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PlaneInsomniac
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Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:39 pm

As expected, Russia has vetoed an international UN-backed tribunal on MH17, which had been proposed by Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-3...-backed-tribunal-over-mh17/6658620

Reportedly Putin has called the idea of such a Tribunal "counter-productive":
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...-putin-tells-dutch-prime-minister/
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alfa164
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Thread starter):
Reportedly Putin has called the idea of such a Tribunal "counter-productive":

To Putin, anything that exposes the truth is "counterproductive".

Russia's denials, stone-walling, and disinformation campaign has ben disgraceful. It must be horribly tragic to the friends and families of the victims to see this charade being played out. Someday, I hope, Russia will be made to pay for its sins.
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lugie
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:39 pm

It's so obvious MH17 was shot down by western-backed evil Ukrainian fascists and not the separatists who are not in any way supported by the Russians at all. Putin just wants to spare us sheeples with the brutal truth, solely because he's such a good guy

/Irony off

That is the second news today with the potential to bust a whole array of conspiracies, coincidentally both ranking around MHs recent losses.

I hope truth will be revealed anyway, there should be other ways Putin can't block.
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scbriml
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:49 pm

Sadly inevitable. Also sadly ironic given today's finding of what will likely be confirmed as the first piece of MH370 wreckage.
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Sightseer
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Thread starter):
Russia has vetoed an international UN-backed tribunal on MH17

Well of course they did.
 
upwardfacing
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:59 am

Put in the same place, any other of the P5 members would have done exactly the same.
 
pipeafcr
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:03 am

Is this thread necessary? I feel like it can go in one of the other, open, MH17 threads.

Also it'll be great if we can keep politics out of this to best of our abilities.
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csturdiv
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:21 am

Quoting pipeafcr (Reply 6):
Is this thread necessary? I feel like it can go in one of the other, open, MH17 threads.

And what woyuld one of those other open MH17 threads be? There is not one on the first two pages of topics in this forum.
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alfa164
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:37 am

Quoting pipeafcr (Reply 6):

Is this thread necessary? I feel like it can go in one of the other, open, MH17 threads.

Because this is a completely new topic; a new development (however unfortunate) in the saga of MH17 and its victims.
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eielef
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:45 am

It could lead to the discussion often proposed by Germans of the Veto Power on the UNSC. I think this is a waste of space. I'm also for closing this thread.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:38 am

Quoting pipeafcr (Reply 6):
Also it'll be great if we can keep politics out of this to best of our abilities.

Russia vetoing the resolution is all Politics. How can it not be?

The bottom line is that a joint investigation team, led by the Netherlands, is about to issue a report. We don't know what conclusions that report has in it yet but it is widely expected to conclude that MH17 was shot down by a missile.

A UN backed Criminal Court is then the obvious place to further investigate the matter and bring any perpetrators to justice. Russia vetoing this is effectively Russia denying Justice to the families of the victims who deserve justice and closure on this issue. And if the Russians truly have nothing to hide you'd think they would support its establishment in order to clear themselves of involvement / make sure blame was apportioned to the appropriate people who actually did it.

Bottom line, this is a setback for civil aviation and for airlines and passengers which need to learn from this incident.
 
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:48 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 10):
Russia vetoing the resolution is all Politics. How can it not be?

The bottom line is that a joint investigation team, led by the Netherlands, is about to issue a report. We don't know what conclusions that report has in it yet but it is widely expected to conclude that MH17 was shot down by a missile.

A UN backed Criminal Court is then the obvious place to further investigate the matter and bring any perpetrators to justice. Russia vetoing this is effectively Russia denying Justice to the families of the victims who deserve justice and closure on this issue. And if the Russians truly have nothing to hide you'd think they would support its establishment in order to clear themselves of involvement / make sure blame was apportioned to the appropriate people who actually did it.

All true.

Unfortunately, turkeys rarely vote for Christmas.

The irony, of course, which is quite lost on people like Mr Putin, is that the act of using Russia's veto is essentially seen by the world as a signed confession of Russian guilt. It has quite the opposite of the intended effect.
 
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:18 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 11):
All true.

Unfortunately, turkeys rarely vote for Christmas.

The irony, of course, which is quite lost on people like Mr Putin, is that the act of using Russia's veto is essentially seen by the world as a signed confession of Russian guilt. It has quite the opposite of the intended effect.

Exactly. I know Russia likes to be obstructionist of the West but surely having this process and having them strongly represented and presenting evidence to dispute the findings they don't like from the investigation team, will actually lead to a better outcome for all parties including, ironically, the Russians. Using a Veto basically is like waving their hand up and saying "I did it" without them having a formal forum, governed by people who are Jurists and can be selected to be as impartial as possible, to then rebut evidence and advocate their own position.

This is effectively exactly the same scenario that the US had over the USS Vincennes incident then it shot down Iran Air 655.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:21 am

I am very disappointed that so many members of this community base their opinion on "assumed guilt" and "guilt by association."
As a Russian, I believe that truth will be revealed.
And many people will be ashamed.

I keep waiting for DSB report.
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:23 am

Quoting eielef (Reply 9):
I think this is a waste of space.

A massive aviation disaster will not be investigated by an independent panel by the single organisaiton on earth that represents all nations. Yeah, why should it be discussed on an aviation website?

Quoting eielef (Reply 9):
I'm also for closing this thread.

How very Putinesque of you.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 11):
The irony, of course, which is quite lost on people like Mr Putin, is that the act of using Russia's veto is essentially seen by the world as a signed confession of Russian guilt. It has quite the opposite of the intended effect.

Hopefully. Here's hoping the ramifications of this plays out in full for the Russian authorities. Without question, the Ukraine adventure has been a catastrophe for everyone involved. I'd argue, Putin too.
 
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:37 am

Quoting eielef (Reply 9):
I'm also for closing this thread.

Are you Pylon101 in disguise?

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 13):
I am very disappointed that so many members of this community base their opinion on "assumed guilt" and "guilt by association."

Ah, perhaps not.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 13):
As a Russian, I believe that truth will be revealed.

Not if Putin can help it, it won't.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 13):
And many people will be ashamed.

They'll all be Russian.   
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macc
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:45 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 13):
As a Russian, I believe that truth will be revealed.

So, why then not a UN tribunal? What other institution can you think of?
Or is the truth only true when it comes from the Kremlin?
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aryonoco
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:51 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 13):
And many people will be ashamed.

Shame is written all over the face of the people who have vetoed establishing a tribunal to bring the perpetrators to justice.

So many amazing people including researchers from all over the world lost their lives. It still brings me to tears just to think about it.
 
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:58 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 13):
I am very disappointed that so many members of this community base their opinion on "assumed guilt" and "guilt by association."
As a Russian, I believe that truth will be revealed.
And many people will be ashamed.

I keep waiting for DSB report.

So if the DSB report contains evidence or conclusions that Russia doesn't like, surely there should be a formal international forum under which Russia can test evidence, provide rebuttals and call witnesses? The establishment of this tribunal, which would have been presided over by respected International Judges, would have been the best forum Russia could have had to do all of this. But they voted against it.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 14):
Without question, the Ukraine adventure has been a catastrophe for everyone involved. I'd argue, Putin too

Not really. What Putin has achieved is de-stabilisation and the capture of additional territory. Territory which, in the case of Crimea, no-one is willing to fight him for. So from his point of view he's gotten to pick on a neighbour and has largely gotten away with it.
 
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:15 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 12):
Exactly. I know Russia likes to be obstructionist of the West but surely having this process and having them strongly represented and presenting evidence to dispute the findings they don't like from the investigation team, will actually lead to a better outcome for all parties including, ironically, the Russians. Using a Veto basically is like waving their hand up and saying "I did it" without them having a formal forum, governed by people who are Jurists and can be selected to be as impartial as possible, to then rebut evidence and advocate their own position.

Agreed. Rather than subverting the investigation process, they should be actively working to absolve themselves of wrongdoing. Actions like this hardly act to profess innocence to an already skeptical international community. I don't believe Russia has anything to gain from pretending like they had absolutely no involvement here. They would be better off throwing a group of separatists under the bus and, at the very least, promote the illusion that they are cooperating with the international investigation. Simply denying all involvement while attempting to suppress evidence and hinder the investigation might work with their internal politics, but it will win them no favor abroad. It's just another example of Russia further isolating itself from the west, making international sanctions that much more likely to continue, and thereby further escalating tensions between the two sides. With this attitude, things will inevitably continue to get worse between the west and Russia.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 12):
This is effectively exactly the same scenario that the US had over the USS Vincennes incident then it shot down Iran Air 655.

I'm not sure I'd call it exactly the same, but similar nonetheless. While we don't yet understand the entirety of the circumstances surrounding MH17, the USS Vincennes incident was a tragic series of mistakes brought about by poor technology, poor decisions in the heat of the moment, previous instances of Iranian F-14s utilizing civil aircraft transponder modes, and an overall breakdown of procedure. I firmly believe that had the captain been aware that it was a commercial aircraft that the shootdown would not have transpired; unfortunately they incorrectly identified the aircraft and failed to verify their target. Subsequent failures on the part of the US during the investigation only served to make matters worse. The way the shootdown occurred and the US actions which followed remain an ugly stain on US military and political history.

In the case of MH17, we don't yet know if similar events transpired in which the aircraft was incorrectly identified as a military target. It could be that the shootdown was simply a random act of violence on a target recklessly assumed to be a hostile target without verification, or perhaps if it was intentionally targeted as a civilian airliner. Given the difficulties in obtaining access to the site by investigators, Russia's unwillingness to comply with the investigation despite their possibly being in possession of the FDRs/CVRs (I believe this is still the allegation?), and an inability to conduct a thorough investigation since the site is still an active warzone, the end result of the investigation will likely be less than complete for the foreseeable future. It may be clear how, where, and what destroyed the aircraft, but the who and why along with the motives and moments leading up to MH17 being targeted will probably remain unclear, as will Russia's possible involvement.

Unfortunately for Russia, there is precedent for Russia downing a commercial airliner and subsequently burying evidence to hinder an accident investigation, so similar circumstances transpiring yet again only adds fuel to the fire.
 
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:21 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 13):
As a Russian, I believe that truth will be revealed.

Yes, as a Russian you want a "truth" to fit your agenda.

As a human being, you should open your eyes to the blindingly obvious. Who do you think gave them the missile launcher.. a deranged easter bunny?

Ultimately it was a "mistake" and "accident" in terms of target. But it was like Russia giving a toddler a loaded handgun.

Never underestimate the powers of delusion and denial. In reality you are doing nothing but broadcasting to the world how brainwashed you are. How can any part of this even be in doubt? Amazing

[Edited 2015-07-30 01:24:32]
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pylon101
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:30 am

So far I have no idea how DSB is going to deal with evidence.
If it was a BUK missile, DSB would not be able ignore the manufacturer. Which is Almaz-Antey.
If DSB is in doubt in respect of Almaz-Antey's analysis, a full scale experiment is being offered.

If DSB is unable to provide a consistent report, the case should be taken over by ICAO.
Having in mind the importance of the event, it would be reasonable if ICAO conducts its own investigation No.4.

The resolution vetoed by Russia proposed to engage the notorious Article VII.
Sorry. Russia has already made this mistake with Libya. We abstained to allow establishing "no-fly" zone.
And you all know what happened then.
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moo
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:34 am

Why wouldn't Russia veto something that would be used solely to beat them over the head multiple times?

Also, were there ever any UN tribunals for any of the other airliner shootdowns, or will this be the first?
 
eielef
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:58 am

It was clear from the beginning.
Not many of us really knows what was the resolution about, how it was drafted, what it contained. We only know that Russia vetoed it, so we can now just say: Russia shot MH17.
How can you form a tribunal (and why with those members) if you haven't any hard evidence yet?
Procedure law often ask to have someone suspected, do an investigation, and if guilty, take him to a trial.
Here they want to start the tribunal (the trial) before even haven't finished the investigation.

Please: open up your minds.
http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150730/1025199426.html
http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150729/1025193830.html
 
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Semaex
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:05 am

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 5):
Put in the same place, any other of the P5 members would have done exactly the same.

You may be right. But then again, no other nation has shot down a civilian aircraft with 298 people on board. So it's hard to say what other nations would do. It's a case of "what if" which nobody can answer.

Quoting moo (Reply 22):
Also, were there ever any UN tribunals for any of the other airliner shootdowns, or will this be the first?

We all know there have been airliner shotdowns before. Forgive my lack of in-depth knowledge, but the first two cases that pop to my mind is the American aircraft which entered Russian airspace unintentionally in the midst of the cold war and thus was shot down. The second is the Iranian aircraft shot by the US Navy.

The difference between those two and the MH over Ukraine is that clear facts point to Russia yet they are in complete denial, while the other two tragic events were discussed (comparatively) open and were then investigated.

Were there UN tribunals? I don't know. Are UN tribunals necessary if the truth is revealed and a multinational consent is found? Not really.


But in order to give my comment a more neutral face:

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 1):
To Putin, anything that exposes the truth is "counterproductive".

Russia's denials, stone-walling, and disinformation campaign has ben disgraceful. It must be horribly tragic to the friends and families of the victims to see this charade being played out. Someday, I hope, Russia will be made to pay for its sins.

Your government has made cover-ups, desinformation and "sinning" a game of epic proportions in which you are the world champion. No need to name examples, we all know them.
I don't think a lot of nations or people are in any position to point fingers at the "sins" (gosh I adore this word in that context) of others. A so-called christian nation should know better not to throw the first stone. You've got a hell lot of skeletons in your closet.
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TheSonntag
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:12 am

Quoting eielef (Reply 23):

Sputniknews is just another russian propaganda mechanism. Not worth citing. Its all just deliberate propagande disinformation. This might work in russia, but we in the west fortunately are able to freely choose which press we want to believe - and that is not Fox News nor CNN, but neither those pathetic russian propaganda leaflets.
 
eielef
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:14 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 25):
Sputniknews is just another russian propaganda mechanism. Not worth citing.

There are no many Russian sources available in English. I could an article of your choice of any other Russian media.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:27 am

Quoting eielef (Reply 26):
There are no many Russian sources available in English.

There is generally not much independent russian media left.
 
eielef
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:48 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 27):
There is generally not much independent russian media left.

So then Russian's have no voice? They are the main country blamed for this tragedy. So should we just not listen to them? To their journalists? To their experts? To their government?
 
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pvjin
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:04 pm

Quoting eielef (Reply 28):

Their government is lying, their experts work for the government which means they really can't say anything that would oppose Russian government's statements, unless they want to lose their jobs.

The media is heavily self-censored, telling the truth about MH17 would get anyone doing so fired or worse. Being a dissident in Russia is not a very good idea if you want to avoid jail and reach the retirement age.

Listening to the Russian media when it comes to these things is like trying to get a good picture of what happens in North Korea based on their own news reports.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
eielef
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:18 pm

So what? 140+ million people has no right to think, to write, and even to have an opinion wether they are or not to be blamed?
Reading never hurts anyone
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:31 pm

MH17 was shot down by a Russian or Russian-supported SAM crew which may have been incompetent, trigger-happy or drunk, but did not intend to shoot down a Malaysian airliner. All they could be accused of is negligence. Moscow probably has long dealt with these guys somewhere in Siberia, but is obviously not going to admit any involvement in the tragedy under the current government.

The Dutch governemnt's insistance on a tribunal or trial is completely naive, and I don't believe this is helpful to the victims at all.
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SeJoWa
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:50 pm

Quoting eielef (Reply 30):

So what? 140+ million people has no right to think, to write, and even to have an opinion wether they are or not to be blamed?
Reading never hurts anyone

Precisely the problem under Putin.

The last independent Russian TV broadcaster, Dozdh ["rain"], was forced to relocate to the internet. http://tvrain.ru/

Just like the Crimean Tatar TV station was forced to close, and has since relocated to Kiev.

What now passes for TV news in Russia is a daily deluge of pretty vile state propaganda.

There's still Echo Moskvy radio station left, and one or two reasonably independent newspapers - their sites can be read via Google translation.

QUOTE [editor in chief of Echo of Moscow radio]/
"he [Putin] burned to death all competition, all alternative opinions in all spheres—now everything, including aggressive lies and propaganda about Ukraine is the consequence. The competition’s been destroyed when it comes to decisions on the economy, in the political field, in opposition and in ideology—as a result obscurantism took over in all decisions.”
/UNQUOTE
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ast-independent-radio-newsman.html
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting eielef (Reply 28):
So then Russian's have no voice? They are the main country blamed for this tragedy. So should we just not listen to them? To their journalists? To their experts? To their government?

Pretty much, yeah - ignore them. Russian institutions from the judiciary to political to police to the media don't have a whole lot of credibility left. It's why Russian posters in website comments and forums are often met with heavy skepticism and sometimes hostility - the Russian propaganda machine at work, clumsily and obvious, of course. It's the price you pay for dictatorship and corruption. Oh and invasion.

Remember how the US lost credibility following its misadventures abroad just a decade ago? Their leaders, their media, their military... all suffered a massive loss of credibility across the world. Now the same for Russia.

If the UN, or ICAO, which is part of the UN, isn't allowed to set up an independent tribunal for what is a criminal event, after 11 members of the Security Council voted for it, and all because of Russia, well you can kind of understand why the world turns its back on Putin's regime.
 
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moo
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 33):
If the UN, or ICAO, which is part of the UN, isn't allowed to set up an independent tribunal for what is a criminal event, after 11 members of the Security Council voted for it, and all because of Russia, well you can kind of understand why the world turns its back on Putin's regime.

We can play that sort of game all the time however, given the number of times other members of the UNSC have vetoed things passed by all other voting members. That's what the veto is there for, to ensure any imbalance in the UNSC cannot be used against a fellow member.

Don't for a moment begin to pretend that this situation is unique.
 
Western727
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:02 pm

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 11):
The irony, of course, which is quite lost on people like Mr Putin, is that the act of using Russia's veto is essentially seen by the world as a signed confession of Russian guilt. It has quite the opposite of the intended effect.

As a parent, anytime my two kids try to prevent a "case" from being looked at in which they might be found responsible...almost universally results in them indeed being subsequently found responsible. Any time my kids welcome scrutiny, my wife and I will then typically find them not responsible. Any parent knows this. It's called common sense.
Jack @ AUS
 
ytz
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting eielef (Reply 30):
So what? 140+ million people has no right to think, to write, and even to have an opinion wether they are or not to be blamed?

Nobody is taking away their write to be propaganda consuming and expounding sheeple. It's just that the rest of the world doesn't really accept that their propaganda has factual value.

It's like a school child citing tabloids as sources for an essay. The teacher would fail him/her for that.

Quoting eielef (Reply 30):
Reading never hurts anyone

Tell that to the hoardes of European Jews living in the 1930s and 1940s.....
 
ytz
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting eielef (Reply 30):
So what? 140+ million people has no right to think, to write, and even to have an opinion wether they are or not to be blamed?

Nobody is taking away their write to be propaganda consuming and expounding sheeple. It's just that the rest of the world doesn't really accept that their propaganda has factual value.

It's like a school child citing tabloids as sources for an essay. The teacher would fail him/her for that.

Quoting eielef (Reply 30):
Reading never hurts anyone

Tell that to the hoardes of European Jews living in the 1930s and 1940s.....


What makes all this particularly offensive is that this would have been a forum where Russia could have presented its own evidence. It's not even interested in presenting anything. Putin is hoping to just end the discussion on MH17.
 
AR385
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RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:24 pm

Quoting eielef (Reply 28):
So then Russian's have no voice? They are the main country blamed for this tragedy. So should we just not listen to them? To their journalists? To their experts? To their government?

No. Russia is currently a bankrupt dictatorship with an unstable guy at the helm with delusions of grandeur. Their journalists are threatened, at the very least, killed, or bribed into writing what the State (Putin, re: "L´etat c´est moi") wants them to write. Their experts in this particular instance, will behave just as the journalists. Their government, again, is Putin.

Quoting eielef (Reply 30):
So what? 140+ million people has no right to think, to write, and even to have an opinion wether they are or not to be blamed?
Reading never hurts anyone

They voted for Putin, and most wholeheartedly support him. So, whatever rights they´ve lost is the consequence of their decisions. And whatever suffering they endure is their own to suffer. Democracy is a two edge sword. Why should they have an opinion? Their very own "government" does not let them have a genuine one. Why should the West even listen to those fabricated and false "opinions" And frankly, these days, although the usual crowd here would have us believe otherwise, oftern pathetically so, Russians have no right to think, write or even read, what they genuinely want to. Those rights have been taken a while ago.

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 31):
The Dutch governemnt's insistance on a tribunal or trial is completely naive, and I don't believe this is helpful to the victims at all.

I think you are missing the point. Nobody expected that Russia would not vetoe this. The Netherlands is simply doing this for the very strong symbolism it has, and the message it sends. And Russia is not afraid of the tribunal. Not even afraid of the "truth" coming out. They simply don´t give a flying dingo. But the Dutch gesture, rather than naive, is very harsh, and very symbolic.

If Russia had been smart, and not behaved as the current playground bully they like to behave these days, they would have agreed, and robbed the Dutch of all the symbolism of their call for a tribunal. Russians would have still stalled, delayed and lied. But at least it would have been lots more subtle and political. But, as I said, they don´t care.
 
bhill
Posts: 1883
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 5):
Put in the same place, any other of the P5 members would have done exactly the same.

Except when one of them did shoot down a civilian airliner, we fessed up.

If it walks like a duck...
Carpe Pices
 
bhill
Posts: 1883
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 21):
If DSB is unable to provide a consistent report, the case should be taken over by ICAO.

Riiight....with what evidence? Col. Putin's thugs took care of that issue, as we can be SURE the chain of evidence AND the secure storage of same has been maintained.
Carpe Pices
 
pipeafcr
Posts: 430
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:47 am

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:07 pm

So far this thread has been fill with assumptions. Many of you forget the neutrality of this website and many of you also forget how to respect your fellow netters.

I myself agree with some of the comments but we must still hold back the accusations at this time, what would we gain from that? This forum is specific to aviation and I feel like we are straying away from that mentioning other contemporary events that have nothing to do with aviation. So far no one is a bad guy and if there was a bad guy what would it matter HERE?

Moderators please act upon the rights bestowed and close the thread.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Thread starter):
As expected
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 20):
Yes, as a Russian you want a "truth" to fit your agenda.
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 20):
Never underestimate the powers of delusion and denial. In reality you are doing nothing but broadcasting to the world how brainwashed you are. How can any part of this even be in doubt? Amazing

Sir you sound like a southern conservative.

Quoting SeJoWa (Reply 32):
Precisely the problem under Putin.

The last independent Russian TV broadcaster, Dozdh ["rain"], was forced to relocate to the internet. http://tvrain.ru/

Just like the Crimean Tatar TV station was forced to close, and has since relocated to Kiev.

What now passes for TV news in Russia is a daily deluge of pretty vile state propaganda.
Felipe Carrillo
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 5050
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 39):
Except when one of them did shoot down a civilian airliner, we fessed up.

If it walks like a duck...

After making a lot of false statements, including contradicting the ICAO's determination that Iran Air Flight 655 was well within Iranian airspace at the time the fatal shots were fired, saying that the aircraft was squawking on a military channel rather than a civilian channel, and defending the ships captain who had been identified as having an aggressive tendency...

In-fact, the US never apologised for the shoot down.

Doesn't look quite so good when you take all that in context.
 
bhill
Posts: 1883
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 34):
We can play that sort of game all the time however, given the number of times other members of the UNSC have vetoed things passed by all other voting members. That's what the veto is there for, to ensure any imbalance in the UNSC cannot be used against a fellow member.

Don't for a moment begin to pretend that this situation is unique.

NOT UNIQUE??? A 777 shot out of the air??? Like THAT happens evey...year! What the hell DO you consider UNIQUE??? If it would have fallen onto the Kremlin...THAT would have been UNIQUE!!
Carpe Pices
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 13):
I am very disappointed that so many members of this community base their opinion on "assumed guilt" and "guilt by association."
As a Russian, I believe that truth will be revealed.
And many people will be ashamed.

I keep waiting for DSB report.

I notice the pictures in your profile, your agenda is quite obvious, you are not waiting for anything your mind is already made up. same with all the others here defending the indefensible and ignoring all the facts.
 
factsonly
Posts: 3032
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 38):
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 31):
The Dutch governemnt's insistance on a tribunal or trial is completely naive, and I don't believe this is helpful to the victims at all.

I think you are missing the point. Nobody expected that Russia would not vetoe this. The Netherlands is simply doing this for the very strong symbolism it has, and the message it sends. And Russia is not afraid of the tribunal. Not even afraid of the "truth" coming out. They simply don´t give a flying dingo. But the Dutch gesture, rather than naive, is very harsh, and very symbolic.

If Russia had been smart, and not behaved as the current playground bully they like to behave these days, they would have agreed, and robbed the Dutch of all the symbolism of their call for a tribunal. Russians would have still stalled, delayed and lied. But at least it would have been lots more subtle and political. But, as I said, they don´t care.


The facts are that the UN Tribunal was requested by:

Malaysia has asked the United Nations Security Council to set up an international tribunal to prosecute those suspected of downing a passenger airliner last year in eastern Ukraine, but Russia dismissed the move on Thursday.

Malaysia, a member of the 15-member council, distributed a draft resolution late on Wednesday, which it hoped could be adopted later this month, diplomats said. It is a joint proposal by Malaysia, Australia, the Netherlands, Belgium and Ukraine.

"I don't see any future for" this resolution, Russian U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin said in a statement translated from Russian. "Unfortunately, it seems that this is an attempt to organize a grandiose, political show, which only damages efforts to find the guilty parties."

Source: Reuters 9 July 2015
 
bhill
Posts: 1883
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:26 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 42):
After making a lot of false statements, including contradicting the ICAO's determination that Iran Air Flight 655 was well within Iranian airspace at the time the fatal shots were fired, saying that the aircraft was squawking on a military channel rather than a civilian channel, and defending the ships captain who had been identified as having an aggressive tendency...

In-fact, the US never apologised for the shoot down.





Doesn't look quite so good when you take all that in context.


You forgot this part:

"The United States government did not formally apologize to Iran. In 1996, the United States and Iran reached a settlement at the International Court of Justice which included the statement "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident...". As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay on an ex gratia basis US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims."

Lets see if Col. Putin "allows" this to go to court....and with no evidence....
Carpe Pices
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:26 pm

Quoting pipeafcr (Reply 41):
Moderators please act upon the rights bestowed and close the thread.

Don´t you love the SD button? It´s certainly useful. Besides, who are you to speak for everyone and assume this thread needs to be closed? Please do not be so patronizing and assume for others. You may like to exercise censorship and limit and keep a discussion from being undertaken freely. That is your prerogative. You are not a moderator though, and you have no right to demand that a thread which I am finding interesting be closed, other than through the appropriate channels.

Quoting pipeafcr (Reply 41):
So far this thread has been fill with assumptions. Many of you forget the neutrality of this website and many of you also forget how to respect your fellow netters.

I only agree with the fact this thread should be moved to NonAv, the way it is evolved. But closed? Who are you to decide?

Quoting factsonly (Reply 45):
It is a joint proposal by Malaysia, Australia, the Netherlands, Belgium and Ukraine.

Key word being "The Netherlands"

[Edited 2015-07-30 08:31:04]
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 5050
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:28 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 43):
NOT UNIQUE??? A 777 shot out of the air??? Like THAT happens evey...year! What the hell DO you consider UNIQUE??? If it would have fallen onto the Kremlin...THAT would have been UNIQUE!!

Its (airliners being shot down) happened about 20 times in the past 50 years. Its not a unique situation.

Calling for a UN backed tribunal is, however, unique amongst all of those shoot downs.

[Edited 2015-07-30 08:36:55]
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 5050
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Russia Vetoes UN Tribunal On MH17

Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 46):
You forgot this part:

"The United States government did not formally apologize to Iran. In 1996, the United States and Iran reached a settlement at the International Court of Justice which included the statement "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident...". As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay on an ex gratia basis US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims."

Nope, didn't forget that part at all.

But lets highlight some parts of your quote:

Quoting bhill (Reply 46):
expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident

Not an apology.

Quoting bhill (Reply 46):
the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay on an ex gratia basis

Not an apology.

Quoting bhill (Reply 46):
In 1996, the United States and Iran reached a settlement at the International Court of Justice

The issue had to go to a *court* for the US to come to a settlement on an issue that was indisputably of their fault, and yet they refused to accept legal liability...

Quoting bhill (Reply 46):
Lets see if Col. Putin "allows" this to go to court....and with no evidence....

Putin can't stop someone lodging a case with the ICJ. Perhaps someone should have done that rather than grandstanding at the UN...

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