Quoting alfa164 (Reply 199): to host World Cup, or any other international competition.

this is just childish - nothing else. This is a World Cup and has nothing to do with politics. So you think Qatar is any better?

Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 200): this is just childish - nothing else. This is a World Cup and has nothing to do with politics

Then you should just ignore it.

World Cup has everything to do with politics - and safety for the participants and visitors. Putin's record of "protecting" anyone who disagrees with him should serve as a warning...

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 201): and safety for the participants and visitors

if there's one thing you can more than a 100% sure it's the safety - do you really think Putin would like to be embarrassed because he can't 'protect' his own games?!

I think Russia has a ligimate reason to avoid this tribunal. And the US would agree.

Assume it is found that Russia DID supply and train the Rebels with BUKs.
Assume that the Rebels DID shoot down MH17 intentionally or through imcompetance.

We then have a terrible problem. Is every country in this world to be held responsible when they sell/train third parties?
There are countless millions of US and Russian guns and such in distribution used to kill innocents every day. what difference does it make if it is a BUK or AK47 or a M16?

If Russian fingers did not launch the BUK then are we really willing to fight this battle?
Russia could take the exact same stance of the NRA in the States, guns dont kill people, people kill people. And thereby the only one responsible is the one behind the trigger.

Is it possible that this is more about protecting weapon sales revenues than aviation?

I fully believe the truth is the Rebels made an incompitent-drunk mistake using Russian equipment.
But how in heavens name are we to stop weapons sales and training to third parties when the UK, France, Russia and the US continue to sell weapons?

Let those souls rest in peace!!!

Quoting billreid (Reply 203): I fully believe the truth is the Rebels made an incompitent-drunk mistake using Russian equipment. But how in heavens name are we to stop weapons sales and training to third parties when the UK, France, Russia and the US continue to sell weapons?

How do you associate weapons sales, with the murder of innocents by shooting down a civil airliner? The BUK was supplied from somewhere FOC and with a crew.

Quoting billreid (Reply 203): Let those souls rest in peace!!!

Did you really make this comment with any thought whatsoever. Those poor souls also had families, or do they not matter in your world? There were families coming to start new lives in Malaysia, kids coming to schools, young families on holidays etc. How do their families rest in peace knowing their son, daughters, grandchildren etc were murdered. Why did the Governments in the countries of those that were murdered on MH17 push for a Tribunal. Because they know that the families want their loves ones to rest in peace and the murderer's caught and brought to justice. How would you feel if it was your family?

Quoting billreid (Reply 203): We then have a terrible problem. Is every country in this world to be held responsible when they sell/train third parties?

No, because if a car bomber is using an Asian model the factory isn't part of this thing.

Quoting billreid (Reply 203): guns dont kill people, people kill people

which is somehow true.

Quoting billreid (Reply 203): But how in heavens name are we to stop weapons sales

->

Quoting billreid (Reply 203): guns dont kill people, people kill people

[Edited 2015-08-17 02:20:12]

Quoting col (Reply 204): How do you associate weapons sales, with the murder of innocents by shooting down a civil airliner? The BUK was supplied from somewhere FOC and with a crew.

You miss my point. It is not my position on weapon sales and distribution. It is not my point that all those poor souls died. It is my point that countries sell and distribute weapons for profit that perpetuate violence and death. This is done for both profit and political reasons. This is clearly the case with the BUK's sold to the rebels. Yes a civil aircraft was shot down wrongly. But if thousands die every year from weapons sold, isnt there a need to look at the sales of weapons and the training of those who buy. This is big business.
For the Russians aviation is one of the issues, not the entire story. Please try to grasp this.

If we think for one moment that the Russians didn't know the missiles could kill innocent people then we are fooling ourselves. There are over 75 million AK47's built. Every one was designed to kill. Military sales can argue that the AK47 was ONLY designed to kill military enemies. Military sales can also argue that the BUK was ONLY designed to shoot down military targets. The difference is scope. But the seller of these weapons only sees those who died as collateral damage. For the seller, profit is more important than the lives lost. It is justified using the NRA stance that the seller of the weapon isn't the one who pulls the trigger, so they carry no responsibility.

I do not agree with this stance, but I understand the logic. It justifies continued sales and distribution of "killing machines."

Quoting col (Reply 204): Did you really make this comment with any thought whatsoever. Those poor souls also had families, or do they not matter in your world? There were families coming to start new lives in Malaysia, kids coming to schools, young families on holidays etc. How do their families rest in peace knowing their son, daughters, grandchildren etc were murdered. Why did the Governments in the countries of those that were murdered on MH17 push for a Tribunal. Because they know that the families want their loves ones to rest in peace and the murderer's caught and brought to justice. How would you feel if it was your family?

They do matter in my world.
I did not say I support the argument. I just stated that Russia supports the argument perpetuating weapon sales because of the money it generates. If we are going to argue that Russia was wrong then we need to drill to the bottom of what took place.

Where do we place the blame?
If Russia had not supplied the BUK for reasons of profit and politics. Those soles would still be alive.
If the rebels had not fired the missile those souls would be alive.

If you drill down to what needs to happen to avoid the same from happening again, you need to eliminate weapon sales to incompetent or shady organizations. The rebels were both, as well as possibly being drunk too.
My point is that Russia knows this will evolve into a question by any tribunal of weapons sales and distribution. And they do not want to go down that path. They will stand behind profit before safety. Isn't this the case for any country or company selling weapons?

Quoting billreid (Reply 206): This is clearly the case with the BUK's sold to the rebels.

No... it is not. There is no evidence that any BUK's were "sold" to the rebels; there is ample evidence that the Russians supplied both weapons and personnel to support an insurgency in Ukraine. This was no arms-length sale; it was part of an attempt by one state to undermine the government of another soverign state.

Quoting col (Reply 204): How do you associate weapons sales, with the murder of innocents by shooting down a civil airliner? The BUK was supplied from somewhere FOC and with a crew.

  

Quoting col (Reply 204): Those poor souls also had families, or do they not matter in your world? There were families coming to start new lives in Malaysia, kids coming to schools, young families on holidays etc. How do their families rest in peace knowing their son, daughters, grandchildren etc were murdered. Why did the Governments in the countries of those that were murdered on MH17 push for a Tribunal. Because they know that the families want their loves ones to rest in peace and the murderer's caught and brought to justice.

      My condolences go to all the people affected by this crime, and to your counrty as well. It has suffered along with its people.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 207): No... it is not. There is no evidence that any BUK's were "sold" to the rebels; there is ample evidence that the Russians supplied both weapons and personnel to support an insurgency in Ukraine. This was no arms-length sale; it was part of an attempt by one state to undermine the government of another soverign state.

Exactly. There was no sale. How can you sell anything to an unrecognized and non-existent entity? Sale of arms is a regulated affair. What happened was that Russia sent its troops to invade Ukrainian territory and supplied heavy weapons with the sole purpose of killing Ukrainian citizens. Even the 'leaders' of these self-proclaimed and recognized-by-noone republics are either former or actual Russian citizens. And it's not even that Russia supplied weapons to the 'rebels', Russia and the 'rebels' are one and the same thing - Ukrainians see it, the entire world see it but only brainwashed Russians do not see it...even after they receive unmarked coffins with 'vacationers' who somehow 'wandered' into Ukraine in tanks, with BUKs and full ammunition. Only a fool would believe that.