water and absorbing energy from the wind. OTOH, we don't know what the actual watertight volume was, which could have been quite a bit smaller (although it obviously would have been enough to keep the object afloat). And if we are talking about sail area, the aerodynamics of what's sticking out of the water and the hydrodynamics of what's in the water become important to consider (think about a sailboat).

But the point remains that this could have traveled a *long* way in the past 500 days. Frankly it should have been able to take *several* loops around the Indian Ocean gyre before being spotted off La Réunion.

Miami · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:15 pm

We should know in the next few hours if debris is from MH370

MKIAZ · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 153):

Indeed, unless there are some sort of perception of depth differences, I'd say the 777 one posted in 138 looks far more streamlined than the one which was found on Reunion.

I'd say it looks pretty damn close. The thin part on the back is missing, making it look thicker

TXspotter · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:25 pm

Here is the Right Hand Flaperon to the same aircraft in post 138. This is repaired too. You can see the metal formations on the outboard side of the flaperon. The data plate is on the other side (inboard side).

This PN is 113W6100-10

Hopefully this give some more depth perception. Unfortunately I do not have pictures of our units in As Removed (AR) condition. I'll see if I can dig some up.

stasisLAX · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:32 pm

CNN News is reporting the object is just over 8 feet long and 3 feet wide. The French military authorities have possession of the object, and the French BEA will shortly be inspecting it. Would have to be a commercial aircraft for something that large, correct? The piece is said to be very "weathered" and has "shells" (barnicles) attached to the "underside". They also mentioned that a Yemini A310 crashed in the area, and also a South African 747 was lost in that area.

[Edited 2015-07-29 14:36:58]

B777fan · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:33 pm

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 148):
The 138 post is smaller and the rivets do not match up

You're suggesting that the found flaperon is bigger than a 777 flaperon. That is doubtful.

I also think you need to think about scale in the pictures in post 138. Those are good size pieces of wood that are standing near by, the posts are at least 4x4. When you compare it to the wood and then the pictures of the recovered flaperon I think you can tell they size up very much alike. Also it is clear that a significant portion of the rear of the recovered flaperon is missing making it significantly smaller than the one in post 138.

Your comment about the rivet lines also appears incorrect. First, there are very few rivets visible in post 138 but the long line of rivets that appear to be along a rear spar or stiffener line up well with the ripped off part of the flaperon. Also the forward corner pieces of skin match very well with the skin in the photo.

I am not willing to call it yet, as I haven't seen any drawings or pictures from an A310 which seems to be the only real possibility. But while similar parts on similar sized airplanes often look very similar, the engineering details are usually very different.

I'm building my second airplane now and the flaperon looks surprisingly similar to my much smaller flap, but one could never mistake one for the other. The similarity between the pictures in post 138 and the recovered flaperon are telling.

Post 157 now has a much better view.

[Edited 2015-07-29 14:38:28]

Finn350 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:35 pm

From twitter The Associated Press (@AP)

BREAKING: US official: Debris in photo belongs to same type of aircraft as the missing Malaysia plane.

B777fan · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 153):
unless there are some sort of perception of depth differences

Indeed, there clearly are perspective differences that account for your perceptions of thinness.

tortugamon · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:39 pm

Coming out on the AP. 'Same aircraft type' pretty much seals it for me. All other 777s seem to be accounted for and I don't see this being a spare part that someone dumped. It seems pretty clear. Hope this helps some of the families impacted.

tortugamon

TXspotter · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting B777fan (Reply 159):

Quoting B777fan (Reply 159):
You're suggesting that the found flaperon is bigger than a 777 flaperon. That is doubtful.

I also think you need to think about scale in the pictures in post 138. Those are good size pieces of wood that are standing near by, the posts are at least 4x4. When you compare it to the wood and then the pictures of the recovered flaperon I think you can tell they size up very much alike. Also it is clear that a significant portion of the rear of the recovered flaperon is missing making it significantly smaller than the one in post 138.

We sent both flaps out on repair in one large wooden box (partially seen in pictures). The box with the flaperons in it was 108"X73"X54" weighing 807lbs

edmountain · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:43 pm

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 148):
with my untrained eye I would say he picture of what was found and shown in post 14 and the flatiron posted in 138 are similar but certainly not the same. The 138 post is smaller and the rivets do not match up....

There are certainly differences but if I'm not mistaken the factory version shows the inboard aspect of the part whereas the salty version shows the outboard aspect of the part so I'm not sure how much the rivets would be expected to match up.

airportugal310 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 158):
CNN News is reporting the object is just over 8 feet long and 3 feet wide. Would have to be a commercial aircraft for something that large, correct? The piece is said to be very "weathered" and has "shells" (barnicles) attached to the "underside". They also mentioned that a Yemini A310 crashed in the area, and also a South African 747 was lost in that area.

They are only mentioning that because they are likely getting their information off of this website!! It's only a matter of time until some of the pics on this thread show up on CNN, too

ap305 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:48 pm

The small rectangular holes are missing in the discovered part...

edmountain · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:52 pm

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ca0fe...al-debris-photo-belongs-boeing-777

"A U.S. official says air safety investigators have a "high degree of confidence" that a photo of aircraft debris found in the Indian Ocean is of a wing component unique to the Boeing 777"

"The official says investigators — including a Boeing air safety investigator — have identified the component as a "flaperon" from the trailing edge of a 777 wing."

B777fan · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:52 pm

Quoting Txspotter (Reply 163):
We sent both flaps out on repair in one large wooden box (partially seen in pictures). The box with the flaperons in it was 108"X73"X54" weighing 807lbs

Thanks Txspotter for the pics and information. The size of the crate fits well with the size described by CNN.

B777fan · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting edmountain (Reply 167):
The small rectangular holes are missing in the discovered part...

Those aren't holes... Data plate maybe, inspection stickers, adhesive but not holes.

Aesma · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:58 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 139):
Much more importantly, it would provide important data for better definition of a search area and/or justification for restarting the search in the known area. Between the satellite pings, the location and date of this find and known ocean currents, a much greater certainty about where the 777 probably went down could be achieved.

Remember AF447 ? The search zone was pretty known, until the airplane was found outside of it, because all the fancy calculations were wrong !

jpetekyxmd80 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting ap305 (Reply 166):

The small rectangular holes are missing in the discovered part...

Not holes... have you been right about anything in this thread?

Quoting ap305 (Reply 55):

The profile of the part appears very different to what we see of the 777 inboard flaps. It looks from a more stubby wing perhaps a military aircraft.

Quoting ap305 (Reply 7):
Looks quite different to a 777 inboard...

edmountain · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:02 pm

Richard Quest is back on the TV. I'm sure he'll get it all sorted for us.

TXspotter · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:05 pm

Last picture I have. This is the RH flaperon.

Quoting B777fan (Reply 168):
Thanks Txspotter for the pics and information. The size of the crate fits well with the size described by CNN.

You bet. Still looking for more pictures.

rwessel · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:07 pm

Quoting ap305 (Reply 166):

The small rectangular holes are missing in the discovered part...

Looking at the picture from Txspotter, I don't think there are any rectangular holes. The "hole" nearest the leading edge is clearly a data plate, and not a hole. If you bring up the actual picture Txspotter posted, and then zoom in, you can see it's the data plate in his next picture, you can even see the hand writing above it.

While the rear-most one is a little harder to tell, it looks like something attached to the surface of the structure as well, likely another data plate or some sort of patch or reinforcement.

ap305 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:07 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 171):

Not holes... have you been right about anything in this thread?

I would be just as relieved as everyone else on this site if that piece is from mh370.... It does not matter if I am right or wrong. I am just pointing out what I am seeing.

[Edited 2015-07-29 15:08:40]

Aaron747 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:09 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 153):
Indeed, unless there are some sort of perception of depth differences, I'd say the 777 one posted in 138 looks far more streamlined than the one which was found on Reunion.

It is just a difference of scale. As I noted way back in reply 6, the taper and rivet lines are consistent with the 777 flaperon.

The maintenance manual diagrams and details of the factory-new versions seal the deal.

jpetekyxmd80 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:10 pm

If this is indeed from MH370, it could very well be able to provide insight into the flights last moments.

This is pure conjecture, but the missing/torn off/eroded part at the trailing edge could very well have been caused by a stable, horizontal flight in which the flaps were in a down position on impact with the sea.

That would be a complete game changer in the investigation, leaving little doubt of motive and challenging search areas based on unmanned flight.

bennett123 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:11 pm

IMO, the thickness in reply 164 is NOT the same.

The B777 Flaperon is much more much slimmer.

Could be an illusion I suppose.

32andBelow · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:12 pm

Guy on CNN just said the only other 777 to crash was BA at LHR

klwright69 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:17 pm

Well, I don't believe it could be from the Yemenia crash or the Ethopian crash, both in the waters off Comoros. Madagascar is smack dab between Reunion and Comoros. Besides those accidents were a really long time ago. The South African Heldeberg crash? That was almost 30 years ago, not even that far away, near Mauritius. Anything is possible, but these other scenarios don't seem to really fit.

Sooner787 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:17 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 178):
IMO, the thickness in reply 164 is NOT the same.

The B777 Flaperon is much more much slimmer.

Could be an illusion I suppose.

The slimmest part of the trailing edge is sheared way on the piece they found.

Someone earlier suggested that might mean a controlled ditching at sea?

aviatorcraig · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:24 pm

In the interview with the guys that found the part in the sea, they said they were in the area of "Bois-Rouge". A quick check on Google Maps of Reunion Island shows this area to be coastline between Saint-Suzanne and Saint-Andre on the Northeast coast of the island.
Although local tides could possibly carry a floating item to most parts of the island, the North East coast is bang-on where you would expect a piece of floating debris to wash up if carried on the anti-clockwise Indian Ocean gyre from the area of search West of Australia.

Aesma · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:25 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 179):
Guy on CNN just said the only other 777 to crash was BA at LHR

Clearly a random guy who doesn't know what he's talking about, then.

JCS · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:25 pm

two professionals (KLM) at Dutch site Luchtvaartnieuws.nl agree it is from a T7.

enilria · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:25 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 170):
Remember AF447 ? The search zone was pretty known, until the airplane was found outside of it, because all the fancy calculations were wrong !

Even though no plane was found in the search zone, people seem sure it was there don't they?

Quoting edmountain (Reply 172):
Richard Quest is back on the TV. I'm sure he'll get it all sorted for us.

I'm glad he's not in rehab and is here to tell us the difference between a 777 and a Cessna 402.

32andBelow · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:29 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 183):
Clearly a random guy who doesn't know what he's talking about, then.

No I think they said he used to be in charge of NTSB. LOL

Armodeen · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:30 pm

Quoting Txspotter (Reply 173):

Thanks for your insights in this thread, most helpful.

klwright69 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:31 pm

Well, there is an article I just read that said Boeing says a certain detail, that they refuse to disclose indicates it's from a 777.

ap305 · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:31 pm

https://twitter.com/jonostrower

Quote:
Boeing engineers - unaffiliated with the investigation - who have reviewed the photos say the debris is consistent with the 777. #MH370

747megatop · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:35 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 179):
Guy on CNN just said the only other 777 to crash was BA at LHR

BA 777 @ LHR, OZ 777 @ SFO, MH 17 and MH 370 = Grand total of 4 T7 crashes

RDUDDJI · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:39 pm

Unnamed "U.S. Official" has a "high degree of confidence" that this is a 777 part.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...crash-debris-idUSKCN0Q32PM20150729

Quoting Aesma (Reply 183):
Clearly a random guy who doesn't know what he's talking about, then.

Yeah, CNN's airline/aviation specialists are terrible (and their on air personalities can't tell the difference between a CRJ and a 777).

747megatop · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:40 pm

"Boeing investigators have looked at photos of the fragment and say that they believe it is from a 777 aircraft, sources told NBC News Wednesday afternoon"

Source - http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mis...-french-island-clues-mh370-n400586

So, if this new story is accurate then it is MH 370 after all!

OMP777X · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:42 pm

I just posted this in the MH370 thread... Lester Holt and NBC claim Boeing has acknowledged that this debris is from a 777, and that 9M-MRO is the only 777 unaccounted for, so they have basically confirmed this is MH370.

There really is no other way to explain this flaperon debris from a 777 washing up on the beach, other than using conspiracy theories to figure it out (it was planted there, etc).

Best,

OMP777X

[Edited 2015-07-29 15:48:42]

TXspotter · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:45 pm

look at the number of large rivets on the side of each picture. It appears 7 large rivet heads appear with two next to each other on the top and on the bottom

X X
X
X
X
X X

That seems to indicate scale where my pictures point of view is different than that of the picture of the piece which was found.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 190):
BA 777 @ LHR, OZ 777 @ SFO, MH 17 and MH 370 = Grand total of 4 T7 crashes

Egypt Air is 5 but not sure if considered a crash or simply write-off

kann123air · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 179):
Guy on CNN just said the only other 777 to crash was BA at LHR

Quoting Aesma (Reply 183):
Clearly a random guy who doesn't know what he's talking about, then.

Saw him say that and chuckled.

The piece certainly looks promising to my amateur eyes.

Amrit

enilria · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 193):

I just posted this in the MH370 thread... Lester Holt and NBC claim Boeing has acknowledged that this debris is from a 777, and that MH370 since it is the only 777 unaccounted for, so they have basically confirmed this is it.

Now they should retitle this thread. It's much too vague for most people to know what it is about.

scbriml · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 190):
MH 17

Personally, I'd be somewhat wary of calling MH17 a "crash".

In a stunning piece of irony, on the very day that it seems a piece of MH370 has been found, Russia vetoes a UN resolution for a criminal tribunal into the shooting down of MH17.

Miami · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:47 pm

Big news! Boeing says the only missing plane of that type is the MH370.

32andBelow · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:48 pm

So, if they have the serial number how is this taking more than 12 seconds to verify?

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